Deeper than primes - Continuation

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Too easy. Those are just unsolved problems of Mathematics. They presumable can be solved; we just haven't, yet.

It would be far more convincing for DoronShadmi to find a solution to a problem Mathematics cannot solve. I always liked the Halting Problem.

DoronShadmi, can you solve the Halting Problem with Doronetics? Real Mathematics has already admitted its inability to deal with such a simple problem. Surely, you can solve it, no?
 
I think maybe Doron has forgotten how science works.

You need others to accept your claims, hypotheses and proofs.

If you get your stuff published in an acknowledged peer reviewed magazine I will humbly eat my words and proclaim Doron Shadmi as my mentor.

Failing that, you have to try and convince us. We do not have to convince you.
 
I think maybe Doron has forgotten how science works.

You need others to accept your claims, hypotheses and proofs.

If you get your stuff published in an acknowledged peer reviewed magazine I will humbly eat my words and proclaim Doron Shadmi as my mentor.

Failing that, you have to try and convince us. We do not have to convince you.

You realize, don't you, that DoronShadmi's along with his one-time closest confidant, Moshe Klein, are published in the highly-prestigious but inexplicably obscure Proceedings of the International Journal of Pure and Applied Mathematics? For that, they endured a rigorous review process, in direct competition with fives of others competing for precious 15-minute presentation slots, all to be awarded on a strict first-come/first-served basis without regard to content.

If that's not a complete validation of his claims, well, nothing is.
 
A traditional mind gets what I say as if {00} is a given set and {00,10,01,11} as its powerset.

By doing this he demonstrates its inability to understand, for example, http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8157521&postcount=1023, which according to it a given powerset has 2^|S| elements, where at least 2^|S| sets (where each set has |S| elements, such that each element is constructed by at least |S| symbols, which enables to use Diagonalization among the elements of each given set and conclude that it is incomplete, since the elements of each given set and the elements of the powerset, have the same construction).

Traditional minds are used as referees of peer reviewed journals, which almost automatically reject non-traditional notions.

I have no problem with that because that's how Evolution works (the traditional does not evacuate some space on the stage without fundamental confrontation with the non-traditional).
 
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A traditional mind gets what I say as if {00} is a given set and {00,10,01,11} as its powerset.

Only a confused mind would take {00, 01, 10, 11} as a power set, but it is good to see I am again referenced only by third person pronouns.

Even if it were a power set, though, we still have the problem there has been no connection established between power sets and completeness nor how diagonalization would relate to all that.

Apparently the steps used are:
  1. Imagine some non-specific set of finite cardinality (but pretend it must apply to infinite sets, too).
  2. Construct something that isn't a power set for no explicable reason.
  3. "Adjust" the original set for no explicable reason.
  4. Apply a diagonalization-like process for no explicable reason.
  5. Observe the process produces an element not in the set.
  6. Therefore incomplete.

"You can't argue with logic like that."
 
A traditional mind normally gets non-traditional notions as if they do not have explicable reason.
 
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jsfisher said:
You realize, don't you, that DoronShadmi's along with his one-time closest confidant, Moshe Klein, are published in the highly-prestigious but inexplicably obscure Proceedings of the International Journal of Pure and Applied Mathematics? For that, they endured a rigorous review process, in direct competition with fives of others competing for precious 15-minute presentation slots, all to be awarded on a strict first-come/first-served basis without regard to content.

If that's not a complete validation of his claims, well, nothing is.

Yes... well, let me backpedal a bit then revise, then go forward again, just as Doron is wont to do.

I meant, 'published because it got through peer review'.
 
A traditional mind gets what I say as if {00} is a given set and {00,10,01,11} as its powerset.

By doing this he demonstrates its inability to understand, for example, http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8157521&postcount=1023, which according to it a given powerset has 2^|S| elements, where at least 2^|S| sets (where each set has |S| elements, such that each element is constructed by at least |S| symbols, which enables to use Diagonalization among the elements of each given set and conclude that it is incomplete, since the elements of each given set and the elements of the powerset, have the same construction).

Traditional minds are used as referees of peer reviewed journals, which almost automatically reject non-traditional notions.

I have no problem with that because that's how Evolution works (the traditional does not evacuate some space on the stage without fundamental confrontation with the non-traditional).

Based on this definition, I'm non-traditional mind too!

I'm a non-traditional mind,
He's a non-traditional mind,
She's a non-traditional mind,
We're a non-traditional mind,
Wouldn't you like a non-traditional mind too?
 
Based on this definition, I'm non-traditional mind too!

I'm a non-traditional mind,
He's a non-traditional mind,
She's a non-traditional mind,
We're a non-traditional mind,
Wouldn't you like a non-traditional mind too?

It reminds me of Yes, Minister:

It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it: I have an independent mind; you are an eccentric; he is round the twist.
 
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According to the traditional view the elements of a given powerset are subsets of a given set.

Cantor's theorem of powersets (which is based on comparison of mapping between the elements of a given set (notated as S) and the elements of its powerset (notated as P(S)) is based of two steps ( here http://www.mathacademy.com/pr/prime/articles/cantor_theorem/index.asp you can find a simple explanation of it):

1) It shows that the number of elements of P(S) are at least equal to the number of elements of S.

2) It enables to construct an explicit element of P(S), which any attempt to define mapping between this element and some S element, necessarily leads to logical contradiction, which enables to conclude that no S element is mapped with this explicit element of P(S), or in other words, there are more P(S) elements than S elements even if we deal with infinitely many elements.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

We are not dealing here with Cantor's theorem of powersets.

Instead we research its construction method, which enables us to construct explicit P(S) elements which are always beyond the range of the mapping of S elements.

In this case S and P(S) elements can be mapped multiple times, according to the following rules (let's demonstrate it on S = {a,b,c}):

1) Under multiple given mappings each element of S (under a given mapping) is mapped with some element of P(S), such that under a given mapping (which is some case of multiple mappings), no element of S is mapped more than once with some element of P(S).

2) Under a given mapping if the element of S is not included in the element of P(S), then we define an element of P(S), which includes this element.

Each given mapping is resulted by some P(S) element that is beyond the range of the mapping of S elements.

Here is some example of such multiple given mappings:

a ↔ {a,b,c}
b ↔ {b,c}
c ↔ {a,c}
is resulted by {}, which is a P(S) element that is beyond the range of the mapping of S elements.

a ↔ {b,c}
b ↔ {a,b}
c ↔ {a,c}
is resulted by {a}, which is a P(S) element that is beyond the range of the mapping of S elements.

a ↔ {a,c}
b ↔ {c}
c ↔ {b,c}
is resulted by {b}, which is a P(S) element that is beyond the range of the mapping of S elements.

a ↔ {a}
b ↔ {b}
c ↔ {}
is resulted by {c}, which is a P(S) element that is beyond the range of the mapping of S elements.

a ↔ {b}
b ↔ {a}
c ↔ {c}
is resulted by {a,b}, which is a P(S) element that is beyond the range of the mapping of S elements.

a ↔ {}
b ↔ {b}
c ↔ {a,b}
is resulted by {a,c}, which is a P(S) element that is beyond the range of the mapping of S elements.

a ↔ {a}
b ↔ {c}
c ↔ {a,b}
is resulted by {b,c}, which is a P(S) element that is beyond the range of the mapping of S elements.

a ↔ {b}
b ↔ {a}
c ↔ {}
is resulted by {a,b,c}, which is a P(S) element that is beyond the range of the mapping of S elements.

Please be aware of the fact that this construction method is equivalent to the results of the S and P(S) elements that are based on the same type of forms, for example:

1) The forms are constructed by 0;1 symbols.

2) Instead of using one S and one P(S) with explicit elements (as done in the mapping case), we are using one P(S) with explicit elements, and multiple sets which are not necessarily have the same elements, but their elements have the same form of the P(S) elements.

3) Instead of using mapping between S and P(S) elements (and research mapping ranges) we define P(S) elements that are not one of the considered S elements, by using Diagonalization, for example:

100
010
001
is resulted by 000, which is a P(S) element that is not one of the given S elements.

000
010
001
is resulted by 100, which is a P(S) element that is not one of the given S elements.

000
010
001
is resulted by 100, which is a P(S) element that is not one of the given S elements.

000
001
101
is resulted by 110, which is a P(S) element that is not one of the given S elements.

100
011
110
is resulted by 001, which is a P(S) element that is not one of the given S elements.

010
011
110
is resulted by 101, which is a P(S) element that is not one of the given S elements.

110
001
010
is resulted by 011, which is a P(S) element that is not one of the given S elements.

010
001
110
is resulted by 111, which is a P(S) element that is not one of the given S elements.

The privilege of the second method is the ability to conclude that no given set is complete, exactly because P(S) and S elements are actually the same type of form (and also no P(S) is incomplete, since the largest P(S) does not exist).

This conclusion can't be achieved by the first method, because S and P(S) elements do not share the same type of form.
 
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doronshadmi said:
We are not dealing here with Cantor's theorem of powersets.

Instead we research its construction method, which enables us to construct explicit P(S) elements which are always beyond the range of the mapping of S elements.

Unless you have a good reason 'why' you want to do this, all that follows that sentence is meaningless.

doronshadmi said:
the privilege of the second method is the ability to conclude that no given set is complete, exactly because P(S) and S elements are actually the same type of form (and also no P(S) is incomplete, since the largest P(S) does not exist).

This privilege can't be achieved by the first method, because S and P(S) elements do not share the same type of form.

Why is it a privilege, advantage, something anyone would want to do?

There are more ways to (re)define a 'powerset' so that you can conclude that...

For instance: A powerset is constructed by building up the real powerset but excluding the members of the set.

What of it?
 
There are more ways to (re)define a 'powerset' so that you can conclude that...

For instance: A powerset is constructed by building up the real powerset but excluding the members of the set.
The powerset was not redefined in both methods, but the second method enables one to understand that no given set is complete.

Also we do not redefine powersets by understanding that the largest powerset does not exist (or in other words, also powersets are incomplete).
 
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We are not dealing here with Cantor's theorem of powersets.

Then why did you bring it up?

...
The privilege of the second method is the ability to conclude that no given set is complete

No, there is no relationship between your conclusion and anything that led up to it. Moreover, everything that led up to it are mere supposition-by-example, all presented without any proof. There is certainly nothing presented that would imply any of this applies to other than finite sets, too.

So, it is a big fail.

...
This conclusion can't be achieved by the first method...

...because it isn't true. Real Mathematics usually tries to avoid concluding things that are false, unlike Doronetics, which excels at it.
 
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doronshadmi said:
The powerset was not redefined in both methods, but the second method enables one to understand that no given set is complete.

Also we do not redefine powersets by understanding that the largest powerset does not exist (or in other words, also powersets are incomplete).

Then help me falsify the claim that P(S)={00,01,10,11} is complete as was requested earlier in this thread...
 
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Both construction methods and their conclusion (which are based on Proof by construction) that P(S) have more elements than S, hold whether the considered collections are finite or infinite.

But the second method, which is based on Diagonalization and forms of the same type for both P(S) and S, enables to conclude that no set (finite or infinite) is complete, and since the largest P(S) does not exist, this conclusion is extendible to P(S).

Cantor's theorem of powersets is based on Proof by contradiction and can't conclude that S and P(S) are incomplete collections.
 
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Both methods hold whether the considered collections are finite or infinite, and in both methods we validly conclude (by using Proof by construction) that P(S) have more elements than S.

But the second method, which is based on Diagonalization and forms of the same type for both P(S) and S, enable us to conclude that no set (finite or infinite) is complete, and since the largest P(S) does not exist, this conclusion is extendible to P(S).

As for Cantor's theorem of powersets, it is based on Proof by contradiction, where my two methods prove that |P(S)| > S by using Proof by construction.

Does nothing...

Then help me falsify the claim that P(S)={00,01,10,11} is complete as was requested earlier in this thread...
 

So... you post something that pertains to be a 'logical algorithm' for constructing powersets, then you refuse to work out an extremely basic example (because you can not), then you follow up by a 'you don't get it' (which implies that your written algorithm is not complete as there is another component to 'get' instead of following it through) and then you follow that by an insult.

I would say my tally now is at 2-0
 
then you refuse to work out an extremely basic example
Wrong, in both methods the all possible elements of a given P(S) are explicitly defined, but since the largest P(S) does not exist, we can't conclude that the all possible elements of a given P(S) is a general conclusion about its completeness, and by the second method we are able to construct P(P(S)) which share elements of the same type of form with P(S) etc. ...P(P(P(S)))... ad infinituum ...

and then you follow that by an insult.
Do you claim that your ability to conclude X, is independent of your awareness abilities?
 
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How about defining what a powerset is first doronshadmi? You're the only one that doesn't understand what one is. Please confirm or deny that your definition of a power set matches Wikipedia's version of power setWP.

A powerset is a collection with 2^|S| elements, where |S| is finite or infinite.

Also look at this quote, taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_power_set:
(Subset is not used in the formal definition above because the axiom of power set is an axiom that may need to be stated without reference to the concept of subset.)
 
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EDIT:

Both construction methods and their conclusion (which are based on Proof by construction) that P(S) have more elements than S, hold whether the considered collections are finite or infinite.

Cantor's proof is fine in this regard. Yours, no.

But the second method, which is based on Diagonalization and forms of the same type for both P(S) and S, enables to conclude that no set (finite or infinite) is complete, and since the largest P(S) does not exist, this conclusion is extendible to P(S).

No, it does not "enable to conclude" any such thing. You failed to show any connection to completeness. That was something you just threw in at the end after maiming a few concepts.

Cantor's theorem of powersets is based on Proof by contradiction and can't conclude that S and P(S) are incomplete collections.

Correct. Cantor's Theorem does not attempt to prove anything that is easily disproved by example. For example, the set {A, B, {A}} is complete.
 
A powerset is a collection with 2^|S| elements, where |S| is finite or infinite.

Erm, that definition is incomplete...

it is not just any arbitrary collection with 2^|S| elements... that 2^|S| follows from the definition of a powerset, namely:

A powerset is the set that consists of *all* the subsets of a given set, otherwise it is not a powerset.

So the diagonalization method is not only convoluted. It is just plain wrong.
 
The two construction methods ( demonstrated in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8163493&postcount=1052 ) easily work on infinite collections, for example:

By the first construction method that is based on mapping, one can explicitly construct 2^∞ distinct elements of P(S), which are:

a ↔ {a,b,c}
b ↔ {b,c}
c ↔ {a,c}
...
that is resulted by {}, which is a P(S) element that is beyond the range of the mapping of S elements,

a ↔ {b,c}
b ↔ {c}
c ↔ {a}
...
that is resulted by {a,b,c,...}, which is a P(S) element that is beyond the range of the mapping of S elements,

and any possible explicit P(S) element between {} and {a,b,c,...} P(S) elements, that is beyond the range of the mapping of S elements.

The second method that is based on Diagonalization, explicitly defines 000... and 111... elements and any possible 0;1 form between them, but in this case both P(S) and S elements are the same type of form (constructed by 0;1symbols), which enables to conclude that no infinite S with elements of that form is complete, and since the largest P(S) does not exist, this conclusion is extendible to P(S).
 
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Erm, that definition is incomplete...

it is not just any arbitrary collection with 2^|S| elements... that 2^|S| follows from the definition of a powerset, namely:

A powerset is the set that consists of *all* the subsets of a given set, otherwise it is not a powerset.

So the diagonalization method is not only convoluted. It is just plain wrong.

realpaladin, your notion is closed under the traditional definition of powerset, which is defined as the collection of all subsets of a given set + the empty set and the given set.

In order to be opened to a larger view of the concept of powerset, you have to clean your ball.
 
realpaladin, your notion is closed under the traditional definition of powerset, which is defined as the collection of all subsets of a given set + the empty set and the given set.

You mean, he's actually using the definition of 'powerset'.
In order to be opened to a larger view of the concept of powerset, you have to clean your ball.

If you want to define a new concept, it would be better to use a new name for it. It would also be good if you could actually define it, too.
 
realpaladin, your notion is closed under the traditional definition of powerset, which is defined as the collection of all subsets of a given set + the empty set and the given set.

In order to be opened to a larger view of the concept of powerset, you have to clean your ball.

Hehehe, I keep on laughing out loud at your completeley failing grasp of language... you may check up on what 'having a ball' means before you keep on proving yourself a fool too much...

But that aside... you are just saying here that you 'borrow' the word 'powerset' from traditional maths and completely redefine it to suit your needs.

Then we get back to the old story:

- Doron has no grasp of traditional maths
- He invents something that can not be shown to be of use to anyone
- He borrows a word from traditional maths just so:
- He can start a bickering with people that do understand traditional maths and:
- He does not tell anyone he is using a completely self-invented definition of a word that is defined by traditional maths to be one thing, and:
- He then starts acting all snooty by saying words that he thinks mean: you do not get it.
- When the above fails he makes badly veiled insults.
- After a while everyone is quiet and then Doron starts with a new post with a self-invented definition of an already defined word.


So, I am saying this:

- Your diagonalization does not hold in traditional maths' powerset.
- Your diagonalization is therefore, in traditional maths, not resulting in a powerset.
- The result of your activities is called 'powerset' by Doron, and Doron alone, because it is closed in the notion of traditional maths (you got that right), because it is defined differently.

Conclusion: Doronetics still can not show anything that can hold up a candle to traditional maths.
 
No it is not agreed under that post. You are giving, in that post, a case that has *nothing* to do with powersets...
Wrong, a powerset that is defined as "the collection of all subsets of a given set + the empty set and the given set" is the agreed definition, which is nothing but a particular case of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8165046&postcount=1065 general definition, which has a room also for powersets that their elements are constructed by, for example, 0;1 symbols, such that 2^|S| elements and |S| elements have the same type of forms.

Once again it is demonstrated that your decisions and conclusions are closed under context-dependent-only reasoning (no cross-contexts reasoning is used).
 
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Erm, that definition is incomplete...

it is not just any arbitrary collection with 2^|S| elements... that 2^|S| follows from the definition of a powerset, namely:

A powerset is the set that consists of *all* the subsets of a given set, otherwise it is not a powerset.

So the diagonalization method is not only convoluted. It is just plain wrong.


Before you yield on the whole 2^|S| point, you should know Doron has never been too keen on the transfinites. Although in one sequence of posts he'll rely on arithmetic extended through the transfinites, in another he'll deny it, and in yet another he'll pervert it into something else.

Also, as Cantor showed, you can deal with cardinality without resorting to numbers (which are a much higher level construct anyway).

Then again, even if you do admit numerical set sizes up through the transfinites, Doron's 2^|S| construction method fails miserably early into the transfinites, so it really doesn't matter either way.
 
Wrong, a powerset that is defined as "the collection of all subsets of a given set + the empty set and the given set" is the agreed definition, which is nothing but a particular case of

I quickly quoted this for posterity...

"A particular case of"
 
Wrong, a powerset that is defined as "the collection of all subsets of a given set + the empty set and the given set" is the agreed definition, which is nothing but a particular case of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8165046&postcount=1065 general definition, which has a room also for powersets that their elements are constructed by, for example 0;1 symbols, such that 2^|S| elements and |S| elements have the same type of forms.
Edit: rereading this I realise you are not even responding to the sentence you are reacting to...

But that is not the definition of a powerset!

Your reasoning is like this:

- I can also create a powerset by jumping up and down till the cows come home
- Therefore, if the cows do not come home, it is not a powerset.


Unless *everything* you produce holds to the traditional definition of a powerset, your method for creating a traditional powerset is invalid.

You may have created a headache by jumping up and down, but it is not a powerset nor a valid method of producing one.
 
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Edit: rereading this I realise you are not even responding to the sentence you are reacting to...

But that is not the definition of a powerset!

Your reasoning is like this:

- I can also create a powerset by jumping up and down till the cows come home
- Therefore, if the cows do not come home, it is not a powerset.


Unless *everything* you produce holds to the traditional definition of a powerset, your method for creating a traditional powerset is invalid.

You may have created a headache by jumping up and down, but it is not a powerset nor a valid method of producing one.
Jumping up and down within the limitations of context-dependent-only reasoning, does not help you to understand my reasoning, where both Cross-contexts and Context-dependent views are used as one comprehensive framework.
 
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