Yet another nail in the Apollo Hoax coffin

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Craig4 said:
So? No one cares what you think of the diagrams. Prove they are fraudulent.
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I think they are real. But I believe that they are crude because it's not NASA but the NRO who has the original drawings of the Saturn V rocket, and it has been classified information (and perhaps still is even today).
 
Anders Lindman said:
I think they are real. But I believe that they are crude because it's not NASA but the NRO who has the original drawings of the Saturn V rocket, and it has been classified information (and perhaps still is even today).
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Except it's not, it's readily available knowledge, but you would probably have to extend your research beyond Google to find it.
 
Anders Lindman said:
That's an ignorant video (or disinfo). The Apollo program was just a public front for the secret NRO who used Saturn V rockets to put satellites and possibly even weapons systems into space. Try to find detailed specifications of the Saturn V rocket. The most detailed information I have seen about the Saturn V dimensions are some crude diagrams.
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No.
 
Anders Lindman said:
Compared to detailed schematics ...
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You realize those are systems-level block diagrams, not "detailed schematics?" Have you read the Saturn V Flight Manual?

As I said, find me someone willing to digitize about 1,000,000 drawings and documents up to J-size and larger, and you can have them in clickable form. If you are too lazy to look beyond clickables, then you're going to have to be content with clickables.
 
This whole "where are the drawings?" bugs me. I mean...if I had the most complete drawings ever made for a 1928 Theremin I'd be unable to build it; because the components specified were made in the Soviet Union in the 20's and are no longer widely available. Although the diagrams would presumably give the desired values and tolerances, the real components would have a measurable effect on the sound of the instrument.

In fact, newly made Theremins are the end result of both archeological engineering (trying to figure out what the originals did and how), and brand-new engineering that meets up with current parts stocks, desired musical effect, electrical and safety standards, RoHS, and so on.

The same would be true if there were a centralized collection of all paperwork used to construct the Saturn V. It would be incomplete -- because it was embedded in and references the experience and practices of the time. And it would be un-buildable as it stands -- not today, with different standards and practices.

And the same thing could be said of a 2012 Toyota Camry rolling off the assembly line as we speak.
 
nomuse said:
This whole "where are the drawings?" bugs me.
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It should. Most laymen have absolutely no idea what documentation exists for the design of a substantial piece of aerospace technology.

The same would be true if there were a centralized collection of all paperwork used to construct the Saturn V.
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Which there isn't. This is another ignorance perpetuated by hoax theorists.

First, designs are proprietary. The manufacturer retains them in private archive and isn't required to disclose them publicly even when the customer is the government. This is to prevent a competitor from gaining access to trade secrets by means of a FOIA request. Nevertheless most if not all companies are willing to make their archives available for researchers.

Second, the design documents for any one component are held by the subcontractor for the component. Only a certain subset is required to be forwarded to the prime contractor as part of construction. That's why ATK has the drawings for the LES, even though someone else was the prime contractor for the whole vehicle. They inherited all that from Thiokol when they purchased the company. Similarly Pratt & Whitney is now the custodian of most of the design documents for the F-1 engine, having inherited it from Rocketdyne. Boeing has the original documents for the S-1C. IBM has the design documents for the IU.

All the drawings and documents that were required in the contract to be supplied to NASA were microfilmed and sent to the National Archives. The Archives has confirmed that they have them. However, the overwhelming majority of NA materials are not online.

Third, no one outside the industry has any indication how much documentation is originally available. Just the documents required to be supplied to NASA by the Saturn V contractors (not all that was produced and retained by the contractor) fills about two standard railway boxcars for each delivered flight article. Grumman produced about 4,000 drawings per week while designing only the lunar module.

It should also disturb you because Anders is doing his standard goalpost-shifting. Originally all he wanted was the dimensions.

Anders Lindman said:
That's an ignorant video (or disinfo). The Apollo program was just a public front for the secret NRO who used Saturn V rockets to put satellites and possibly even weapons systems into space. Try to find detailed specifications of the Saturn V rocket. The most detailed information I have seen about the Saturn V dimensions are some crude diagrams.
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He is carefully ignoring the fact that detailed dimensioned drawings were provided. Instead he's trying now to up the ante and insinuating that if he can't be allowed to point and click to any arbitrary drawing of any arbitrary component at any arbitrary level of detail for the Saturn V, it must be some state secret.

What about it, Anders? Can you point and click your way to a detailed schematic for the fuse pin on the No. 1 engine of a Boeing 727-200? Is that also a state secret? How about a dimensioned drawing for the valve cowlings in a 1977 Ferrari 308 GTS?
 
JayUtah said:
You ignored the point of my post. Third time telling you that I have seen original Saturn V drawings in possession of the original manufacturer. Please reconcile that with your claims and stop evading the point.
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I thought you had understood by now that people can claim anything on Internet forums.
 
JayUtah said:
Why do you take information only in URL form?.
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It's because conspiracy theorists tend to be deathly afraid of libraries. And that's because libraries contain those dreaded things called books which upon their pages have printed information which reduces their conspiracy theories to tatters. So rather than be confronted by information that might destroy their beliefs, they simply avoid the library and those horrible, horrible books.
 
JayUtah said:
Anders Lindman said:
Try to find detailed specifications of the Saturn V rocket.
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I have.
Anders Lindman said:
The most detailed information I have seen about the Saturn V dimensions are some crude diagrams.
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That's because your research skills are non-existent.
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No. That's because AL is not simply a lazy troll but a flat-out liar as well.

He made this same lazy, ignorant, and silly claim over on the "JFK, NASA, and the NRO" thread. I provided explicit dimensional and weight data published over eight years of the Saturn V program life, and called his attention to it. He simply pretended it never happened - after asking for it - and kept on repeating the same schtick despite repeated reminders that he had been provided the data.

Again: AL is a liar and a troll. Don't feed the troll.
 
Anders Lindman said:
Exactly. Was the Saturn V rocket in reality used for military purposes?
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The original concept for the Saturn began life as a heavy lift vehicle for atomic weaponry, but that was quickly shelved as warhead weight reduced and lift capability improved. The concept was revived when the lunar mission came about.
 
JayUtah said:
He is carefully ignoring the fact that detailed dimensioned drawings were provided. Instead he's trying now to up the ante and insinuating that if he can't be allowed to point and click to any arbitrary drawing of any arbitrary component at any arbitrary level of detail for the Saturn V, it must be some state secret.

What about it, Anders? Can you point and click your way to a detailed schematic for the fuse pin on the No. 1 engine of a Boeing 727-200? Is that also a state secret? How about a dimensioned drawing for the valve cowlings in a 1977 Ferrari 308 GTS?
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:talk008:
 
theprestige said:
To be fair, isn't it perfectly cromulent to point out that Jay is making an unsubstantiated claim?
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No, because Jay is a highly respected authority on moon-hoax conspiracism and the Apollo program. In case you're unfamiliar, he's appeared in that capacity on Mythbusters and The National Geographic Channel, plus several times in the national print media. He's also an aerospace engineer. Besides me, you'll find at least half a dozen members here who've read thousands of his posts on BAUT and/or Apollohoax (PhantomWolf, Captain Swoop, sts60, R.A.F., Cl1mh4224rd, Obviousman, and twinstead, and those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head) who can attest to these facts. There's zero chance that Jay could be mistaken or exaggerating about having seen such plans, and every reason to believe that if he says he has, he has.

If this sounds like an appeal to authority argument, it is, but in this case it's a legitimate appeal to authority.
 
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So what about it there Anders? Were your errors corrected in another thread? You know they were what that makes you right?
 
Anders Lindman said:
That's one of those diagrams I meant! Look how crude it is. And among the references there will not be much more detailed diagrams if I remember correctly.
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The Wikipedia page I linked has several photographs, but no technical drawings at all. Your proclaiming, "That's one of those diagrams", directly demonstrates that you are unwilling to use any of the resources we have offered. Therefore, you are intellectually dishonest, to put it kindly.

For those out there that actually have an interest in such things, you might enjoy browsing the "Saturn V Press Kit" (1967-68). It's presented as a series of PDFs with considerable detail about each rocket stage, info about the various design and test facilities, and many great photos of the constructions.
 
JayUtah said:
Do you realize that no two Saturn V flight articles were exactly alike?
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For Anderson' benefit, a lot of things aren't exactly alike. I should know the number, but in production, Boeing is allowed several inches variance in the overall length of the 747, IIRC.

In the railroad business, two 80 car trains made up of 89' flat cars made by the same manufacturer, plus the same number of identical model locomotives will vary by a few feet. It happens...
 
Anders Lindman said:
That's an ignorant video (or disinfo).
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No, it's what we residents of Earth describe as 'humour', and the purpose of ths particular piece of humour is to mock ridiculous and unsubstantiated notions by pointing out at a basic level what the inconsistencies in them are.

Are you really really trying to claim that Mitchell & Webb are part of the conspiracy and produced that sketch to maintain the hoax? There's a whole new sketch right there...
 
JayUtah said:
This is the third time you have called me a liar when I have countered your obnoxious claims with facts from my professional experience.

Prove that I am lying, or apologize.
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I did not say that you were a liar. I said that anyone can claim all sorts of things on an Internet forum.

Ok, let's say you are correct, then at what company/agency did you see those drawings firsthand?
 
threadworm said:
No, it's what we residents of Earth describe as 'humour', and the purpose of ths particular piece of humour is to mock ridiculous and unsubstantiated notions by pointing out at a basic level what the inconsistencies in them are.

Are you really really trying to claim that Mitchell & Webb are part of the conspiracy and produced that sketch to maintain the hoax? There's a whole new sketch right there...
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The video is trying to make the connection that if the Apollo missions really were a hoax then would they really have bothered creating real Saturn V rockets? That's an ignorant claim since the Saturn V rockets could have been a part of NROs' secret military space program.
 
Anders Lindman said:
The video is trying to make the connection that if the Apollo missions really were a hoax then would they really have bothered creating real Saturn V rockets? That's an ignorant claim since the Saturn V rockets could have been a part of NROs' secret military space program.
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Did you actually read my post? You obviously haven't heard of Mitchell & Webb. You should see the fun they have with the same sketch format about 9/11, Kennedy and Princess Diana. Try and develop a sense of humour.

"Could have" is not the same as "was". Simply stating something as a fact does not make it a fact.

You do not need a multi-stage rocket to launch a satellite.
 
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