Deeper than primes - Continuation

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THank you for answering the question I put forward to Doron when I joined this thread.

So, his math is wrong and it serves no practical benefit what so ever? That's pretty much what I thought, coming in to the thread.


Well, here's the thing. Mathematics has its roots in every day practicality, but it really is an intellectual invention. Inventions, plural, I should say. We have good old Euclidean geometry coexisting just fine with several non-Euclidean versions. The former seems suitable for most everyday purposes, but that doesn't make it right and the others wrong.

In Doron's case, there seem to be some underlying ideas that run counter to the more conventional approaches. Doron has a concept for infinity that seems to run anti-mainstream, for example. By itself, that is not a problem. Mathematics is rich enough to embrace many, many inventions all contradictory of each other. If his ideas could be expressed in some rigorous way, then it is conceivable an alternate branch of Mathematics could be forged. Who knows.

Unfortunately for Doron, he has failed fantastically at expressing any of his ideas in anything approaching a rigorous way. He blames everyone else on the planet for not understanding his undefined, ill-expressed notions. Also, rather than working to see how is ideas could be developed into something new, Doron wants to dispute the rest of Mathematics as if it were all a monolith and he's found a fundamental flaw.

Doron even goes so far as trying to disprove definitions. So, yes, Doron's math is catastrophically and completely wrong, but not because of where he starts, but rather where he tries to go.

ETA: I forgot to mention that Doron works things from the wrong direction, too. If he doesn't like a result, he proceeds backwards from there rather than recognizing the result as a consequence of basic axioms and such.
 
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punshhh said:
I don't want to put words into Mr Shadmi's mouth or miss-represent him. So I am only putting my interpretation on the table.

It appears that Mr Shadmi is merely pointing out the peculiar result of attempting to apply infinity to a timespace. Perhaps he has got something, maybe not, I don't know as I'm not a mathematician.

I am familiar with the ideas he is putting forward and in the appropriate context they are very usefull.

Yes, but so can be anything taken out of it's original context. I am a fan of MacGyver as well. And I like Christo (using wrapping paper for other purposes).

But Punshhh, if I can use a brick as a paperweight, it does not mean that all of a sudden all principles of masonry might be invalid or even suspect.
And that is, if you read carefully, what Mr. Shadmi is trying to convey.

(I could be nasty and call them strawmen or just points so he does not have to give proof his ideas have any worth, but I will not)
 
Yes, but so can be anything taken out of it's original context. I am a fan of MacGyver as well. And I like Christo (using wrapping paper for other purposes).

But Punshhh, if I can use a brick as a paperweight, it does not mean that all of a sudden all principles of masonry might be invalid or even suspect.
And that is, if you read carefully, what Mr. Shadmi is trying to convey.

Yes perhaps a restructuring of the axioms of mathematics is not required right now. Even from Shadmi's position, although his vision of a subtle mathematics might make it seem an obvious next step.

I had similar sentiments in the heady days of spiritual aspiration.

I am sympathetic with Shadmi's breakthrough in conscious thought into a subtle awareness in which an existing infinity and unity become subjectively manifest.

He like myself is a foot soldier in the effort to bring the philosophy of the east to the west. I wish him every success and hope he can find a group who will work with him. For this I would suggest is the next step.
 
Yes perhaps a restructuring of the axioms of mathematics is not required right now.

That sounds a bit like Star Trek speech, but, let's roll with it.

It depends on what your end goal is and then, and only then, can you decide what tools you need.

Meddling with the tools, because you want to meddle with the tools is called 'having a hobby'.


Even from Shadmi's position, although his vision of a subtle mathematics might make it seem an obvious next step.

Well, some people can't figure out how to get a nail into a wall with only a pair of pliers, so they tell it to become a hammer....


I had similar sentiments in the heady days of spiritual aspiration.

I am sympathetic with Shadmi's breakthrough in conscious thought into a subtle awareness in which an existing infinity and unity become subjectively manifest.

To quote the great poet Chuck D.: "It might feel good, it might sound a li'll sumfin', but ◊◊◊◊ the game if it ain't sayin' nuffin"

If you can not convey information to someone, then basically you have failed with any unity you would like to get.

Also, it seems, that awareness comes at the cost of not being able to communicate anymore.

He like myself is a foot soldier in the effort to bring the philosophy of the east to the west.

Why would you think that is a war? Or even a struggle? If it has merit then it is inevitable that that philosophy will win ground.

I wish him every success and hope he can find a group who will work with him. For this I would suggest is the next step.

I think that is a bit too late... in the previous thread there are links to just about any forum on the planet where he failed to give one ioata of credibility to his ramblings.

You are, I may have missed some in my absence, his 3rd or 4th sidekick and you all act and talk the same. Maybe you all are the same because of that unity thingy. :)

But don't let it stop you believing what you do. I won't stop knowing what I do. :)
 
That sounds a bit like Star Trek speech, but, let's roll with it.
I am a little unconventional, here at least.

It depends on what your end goal is and then, and only then, can you decide what tools you need.
Yes what is our end goal?

Meddling with the tools, because you want to meddle with the tools is called 'having a hobby'.
Motive is everything in tool making.

Well, some people can't figure out how to get a nail into a wall with only a pair of pliers, so they tell it to become a hammer....
Yes but how does one hammer in an infinitely long nail?

To quote the great poet Chuck D.: "It might feel good, it might sound a li'll sumfin', but ◊◊◊◊ the game if it ain't sayin' nuffin"
As always.

For Shadmi it seems to say something.

I here what it says.

For me elsewhere(another context) it is already saying a lot.

If you can not convey information to someone, then basically you have failed with any unity you would like to get.
With the one you are communicating with perhaps. But not with oneself or others holding similar views.

Also, it seems, that awareness comes at the cost of not being able to communicate anymore.
On occasion. Communication is an art.

Why would you think that is a war? Or even a struggle? If it has merit then it is inevitable that that philosophy will win ground.
I don't, the suggestion of war is what I encountered on joining this forum.

Notwithstanding there have been many struggles in achieving this goal.

I think that is a bit too late... in the previous thread there are links to just about any forum on the planet where he failed to give one ioata of credibility to his ramblings.
Credibility is a social phenomena, many creative types have a love/hate relationship with such groupings.

You are, I may have missed some in my absence, his 3rd or 4th sidekick and you all act and talk the same. Maybe you all are the same because of that unity thingy. :)
Now there's a thing are you familiar with unity?

But don't let it stop you believing what you do. I won't stop knowing what I do. :)
I hold no beliefs and no one has moved me one iota in what I know in the year I have been posting and yet I am regarded as one of the biggest woo woos (as Dafydd will tell you).
 
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I am a little unconventional, here at least.
I am quite unconventional, that is kind of my profession.

Yes what is our end goal?
Don't know... Doron hasn't shared it with anyone. We seem of the conviction it is filling up the JREF's harddisks.

Motive is everything in tool making.
Motive is everything when doing anything.

Yes but how does one hammer in an infinitely long nail?
By using a tractionfeeder. A bit like they unclog your sewerpipes.

As always.

For Shadmi it seems to say something.

I here what it says.

For me elsewhere(another context) it is already saying a lot.
Hmmm, that sounds like just about every Doron sidekick in this thread....

But it does not get this thread anywhere, does it?


With the one you are communicating with perhaps. But not with oneself or others holding similar views.
Then you are also telling Doron to give up over here and find his peace somewhere else?

On occasion. Communication is an art.
Calling something an art is usually done by people who do not understand the craftsmanship.

I don't, the suggestion of war is what I encountered on joining this forum.
No, war is with opposing parties having opposing goals (though maybe the same motives).
What you encounter here is the same goal (i.e. understanding) but different views as to how to communicate and which constitutes a methodology that is able to build upon itself.

You should practice in becoming a less violent person.


Notwithstanding there have been many struggles in achieving this goal.
Struggles are necessary in nature to avoid cul-de-sac's in both spiritual and rational paths.

Credibility is a social phenomena, many creative types have a love/hate relationship with such groupings.
Well, if his goal, of which any and all of us are unsure, is to convince the mathematicians in this world, it can not be avoided that to them he must present credible practices.

If however, his goal is to schmouze the ilk of you, then he is succeeding marvellously.

As I said, we still do not know what the goal is.

Now there's a thing are you familiar with unity?
Besides that I have spent a goodly portion of my life in the 'spiritual area' of India where the 'unity' was 'preached' until my ears bled, I have spent time with almost any major religion I encountered.

Taling about Unity is a way of not becoming afraid of death. That is all.
Some need a god, others an afterlife, and some need a Cosmic All or unity.

I hold no beliefs and no one has moved me one iota in what I know in the year I have been posting and yet I am regarded as one of the biggest woo woos (as Dafydd will tell you).

You have demonstrated that you believe that you hear what Doron is saying. This must be a belief, as you two have had no communications to show otherwise.

Acting al balmy and suave does not make you 'one with everything'. It just makes you act balmy and suave. No more, no less.
 
If Punshhh knew more maths he would see through Doron. Punshhh is also being disingenuous about his beliefs, he believes in something called the event horizon of the formless and also that there are elves and pixies in foliage. He has stated other beliefs in other threads.
 
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By using a tractionfeeder. A bit like they unclog your sewerpipes.
Tractionfeeder, is that another word for pliers?

Looks like wer'e quantum entangled already.

Actually my trade/craft is banging in nails, I'm a cabinetmaker. I do occasionally bang a nail in with a pair of pliers when I have no hammer and pull them out with them when I have no claw hammer. Also I am attaching another soil pipe to my sewer today, I am accomplished at unblocking them too.

Hmmm, that sounds like just about every Doron sidekick in this thread....
Does it, re-read the paragraph above this in this post and tell me that again.

But it does not get this thread anywhere, does it?
Quite.


Then you are also telling Doron to give up over here and find his peace somewhere else ?
Yes, this is not a good place to change peoples views. But does seem to be a good place to hone your own.


Calling something an art is usually done by people who do not understand the craftsmanship.
As a craftsman I regard my journey through an understanding and experience of art to be equally as challenging as the spiritual path. Indeed I expect them to cross at some point in the future.


No, war is with opposing parties having opposing goals (though maybe the same motives).
What you encounter here is the same goal (i.e. understanding) but different views as to how to communicate and which constitutes a methodology that is able to build upon itself.
It is adversarial, which I am not used to. Not everyone here has the same goal.

You should practice in becoming a less violent person.
I am a very passive person off the page.

Struggles are necessary in nature to avoid cul-de-sac's in both spiritual and rational paths.
Quite.


Well, if his goal, of which any and all of us are unsure, is to convince the mathematicians in this world, it can not be avoided that to them he must present credible practices.
Yes, this may be the stumbling block.

If however, his goal is to schmouze the ilk of you, then he is succeeding marvellously.
I enjoy his style, but am rarely swayed.

As I said, we still do not know what the goal is.
I was asking about the goal of humanity.


Besides that I have spent a goodly portion of my life in the 'spiritual area' of India where the 'unity' was 'preached' until my ears bled, I have spent time with almost any major religion I encountered.
Yes I have fond memories of my times in the Himalaya.

Taling about Unity is a way of not becoming afraid of death. That is all.
Some need a god, others an afterlife, and some need a Cosmic All or unity.
I have no needs, unity is a touch stone of mystical practice.

You have demonstrated that you believe that you hear what Doron is saying. This must be a belief, as you two have had no communications to show otherwise.
No, I am of the opinion that I understand points made by Doron.

I choose not to use the word belief, it has an imprecise and ambiguous usage. I happen to hold no beliefs in a God, if that is the way the word is being used.

Acting al balmy and suave does not make you 'one with everything'. It just makes you act balmy and suave. No more, no less.
My style is my style an artist would be a fool not to embrace it.
 
punshhh said:
Tractionfeeder, is that another word for pliers?
Communication is a craft. I am quite proficient at it.
Tractionfeeder. Feeds by traction...

punshhh said:
Looks like wer'e quantum entangled already.
Apply to CERN, they still have to use extremely expensive equipment to make that kind of observations.

punshhh said:
Actually my trade/craft is banging in nails, I'm a cabinetmaker. I do occasionally bang a nail in with a pair of pliers when I have no hammer and pull them out with them when I have no claw hammer. Also I am attaching another soil pipe to my sewer today, I am accomplished at unblocking them too.
Great! Look up tractionfeeders for pipes and wires. It will help you no end!

punshhh said:
Does it, re-read the paragraph above this in this post and tell me that again.
Yup, it does. All of them claimed independence of sorts and all of them were supporting Doron in the fuzz-factor of comms.


punshhh said:
Yes, this is not a good place to change peoples views. But does seem to be a good place to hone your own.
For the latter you are right, but you would be surprised as to how often people concede a point. My own ratio, when not having a hobby-time with threads like this, should be somewhat around one-third of the time that I do change my point of view.
Go 'lurk' around some of the other threads for a bit.

punshhh said:
As a craftsman I regard my journey through an understanding and experience of art to be equally as challenging as the spiritual path. Indeed I expect them to cross at some point in the future.
That sounds right out of 'Illusions' by Richard Bach.

punshhh said:
It is adversarial, which I am not used to. Not everyone here has the same goal.
Nature achieves it's goals, if any, by parallelism, not by unity. Diversity is what makes existence from the very ground up. Unity can only be achieved when there is absolutely nothing. Everything outside of that has at least 1 discerning property.

punshhh said:
I am a very passive person off the page.
But very wordy at that.

punshhh said:
I was asking about the goal of humanity.
Humanity does not exist except as a concept, like infinity.

punshhh said:
Yes I have fond memories of my times in the Himalaya.
They are plural. But besides that... I found it full of pretty nonsense. Nice people, but waaay too much suffering for my taste... mostly because people do not really care for each other, outside of what they mean in a 'spiritual' way.

punshhh said:
I have no needs, unity is a touch stone of mystical practice.
Yes you have needs. At least for some pliers....

punshhh said:
No, I am of the opinion that I understand points made by Doron.
Just like any of Doron's sidekicks.

punshhh said:
I choose not to use the word belief, it has an imprecise and ambiguous usage. I happen to hold no beliefs in a God, if that is the way the word is being used.
No, belief means letting your chemical processes get in the way of an algorithmic approach to knowledge. Often people make the mistake of saying 'I just know so', when they mean 'I just believe so'.

punshhh said:
My style is my style an artist would be a fool not to embrace it.
Your style is absolutely your style. But it is nothing more than a style; veneer to something that does not want to be seen.

Now, we can go on and on in this manner, but it does not help this thread any further.

So, let's end the talks about you and maybe you can contribute something to, maybe in the least, change my mind that there is something to Doron's conceptions?
 
Yup, it does.
I doubt it.
All of them claimed independence of sorts and all of them were supporting Doron in the fuzz-factor of comms.
Neither of which I am doing.

That sounds right out of 'Illusions' by Richard Bach.
It is not any kind of illusion.
Humanity does not exist except as a concept, like infinity.
Something exists.

Just like any of Doron's sidekicks
. Out of curiosity do you remember the names of any of these side kicks?


No, belief means letting your chemical processes get in the way of an algorithmic approach to knowledge. Often people make the mistake of saying 'I just know so', when they mean 'I just believe so'.
Belief is defined adequately in dictionaries, I hold no beliefs.


Your style is absolutely your style. But it is nothing more than a style; veneer to something that does not want to be seen.
In humility there is nothing hiding, you must be mistaking me for something else.

Now, we can go on and on in this manner, but it does not help this thread any further.

So, let's end the talks about you and maybe you can contribute something to, maybe in the least, change my mind that there is something to Doron's conceptions?
You brought it up.


Ok lets have a look at the OP.

There are a couple of points I would like to make beforehand;

I came late to the thread and may have missed something, in which case I may not be aware of some of the claims made.

I may not be able to communicate something to you through such a hand fisted medium for various reasons. I would appreciate an attempt at understanding and I will return the courtesy. The adversarial debating method employed on this forum is cumbersome and lacks finesse when addressing refined subjective notions.


You raise an interesting distinction regarding unity

"Unity can only be achieved when there is absolutely nothing. Everything outside of that has at least 1 discerning property."
Well we know that absolutely nothing does not exist. There are not many things we can know, but this we do know, because something exists. If something exists there can be no absolutely nothing.

But this does not rule out one thing existing, if one thing exists then there is unity.

Perhaps the divide between our opposite conclusions here is that you are considering logical subjective models of unity. Whereas I am considering what we can deduce about existence from what we can experience.

As a mystic I employ subjective interpretations of reality as far as they can go, but they are only one tool in a tool box, a hammer say, whereas I seek to utilise all tools available in my various approaches to what exists. Indeed to be a tool maker becomes essential after a certain point(a pair of pliers makes quite a good traction feeder when pulling out nails).


Now my initial opinion of what Doron is doing is trying to communicate something about a discovery of unity he has found. Perhaps he realises now how difficult this can be, unless the setting is right.
 
Since most people here, other than doron, understood the point that I was trying to make, and that I have been quoted several times, I will attempt to make my example easier for doron to understand.

Original quote:
We can, and do in fact, use points to make up a line. How you may ask? Draw me a standard graph using graph paper. Show me points of X and Y that will make the following statement correct: X + Y = 0. After marking all the points that you can on your paper, you should have a collection of points that has endpoints in the upper left and the lower right quadrants of the paper. I am assuming that you have stayed within the boundaries of the paper. Guess what, you've just created a line segment. Now if your paper was of infinite size, your line segment could turn into a line, but you would still have points covering your line.

We can, and do in fact, use points to make up a line. How you may ask? Get a piece of graph paper, and draw a Cartesian coordinate plane using the Cartesian coordinate systemWP. (The first picture on the left is a good example). A suggested size of graph paper would be either A4 or 8.5" x 11.0". Please label the x-axis and y-axis. Use any scale you wish to mark the scale on the plane. Please mark points on the plane that complete the set of all points whose coordinates x and y satisfy the Cartesian equation x + y = 0. After marking all the points that complete the equation, that fit inside the scale of your graph, and that are on your paper, you should notice that your collection of points have endpoints in the upper left and the lower right quadrants of the paper. Guess what, you've just created a line segment! Now if our paper was of infinite size, your line segment could turn into a line, but you would still have points covering your line.
 
I doubt it.
Because you have not verified it. Doubting is easy, proving is not.

Neither of which I am doing.
That may be a matter of opinion.

It is not any kind of illusion.
Oddly, the book is about spiritual enlightenment and calls 'facts' rather the illusions that people must cling to so as not to get lost in their muddled world.
I rather think you will like it actually.
It was one of the great hits of seekers of enlightenment in the 1970's and 1980's.

Something exists.
Obviously.

. Out of curiosity do you remember the names of any of these side kicks?
Click my name, then click my profile then check the first lines of the posts I made, or search for realpaladin sidekick in the forum search, as I called them that more than once.

Belief is defined adequately in dictionaries, I hold no beliefs.
So, how do you know there is such a thing as spirituality and that this is not an offset of any of the chemical processes that govern your brain?
Or said in another way, how do you know that the feeling you have on what you 'hear' Doron saying is what he means to say?

In humility there is nothing hiding, you must be mistaking me for something else.
I seldom make mistakes. Your style of writing shows the urge to be taken for a humble, balanced person, but exactly that urge to be taken as such is evidence to the contrary.

You brought it up.
So I did. Can you oblige me as easily as not to defend any of the above mentioned points and humbly let my opinion be mine?

Ok lets have a look at the OP.
Yes, let's.

There are a couple of points I would like to make beforehand;
Good idea, always have some bailouts at hand.

I came late to the thread and may have missed something, in which case I may not be aware of some of the claims made.
So you believe you can make a good assessment on 'Doron has something here' without reading up. No problem with me.

I may not be able to communicate something to you through such a hand fisted medium for various reasons.
I would not call the written language hamfisted; it has accelerated understanding and peace more than any other method.
It has spread the concepts (true or false or inbetween) of 'spirituality' and 'science' through more cultures than any other method.

I would appreciate an attempt at understanding and I will return the courtesy.
And so you will have, but since it is you who are joining I find the burden of courtesy of getting some background on you, and this courtesy you have not yet extended.


The adversarial debating method employed on this forum is cumbersome and lacks finesse when addressing refined subjective notions.
The reason this thread is so long may have given you a clue of that and so I will excuse you for not seeing the finer points already made.
What you 'think' you are seeing are merely manifestations of frustration of not getting anywhere with Mr. Shadmi who, if you would have taken the time and made the effort to read (or skim at the very least) through this thread and it's predecessor, is constantly revising information, contradicting himself and even blatantly misrepresenting things.

The feeling of adversity I put entirely at your end, as you decided to 'side' with Doron, and this may just be because you do not like the methodology or thoroughness with which people here are trying to get somewhere.

Please do re-read your own posts and I think you will see quite quickly where you have appeared to take a side and hence started any adversarial behaviour.

There are many examples of threads on this board that show a non-adversarial, disharmonious co-operation that actually gets things accomplished.

You raise an interesting distinction regarding unity
On purpose, as we will see in a bit.

Well we know that absolutely nothing does not exist. There are not many things we can know, but this we do know, because something exists. If something exists there can be no absolutely nothing.
This does not have to be entirely true. The thought experiment (and even real-life experiments that corroborate this) on 'Schroedinger's Cat' shows that two states that absolutely rule each other out can co-exist.
In fact, you mentioned it yourself; quantum entanglement is one of the effects of this.

But this does not rule out one thing existing, if one thing exists then there is unity.
Not necessarily, one thing does not preclude many properties; and when more than 1 property exists, there is no unity.

Perhaps the divide between our opposite conclusions here is that you are considering logical subjective models of unity. Whereas I am considering what we can deduce about existence from what we can experience.
Well, as I mentioned earlier, we experienced from existence that:
- Two opposing states can co-exist at the same time
- From nothing can come something
- Light is schizophrenic
etc...

And the big lesson from all those experiences is that we can only learn by extending our senses with systems that we can communicate, replicate and verify.
Almost all other attempts have been proven wrong at some time or another, but the information of that has not yet disseminated enough so that there are still a lot of people that try to do it by using old philosophies that had no knowledge of methods to go beyond their own senses.
They thought they did, they said they did, but they did not.

As a mystic I employ subjective interpretations of reality as far as they can go, but they are only one tool in a tool box, a hammer say, whereas I seek to utilise all tools available in my various approaches to what exists.
But being selective in tools will rather get you were you want to be, not where you should be.
How come you do not take up reading and studying science as some extra tools?
In the very least I took up just about any spiritual direction that came along my way and actively seeked out some others.


Indeed to be a tool maker becomes essential after a certain point(a pair of pliers makes quite a good traction feeder when pulling out nails).
So, I say, get cracking, there's a world of tools out there you never have laid your eyes on!

Now my initial opinion of what Doron is doing is trying to communicate something about a discovery of unity he has found.
Please read the first posts of the first thread. This 'discovery' has been changed over the years into one where he gets the most people taking his side.
It started out as something completely different and opposing anything you just said.


Perhaps he realises now how difficult this can be, unless the setting is right.
Don't look at any of us; we kept telling him the science setting is not the right one and that he probably would have more luck in a spiritual setting.

But he went on about how his 'invention' would revolutionize maths, how Microsoft would give him millions for it... I gave him the email address of Steve Balmer and pointed him to Israels Microsoft Research labs.

Your reply now more or less speaks against you. You said you did not like the adversarial method, but still took a side without knowing what he is on about.

You said that you hold no beliefs, but still you talk about being subjective and having opinions.

Now, unless you can add to the thread instead of contributing just some balmy bickering, I would ask you to just 'lurk' or 'observe' for a while whilst Doron makes his point.
 
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Now my initial opinion of what Doron is doing is trying to communicate something about a discovery of unity he has found. Perhaps he realises now how difficult this can be, unless the setting is right.

Haven't you been following the thread? He has found nothing. If you are of the opinion that he has, perhaps you could explain what his discovery is.
 
punshhh said:
unfortunately I don't have sufficient mathematical understanding to join in this debate.

Fortunately you do have sufficient actual mathematical understanding (based on developed awareness) to join in this debate.


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http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8022305&postcount=422 is ignored.


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As for Unity, it is the invariant thing that is the source of variant opposites like NOthing and YESthing.

If one's mind is aware of thing during NOthing and YESthing variant opposites, then one's mind is actually at Unity awareness, which is the actual fulfillment of communication.

A clear signature of a mind that does not fulfill actual communication is its inability to get variant opposites like NOthing and YESthing, simply because it is not aware of them right from the invariant thing.

Current computation is an agent of a mind that is trapped at the dichotomous level of NOthing|YESthing (SOMEthing) variant opposites, and as a result it can't get thing as their invariant source.


By actually be at Unity awareness, ones mind enables to get the following:

1) NOthing between X and Y is actually two symbols of the same thing.

2) YESthing between X and Y is actually two symbols of different things, where the YESthing is a gap that can't completely be covered by any amount of collection of X,Y things.

3) Given any amount of collection of X,Y things, it does not have the power of the continuum of the YESthing gap among them.

4) (1),(2) and (3) are known only by Unity awareness.

5) Mathematics of the past 3000 years is not based on Unity awareness, and can't achieve actual communication, where one of the clear signatures of actual communication is the ability to unify Ethics with Logic under a one comprehensive framework, which is not less than the Technology of the Consciousness.

Organic Mathematics is an afford to develop the Technology of the Consciousness, and actual Unity awareness among minds is its goal (without it no actual communication is achieved).

Without actual communication among minds, they will not survive further manipulations of nature's forces.
 
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As for Unity, it is the invariant thing that is the source of variant opposites like NOthing and YESthing.

If one's mind is aware of thing during NOthing and YESthing variant opposites, then one's mind is actually at Unity awareness, which is the actual fulfillment of communication.

- If you are aware of something, then you perceive, by whatever means. If you perceive you must have a location outside that which you perceive (even inside a sphere you are outside of the wall you look at). Therefore; if you are aware of something you can not have unity but must have at least duality.

A clear signature of a mind that does not fulfill actual communication is its inability to get variant opposites like NOthing and YESthing, simply because it is not aware of them right from the invariant thing.

Prove me that this is a clear signature. I.e. show that it follows that if someone is not aware right from the invariant thing that this is due to inability and not due to lack of effort or lack of will.

Current computation is an agent of a mind that is trapped at the dichotomous level of NOthing|YESthing (SOMEthing) variant opposites, and as a result it can't get thing as their invariant source.

A good friend of mine works with quantum computing (we covered that fun waaay earlier in the first thread, remember?) and she works with all states (not merely a boolean yes/no) at the same time.
So what does that say about your knowledge of the current state of technology?


By actually be at Unity awareness, ones mind enables to get the following:

1) NOthing between X and Y is actually two symbols of the same thing.

2) YESthing between X and Y is actually two symbols of different things, where the YESthing is a gap that can't completely be covered by any amount of collection of X,Y things.

You have yet to show why this is so. I already said in the first thread AND in the second thread that saying that 'an apple is not an orange' does not prove that 'the orange is an orange'.

You try to prove your stuff by focussing on what other work does not fit in with yours.

So again. Prove it. Show it. Demonstrate it. Sing a song about it.

3) Given any amount of collection of X,Y things, it does not have the power of the continuum of the YESthing gap among them.

The word continuum means 'unbroken' so the words continuum and gap preclude each other.
Find different words to explain yourself please.

4) (1),(2) and (3) are known only by Unity awareness.
Yes, 'there's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza...'

And Punshhh had the audacity to say that all the other stuff 'falls back on itself'. I am laughing out loud now.

5) Mathematics of the past 3000 years is not based on Unity awareness, and can't achieve actual communication, where one of the clear signatures of actual communication is the ability to unify Ethics with Logic under a one comprehensive framework, which is not less than the Technology of the Consciousness.
Your stuff is an orange, so don't try to prove it by saying the apples aren't the orange.

I am long past looking at any remarks you make about any math or other established science.

I try to keep looking at what you, on your own merit, produce.

Organic Mathematics is an afford to develop the Technology of the Consciousness, and actual Unity awareness among minds is its goal (without it no actual communication is achieved).

Without actual communication among minds, they will not survive further manipulations of nature's forces.

Good, show that the last sentence is true.

So where we are at is:

- There are some properties of Doronetics that have a circular reference. That makes it simple; only one of them has to be proven outside of that circular reference and the causality of the 4 points needs to be proven.

- A claim is made (I am happy I live to see the day) about what Doronetics will achieve; manipulations of nature's forces.
Since we can then interact, we can measure. So even if the rest of us do not understand Doronetics, we can finally see it influencing the world.

But there is also a new item:

- A claim that without Doronetics we can not survive manipulating nature's forces.
That is a bold claim but it offers us some handholds:
+ What does 'not survive' mean? Do we all die? Do we become apathetic? What?
+ If we know the answer to the previous question, then the next question is: what is Doronetics doing differently?

Again, since it is clearly stated that there is interaction with the non-unity minds, we can measure any interaction or observe any change (maybe over generations).

This should be good.
 
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if you are aware of something you can not have unity but must have at least duality.
Being aware of SOMEthing (YESthing) is an awareness at least at the level of Dichotomy, where in this case the opposite of SOMEthing is NOthing.

YESthing and NOthing are expressed dichotomies of thing ,which is the Unity among them, and actually enables their comparison, in the fist place.

A good friend of mine works with quantum computing (we covered that fun waaay earlier in the first thread, remember?) and she works with all states (not merely a boolean yes/no) at the same time.

It does not matter how many YESthings (SOMEthings) are taken simultaneously, still they are the expressed level of Unity.

The rest of your post, realpaladin, is derived from your ignorance about Unity (your awareness is trapped at the level of at least Dichotomy).

Prove me that this is a clear signature.
Only you, by directly being aware of Unity, can prove it to yourself (the state of Unity is the source of all possible thoughts, which is itself not a thought (please look at the analogy of Unity awareness in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7672352&postcount=16583)).
 
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Little 10 Toes said:
Nope, it's everything.

EDIT: are you done editing your post for the third or fourth time doronshadmi? I have things to do..

Yeah... I usually copy his post to a notepad and reply to that. I have no use for his redacts. For someone claiming to have a unified mind he sure is hopping on multiple thoughts.
 
doronshadmi said:
The rest of your post, realpaladin, is derived from your ignorance about Unity (your awareness is trapped at the level of at least Dichotomy).

Conveniently skipping the part where you are called upon to mention exactly *what* your imaginary contrivance might accomplish, hmm?

Read back, it was *you* who claimed it would do some stuff with the forces of nature. It was *you* who claimed that the non-unified would be failing there.

Only *you* manouvred yourself into this 'put up or shut up' moment Doron.

Explain what Doronetics can do or else concede that we all had a few years of fun in wandering from 'deeper than primes' to 'a Frankensteinish version of Buddhism'.

There is nothing you can post, bar the explanation of what your unity might accomplish, that would not make you seem an utter, utter loser.

To quote a popular game show: "You are the weakest link, goodbye!"
 
Conveniently skipping the part where you are called upon to mention exactly *what* your imaginary contrivance might accomplish, hmm?

Read back, it was *you* who claimed it would do some stuff with the forces of nature. It was *you* who claimed that the non-unified would be failing there.

Only *you* manouvred yourself into this 'put up or shut up' moment Doron.

Explain what Doronetics can do or else concede that we all had a few years of fun in wandering from 'deeper than primes' to 'a Frankensteinish version of Buddhism'.

There is nothing you can post, bar the explanation of what your unity might accomplish, that would not make you seem an utter, utter loser.

To quote a popular game show: "You are the weakest link, goodbye!"

Prove me that this is a clear signature.
Only you, by directly being aware of Unity, can prove it to yourself (the state of Unity is the source of all possible thoughts, which is itself not a thought (please look at the analogy of Unity awareness in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7672352&postcount=16583)).
 
Your stuff is an orange, so don't try to prove it by saying the apples aren't the orange.
My stuff is a one tree where both oranges and apples complement each other.

Once again it is shown that your dichotomous awareness can't get the Unity of infinitely complex organism.
 
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What forces of nature can your unity manipulate that science can not?
Forces of nature are manifestations of Unity (including one's awareness), so in order to harmonically manipulate them, the manipulator must have Unity awareness. The development of The Technology of The Consciousness is exactly the development of Science, simply because real Science is not less than the harmoniums association among the developed, the developer and the used tools for development.
The word continuum means 'unbroken' so the words continuum and gap preclude each other.
Wrong, the gap is actually the "host" (mathematical or physical) space, which enables "hosted" spaces or subspaces to be gathered into one organism and still leave a "room" for further complexity's development.

Once again, the "host" (mathematical or physical) space exists even if no "hosted" collection of lower spaces or subspaces exist on it.

Conveniently skipping the part where you are called upon to mention exactly *what* your imaginary contrivance might accomplish, hmm?
Harmony among "hosted" (mathematical or physical) spaces.

we can measure any interaction or observe any change (maybe over generations).
There is no "we" without "host"\"hosted" association.

+ What does 'not survive' mean? Do we all die? Do we become apathetic? What?
We shell not survive as ever developed responsible communicators between Simplicity and Complexity.

It is already shown in http://www.scribd.com/doc/16669828/EtikaE

and

5842425568_4e4e18f7ee_b.jpg
 
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realpaladin said:
there are still a lot of people that try to do it by using old philosophies that had no knowledge of methods to go beyond their own senses.
They thought they did, they said they did, but they did not.
Actual extension of senses is really achieved by extending awareness into Unity awareness.

Without actually be at Unity awareness, one's awareness is stuck at the level of manifestation and uses external tools in order to translate other manifestations into the narrow range of the stuck awareness.

For example: Gamma rays that are translated into the range of your ability to see them, definitely do not cause your senses to be developed beyond your current sensual range.

And so is the case about any given sense, it is really being developed only by being aware of the unified source of all possible manifestations.

realpaladin, you still have no clue about the development of Unity awareness, which can actually be done by using practice that directly develops your awareness, without any need of some external tool (external tool actually translates manifestations in order to be fitted into your non-developed awareness).
 
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Because you have not verified it. Doubting is easy, proving is not.


That may be a matter of opinion.


Oddly, the book is about spiritual enlightenment and calls 'facts' rather the illusions that people must cling to so as not to get lost in their muddled world.
I rather think you will like it actually.
It was one of the great hits of seekers of enlightenment in the 1970's and 1980's.


Obviously.


Click my name, then click my profile then check the first lines of the posts I made, or search for realpaladin sidekick in the forum search, as I called them that more than once.


So, how do you know there is such a thing as spirituality and that this is not an offset of any of the chemical processes that govern your brain?
Or said in another way, how do you know that the feeling you have on what you 'hear' Doron saying is what he means to say?


I seldom make mistakes. Your style of writing shows the urge to be taken for a humble, balanced person, but exactly that urge to be taken as such is evidence to the contrary.


So I did. Can you oblige me as easily as not to defend any of the above mentioned points and humbly let my opinion be mine?


Yes, let's.


Good idea, always have some bailouts at hand.


So you believe you can make a good assessment on 'Doron has something here' without reading up. No problem with me.


I would not call the written language hamfisted; it has accelerated understanding and peace more than any other method.
It has spread the concepts (true or false or inbetween) of 'spirituality' and 'science' through more cultures than any other method.


And so you will have, but since it is you who are joining I find the burden of courtesy of getting some background on you, and this courtesy you have not yet extended.



The reason this thread is so long may have given you a clue of that and so I will excuse you for not seeing the finer points already made.
What you 'think' you are seeing are merely manifestations of frustration of not getting anywhere with Mr. Shadmi who, if you would have taken the time and made the effort to read (or skim at the very least) through this thread and it's predecessor, is constantly revising information, contradicting himself and even blatantly misrepresenting things.

The feeling of adversity I put entirely at your end, as you decided to 'side' with Doron, and this may just be because you do not like the methodology or thoroughness with which people here are trying to get somewhere.

Please do re-read your own posts and I think you will see quite quickly where you have appeared to take a side and hence started any adversarial behaviour.

There are many examples of threads on this board that show a non-adversarial, disharmonious co-operation that actually gets things accomplished.


On purpose, as we will see in a bit.
I appreciate what you have said above. I suggest that we focus on the issue at hand for now.

Rather like my lack of knowledge of the beyond primes thread, your lack of knowledge of my position could be improved by some reading of my post history. Such catch up reading is time consuming and lacks the engagement of current debate, I would not expect you to wade through it and I doubt I will feel inclined to wade through the beyond Primes thread.

This does not have to be entirely true. The thought experiment (and even real-life experiments that corroborate this) on 'Schroedinger's Cat' shows that two states that absolutely rule each other out can co-exist.
In fact, you mentioned it yourself; quantum entanglement is one of the effects of this.
Yes, this concept is usefull and makes sense of how something may have come into existence out of nothing.


Not necessarily, one thing does not preclude many properties; and when more than 1 property exists, there is no unity.
Not necessarily, we cannot be certain of what form "one thing" takes or what existence as we perceive it is.

Well, as I mentioned earlier, we experienced from existence that:
- Two opposing states can co-exist at the same time
- From nothing can come something
- Light is schizophrenic
etc...I will address this tomorrow, I am short of time today.

And the big lesson from all those experiences is that we can only learn by extending our senses with systems that we can communicate, replicate and verify.
Almost all other attempts have been proven wrong at some time or another, but the information of that has not yet disseminated enough so that there are still a lot of people that try to do it by using old philosophies that had no knowledge of methods to go beyond their own senses.
They thought they did, they said they did, but they did not.


But being selective in tools will rather get you were you want to be, not where you should be.
How come you do not take up reading and studying science as some extra tools?
In the very least I took up just about any spiritual direction that came along my way and actively seeked out some others.

I will address this tomorrow, I am short of time today.

So, I say, get cracking, there's a world of tools out there you never have laid your eyes on!


Please read the first posts of the first thread. This 'discovery' has been changed over the years into one where he gets the most people taking his side.
It started out as something completely different and opposing anything you just said.



Don't look at any of us; we kept telling him the science setting is not the right one and that he probably would have more luck in a spiritual setting.

But he went on about how his 'invention' would revolutionize maths, how Microsoft would give him millions for it... I gave him the email address of Steve Balmer and pointed him to Israels Microsoft Research labs.

Your reply now more or less speaks against you. You said you did not like the adversarial method, but still took a side without knowing what he is on about
. I am a late comer and observer here, I appreciate what you are saying here, but will not get involved.

You said that you hold no beliefs, but still you talk about being subjective and having opinions.
Yes, belief is not required to do this.

Now, unless you can add to the thread instead of contributing just some balmy bickering, I would ask you to just 'lurk' or 'observe' for a while whilst Doron makes his point.
I am happy to if you would prefer. Dorons point may not be put across successfully again.
 
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An example of direct method of awareness' development is used here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/meditationchannel?blend=21&ob=5#p/u/56/xYFOECodaKo

http://www.youtube.com/user/meditationchannel?blend=21&ob=5#p/u/54/_0rbfSaRwCU

http://www.youtube.com/user/meditationchannel?blend=21&ob=5#p/u/13/t_dJkjND5AQ

Organic Mathematics ( http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7788100&postcount=206 ) uses the same direct principles in order to develop one's awareness. In on order to be effective, one's mind has to use its full range of verbal_symbolic AND visual_spatial skills.
 
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Not necessarily, we cannot be certain of what form "one thing" takes or what existence as we perceive it is.

Read carefully, I just explained that your causality failed when saying that if one thing exists we must have unity.

I did not say unity *could* not exist. Merely pointed out that your conclusion was a foregone one.

Also, remember that you can not speak of form or any other property than existence. If unity exists, it does only that; exist, and nought else.

Yes, belief is not required to do this.
I beg to differ; having an opinion is based upon conjectures and conjectures are made of the belief that something will hold true so that no time needs to be wasted on that specific part of a hypothesis.
If it did not rely on a belief (not a belief-system) then it would rely on a fact.

I am happy to if you would prefer. Dorons point may not be put across successfully again.
See if you can follow his Wittgenstein aquarel this time :)
 
Doron, you are unable to prove anything at all. You can not set up a coherent philosophic system and when I Google the terms you invented I either get half-ars** cherry-picked copy/pasting from other philosophers/mathematicians or I get forum threads where people were saying just about the same things as we are saying here to you.

I let a psychiatrist read your posts and your reactions... well, you are scoring high on the possibility of having some personality disorder.
Or are having a midlife crisis. she tells me...

But anyway, my guess is that you were mocked at being bad at pilpul and now you need to make it up in some way.

It does not matter a single iota if you are right or not. It does not matter a single iota if you are the only one understanding it.

If you behave as you do now, nobody will understand, nobody will even want to understand and in the end you die alone and all of the energy you put into this has gone wasted.

Nobody will ever herald you as the inventor of anything and nobody will ever remember your name.

The moment you stop posting online... you are history.

If I and the rest of the people here would stop answering, you would graze the net trying to find a new forum where you can start all over again, just so you have the misguided idea that someone cares.

But nobody does.

All that happens here is that some people, like your sidekicks, or people like Punshhh, become adverserial just because they have an odd idea of 'underdog struggle' and need to show compassion.

Get serious about this stuff Doron, or don't get it at all.
 
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