General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

ANTPogo said:

No, nothing at all like that, since unlike Smith's and Duke's unaccountable (and therefore scam) requests for donations, as a registered 501(c)(3), you can obtain information about the Holocaust History Project directly from the IRS at this handy website.

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Pay tax to the IRS is not proof of credibility.

Failed "appeal to authority" argument...

uke2se said:

Wow, you can post an image. That's a strong argument.

Now, could you twaddle along? The grown ups might want to use this thread.

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Oh, sorry, I almost ignored your post...

Grown ups? Like the one which can only posts laughing dogs instead of the evidence required?

Right?

SnakeTongue said:

You are bit insistent, Miss elementary teacher.

Look the homework I did for you...

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Oh, goody, the old Dresden canard. Whenever that comes up it's proof positive that the poster hasn't got the first clue about the history of aerial operations during WWII. Or else they'd know why raising Dresden in the manner they do is a canard.

ANTPogo said:

For instance, on May 16, 1942, Becker wrote a full report to Rauff about the operation of the gas vans (you can view images of the originals here), where he says,



And before you perform a "fraud" analysis on this document too (as Ingrid Weckert and Thomas Kues have tried and failed miserably to do), you might be interested to know that Rauff himself acknowledged the above as an actual and real message that he received from Becker.

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Before I proceed on the analysis of the document above, I need an answer for two questions:

Is the document a copy from the original or the original itself?

How many pages compose the document? Two or three?

ANTPogo said:

Sometimes it's the only way to get the student to learn.



Your homework is incomplete. There are plenty of images showing both the emaciated survivors and the corpses at the death camps, taken both before and after the camps' liberation, so go back and fill in the blank where the question mark is.

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Please provide examples of images showing emaciated survivors and dead people at death camps taken before the camp's liberation. Please provide examples of images showing emaciated survivors and corpses taken after the camp's liberation. Identify which are which and how you know. And remember--death camps. Not concentration camps.

And while you're at it, please provide the forensic and documentary proof that the person shown in the Dresden section was actually killed at Dresden by Allied bombing, and that the child shown in the Hiroshima section was actually injured in Hiroshima by the atomic bomb.

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That picture's from Hamburg, not Dresden. I know they all look alike to you guys. Show me a picture of a body that had been gassed.

Because I know you'll ask for that same proof regarding the images of Nazi death camp victims.

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No I won't because I'm just jumping in here for a second while taking a break from doing taxes. I'm not sticking around. I tell you, tax time's getting harder every year, what with all the money I'm making from my denial work. I thought being filthy stinkin' rich was suppose to be fun.

Anywhoo, if you do dredge up some photographs, be sure and explain what exactly they are showing vis-a-vis, the holocaust. You don't need to prove they were actually taken at German camps upon liberation. You just need to prove that they actually prove what you say they prove. For example: this isn't evidence of a gas chamber. Neither is this.

SnakeTongue said:

I am also really sorry for your have wasted your time typing all the above...

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No doubt. Since it is probably the case you didn't read it.

SnakeTongue said:

Your effort to divert the subject from my original enquires to my personal claims is USELESS!

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I think this can be translated, accurately, to mean that my corrections to your ridiculous and unfounded claim aside, you will continue to post whatever you feel like making up.

SnakeTongue said:

WHATEVER I LIED OR NOT FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW,

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I am not sure that shouting is needed here, but, to focus on the supposed claim of gassing of millions of political prisoners, as you wrote, at first I had thought maybe you just made a dumb mistake, but your persistence leads me to conclude you were trying to put one over. So, where is the evidence for anyone's claiming gassing of millions of political prisoners? We're still waiting.

SnakeTongue said:

YOU DID NOT PROVIDED ONE SINGLE PRIMARY EVIDENCE WHICH PROVE THE SO CALLED MASS EXTERMINATIONS OF JEWS HAPPENED!

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In a reply to your distortion of what historians have written about the Holocaust? Why on earth would I?

SnakeTongue said:

THAT IS WHAT WE ARE SPEAKING ABOUT HERE:

JREF Forum » General Topics » Conspiracy Theories » [Merged] General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Well, yes, but. If you will notice, in this thread I have cited many primary sources showing mass extermination of Jews. However, you introduced the silliness that the NAzis are accused of murdering millions of political prisoners by gas -- "What I indeed wrote was the accusation which is made against the Third Reich" -- so my asking for your evidence of this accusation is more than pertinent.

Noted that you are trying to had your failure with shouting caps and other diversions.

Dogzilla said:

No I won't because I'm just jumping in here for a second while taking a break from doing taxes. I'm not sticking around. I tell you, tax time's getting harder every year, what with all the money I'm making from my denial work. I thought being filthy stinkin' rich was suppose to be fun.

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Baffling.

Doing taxes? I thought you'd gone back to school to actually learn something about all this. Or had taken the time to sound out the Jaeger report so you could finally say what Jaeger was writing about. Have you read the report, then, finally?

SnakeTongue said:

Before I proceed on the analysis of the document above, I need an answer for two questions:

Is the document a copy from the original or the original itself?

How many pages compose the document? Two or three?

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And so, unable to answer the questions put to him by ANTPogo, SnakeTongue decides the best defense is to divert by asking questions himself. Sad. And a very blatant dodge.

SnakeTongue said:

Oh, sorry, I almost ignored your post...

Grown ups? Like the one which can only posts laughing dogs instead of the evidence required?

Right?

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What else is there to do with your laughable posts? You're in danger of taking flight if you continue waving your hands like that.

SnakeTongue said:

Revisionists do not believe in tales told by people, as well forced confessions in war trials which the accused have no right to defence.

Revisionism is scientific analysis, something you should get grasp with it.

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LemmyCaution said:

No doubt. Since it is probably the case you didn't read it.

I think this can be translated, accurately, to mean that my corrections to your ridiculous and unfounded claim aside, you will continue to post whatever you feel like making up.

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You are not trying to correct anything at all. If my claim is wrong, and I did not provided reliable evidence for what I claimed, why you do not just show where I am wrong?

What indeed happened? What you support?

Show what is the correct claim and prove me wrong with arguments!

Did millions were killed in gas chambers? Who they were? Jews? Homosexuals? POWs?

LemmyCaution said:

I am not sure that shouting is needed here, but, to focus on the supposed claim of gassing of millions of political prisoners, as you wrote, at first I had thought maybe you just made a dumb mistake, but your persistence leads me to conclude you were trying to put one over. So, where is the evidence for anyone's claiming gassing of millions of political prisoners? We're still waiting.

In a reply to your distortion of what historians have written about the Holocaust? Why on earth would I?

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So what exactly historians have written about? What is the original claim for the supposed mass extermination plan?

LemmyCaution said:

Well, yes, but. If you will notice, in this thread I have cited many primary sources showing mass extermination of Jews. However, you introduced the silliness that the NAzis are accused of murdering millions of political prisoners by gas -- "What I indeed wrote was the accusation which is made against the Third Reich" -- so my asking for your evidence of this accusation is more than pertinent.

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You cited references to interpretations made on secondary evidence. The primary evidence you still did not provided.

If that accusation is wrong, which is the right one?

LemmyCaution said:

Noted that you are trying to had your failure with shouting caps and other diversions.

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No, I am only expressing my astonishment in face of the posts I discovered debating "SnakeTogue" rather than "Holocaust".

LemmyCaution said:

And so, unable to answer the questions put to him by ANTPogo, SnakeTongue decides the best defense is to divert by asking questions himself. Sad. And a very blatant dodge.

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I made an analysis from a document which was indicated as "proof" of a mass extermination plan.

I find signs of forgery in the document. The document content do not address anything which proves the execution of a mass extermination plan by the Third Reich.

ANTPogo is trying to prove that I "copied" my analysis. That is not going to change the lack of credibility of the forged document.

There are still many documents which I want to verify. So I am not interested to waste time in a debate which will not provide any additional and helpful information to prove that a mass extermination plan really happened.

Dogzilla said:

That picture's from Hamburg, not Dresden. I know they all look alike to you guys. Show me a picture of a body that had been gassed.

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That is interesting. I find that picture on the Internet in a search for Dresden bombing. Do you know where I can find the original picture?

Dogzilla said:

That picture's from Hamburg, not Dresden. I know they all look alike to you guys.

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"You guys?" Your fellow rev who put together ST's image was the one who labeled that photo "Dresden."

SnakeTongue said:

You are not trying to correct anything at all. If my claim is wrong, and I did not provided reliable evidence for what I claimed, why you do not just show where I am wrong?

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Let's see how this works. You write:

The original claim: German Third Reich had mass exterminate millions of political prisoners with gas chambers.

Therefore, being the German Third Reich the accused, the burden of proof remains on the accuser.

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Then you write:

What I indeed wrote was the accusation which is made against the Third Reich. In no moment I affirmed that really happened. That is why I am asking for evidence.

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Not ever having read this accusation, and not wanting to cite every book, article, web post, blog, etc. ever written, I reasonably reply,

Please provide a quotation for this specific claim and show where it has been made.

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You post a quotation that doesn't mention political prisoners in it. So now you think that I need to produce examples of people NOT making the accusation? LOL That seems to be your way of acknowledging you can't produce one example of someone making the accusation you charged people with making.

SnakeTongue said:

So what exactly historians have written about? What is the original claim for the supposed mass extermination plan?

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You're supposed to be the revisionist. Why don't you tell us, with an accurate statement, not using a strawman or lying, what it is you think needs revising?

SnakeTongue said:

You cited references to interpretations made on secondary evidence. The primary evidence you still did not provided.

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Throughout this thread, as I wrote, I've cited primary as well as secondary sources. Don't lie about what I have posted, please.

SnakeTongue said:

If that accusation is wrong, which is the right one?

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Let's deal with your false charge for now. When we have cleaned that up, we can move on.

SnakeTongue said:

No, I am only expressing my astonishment in face of the posts I discovered debating "SnakeTogue" rather than "Holocaust".

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Well, that pretty much goes with the territory. You make false statements, you turn into fair game. Easy solution: stop making false statements.

SnakeTongue said:

ANTPogo is trying to prove that I "copied" my analysis. That is not going to change the lack of credibility of the forged document.

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As far as I can tell, ANTPogo proved that you cribbed your analysis. Then he asked you some follow up questions. Like:

If one of the reasons you think it's a "proven fraud" is because you claim the office code is incomplete, then you should easily be able to explain just how you know the office code is incomplete, tell us what's missing in the office code that would make it complete, and be able to show us (or provide a reference to) an example of a document that has this complete office code.

Why can't you do that, SnakeTongue?

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Unable, apparently, to answer this simple request, you asked questions instead. I merely pointed out your failure and mendacity.

Got it?

SnakeTongue said:

There are still many documents which I want to verify. So I am not interested to waste time in a debate which will not provide any additional and helpful information to prove that a mass extermination plan really happened.

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As above, you can try rushing on to the next topic when you are caught lying and empty-handed, but we will keep calling you on your tactics.

SnakeTongue said:

Before I proceed on the analysis of the document above, I need an answer for two questions:

Is the document a copy from the original or the original itself?

How many pages compose the document? Two or three?

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I'm sure the National Archives would be more than happy to answer a polite inquiry regarding your questions. However, you're getting a bit ahead of yourself, aren't you? You still haven't answered my questions regarding your "analysis" of the first document we talked about.

If one of the reasons you think the March 1942 document is a "proven fraud" is because you claim the office code is incomplete, then you should easily be able to explain just how you know the office code is incomplete, tell us what's missing in the office code that would make it complete, and be able to show us (or provide a reference to) an example of a document that has this complete office code.

First things first, SnakeTongue. Now please either answer my questions, or explain why you can't answer my questions.

Dogzilla said:

Please provide examples of images showing emaciated survivors and dead people at death camps taken before the camp's liberation. Please provide examples of images showing emaciated survivors and corpses taken after the camp's liberation. Identify which are which and how you know. And remember--death camps. Not concentration camps.

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I'm not going to do SnakeTongue's homework for him. If he can find pictures for Dresden and Hiroshima, he can find pictures for Auschwitz.

There's a question mark in his stupid image macro not because those pictures don't exist, but because deniers are willfully refusing to look at them.

That picture's from Hamburg, not Dresden. I know they all look alike to you guys. Show me a picture of a body that had been gassed.

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Take it up with your denier compatriot SnakeTongue. He's the one that claimed it was a Dresden victim, not me.

Anywhoo, if you do dredge up some photographs, be sure and explain what exactly they are showing vis-a-vis, the holocaust. You don't need to prove they were actually taken at German camps upon liberation. You just need to prove that they actually prove what you say they prove. For example: this isn't evidence of a gas chamber. Neither is this.

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I will provide just as much "proof" as SnakeTongue provides for his other images. So if he wants more from me, he's going to have to step up and provide something for the images he posted.

SnakeTongue said:

...
I WILL NOT FOLLOW YOUR SUBJECTIVE EFFORT TO DIVERT THE INITIAL SUBJECT.

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Most people would just say "You're trying to derail" or "You're trying to change the subject". I don't think the caps are necessary.

LemmyCaution said:

Let's see how this works. You write: Then you write: Not ever having read this accusation, and not wanting to cite every book, article, web post, blog, etc. ever written, I reasonably reply, You post a quotation that doesn't mention political prisoners in it. So now you think that I need to produce examples of people NOT making the accusation? LOL That seems to be your way of acknowledging you can't produce one example of someone making the accusation you charged people with making.

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No, I am not asking you to produce examples of people NOT making the accusation. I am asking you which is the ORIGINAL claim related to the supposed mass extermination plan.

Who was killed? How many? In which way?

LemmyCaution said:

You're supposed to be the revisionist. Why don't you tell us, with an accurate statement, not using a strawman or lying, what it is you think needs revising?

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I am not supposed to be a revisionist. I never admitted to be a revisionist. You are doing the assumption.

I have already answered to another user that I do not consider myself a specialist in the Holocaust matter.

That is why I am asking for the evidence.

What I think need to be revised is the evidence presented to prove the supposed mass extermination plan, but not because I consider myself a revisionist, but just a curious persons looking for answers.

LemmyCaution said:

Throughout this thread, as I wrote, I've cited primary as well as secondary sources. Don't lie about what I have posted, please.

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No, you did not provided any PRIMARY evidence.

So far only ANTPogo had provided documents which I can verify.

LemmyCaution said:

Let's deal with your false charge for now. When we have cleaned that up, we can move on.

Well, that pretty much goes with the territory. You make false statements, you turn into fair game. Easy solution: stop making false statements.

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I will ask again: if I did a false statement about a claim which historians do not support, what is the ORIGINAL CLAIM?

What is the ORIGINAL CLAIM which the historians support with reliable evidence?

In the supposed extermination plan executed by the Third Reich, who was killed? How many? In which way?

You indeed do not provided any response to this matter, which I had already addressed in the last post.