I am the first in the world

No it isn't. Ben hasn't got any counterargument, check back through the thread. All he did was bang on about the distinction between a falling observer and an observer at the event horizon, which is academic when light clocks don't tick because light doesn't move any more. RC is definitely in denial, and sol has gone quiet because he's been caught bang to rights. Oh, and Clinger is trying to blind you with erudition, using long dull posts that you don't understand followed by and therefore Farsight is wrong. Don't fall for it. This black hole stuff is simple. Just think it through for yourself instead of letting other people tell you what to think.

I've read the thread, I've read back through the thread, and it's a fairly standard crank physics example (which I enjoy, so it's not a problem). But as your entire argument rests on a misconceived thought experiment, it's about as convincing as Zeno's paradox of Achilles and the tortoise.
 
[latex]
\[
\begin{align*}
r &> 2M \\
- \pi &< \theta < \pi \\
- \pi &< \phi < \pi
\end{align*}
\]
[/latex]​

Minor nitpick: If I understand your coordinate setup correctly, I think the range for θ should be (0, π) rather than (-π, π).

(Sorry to interrupt. I'm interested to see Farsight's response...)
 
You are lying - the "counterargument" is the basic GR that you remain ignorant of.
I'm not lying. And nor am I ignorant of basic GR. And besides, since when did you are ignorant serve as a counterargument? From your previous post:

I am not in denial that in GR the speed of light varies (e.g. Variable Speed of Light in General Relativity). This is not a surprise since a constant speed of light is not a postulate of GR.
Good. So from where we're standing here on earth, what's the speed of light at the event horizon? I'll tell you the answer, it's zero.

Basic GR, Farsight: An observer falling into a black hole passes through an event horizon with no effects.
It isn't basic GR. Einstein never said anything like that. It's a corrupted cargo-cult version of GR where an observer at the black hole is given forever to make an observation using light that has stopped. Has he made an observation yet? No. Let's give him a million years. Has he made an observation yet? No. Let's give him a billion years, a trillion, and the answer is still no. It's always no. He observes what the hypothetical observer travelling at c observes, which is nothing. And you know that light has stopped because if it was shining straight up, the black hole wouldn't be black.

Another observer observing that observer falling into the black hole can never see them reach the event horizon. They will see that clock running slower and slower but they can never see the clock stop. That observer will state that the clock can never stop according to GR because it takes an infinite time for it to reach the event horizon, i.e. it never gets there.
When you and I agree that that clock hasn't ticked for a trillion years, then maybe, just maybe, we will agree that that clock, has stopped. And that the infalling observer isn't noticing any unusual effects because he isn't noticing anything any more, and never ever will.

Your "light clocks don't click" fantasy never happens in this scenario. FYI: infinite time means that whatever time you think of, there is more time to go.
Come on RC, think it through. Don't tell yourself that I'm lying or that this is just "basic GR". Think for yourself.
 
I "bang on" that distinction because it's your mistake. If you meet someone who thinks 1+1=3, you will find yourself "banging on" 1+1=2 a lot. If I meet someone who says "time stops at R=2M", I don't have much to say except "that's a coordinate-dependent statement".
OK so you have no counter-argument, let's move on. I don't say time stops, I say light stops. We know it stops because if it didn't, a light beam shone straight up would emerge from the black hole. Only then it wouldn't be a black hole. But it is. And since we use the motion of light to define our coordinates, when it doesn't move any more, coordinate-dependent statements are toast.

There are some observers who think the falling clock (light-based or otherwise, it doesn't matter) "stops" approaching R = 2M. There are other observers who think the falling clock "stops" approaching R = 3M. There are other observers who don't think the falling clock ever stops at all.
See what I said to RC above. At R=2M, observers don't think at all, because all electromagnetic processes have stopped along with light. I can't make this any simpler: observers who can't think don't see stopped clocks ticking using light that has stopped.
 
...whereas Farsight is defending his arguments by accusing me of erudition and by accusing Mashuna and others of not understanding my posts.

It's pretty simple, all right. It's mostly just high school algebra and first year college calculus (although it might involve second year calculus if Farsight went to a weak school or didn't take the version of calculus that math and physics majors take).

I've got some homework problems here for Farsight.
No thanks. I gave you a sincere and well-reasoned answer in my post #90 above, but you persist in your attempts to obscure this argument with erudition. It's a simple argument, just address it. Here's a hint: a metric is an artefact of measurement. And when light doesn't move, you can't measure anything any more.
 
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erratum for some homework problems for Farsight, part 1

Minor nitpick: If I understand your coordinate setup correctly, I think the range for θ should be (0, π) rather than (-π, π).
You're right!

(Sorry to interrupt. I'm interested to see Farsight's response...)
I appreciate your correction. I'm more interested in fixing my own mistakes than in fixing Farsight's, and only partly because there's a greater chance for success.

No thanks. I gave you a sincere and well-reasoned answer in my post #90 above, but you persist in your attempts to obscure this argument with erudition.
Your post #90 contained sincere but incorrect reasoning.

It's refreshingly comical to see you dismiss the relevance of knowledge and erudition.

It's a simple argument, just address it.
I've been addressing it, and the homework exercises continue to address it. Building on the (corrected) homework exercises in part 1, parts 2 and 3 will demolish your argument. You might not notice, because you'll be busy ignoring the homework exercises.

Many of the participants in this thread already have a pretty good idea of what parts 2 and 3 will look like, because they did their homework years ago.
 
See what I said to RC above. At R=2M, observers don't think at all, because all electromagnetic processes have stopped along with light. I can't make this any simpler: observers who can't think don't see stopped clocks ticking using light that has stopped.

Nope. The laws of physics do NOT stop at R=2M. There are observers who think that some things have stopped, and there are observers who do not.

For example, an observer falling into the black hole, starting at rest at R, will arrive at radius r when his clock reads t following the parametric equations

r = R/2 * (1+cos(eta))
t = (R/2)(R/2M)^(1/2) * (eta + sin(eta))

where eta runs from 0 to 2 pi. (This is MTW eq. 25.28, derived explicitly; is there a mistake in the derivation?) Time does NOT stop at r=2M and all of this observer's coordinates behave smoothly while crossing this boundary. He does not see "light stop"---indeed, it would violate the principles of relativity (all inertial frames are equivalent) if he did.
 
I appreciate your correction. I'm more interested in fixing my own mistakes than in fixing Farsight's, and only partly because there's a greater chance for success.

That reflects my previous personal experience, in a thread long ago. But I'm ever the optimist. :D

@Farsight: I hope that you both get as far as discussing the Lemaître coordinates; I'm sure that you'll find it enlightening to be freed from the shackles of Schwarzschild's particular way of labelling events. A major point of GR, after all, is that what actually happens cannot depend on how we label things.
 
It isn't basic GR. Einstein never said anything like that.
...usual rant...
Who cares what Einstein said?


General Relativity states that:
  • An observer falling into a black hole passes through the event horizon with no effects.
  • Another observer observing that observer falling into the black hole can never see them reach the event horizon. They will see that clock running slower and slower but they can never see the clock stop. That observer will state that the clock can never stop according to GR because it takes an infinite time for it to reach the event horizon, i.e. it never gets there.
This is basic stuff, Farsight.
I will correct another bit of ignorance from you: The reason that a black hole is black is that light cannot escape it. The reason is the same as above - a beam of light approaching the event horizon from within the horizon never gets to it and never crosses it according to an external observer (i.e. us!). This happens even if the light was "shining straight up".

ETA:
I will correct another bit of ignorance from you: "what's the speed of light at the event horizon" - undefined because light can never be at the event horizon according to an external observer.
 
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(snip)

At R=2M, observers don't think at all, because all electromagnetic processes have stopped along with light. I can't make this any simpler: observers who can't think don't see stopped clocks ticking using light that has stopped.

You claim that infalling clocks stop at r = 2M, but if you examine your reasoning you have simply shown than some abstract mathematical quantity goes to zero as r approaches 2M. You have not shown how that mathematical quantity relates to physical processes (though you have made some assertions about it).

Do you agree that the Schwarzschild "time" - the "t" in (t,r,θ,φ) - is not the time measured by any actual observers, except for stationary observers infinitely far from the black hole?

Are you familiar with the notion of "proper time"? Do you agree, or not, that proper time is what ideal physical clocks measure on their paths through spacetime (just as in SR)?

If so, do you agree that the time measured by an infalling observer is obtained by adding up all the proper time intervals for each portion of their journey?
 
This is still here?
It's right there, hilited in the part you cut out: Einstein thinks you're dead wrong about the Schwarzschild horizon, and that your reasons are mistaken.
What parts? That is so weak, Vorpal. Reprise the point, and this time spell it out instead of trying to get away with sleight of hand. The parts you cut out indeed. LOL.
"Get away with a sleight of hand." How ironic indeed! It's as if I didn't hilite the most relevant part of post #51 just to make sure you couldn't possibly miss it...

That quote by Einstein in that post shows quite clearly what he thought about the Schwarzschild horizon: that spacetime does not simply end at the horizon and that the vanishing of coefficient of dt at r=2m (ρ=0) does not imply a genuine, physical singularity. Both of these in direct contradiction of your claims. Though that might have been fine if it wasn't you who have continually insisted on Einstein's opinions on the matter, painted himself as being "with" Einstein, and his opponents as cranks for going "against" him.

Fine, I'll repeat it again:
If, however, we replace the variable r by ρ defined by the equation
[latex]$\rho² = r - 2m$[/latex]​
we obtain
[latex]\[ds^2 = -4(2m+\rho^2)d\rho^2 - (2m+\rho^2)^2(d\theta^2+\sin^2\theta d\phi^2)+\frac{\rho^2}{2m+\rho^2}dt^2\][/latex]​
This solution behaves regularly for all values of ρ. The vanishing of the coefficient of dt² i.e. (g44) for ρ = 0 results, it is true, in the consequence that the determinant g vanishes for this value; but, with the methods of writing the field equations actually adopted, this does not constitute a singularity.​
From Relativity Theory and Corpuscules essay included in many different books, such as this one.

Don't try it Vorpal. I know what the priniciple of equivalence says: the freefalling observer isn't accelerated, whilst the observer on the surface of the earth is accelerated. The observer at the event horizon is like the observer at the centre of the earth. Stationary. Only his clocks are stationary too, and his nerve impulses, and his light. And above him, there's this gravitational field.
You are making a huge conceptual mistake. I suppose it's too much to ask for you to listen to W.D.Clinger's clear exposition on coordinates, so I'll simply say this: if gravity was described by a scalar field, you might have been right. But gravity is a rank-2 tensor field: what's important is not just where you are, but how you are moving. This should have been clear from the metric, but it is especially explicit in the geodesic equation:
[latex]$\frac{d^2x^\alpha}{d\tau^2} = -\Gamma^{\alpha}_{\mu\nu}\frac{dx^\mu}{d\tau}\frac{dx^\nu}{d\tau}$[/latex]
giving the acceleration of a test particle in a gravitational field. This is not some modern invention. It's right there from the very genesis of GTR, in Einstein's first paper on the topic, and the Christoffel symbols themselves being called by Einstein the components of the gravitational field. Once one realizes that the effect of gravity depends not only on where the particle is but also how it is moving, it becomes clear that arguments like yours miss the mark completely. It's like discussing the behavior of electric charges but forgetting that magnetic fields exist (which give EM velocity dependence as well).

I've outlined a simple proof from the geodesic equation that radial freefall matches Newtonian behavior in Schwarzschild r and proper time τ in post #64. More recently, ben m posted the cycloidal relations for this problem, which are again well-known for Newtonian gravitation (but obviously with ordinary radius and universal time for Newtonian case, rather than Schwarzschild r and proper time).

What your good book says, is wrong.
I've derived the above using nothing but what is found in Einstein's original paper plus knowledge of Schwarzschild metric.

And do we agree on the wave nature of matter? Come on Vorpal, who are you going to believe? Me and my Uncle Albert and the scientific evidence and the brutal logic? Or your good book?
Uncle Albert says you are wrong in just about every possible way. If you've actually read and understood his paper, you wouldn't have these problems.
 
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It's a simple argument, just address it. Here's a hint: a metric is an artefact of measurement. And when light doesn't move, you can't measure anything any more.
Here is a simple argument for you: the theory of relativity has got its name because things differ according to perspective. First of all, from your perspective a traveller approaching an event horizon will go increasingly slow, but will never actually stop. Secondly, from the perspective of the traveller speed will be normal, but you will go increasingly slow approaching a full stop.
 
Farsight's argument is that there's a preferred frame - the one that corresponds to the standard Schwarzschild coordinates. According to Farsight, that's the only frame that can be used to describe physics (and it is indeed the case that "time stops" at the horizon in that frame).

Farsight refuses to address the fact that in other frames time doesn't stop there, and that even in perfectly flat spacetime there are exactly the same type of time-stopping horizons in certain coordinates as in the Schwarzschild coordinates at a black hole horizon. He just buries his head in the sand and repeats "Time stops at the horizon!" ad infinitum.
 
Farsight's argument is that there's a preferred frame - the one that corresponds to the standard Schwarzschild coordinates. According to Farsight, that's the only frame that can be used to describe physics [...]
A stupid question: was this not what I said, using less precise terms?

[...] (and it is indeed the case that "time stops" at the horizon in that frame).
But stuff moving towards the horizon will never actually reach it, as seen from our frame, right?
 
A stupid question: was this not what I said, using less precise terms?

Yes, it was (my post wasn't intended as a response to yours, just as a general comment on the thread).

But stuff moving towards the horizon will never actually reach it, as seen from our frame, right?

In special relativity there's a distinction between what you see (with your eyes for instance) and what you deduce. For example a spherical star moving very fast does not appear to be squashed - it always looks like a circular disk in cross section from every angle and at all times - but taking into account the finite speed of light, you deduce from that that it must be Lorentz contracted along its direction of motion.

What you'd actually see as objects fall into a black hole is that they emit light with less and less intensity and that is more and more red-shifted. After a fairly short time they simply disappear and merge with the blackness of the hole. Do we deduce from that that time stops at the horizon? There is certainly no justification for such a conclusion from that observation, nor can we deduce it from general relativity (in which there exist coordinate charts that are just as much "our frame" as any others, but that smoothly cross the horizon).

Let's say we forget for a moment what we know about the mathematics of GR and imagine doing lots of experiments that probe the black hole - throw things in, lower sensors on ropes or rockets so that they come close to the horizon but don't fall in, lower charges near it and measure its electrical conductivity, study its fluid properties (like viscosity) as it ripples in response to stuff dropped in, etc. What we would conclude is that the horizon behaves like an impermeable membrane, one with an extremely low shear viscosity and a certain measurable electrical conductivity. The membrane is at an extremely high temperature - so hot that it instantly vaporizes anything that touches it, and looks dazzlingly blueish-white to someone hanging on a rope above it - but it's also at the bottom of a very strong gravitational potential well (so it glows faint, dull red when viewed from a distance, because the radiation it emits gets redshifted as it climbs out of the well).

Because of the gravity well, from a distant observer's perspective time passes slowly on the horizon, but the membrane is a little bigger than the mathematical horizon (it's sometimes called a "stretched horizon"), and so time does pass there. Moreover, probes that are lowered close to the horizon aren't very much higher in the well than the membrane itself, so their observations of it are close to "real time".

So no - I don't agree that "stuff never actually reaches the horizon as seen from our frame" - that's a vague statement that has a kernel of truth, but in the end it's really not correct, either according to the mathematics of GR (there is no such thing as "our frame", there's no unique choice like that) or from an observational perspective.
 
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some homework problems for Farsight, part 2

In an earlier post, I stated the basic definitions that define locally Euclidean manifolds and differentiable manifolds. (The spacetime manifold is a pseudo-Riemannian manifold, locally Minkowskian rather than locally Euclidean, but the basic definitions remain the same. The difference is that the metric tensor is not positive definite, merely nondegenerate.)

In part 1, with an important correction by ctamblyn, I gave Farsight eight homework problems that would help him to understand the basic definition of a manifold. Those were the most difficult of the homework problems I will assign, and Exercise 8 was by far the most difficult of the eight.

In this part 2, the homework exercises explore some properties of Schwarzschild coordinates and the Schwarzschild metric on the manifold M that surrounds (but does not include) the event horizon (aka gravitational radius) of a black hole.

In part 3, the homework exercises will explore Lemaître coordinates and the Lemaître metric on a larger manifold M' that includes M but also includes the event horizon and extends to (but does not include) the singularity at the heart of a black hole. Those exercises will prove that, contrary to Farsight's repeated claims, the Schwarzschild metric's coordinate singularity at the gravitational radius is a mere artifact of the Schwarzschild coordinate system.

All of these homework exercises state well-known results, but I think it's useful to collect them within this thread and to give hints (in blue) that make it easy for anyone with an undergraduate education in math or the physical sciences to confirm some of the basic facts Farsight's been denying.

With the (-,+,+,+) signature convention and natural units in which c=G=1, the Schwarzschild coordinates are (t, r, θ, φ), and the Schwarzschild metric is

[latex]
\[
ds^2 = - (1 - 2M/r)dt^2 + (1 - 2M/r)^{-1} dr^2 + r^2 d\Omega^2
\]
[/latex]​

where

[latex]
\[
d \Omega^2 = d \theta^2 + \sin^2 \theta d \phi^2
\]
[/latex]​

is the usual metric on a 2-sphere in spherical coordinates and

[latex]
\[
\begin{align*}
r &> 2M \\
0 &< \theta < \pi \\
- \pi &< \phi < \pi
\end{align*}
\]
[/latex]​

(Note that the lower bound on θ was incorrect when I stated that inequality in part 1.)

We'll start out with some exercises that derive some properties of the metric dΩ2 on the unit 2-sphere.

Exercise 9. Prove: When the azimuth φ is held constant,

[latex]
\[
\frac{d \Omega^2}{d \theta^2} = 1
\]
[/latex]​

Hint: trivial algebra. φ is constant, so dφ=0.

Exercise 10. Prove: When the elevation θ is held constant,

[latex]
\[
\frac{d \Omega^2}{d \phi^2} = \sin^2 \theta
\]
[/latex]​

Hint: trivial algebra.

Exercise 11. Prove:

[latex]
\[
\lim_{\theta \rightarrow 0} \frac{d \Omega^2}{d \phi^2} =
\lim_{\theta \rightarrow \pi} \frac{d \Omega^2}{d \phi^2} = 0
\]
[/latex]​

Hint: trivial calculus.

Exercises 9 through 11 say the chart defined in exercise 2 involves spatial distortion away from the equator (where θ is pi/2, or 90 degrees) and coordinate singularities at the poles. Two of the Schwarzschild coordinates are the spherical coordinates of exercises 9 through 11, so every chart based on Schwarzschild coordinates will involve spatial distortion away from the equator and coordinate singularities at the poles.

Exercise 12. Define M as the idealized spacetime manifold that's covered by the complete set of Schwarzschild charts with coordinates restricted by the inequalities stated earlier. Prove that M cannot be covered by a single Schwarzschild chart.

Hint: Every Schwarzschild chart has coordinate singularities at the poles of its spherical coordinates.

Exercise 13. Prove that M can be covered by two Schwarzschild charts.

Hint: See exercise 7.

Exercise 14. Prove: If θ and φ are held constant, and ds=0, then

[latex]
\[
\frac{dr^2}{dt^2} = (1 - 2M/r)^2
\]
[/latex]​

Hint: trivial algebra.

Exercise 15. Prove: If θ and φ are held constant, and ds=0, then

[latex]
\[
\lim_{r \rightarrow \infty} \frac{dr^2}{dt^2} = 1
\]
[/latex]​

Hint: trivial calculus.

Exercise 16. Prove: If θ and φ are held constant, and ds=0, then

[latex]
\[
\lim_{r \rightarrow 2M} \frac{dr^2}{dt^2} = 0
\]
[/latex]​

Hint: trivial calculus.

Light follows null geodesics, for which ds=0, so exercises 14 through 16 say something about the coordinate speed of light rays that are travelling radially. To an observer almost infinitely far away, the speed of light is essentially 1, which is the standard speed of light in the natural units we're using. That's why we say a Schwarzschild chart corresponds to an observer at infinity. Exercise 16 says that, as observed by an observer at infinity, the speed of light travelling directly toward or away from a black hole converges to zero as it approaches the event horizon (where r=2M).

Farsight has been misinterpreting the result of exercise 16 to mean light and/or time actually stops at that event horizon.

Compare exercise 16 with exercise 11. Does space stop at the poles of a 2-sphere? No. Exercise 11 therefore describes nothing more than a coordinate singularity. Might exercise 16 describe nothing more than a coordinate singularity?

Yes. In part 3, we'll prove that fact using Lemaître coordinates.
 
I have a guess as to Farsight's underlying "logic", not that he's quite stated it as such. Here it is:

a) "I know how frame-transformations work in SR. You figure out this quantity gamma, which is a sort of stretching/squeezing factor, and multiply it by various quantities in the problem."

b) "In this problem, in a frame where I know how to calculate, I have found a quantity which is zero or infinity."

c) "zero times anything is zero, infinity times anything is infinity. Therefore, the frame-transformation multiply-by-gamma trick cannot undo the problem. It's completely impossible to un-singularize a singularity."

d) "Therefore, I can see through your mumbo-jumbo about metrics and frames. There's a singularity at R=2M and if your math can't see it, you must be doing it wrong, because it's there."
 
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So no - I don't agree that "stuff never actually reaches the horizon as seen from our frame" - that's a vague statement that has a kernel of truth, but in the end it's really not correct, either according to the mathematics of GR (there is no such thing as "our frame", there's no unique choice like that) or from an observational perspective.
Thank you. I think I understood it, but I can test it by asking if it is correct that we do in see stuff disappear because the actual event horizon is fuzzy, and the stuff will disappear before it has reached the point where time will stand still as seen from us?

As you see, I do not quite understand your statement that "our frame" does not exist. Is it not so that the clocks on GPS satellites are moving faster as seen from us, but on board the satellites, the clock would seem to move at the normal speed? How can this not mean that "our frame" does not exist?
 
Here is a simple argument for you: the theory of relativity has got its name because things differ according to perspective.
That's not right actually. The name Einstein first used was Invariententheorie. Things look the same regardless of your motion. But nevermind. Relativity stuck.

First of all, from your perspective a traveller approaching an event horizon will go increasingly slow, but will never actually stop.
OK, you can't say he's actually stopped for good because you'd need to wait forever to confirm it. But if his clock hasn't ticked for a year, for ten years, for a hundred years, you have to draw the line somewhere.

Secondly, from the perspective of the traveller speed will be normal, but you will go increasingly slow approaching a full stop.
That's not right I'm afraid. The traveller will see me going faster and faster. The time dilation isn't symmetric like it is in the twins "paradox". Has anybody pointed this out to you before me? If not I hope somebody will confirm this.
 
OK, you can't say he's actually stopped for good because you'd need to wait forever to confirm it. But if his clock hasn't ticked for a year, for ten years, for a hundred years, you have to draw the line somewhere.
That seems to be the point - you are drawing this imaginary line.
People who know mathematics and physics know that there is no line to draw.
The observer that sees the other clock ticking slower and slower can always wait a year, ten years, a hundred years, a thousand years, etc.

But at last you have learned a basic bit of GR - the traveler and their clock never gets to the event horizon according to the external observer. That is what infinite means. Whatever finite time you wait, there is even more time to wait. Whatever "line" you imagain, anyone can imagine a line beyond yours.
 
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some homework problems for Farsight, part 3

This is the third set of homework problems.
  1. Part 1 went over the basic definitions of manifolds and charts, using the 2-sphere as an example. (ctamblyn made an important correction to one of my inequalities.)
  2. Part 2 defined Schwarzschild charts on the spacetime manifold M outside the event horizon of an isolated black hole.
Exercises 12 and 13 established that it takes at least two Schwarzschild charts to cover all of M. Exercises 11 and 16 suggested that the Schwarzschild metric's apparent singularity at the event horizon might be a mere coordinate singularity, with no more physical significance than the coordinate singularities at the poles of a spherical coordinate system.

In this part 3, we will use Lemaître coordinates to define charts on a larger manifold M' that includes all of M plus the event horizon and a region of spacetime inside the event horizon that extends all the way down to the essential singularity at the center of the black hole. That will prove there is no real singularity at the event horizon. Another exercise will establish that particles falling radially into the black hole pass through the event horizon with no special fanfare and reach the essential singularity in finite proper time.


[size=+1]Schwarzschild coordinates and charts[/size]

With the (-,+,+,+) signature convention and natural units in which c=G=1, the Schwarzschild coordinates are (t, r, θ, φ), and the Schwarzschild metric is

[latex]
\[
ds^2 = - (1 - 2M/r)dt^2 + (1 - 2M/r)^{-1} dr^2 + r^2 d\Omega^2
\]
[/latex]​

where

[latex]
\[
d \Omega^2 = d \theta^2 + \sin^2 \theta d \phi^2
\]
[/latex]​

is the usual metric on a 2-sphere in spherical coordinates and

[latex]
\[
\begin{align*}
r &> 2M \\
0 &< \theta < \pi \\
- \pi &< \phi < \pi
\end{align*}
\]
[/latex]​


[size=+1]Lemaître coordinates and charts[/size]

The Lemaître coordinates are (τ, ρ, θ, φ), and the Lemaître metric is

[latex]
\[
ds^2 = - d \tau^2 + \frac{2M}{r} d \rho^2 + r^2 d\Omega^2
\]
[/latex]​

where dΩ2 is defined as above,

[latex]
\[
r = R(\tau, \rho) = \left[ \frac{3}{2} (\rho - \tau) \right]^{2/3} (2M)^{1/3}
\]
[/latex]​

will turn out to coincide with the r coordinate of Schwarzschild coordinates, and

[latex]
\[
\begin{align*}
\tau &< \rho \\
0 &< \theta < \pi \\
- \pi &< \phi < \pi
\end{align*}
\]
[/latex]​

Exercises 17 through 20 will prove that R(τ, ρ) can be identified with the r coordinate of a Schwarzschild chart. For now, mathematically scrupulous readers will eliminate r from the Lemaître metric above by writing R(τ, ρ) wherever r appears.

Define a Lemaître chart to be of the above form, and let M' be the manifold that's covered by the set of all Lemaître charts. It takes two Lemaître charts to cover all of M' (see exercises 12 and 13).


Exercise 17. Prove: If 0 < x < 1, then

[latex]
\[
(1/x)^{1/2} (1 - x)^{-1} - x^{1/2} (1 - x)^{-1} = (1/x)^{1/2}
\]
[/latex]​

Hint: trivial algebra.

Exercise 18. Prove: If

[latex]
\begin{align*}
d \tau &= dt + \left[ \frac{2M}{R(\tau, \rho)} \right]^{1/2}
\left[ 1 - \frac{2M}{R(\tau, \rho)} \right]^{-1} dr \\
d \rho &= dt + \left[ \frac{R(\tau, \rho)}{2M} \right]^{1/2}
\left[ 1 - \frac{2M}{R(\tau, \rho)} \right]^{-1} dr
\end{align*}
[/latex]​
then
[latex]
\[
\frac{d \rho}{dr} - \frac{d \tau}{dr} = \sqrt{ \frac{R(\tau, \rho)}{2M} }
\]
[/latex]​

Hint: trivial algebra; use exercise 17.

Exercise 19. Prove: If dτ and dρ are defined as in exercise 18, then dR/dr = 1.

Hint: basic calculus; substitute and simplify, using exercise 18 once.

Exercise 20. Prove: Given any Schwarzschild chart on M, there exists a Lemaître chart on M' whose restriction to (4/3)M < (ρ - τ) is isometric to the Schwarzschild chart.

Hint: Guess how R(τ, ρ), dτ, and dρ might be translated into Schwarzschild coordinates. To confirm your guesses, substitute them for R(τ, ρ), dτ, and dρ within the Lemaître metric, simplify, and compare your simplified result against the Schwarzschild metric.

Exercise 21. Prove: M is (isometric to) a proper submanifold of M'.

Hint: Use exercise 20 to prove the Lemaître charts cover M, and show that Lemaître charts also cover the event horizon and its interior (excluding the essential singularity at τ=ρ).

Now that we know M' contains a submanifold that's isometric to M, we might as well identify M with that submanifold. (That gets rid of the pedantic "isometric to" stuff.)

Exercise 22. Prove: If ρ, θ, and φ are held constant, then

[latex]
\[
ds^2 = - d \tau^2
\]
[/latex]​

Hint: trivial algebra/calculus.

If (dτ, dρ, dθ, dφ) are infinitesimal displacements from some point p = (τ, ρ, θ, φ), then ds2 is the square of the pseudo-distance between p and q = (τ+dτ, ρ+dρ, θ+dθ, φ+dφ), and is calculated by applying the metric tensor at p to two copies of (dτ, dρ, dθ, dφ).

ds2 is a pseudo-metric because (unlike Euclidean metrics) it can be negative. The physical significance of a negative value is that a massive particle's world line can go through both of the points p and q. According to exercise 22, the timelike separation between points p and q is exactly the same as the difference between the values of their timelike coordinate τ. That means τ measures the proper time of an observer that considers himself to be at rest with respect to the Lemaître chart (because his spatial coordinates aren't changing).

In particular, consider a point-like observer who considers himself to be at Lemaître coordinates (τ, ρ, θ, φ), is not moving in a way that would change his spatial coordinates ρ, θ, and φ, and is not experiencing any sensation of acceleration. Since his ρ coordinate is not changing, his proper time coordinate τ will eventually equal ρ, which means he will encounter the central τ=ρ singularity in finite proper time (proportional to ρ-τ). So long as (ρ-τ) > (4/3)M, he will be outside the event horizon but falling radially toward the center of the black hole. Nothing special happens to him when his proper time coordinate increases to τ = (ρ - (4/3)M) and he passes through the event horizon.

When his proper time coordinate increases to τ = ρ, however, he leaves the spacetime manifold M' and encounters the central singularity. I don't know what happens to him at that moment, or whether that even counts as a moment.

Exercise 23. Prove: If the Schwarzschild coordinates r, θ, and φ are held constant, then

[latex]
\[
ds^2 = (-1 + 2M/r) d t^2
\]
[/latex]​

Hint: trivial.

The physical significance of exercise 23 is that the Schwarzschild time coordinate does not correspond to the proper time of an observer who considers himself to be at rest with respect to the spatial coordinates of the Schwarzschild chart. What's more, an observer cannot remain at rest with respect to the spatial Schwarzschild coordinates without undergoing a sensation of acceleration away from the black hole. The magnitude of that acceleration is a monotonic function of 2M/r, so the acceleration is small when r is large. That's why the Schwarzschild time coordinate t approximates the proper time of observers who are far from the black hole. That approximation becomes worse as observers approach the event horizon, and goes off the charts at the event horizon, where Schwarzschild coordinates fail entirely due to a coordinate singularity.

To understand what happens to an observer falling into a black hole, we must switch to a chart that doesn't have the Schwarzschild coordinate singularity at the event horizon. Lemaître coordinates are suitable, as was shown by exercises 20 and 21 above. Many other coordinate systems could be used instead, such as Eddington-Finkelstein, Novikov, or Kruskal-Szekeres coordinates.

Kruska-Szekeres coordinates are especially interesting because they cover an even larger manifold M*. It's my impression that M* can be regarded as the manifold M' that's covered by Lemaître coordinates, glued to a time-reversed copy of M'.

But I'm not a physicist. I'd be interested to hear what the physicists and mathematicians have to say about M*.
 
Kruska-Szekeres coordinates are especially interesting because they cover an even larger manifold M*. It's my impression that M* can be regarded as the manifold M' that's covered by Lemaître coordinates, glued to a time-reversed copy of M'.
I don't think Kruskal-Szekeres says anything about the time orientation of the glued copy by itself, but not time-reversing it creates a conical singularity at (u,v) = (0,0), where spacetime failing to be smooth violates the equivalence principle in the sense that there is no well-defined local inertial frame there. So your interpretation is in a sense more natural, but both should be consistent with the Kruskal-Szekeres chart.

Just to be clear, here's a Penrose diagram:
Code:
 r=0                           If time up on both sides, then
C~~~~~~B           ~~~~~~      unstable wormhole between two
 \    /\          /\    /\     asymptotically flat universes.
  \  /  \r=∞     /  \  /  \    
   \/    \      /    \/    \   
   A\    /E     \    /\    /   If time dn on left, up on right,
     \  /r=∞     \  /  \  /    (so light ↙↘, then ↖↗), then
 M'   \/          \/    \/     have conical singularity.
↑ time D     M^*  ~~~~~~
↖↗ light

I think I understood it, but I can test it by asking if it is correct that we do in see stuff disappear because the actual event horizon is fuzzy, and the stuff will disappear before it has reached the point where time will stand still as seen from us?
The stretched horizon does destroy stuff relative to an external observer, but your statement is not quite correct in the sense that even completely classically (with no hot surface whatsoever), you will not see anything fall into the horizon.

I'm not sure if it's helpful, but take a look at the Penrose diagram above on the left, illustrating the causal structure of Schwarzschild spacetime. Outgoing light rays go diagonally upper-right, ingoing light rays diagonally upper-left. The black hole is the region ABC, outside of it is the region ABED. Any massive particle must stay within its local light cone, i.e., between those diagonal light rays. So once you're anywhere on AB, your future is the singularity, and any signal you send stays within the black hole. Only someone who has already crossed the horizon can see things crossing the horizon, because every light ray from AB either stays on AB (outgoing) or goes inside the hole (ingoing).

As you see, I do not quite understand your statement that "our frame" does not exist. Is it not so that the clocks on GPS satellites are moving faster as seen from us, but on board the satellites, the clock would seem to move at the normal speed? How can this not mean that "our frame" does not exist?
All our measurements are local. How we label events is arbitrary, and irrelevant to those measurements. For example, for events not connected by a causal (lightlike or timelike) signal, the choice of whether to consider them simultaneous or not is completely arbitrary. So "our frame" is not objectively defined. It's a matter of choice.

In special relativity, there is a convention of Einstein synchronizationWP to extend an observer's local inertial inertial frame to all of spacetime. But there's nothing unique about it; it's just convenient.
 
I have a guess as to Farsight's underlying "logic", not that he's quite stated it as such. Here it is:

a) "I know how frame-transformations work in SR. You figure out this quantity gamma, which is a sort of stretching/squeezing factor, and multiply it by various quantities in the problem."

b) "In this problem, in a frame where I know how to calculate, I have found a quantity which is zero or infinity."

c) "zero times anything is zero, infinity times anything is infinity. Therefore, the frame-transformation multiply-by-gamma trick cannot undo the problem. It's completely impossible to un-singularize a singularity."

d) "Therefore, I can see through your mumbo-jumbo about metrics and frames. There's a singularity at R=2M and if your math can't see it, you must be doing it wrong, because it's there."
It isn't like that, it's much simpler. My logic is this:

We all know that the coordinate speed of light varies in a non-inertial reference frame, and we know that super-accurate optical clocks lose synchronisation when separated by only a foot of vertical elevation. Simplify them to parallel-mirror light clocks and we can say that the actual speed of light varies, like so:

|----------------|
|----------------|

When we lower the bottom clock to the black-hole event horizon, then if we accept the assertion that gravitational time dilation is said to be infinite at that location according to "distant observers", then we have to assert that the actual speed of light at that location is zero, like so:

|----------------|

Hence rather than the observer not noticing anything unusual, he doesn't notice anything at all. He can't see, he can't think. His situation is akin to the hypothetical SR observer travelling at c. And a light beam directed straight upwards can't get out, not because it curves back down to the event horizon, but because the speed of light is zero.

I'm not advocating some wild speculation here, merely the original "frozen star" black hole interpretation.
 
Farsight said:
OK, you can't say he's actually stopped for good because you'd need to wait forever to confirm it. But if his clock hasn't ticked for a year, for ten years, for a hundred years, you have to draw the line somewhere.
That seems to be the point - you are drawing this imaginary line. People who know mathematics and physics know that there is no line to draw. The observer that sees the other clock ticking slower and slower can always wait a year, ten years, a hundred years, a thousand years, etc.
Some people who appear to know mathematics and physics will tell you that the infalling observer crosses the event horizon in finite "proper time", but they won't tell you that in this entire universe, all the observers who have ever fallen into a black hole haven't crossed the event horizon yet. You can wait for a year, a thousand years, a billion years, and they still haven't crossed the event horizon yet. This is the point.

But at last you have learned a basic bit of GR - the traveler and their clock never gets to the event horizon according to the external observer.
I already knew this.

That is what infinite means. Whatever finite time you wait, there is even more time to wait. Whatever "line" you imagine, anyone can imagine a line beyond yours.
They're imagining a line beyond eternity, and employing a coordinate system that does a hop skip and a jump over the end of time. See how the top of the left-hand chart below is omitted? The curve on the right of this chart goes vertical, and has no upper bound. That's the end of time. The light cone hasn't gotten past it yet, and never ever will, so everything to the left of the vertical dashed line is in never-never land. Sadly some people who appear to know mathematics and physics will duck and squirm and say anything other than admitting this to you because they fear that fallibility will erode their status, and the status of people like Hawking and Susskind.

realisticBHkruskalsmall.jpg
 
I should interject here I suppose:

Farsight's argument is that there's a preferred frame - the one that corresponds to the standard Schwarzschild coordinates. According to Farsight, that's the only frame that can be used to describe physics (and it is indeed the case that "time stops" at the horizon in that frame).
Not really. It's more like stepping back from any particular reference frame to see the bigger picture. Don't forget that a reference frame is an artefact of measurement. It's not as if you can point up to the night sky and say "look, there's a reference frame". See above, we can point to two beams of light at different elevations and say one's going slower than the other, hence the optical clocks lose synchronisation. Then we take the lower beam to a location where it doesn't move and clocks don't tick, whence there can be no measurment, and thus no reference frame at all.

Farsight refuses to address the fact that in other frames time doesn't stop there, and that even in perfectly flat spacetime there are exactly the same type of time-stopping horizons in certain coordinates as in the Schwarzschild coordinates at a black hole horizon. He just buries his head in the sand and repeats "Time stops at the horizon!" ad infinitum.
I don't do this. I talk about light moving through space, not time moving in frames. It's not as if you can open up a clock and see time flowing through it. Be it a mechanical clock, a quartz wristwatch, or an atomic clock, all clocks "clock up" some kind of regular cyclic motion, and if the clock stops, that means the motion has stopped. So when we're dealing with light clocks, light has stopped. And if light has stopped, so has the observer, because all electromagnetic propagation stops, including the nerve impulses in his brain. So the observer can't think, light doesn't move towards his eye, hence he doesn't see his stopped clock carry on ticking. Instead he's like the hypothetical SR observer travelling at c. He doesn't see anything at all. Forever.
 
RC, with all respect, that's not the point at all. Farsight's mistake is much worse, and much more fundamental, than mishandling an asymptote.
It's no mistake, I'm the one getting down to the fundamentals here. And let's not forget: you can't offer any counter-argument.

Vorpal: I'll get back to you.

Clinger: Give it a rest. Deal with the argument.
 
Thank you. I think I understood it, but I can test it by asking if it is correct that we do in see stuff disappear because the actual event horizon is fuzzy, and the stuff will disappear before it has reached the point where time will stand still as seen from us? mathematical event horizon.

Yes, although I prefer the above wording.

As you see, I do not quite understand your statement that "our frame" does not exist. Is it not so that the clocks on GPS satellites are moving faster as seen from us, but on board the satellites, the clock would seem to move at the normal speed? How can this not mean that "our frame" does not exist?

In special relativity, one considers inertial frames. The property of being inertial is very restrictive, and it's useful because the laws of physics, written in any inertial frame, look exactly the same. You can usefully talk about "your" frame in special relativity, because (up to translations of the origin and rotations of the coordinate axis) there is a unique inertial frame in which you are at rest.

Unfortunately, all of that goes out the window in general relativity. In a curved spacetime there are no inertial frames at all, and that means that there is a huge continuous infinity of frames in which you are at rest, but which differ sharply from each other far away from you. A nice example are the Schwarzschild coordinates, in which "time stops" at the horizon, and Kruskal-Szekeres coordinates, which extend smoothly through and beyond the horizon. Both coordinates can perfectly well be regarded as "the" frame of an observer far from the hole.

Physically, the right way to think about this is that we should only expect physics to predict the results of definite experiments. All coordinate systems should give identical predictions for the same physical experiment, so we're free to use any we like. In special relativity we get used to using intertial coordinates, but then again we often use spherical or polar coordinates (which are not inertial) when it's convenient, since it's obvious that doing so doesn't change anything physical. It's the same in GR - you can use any coordinates you like, they all give identical predictions, and that's the fundamental insight Einstein built the theory on.
 
some homework problems for Farsight, epilogue 1

I don't think Kruskal-Szekeres says anything about the time orientation of the glued copy by itself, but not time-reversing it creates a conical singularity at (u,v) = (0,0), where spacetime failing to be smooth violates the equivalence principle in the sense that there is no well-defined local inertial frame there. So your interpretation is in a sense more natural, but both should be consistent with the Kruskal-Szekeres chart.
Thank you.

Some people who appear to know mathematics and physics will tell you that the infalling observer crosses the event horizon in finite "proper time", but they won't tell you that in this entire universe, all the observers who have ever fallen into a black hole haven't crossed the event horizon yet.
What Farsight isn't telling you, and appears not even to know, is that relativity has no well-defined concept of "yet". Your concept of "yet", like your concept of time itself, is observer-dependent; it depends on the chart (aka coordinate system/frame/patch) you choose to use. That's why the theory of relativity is called the theory of relativity.

Your favorite chart is not the manifold. There are infinitely many charts, all of them equally correct. Depending on your purpose, some of those charts will be more convenient or more useful than others. Farsight insists upon using the Schwarzschild family of charts, which are completely useless if you want to understand what happens when things cross the event horizon. Schwarzschild charts literally don't go there.

They're imagining a line beyond eternity, and employing a coordinate system that does a hop skip and a jump over the end of time.
That's the sort of dismissive but vague language we often see from people who haven't done their homework.

Had Farsight done his homework, he'd know that Lemaître charts are perfectly smooth, with no discontinuities. Lemaître charts cover every part of spacetime that's covered by Farsight's beloved Schwarzschild charts, and then some.

Farsight is saying the spacetime manifold ends where his Schwarzschild chart ends. He's wrong. His chart is not the manifold.

Sadly some people who appear to know mathematics and physics will duck and squirm and say anything other than admitting this to you because they fear that fallibility will erode their status, and the status of people like Hawking and Susskind.
Sounds as though Farsight is projecting.

I have no status here that I could lose. I'm not a physicist, and have never pretended to be a physicist. So far as I know, I'm the only person who cares whether I understand relativity. Furthermore, I know I don't understand relativity very well, and I know that quite a few of the contributors to this thread understand relativity better than I do. I came up with the homework exercises and worked through them myself because I wanted to improve my own understanding of the manifolds M, M', and M*.

Farsight isn't a physicist either, but he's told us his real name and told us about a book he's written that has "relativity" in its title. If any participant in this thread is motivated by "fear that fallibility will erode their status", it would be Farsight.

Clinger: Give it a rest. Deal with the argument.
I've dealt with it. You haven't.
 
The stretched horizon does destroy stuff relative to an external observer, but your statement is not quite correct in the sense that even completely classically (with no hot surface whatsoever), you will not see anything fall into the horizon.
OK, thank you.

I'm not sure if it's helpful, but take a look at the Penrose diagram above on the left, illustrating the causal structure of Schwarzschild spacetime. Outgoing light rays go diagonally upper-right, ingoing light rays diagonally upper-left. The black hole is the region ABC, outside of it is the region ABED. Any massive particle must stay within its local light cone, i.e., between those diagonal light rays. So once you're anywhere on AB, your future is the singularity, and any signal you send stays within the black hole. Only someone who has already crossed the horizon can see things crossing the horizon, because every light ray from AB either stays on AB (outgoing) or goes inside the hole (ingoing).
Although I have never seen a Penrose diagram before, it seems to say what I thought, although more clearly.
 
In special relativity, one considers inertial frames. The property of being inertial is very restrictive, and it's useful because the laws of physics, written in any inertial frame, look exactly the same. You can usefully talk about "your" frame in special relativity, because (up to translations of the origin and rotations of the coordinate axis) there is a unique inertial frame in which you are at rest.
Thank you. I think that yours and Vorpals descriptions make sense to me.

But my question about GPS satellites makes me wonder about something else: As seen from my GPS unit the time signals from the satellites is going slower (I thought it was faster, but in another thread I saw somebody claim they actually go slower). Suppose there is a clock on board that was synchronised with our clocks at launch. This clock would then drift behind our time. Suppose that the satellite could be retrieved and taken back to Earth. Would the satellite clock still be behind our clocks, or would it now be synchronous with our clocks like before?
 
But my question about GPS satellites makes me wonder about something else: As seen from my GPS unit the time signals from the satellites is going slower (I thought it was faster, but in another thread I saw somebody claim they actually go slower). Suppose there is a clock on board that was synchronised with our clocks at launch. This clock would then drift behind our time. Suppose that the satellite could be retrieved and taken back to Earth. Would the satellite clock still be behind our clocks, or would it now be synchronous with our clocks like before?

There are two effects - the speed of the satellite relative to a point on the surface makes its clocks run slow, but the fact that it's higher up in the gravitational potential makes them run fast. I think for GPS the second effect wins and they run fast.

In any case, to answer your question - the satellite clock would still be ahead of our clocks. That experiment has been done (many times) and the results are in accord with the predictions of relativity. Time dilation is a real, physical effect in exactly that sense - it affects the results of physical experiments. What's surprising at first is that you can calculate those same results in any frame.
 
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In any case, to answer your question - the satellite clock would still be behind our clocks. That experiment has been done (many times) and the results are in accord with the predictions of relativity. Time dilation is a real, physical effect in exactly that sense - it affects the results of physical experiments. What's surprising at first is that you can calculate those same results in any frame.
So, just like we see the clock of an astronaut go slow, an astronaut would also see our clocks go fast, not slow? I would have thought that the astronaut would feel himself to be stationary while the Earth spinned around under him very fast, and that would make Earth clocks go slow as seen from space.

Yes, it is surprising that this can be calculated to give the same result in any frame !
 
So, just like we see the clock of an astronaut go slow, an astronaut would also see our clocks go fast, not slow?

To be clear, let's suppose we're talking about two spaceships, A and B, in outer space (no gravity) and in relative motion. In the rest frame of A, B's clocks run slow, and in the rest frame of B, A's clocks run slow. Even so, all calculations of the results of physical experiments will agree.

I would have thought that the astronaut would feel himself to be stationary while the Earth spinned around under him very fast, and that would make Earth clocks go slow as seen from space.

With gravity and/or rotation involved things get more complex. Any rest frame of the satellite is going to be pretty complicated - the earth and the rest of the galaxy is whirling around it very fast, but there are also very large "fictitious" forces (like centrifugal force) that affect time dilation (in the same way "ordinary" gravitational fields do).

Yes, it is surprising that this can be calculated to give the same result in any frame !

Fortunately you can prove mathematically that it's true, which is much easier than trying to check calculations using complicated rotating frames.
 
Steenk: if you took two identical clocks and gave one to an astronaut, then fired him up into space, his clock is running faster than ours. We see this, and he sees that our clocks are running slower than his. When he comes back, his clock is ahead of our clocks, not behind.

Sol: have a look at the picture below. It's by Phil Fraundorf, associate professor at the University of Missouri in St Louis, see http://www.umsl.edu/~fraundorfp/.

Orbit_times.png


See the red line? Clocks go slower because of the speed of the satellite. But also see the green line, clocks go faster because of the elevation. The latter is the bigger effect. The blue line shows the net.
 
Steenk: if you took two identical clocks and gave one to an astronaut, then fired him up into space, his clock is running faster than ours. We see this, and he sees that our clocks are running slower than his. When he comes back, his clock is ahead of our clocks, not behind.

Not necessarily. It depends on how fast we fire him.

Sol: have a look at the picture below. It's by Phil Fraundorf, associate professor at the University of Missouri in St Louis, see http://www.umsl.edu/~fraundorfp/.

[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Orbit_times.png[/qimg]

See the red line? Clocks go slower because of the speed of the satellite. But also see the green line, clocks go faster because of the elevation. The latter is the bigger effect. The blue line shows the net.

Yes, that looks right. I didn't remember where the crossover was (as you can see from that plot, for a very low orbit the net effect would be a slowing), but I checked another source and it is indeed the case that GPS clocks run fast.
 
then we have to assert that the actual speed of light at that location is zero, like so:

No we don't. If "speed of light is zero" were a real property of that location, it would be seen as such by anyone at that location. It's not.
 
No we don't. If "speed of light is zero" were a real property of that location, it would be seen as such by anyone at that location. It's not.

Exactly.

Suppose someone falls into a black hole, holding a "light clock" (an arrangement of two mirrors held a fixed distance apart by a rigid piece of metal, with a light pulse bouncing back and forth between the mirrors).

Q1: Assuming our victim is inside a sealed container and cannot see out, will she notice anything when she crosses the horizon? Specifically, measured with respect to the time scale of her own biological processes (or any other clock or process inside the container), will the time it takes for the light in the light clock to bounce back and forth change?

A1: Nope - not if the black hole is large enough that tidal forces are small at the horizon, at least.

Q2: After having passed through the horizon, our intrepid investigator opens a porthole. Can she still see stars etc. that are outside the hole? Can she receive signals sent by her friend in a spaceship hovering above the horizon?

A2: Yes to both. They might be distorted, but they are still visible. That would be quite hard to understand if time really stopped at the horizon...

The truly fascinating this is how this is compatible with the description of the horizon as a hot membrane that I just gave above. Exercise for the reader: figure out how and why that's possible.
 
What Farsight isn't telling you, and appears not even to know, is that relativity has no well-defined concept of "yet". Your concept of "yet", like your concept of time itself, is observer-dependent; it depends on the chart (aka coordinate system/frame/patch) you choose to use. That's why the theory of relativity is called the theory of relativity.

Good catch. Farsight's saying "nothing has fallen into the black hole yet", and pretending it's an absolute statement, is basically the same mistake as saying "the back of the ladder hasn't entered the barn yet" in the famous thought-experiment.
 
You can wait for a year, a thousand years, a billion years, and they still haven't crossed the event horizon yet. This is the point.
How dumb- that is what I have been saying. Not only do they never cross the event horizon, they never even reach it :jaw-dropp!
This is the point about you making that mistake in your previous posts. What happens at the event horizon does not matter because they never reach it according to the external observer. Their clock is never observed to stop.
 
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