Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

Status
Not open for further replies.
so this issue about the dust-free sand is not about whether they went to the moon.
You are the one who made this claim:
rocky/DavidC said:
It's easy to make sand dust free by sifting and washing it.
Don't try to run away from it now.
It's about Jay Windley's credibility the credibility of the Clavius site and its forum.
I don't care about your unhealthy obsession with Jay. I am a professional space engineer, and I say not only are you wrong; you don't even begin to grasp what you don't know about the subject.

You claimed that I don't believe what I am saying. Once again, I insist that you provide direct evidence for that claim, or retract it and apologize.
 
So the Chinese Spacewalk was a fake as well?

What else apart from Apollo and the Chinese Spacewalk is fake?
 
Anyone who actually watches all the footage...

Will see clear signs of weightlessness throughout the transmission.

I see you chose not to comment on your self contradiction. Figures.

I stopped when he discredited himself by trying to obfuscate the clear proof that the Chinese spacewalk was faked in a water tank. Here is a different thread where he looked especially silly.

He spanked you on that as well.

http://www.politicalforum.com/moon-...missions-were-faked-studio-6.html#post4161022

http://www.politicalforum.com/moon-...missions-were-faked-studio-7.html#post4161059

Reading his posts, the man who made the Chinese faked it video, is actually an Apollo believer. I suggest that your credibilty is in question, not his.

I anticipate a few posts disappearing into the Abandon all Hope forum. Anyone who thinks the Chinese faked their spacewalk is bonkers.:jaw-dropp
 

I actually didn't bother reading this link because your posts bear less fruit than an artificial Christmas tree. But, curiosity got the better of me.

I urge everybody to click that link in the quote and follow the next few posts. I actually felt sorry (well kind of:D) for the complete mauling he was given.

This one caught my eye -
http://www.politicalforum.com/4765648-post112.html

The video in that post was just so blindingly obvious and conclusive - yet astonishingly FF88 insists it is a bubble in a mystery wave blower tank:boxedin:
 
Last edited:
Briefly returning to the subject of dust free sand:

Having spent more hours than I care to remember in my under and post-graduate studies producing particle size analysis of soil samples, I can categorically state that washing and sieving soil samples into different size fractions, and then drying them, is time consuming and tedious, and to carry out such a task for an entire 'set' would be a monumental (and utterly pointless) task. Cleaning the Aegean stables would be less work.

I did this this morning: some screenshots taken from the final approach of 'Eagle' to Tranquillity Base superimposed on the most recent LRO image.

apollo11recent.gif
 
I've never seen any of the prints that show fine outlines actually being made. Can you link to any footage of that?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The flag deployments from Apollo 15 and 17 spring to mind. The really good quality footage, unbroken for quite some time, is on the individual mission box sets, and I am betting big money that you have only seen stuff on youtube
I've watched some of it and I've never seen a print with fine outlines being made. I haven't watched all of it though. If you know of such a case, could you post the link?
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/video17.html#alsepoffload

Let's talk about whether just moving and placing dust-free sand will create enough erosion to make enough dust to cause a dust cloud when the sand is driven over.
http://apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=1094

Let's not confuse this issue with the issue of how difficult it is to make sand dust-free, or sift it.

In this thread Jay Windley and some other pro-Apollo posters said that the fact that the soil that was kicked up by the rover didn't billow was proof that the footage was taken in a vacuum.
http://apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=1009&page=1

I countered that it could have been large-grained sand that had been treated to make it dust-free. They all countered that it would have been impossible to transport and place the dust-free sand without causing enough erosion to make enough dust to cause a dust cloud when the sand is driven over. My common sense tells me that this is ridiculous. I asked a couple of people with backgrounds in geology and they said that Jay and the other pro-Apollo posters were quite wrong.

Some posters on a geology forum said the same.
http://apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=1009&page=1

Here's another one of the posts (twelfth post from the top).
http://www.geologyrocks.co.uk/forum/q_and_a/a_strange_scenario_re_sifted_sand
As has been said, washed and clean sand will not erode just by moving it. Sand has a high surface area to volume ratio (at least if it's sub-rounded or better), which makes it stronger against breaking.


Now look what this guy said.
http://geology.about.com/bio/Andrew-Alden-453.htm
Sand like that will be clean and dust-free in the scenario you pose.


Here's where he said it.
http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ab-geology&tid=628

Now look what Jay Windley said.
http://apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=1094
This whole idea of not being able to make sand dust-free is totally silly.
----------------------------------------------------------
Not to the people who have actually tried to do it. And that would not be you.


I want to hear the opinions of all of the pro-Apollo posters on this issue and please don't talk about other issues such as how difficult it might be to clean and sift sand. Those are different issues.

Who do you agree with? Do you agree with the geologists from the forums, or Jay Windley and those pro-Apollo posters at the Clavius forum?
 
Last edited:
I've watched some of it and I've never seen a print with fine outlines being made. I haven't watched all of it though. If you know of such a case, could you post the link?

You ask me for examples of this, which tells me what I already knew, that you have no idea about the really long footage(in much better quality than online snippets) where this happens fairly frequently. Only small snippets of the missions are on youtube. Go and buy the box set:D

Like every hoax believer, you haven't even seen 1/100th of the footage available, so how are you qualified to make any assertion along this line?

I think you are actually playing games. I read through the last few pages of that trainwreck of a thread on Spurstalk, where you appear to be arguing with yourself:confused: But also where you have been asking the same questions as here, and already been given the Apollo 15 flag ceremony as an example. It clearly shows prints being made, defined enough for them to hold shape, but also with very fine regolith(clearly visible as such) in numerous places being kicked across the surface and not forming any residual dust cloud.

So. I echo what "Fatfreddy88" on that forum says to you........
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5702778&postcount=3110

"Normal sand does not take flat visible prints, wet sand does.
Wet sand does not kick up like dust, it flies in clumps. There are numerous examples in this clip alone where you can see really fine stuff flashing across the surface."


Your comments please.

p.s. The picture from that link:jaw-dropp

Who do you agree with? Do you agree with the geologists from the forums, or Jay Windley and those pro-Apollo posters at the Clavius forum?

This is irrelevant, but I agree with Jay, since this is more about aggregate transport (a civil engineering point), than it is about knowing how to wash sand from a geologist's point of view. Your quote mining of the thread is noted, there are geologists on that thread who contradict each other. I don't really know enough about this, and interestingly enough, neither do you.

On a more general note, I think your excercise in trying to win an "I proved Jay Windley wrong" tee-shirt is rather tedious and repetitive.
 
Last edited:
Who do you agree with? Do you agree with the geologists from the forums, or Jay Windley and those pro-Apollo posters at the Clavius forum?

You realize of course that for your question to even begin to make sense you would first have to establish those geologists agreed with you that Apollo was a hoax right? Again you pick some narrow point, on this occasion find some experts who support that point and try to inflate that into them agreeing with your hypothesis. So please point us to the posts where those geologists state that Apollo was hoaxed.
 
Let's talk about whether just moving and placing dust-free sand will create enough erosion to make enough dust to cause a dust cloud when the sand is driven over.
http://apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=1094

Let's not confuse this issue with the issue of how difficult it is to make sand dust-free, or sift it.

In this thread Jay Windley and some other pro-Apollo posters said that the fact that the soil that was kicked up by the rover didn't billow was proof that the footage was taken in a vacuum.
http://apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=1009&page=1

I countered that it could have been large-grained sand that had been treated to make it dust-free. They all countered that it would have been impossible to transport and place the dust-free sand without causing enough erosion to make enough dust to cause a dust cloud when the sand is driven over. My common sense tells me that this is ridiculous. I asked a couple of people with backgrounds in geology and they said that Jay and the other pro-Apollo posters were quite wrong.

Some posters on a geology forum said the same.
http://apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=1009&page=1

Here's another one of the posts (twelfth post from the top).
http://www.geologyrocks.co.uk/forum/q_and_a/a_strange_scenario_re_sifted_sand



Now look what this guy said.
http://geology.about.com/bio/Andrew-Alden-453.htm



Here's where he said it.
http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ab-geology&tid=628

Now look what Jay Windley said.
http://apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=1094



I want to hear the opinions of all of the pro-Apollo posters on this issue and please don't talk about other issues such as how difficult it might be to clean and sift sand. Those are different issues.

Who do you agree with? Do you agree with the geologists from the forums, or Jay Windley and those pro-Apollo posters at the Clavius forum?


What part of "this is an engineering question, and not a geology question" did you not understand?
 
YOu are suggesting that many truckloads of sand would need to be transported and then spread out over a large area to make a fake moonscape for the rover to drive around on.

I am sure that for small ammounts of sand it is possible to wash and grade to make it dust free. I can't imagine that filling trucks with 30 or 40 tons of sand at a time, transporting then tipping then either shoveling or moving with a mechanical digger or bulldozer wouldn't cause dust.
 
There is some hoax evidence that's so clear that it can't be obfuscated...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8014461&postcount=128
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4001964&postcount=1

... so we know Apollo was a hoax so this issue about the dust-free sand is not about whether they went to the moon. It's about Jay Windley's credibility the credibility of the Clavius site and its forum.

This video is about the issue in case any viewers are confused.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S30XLds5gc



The issue is not about whether sand can be made dust-free. The issue is about whether just moving and placing dust-free sand will cause enough erosion to create enough dust to cause a dust cloud when the sand is driven over.

Nowhere in this thread do I see anyone say that.
http://www.geologyrocks.co.uk/forum/q_and_a/a_strange_scenario_re_sifted_sand






Please post an actual quotation from the above thread that says that just transporting and placing sand that's already dust-free will cause enough erosion to create enough dust to cause a dust cloud when the sand is driven over.

These two quotes from post #7915...


...are not about that issue and do not refute the claim that just transporting and placing dust-free sand will not cause enough erosion to create enough dust to cause a dust cloud when the sand is driven over.


The guy who said this seems to have some good credentials.
http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ab-geology&tid=628

http://geology.about.com/bio/Andrew-Alden-453.htm

He and the people on the other thread disagree with Jay Windley and the other posters on the Clavius forum.
http://apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=1094

It looks to me like Jay and those other pro-Apollo posters are quite wrong on this issue. It also looks like they weren't simply mistaken, but lying as Jay said he knew what he knew from experience.







Anyone who actually watches all the footage...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8033032&postcount=1

...and compares the movement of the corner of Collins' jacket to the movement of the jacket corners moving on earth will see that it's the same and the puffed up shoulders is not a sign of zero-G. The movement of the back of the jacket is consistent with movement in gravity.



I stopped when he discredited himself by trying to obfuscate the clear proof that the Chinese spacewalk was faked in a water tank. Here is a different thread where he looked especially silly. Start reading at post #110.
http://www.politicalforum.com/moon-...20-1969-sir-questions-sir-11.html#post4764783

Once the viewers know that someone is deliberately trying to obfuscate anomalies, what's the point of continuing? The guy has no credibility.


broken-pot.jpg
 
YOu are suggesting that many truckloads of sand would need to be transported and then spread out over a large area to make a fake moonscape for the rover to drive around on.

I am sure that for small ammounts of sand it is possible to wash and grade to make it dust free. I can't imagine that filling trucks with 30 or 40 tons of sand at a time, transporting then tipping then either shoveling or moving with a mechanical digger or bulldozer wouldn't cause dust.

I don't get how the same sand can be dust free and accept sharp prints?

If one want to make a CT scenario why not go for portland cement in a studio under vacuum?
 
FF88,
this geologist you speak of, creating dust-free sand et al...

Has the lunar surface scenario been presented to him? Would he watch the rover travelling hundreds of feet and say such footage could be done using sand and slow motion? Does he believe this rover footage was faked?
The lunar surface was fine, talcum powder- like dust. The footprints were completely different from those in sand (it would most certainly have to be wet sand to take any prints at all).

I think this geologist's comments need some context.
 
YOu are suggesting that many truckloads of sand would need to be transported and then spread out over a large area to make a fake moonscape for the rover to drive around on.

I am sure that for small ammounts of sand it is possible to wash and grade to make it dust free. I can't imagine that filling trucks with 30 or 40 tons of sand at a time, transporting then tipping then either shoveling or moving with a mechanical digger or bulldozer wouldn't cause dust.

Let's not forget the number of people required to pull this off, in secret.
 
I've always been amused by the Kubrick connection. Number one, why Kubrick when what you really need is Douglas Trumbull's special effects? Number two, Kubrick would've have required several years of prep work as he was notorious for his meticulous research and planning. Number three, he was making 2001 until 1968 (fiddling with it until right before it's first showing apparently) Then he threw himself into 2 years of preproduction and research for Clockwork Orange. he honestly didn't have the time as a man like Kubrick would have never just shown up and trusted the setups and research of a bunch of Govt people. He would have controlled the shoot from inception to release.

It's a silly idea made by silly people.
 
You ask me for examples of this, which tells me what I already knew, that you have no idea about the really long footage(in much better quality than online snippets) where this happens fairly frequently. Only small snippets of the missions are on youtube. Go and buy the box set

Like every hoax believer, you haven't even seen 1/100th of the footage available, so how are you qualified to make any assertion along this line?
You won't link to a clip which shows a detailed footprint being made because there isn't any such footage. If you've seen it, show us the clip.
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/video17.html#alsepoffload

You should know more or less where it is if you've really seen it.

There are numerous examples in this clip alone where you can see really fine stuff flashing across the surface."
If he's sure that's fine dust that's being kicked in this clip, he's really stretching his imagination.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymwE1sNm82Y

That could very well be coarse dust-free sand. You have an authoritative patronizing attitude, but your position is very weak.

The fact that Jay and his friends are wrong is so clear that even this regular pro-Apollo poster from the Clavius forum...
http://apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=viewprofile&user=postbaguk

...had to admit they were wrong.
http://s1.zetaboards.com/LooseChangeForums/single/?p=282886&t=51606

We had also discussed this issue on the second "Loose Change" forum and HeadLikeARock openly said that Jay and those other posters were wrong. Then, the thread disappeared, because of pressure I suppose. I started another thread to discuss the matter of the disappearing thread. Here it is.
http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=18777

The credibility of the Clavius site and forum is a pretty sensitive issue on some sites. At the "Unexplained Mysteries" forum the moderators forbade its discussion. I started a thread about Clavius and Bad Astronomy.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125628
 
YOu are suggesting that many truckloads of sand would need to be transported and then spread out over a large area to make a fake moonscape for the rover to drive around on.

I am sure that for small ammounts of sand it is possible to wash and grade to make it dust free. I can't imagine that filling trucks with 30 or 40 tons of sand at a time, transporting then tipping then either shoveling or moving with a mechanical digger or bulldozer wouldn't cause dust.
Many truckloads indeed.

We see the lunar missions covering hundreds of feet of landscape at a time. Let be very generous and say that they would have had to cover an area of *only* 1000 feet by 500 feet, and assume it's only a fairly thin layer, say 4 inches deep. 1000 x 500 x .3333 = 166,650 cubic feet, or 6,172 cubic yards. At an average weight of about 1.3 tons per cubic yard, that's over 8000 tons, or over 16 *million* pounds of sand!

The big aggregate trucks with two trailers average about 40 tons per load. The large single dumpers carry about half that. So it would take somewhere between 200 and 400 truckloads of *very* carefully washed sand to cover just that relatively small area.

And that assumes that after washing there was no accidental abrasion of the particles during the loading, unloading, spreading, and sculpting of the landscape. And that those particles would then look like fine powder on the ground and take footprints and tireprints like fine powder in a vacuum.

So yeah, I'm going with Jay on this one.
 
Many truckloads indeed.

We see the lunar missions covering hundreds of feet of landscape at a time. Let be very generous and say that they would have had to cover an area of *only* 1000 feet by 500 feet, and assume it's only a fairly thin layer, say 4 inches deep. 1000 x 500 x .3333 = 166,650 cubic feet, or 6,172 cubic yards. At an average weight of about 1.3 tons per cubic yard, that's over 8000 tons, or over 16 *million* pounds of sand!

The big aggregate trucks with two trailers average about 40 tons per load. The large single dumpers carry about half that. So it would take somewhere between 200 and 400 truckloads of *very* carefully washed sand to cover just that relatively small area.

And that assumes that after washing there was no accidental abrasion of the particles during the loading, unloading, spreading, and sculpting of the landscape. And that those particles would then look like fine powder on the ground and take footprints and tireprints like fine powder in a vacuum.

So yeah, I'm going with Jay on this one.

And even if it were possible to obtain and transport all that sand where exactly is it going to be spread out? You can hardly set it up outdoors where a breeze or a stray rabbit/lizard can ruin your whole shoot. And of course it all has to be done without anyone noticing or asking questions. It's just easier to go to the moon.
 
I've watched some of it and I've never seen a print with fine outlines being made...
The Apollo imagery record is replete with high-resolution images of fine-grained outlines of rover, MESA, and boot tracks. Your failure to observe the obvious is yours, not anyone else's.
Let's talk about whether just moving and placing dust-free sand will create enough erosion to make enough dust to cause a dust cloud when the sand is driven over.
Let's remember that we're talking about enough sand to cover many hundreds of square yards at an absolute minimum in order to account for the operations around the LMs alone.

Let's be kind and say a foot of sand depth over about 200 yards in each dimension as a reasonably conservative approximation. That's 40,000 sq. yd. *9 sq. ft./sq. yd * 1 ft = 360,000 cu. ft., at around 100 lbs/cu. ft. = 36 million lbs of David's Magic Sand. That's on the order of magnitude of 20,000 tons of this stuff for each ALSEP mission (12, 14, 15, 16, 17) - a lot more for the rover missions.

This stuff has to be transported by the truckload, and used without generating any visible clouding in a brightly lit, high-contrast (black background) soundstage hundreds of meters wide. Entertaining lunacy, but lunacy nonetheless. And even if it could be done, this doesn't account for any other facet of the missions.
Let's not confuse this issue with the issue of how difficult it is to make sand dust-free, or sift it.
That was your claim. Don't try to run away from it now.
... I asked a couple of people with backgrounds in geology and they said that Jay and the other pro-Apollo posters were quite wrong.
Really? That's exactly what they said? Who were they?
Actually, they said a variety of things,...
Here's another one of the posts (twelfth post from the top).
http://www.geologyrocks.co.uk/forum/q_and_a/a_strange_scenario_re_sifted_sand
... like this fellow, who called the hoax theory "a stupid idea" and said you were putting words in his mouth.
And his answers contradicts the first guy you pointed out. Moreover, HeadLikeARock's question was about "several tons" of sand - a couple of pickup truck's worth. Your evidence-free Magic Sand explanation requires roughly ten thousand times more, and his answer further does not really address the usage wear, nor the high-visibility conditions a fake would require.

Fallacy of limited scope, on top of no evidence, on top of contradictory sources. Why do we have to do all the thinking about the silly fantasies you propose?
Now look what Jay Windley said...
More with the unhealthy obsession about Jay. But he's not the only knowledgeable poster here. You don't get to make this you vs. Jay; it's you vs. everybody who actually understands Apollo.
I want to hear the opinions of all of the pro-Apollo posters on this issue...
You have, and I have a couple of decades working in a field you know nothing about. You claimed I didn't believe what I was saying. I demand you provide direct evidence for this claim - no juvenile loyalty tests - or retract it and apologize.
Who do you agree with? Do you agree with the geologists from the forums, or Jay Windley and those pro-Apollo posters at the Clavius forum?
Be careful, David - remember what happened when you said all the "lurkers and viewers" agreed with you? Nineteen lurkers responded, and all of them said you were wrong, with one calling your claims "ludicrous" and another saying you were "off [your] rocker". Do you really want to try that again, after yet another thread in which all the active participants disagree with you?
 
You won't link to a clip which shows a detailed footprint being made because there isn't any such footage. If you've seen it, show us the clip.

Bold words from you, when I already have.

Apollo 15 flag. Apollo 17 flag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0f9_WwWCng

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYPGopJ6ciI
Just the one footprint made on that, but the soil does take one, whilst showing dust being kicked - unclumped together. Dry sand doesn't allow the former and wet sand doesn't allow the latter. It is lunar regolith. Maybe you think they created that "set" with washed sand:boxedin:

You should know more or less where it is if you've really seen it.

Why should I remember all of them or go looking for them? I already told you the really good quality footage is on the box sets, not compressed grainy snippets on the ALSJ.

Here's a reasonably good one from the ALSJ, footprints being made about half way through as they come up the hill, dust kicked in all directions, very fine and visible...

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/a17v.1672622.mpg

Anyway, why should I even bother given your next comment:rolleyes: I mean seriously, you are in complete denial, the dust is clearly visible whisping across the surface.

If he's sure that's fine dust that's being kicked in this clip, he's really stretching his imagination.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymwE1sNm82Y

Bottom left corner, first 15 seconds. Seriously you need to go to specsavers if you cannot see that. But, everybody watching that will see it and will know that you can see it too, you have to deny this to keep your quest for the tee-shirt going.

Anyone watching this, please tell me whether your imagination is also in a stretched state, because I see fine dust kicked across the surface and footprints being made.

That could very well be coarse dust-free sand. You have an authoritative patronizing attitude, but your position is very weak.

Ad hominem noted, try that again and I'll start clicking the red triangle. Anybody who has come across you on a forum over the last five years, will know that it is a complete waste of time even engaging with you.

I guess this guy knows more than most.
 
Last edited:
Fatfreddy88 is doing the exact same thing as he did in the other thread on this forum. He is refusing to answer entire posts and questions within them.

[FF88] They would laugh you out of the debating hall on that. You seem to be cornered. You hoax believers know we went to the Moon, you just obfuscate and use sophistry because you cannot hide the obvious evidence.:D[/FF88]

Also, respond to the contradictory statements you made.
"Collins' jacket corner bounces up and down the way it would in gravity"

"In zero-G the jacket would be bouncing up and down on his back if it were loose"

And these two whilst we are on the subject(from the signature of the same userid on spurstalk).
"Her hair flops up and down" followed by "her hair has no tendency to go downward"

After 50 pages saying there is no zero-g....."If it turns out that there really is some floating"

And this, do you have any comment to make?
It makes it a monumental "continuity" problem to have a duplicate set for photographs that corresponds exactly to one for video, and just for Apollo 17 that is 21 hours worth of EVA and hundreds of photographs.
 
The mod team has received several reports that the same links are being posted over and over again. Frankly, there are just too many links to sort out and compare. Thus, for this thread and for this thread only the following rule is now in place:

You may NOT post a link to a discussion on another board. Even when quoting a post for the purpose of a reply, you may NOT post a link to another discussion board.

All other rules remain in effect. Flooding with the same picture or link may subject you to mod action.

Any post made after this one is presumed to have been made after having read this mod box.

Thank you for helping to keep the JREF a fun, readable and fast-moving forum.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Loss Leader
 
What part of "this is an engineering question, and not a geology question" did you not understand?

Indeed, I struggle to see where any of these geologists have any experience transporting a milled and graded aggregate.

This is the classic conspiracist tactic of misplaced expertise. Gravel, rocks, and finely-powdered dust are all made from rocks, right? And who knows more about rocks than geologists, right? So here's a geologist offering his untried opinion that you can haul rocks in trucks or conveyors without generating dust. And since he's an expert in rocks, his opinion should be respected, right?

Unfortunately we're not talking about the use of aggregate particulates for some specific practical purpose, something that engineers are far better at than geologists. It's also something we've been doing since, oh, Roman times. If we start from the macadam roads the Romans built and trace everything forward to modern high-strength concrete, the need to prepare a precisely proportioned mix of precisely graded aggregates is a well-worn problem (pun intended). Specifically, we need particles of a particular shape and mix of sizes, so that they sift together in the mix and create a matrix that offers the best of both worlds -- the strength of the aggregate plus the ability to assume the formed shape.

The problem is that when we attempt to transport the coarser aggregate elements from the grading mill to the site, we end up with too much fine aggregate because what started in the truck or conveyor as particulates of a proper shape and of a given size, +/- 0.X%, arrives with a whole bunch of smaller particles produced as the aggregate rubs against itself during transport. That's the reason precisely proportioned aggregate mixes can only be prepared onsite in very small quantites: they simply cannot be subsequently handled very much without destroying the proportions.

Geologists aren't typically experts in this -- the practical handling of particulates. This isn't a matter of "Well, geologists speculate this might happen." It's a matter of, "Engineers know this happens because they experience it."

I think this geologist's comments need some context.

If any of these geologists discussed the chemical cementation properties of lunar soil, I missed it. That affects how well it will take a print. Those properties were discussed briefly in the Apollo 11 Preliminary Science Report and at length in the remainder of the relevant literature. I'm not saying these guys don't know their stuff; I'm just saying that a proper discussion of whether a particulate would take a print has to include that chemical factor.

There is also physical cementation. Above, I mentioned proportional mixes for high-strength applications. We also consider dry-aggregate cementation, which is the matrix that forms when you compact an aggregate composed of particles of a particular shape. We know that a weak form of mechanical cementation occurs when jagged particles are poured into a crevice or gap and then allowed to settle either by gravity or accelerated by compaction. This cementation can achieve surprisingly robust results.

Just like everyone did in the "Lurkers and Viewers" Thread at Apollohoax.
FIVE YEARS AGO.

And that's the real story. As you've guessed, FatFreddy88 is all about proving Jay wrong about something, at all costs -- not about finding the answers to his hoax claims. Back where I first debated him and we first discussed fake Moon dust, he was simply unable to deal with the opinions of experienced experts and the objections they raised. So he turned to trying to impeach the expertise. He did this first by saying that no one could be considered an expert unless they agreed with him about other conspiracies. That is, he proposed a litmus test that said unless you were a conspiracy theorist like he was, your "expert" opinion couldn't be trusted because you were otherwise just a government shill.

Predictably he was banned. And I have to say it's a little disturbing to see that five years later he's still trying to impeach my credibility by trash-talking me to anyone who will listen.

Five years later he's still making dishonest and unproven claims of this ilk:
Jay Windley knows that Apollo was a hoax. He gets paid to try to obfuscate the evidence and try to discredit hoax-believers.
(Google it, since we're not linking for the time being). He has provided zero evidence for it. This has become a personal vendetta for him, and I'm sorry to see him join a very small, very exclusive club of people with a sort of sick, obsessive fixation on me personally. Naturally it's not healthy, and I do not intend to indulge it here, although I will courteously engage others.
 
Refuting Moon Hoaxers with evidence is great and necessary,but I admit I still sorta of like the Buzz Aldrin method of dealing with them......
 
Obviously if he can find a mistake by Jay then Apollo must be a hoax!

What makes you think any of these conspiracy theorists care whether Apollo was real or fake? I think it's just a game. Patrick1000 wanted to go down in history as the world's greatest Apollo "historian." Others just want not to be obscure and unknown, and they don't care what outrageous thing they have to say to get what they want. And still others have inferiority complexes and think that if they can "best" a noted authority at any topic, they don't feel so bad about their situation.
 
What makes you think any of these conspiracy theorists care whether Apollo was real or fake? I think it's just a game. Patrick1000 wanted to go down in history as the world's greatest Apollo "historian." Others just want not to be obscure and unknown, and they don't care what outrageous thing they have to say to get what they want. And still others have inferiority complexes and think that if they can "best" a noted authority at any topic, they don't feel so bad about their situation.

Oh yes, the mentality of CT'ers is a total projection of their personal feelings of inadequacy onto something that is "bigger than themselves". It allows them to feel important because "only they know the truth" and the will one day be famous for "exposing this truth to the world".

Sometimes I feel it's no different than thinking you are Teddy Roosevelt!
 
Maybe its closing time for this thread enlightening and amusing as it has been
 
Perhaps. It was Patrick1000's thread for 99.5% of its content, and FatFreddy88 seems to want to take it in a different direction. I know the direction he's planning to take it, and it's the same hokum he's preached for 5+ years. So I have little interest in it. But it might be interesting to see if he can sustain a discussion without spamming this thread with links to every other forum under the sun where he's tried to show that Clavius and its author are equivalent to the devil's [anatomical reference].
 
I want to say that I've just watched a program on the Discovery Channel (on cable, in the UK) called "The truth behind the Moon landings".

It had Kaysing & Rene spouting their theories, but more importantly, there was Jay Windley comprehensively demolishing said theories!

Way to go Jay - a real tour de force!

Excellent - I enjoyed every minute!

Thank you!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom