Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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There is alternative info that contradicts the official data.
You actually have alternative info (real numbers) that contradicts the "official data"? What is it and who measured it? If you are able to provide actual radiation level data in space, then as far as I know you would be the very first Apollo denier to do so.

The only people who can be sure of the true nature and levels of space radiation are people with high security clearances.
So if you know that the alternative data conflicts with the official data, then you must be one of those with the "high security clearance" that allows you to know. Can you tell us enough to prove that you are in the know without violating any security statutes?

The rest of us have no way of knowing what the levels are.
I guess this means you do not have a security clearance and have no idea what the radiation levels are in space?

Ranb
 
I'd better post the info on radiation from that thread to make sure all of the viewers see it.

http://ocii.com/~dpwozney/apollo5.htm

From your link;
The terms roentgen and rem (Roentgen Equivalent Man) are interchangeable.
Complete BS. They are nearly interchangeable for gamma radiation exposure, but roentgen is a unit of x-ray radiation and rem is a unit of biological damage caused by any type of radiation.

Nowhere in your link does it specify what the Apollo astronauts actually received on their trips. It does speculate what they might have received if they endured a solar flare, but this is not the same thing.

Ranb
 
It's plausible that Van Allen had to start lying about what he knew when he started working for NASA.
http://www.buzzcreek.com/grade-a/MOON/articles1.htm
I don't suppose that the Coilliers have any taped evidence that Van Allan said what they claim? Do you believe that article for any other reason than that it supports the conclusions that you arrived at without having access to any other valid radiation data?

Ranb
 
The anomalies in the footage and still pictures have already proven the hoax. The radiation issue isn't about whether they faked it. It's about why they faked it.

Do those videos contain any information on actual radiation levels during the Apollo space flights? If so, what link and at what time in the video? I assume you watched all those videos and are familiar with them?

Ranb
 
You people are putting forth the idea that I should study more of the official version of the nature and levels of space radiation before I talk about it.
No, I am pointing out that you know nothing at all about it, but reject the advice of people who actually do know something about it because of your absolutely rigid ideological belief.

In fact, you must believe, reflexively and without evidence, that anyone who contradicts you is lying. This includes pretty much the entire space science, engineering, and operations community who, because of your desperate need to avoid considering that you might be wrong, must all be lying; millions of people over generations all lying and conspiring to hide the truth from DavidC the Brave Anonymous Internet Warrior for Truth.

The theory is that the info you say I should study is bogus.
Wrong. As already explained, you do not have a "theory". You have an unsupported belief.
There is alternative info that contradicts the official data.
There is "alternative info" that contradicts the official claim that the world is round; that contradicts the official claim that the Earth revolves about the Sun; that contradicts the official claim that if you do not ingest nutrition, you will eventually get sick and die. All of these are exactly as valid as your "alternative info". Unlike you, I do knot merely regurgitate random third-party web sites that support my belief; I actually have the relevant education and work experience to evaluate them.

Your "alternative info" is laughably silly to those with education and experience in the subject. Again, I ask: What relevant education and work experience do you have? If you have none, why do you blindly accept the word of unqualified persons with no accountability for their claims?
The only people who can be sure of the true nature and levels of space radiation are people with high security clearances.
Wrong. As already explained, this is manifestly untrue. Commercial and civil spacecraft are largely designed, built, and operated by people without security clearances. I have been there and done that. You have no idea what you are talking about.
The rest of us have no way of knowing what the levels are.
This, too, is manifestly wrong. Many scientists, students, and amateurs (like KA9Q) have hands-on, non-NASA experience with space radiation effects. Please stop pretending this has not been explained to you already.

Moreover, any interested layman can learn enough about the subject to really get a good understanding for it. Please do not ascribe your laziness and determined ignorance to everyone else.
The government lies about so many other things, so why should we just believe their info on space radiation?
Because the public data used by every spacefaring country, every spacecraft designer, manufacturer, operator, and insurer worldwide is consistent with it, and if your fantasy were correct said spacecraft would routinely die prematurely and inexplicably. This, too, has been carefully explained to you. Please stop pretending otherwise.
<link-spam deleted>
No. I and others have looked at your regurgitated web sites, here and elsewhere, and responded to them. Collectively, they are a cautionary tale of grade-school physics fail.

Now it's your turn, you lazy hypocrite: you reflexively deny the explanations, or pretend they never happened, and then refuse to consider sources backed by actual practice, with real-world accountability. No more hiding: Describe, in your own words, what exactly is wrong with the science and engineering a small sample of which I've already provided to you. No hypocritical loyalty tests. No cherry-picking quotes. No appeals to equal ignorance. Use your own words, and state your assumptions, and show your work.


Oh, and one other thing: You said you live in Madrid, so you must not be far at all from Fresnedillas, right?
 
You people are putting forth the idea that I should study more of the official version of the nature and levels of space radiation before I talk about it. The theory is that the info you say I should study is bogus. There is alternative info that contradicts the official data. The only people who can be sure of the true nature and levels of space radiation are people with high security clearances. The rest of us have no way of knowing what the levels are.

The government lies about so many other things, so why should we just believe their info on space radiation? I have a link to some info on lies by the US government but I forbidden to link directly to it so click on this link and then click on the bottom link.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8033032&postcount=1

The link to the info is the second one from the bottom in post #1.

I'd better post the info on radiation from that thread to make sure all of the viewers see it.

http://ocii.com/~dpwozney/apollo5.htm
(excerpt)
--------------------------------------------------------
Herbert Friedman, in his book Sun and Earth, describes Van Allen's global survey of cosmic-ray intensity: "The results from Explorer I, launched on January 31, 1958, were so puzzling that instrument malfunction was suspected. High levels of radiation intensity appeared interspersed with dead gaps ... Explorer III succeeded fully, and most important, it carried a tape recorder. Simulation tests with intense X rays in the laboratory showed that the dead gaps represented periods when the Geiger counter in space had been choked by radiation of intensities a thousand times greater than the instrument was designed to detect. As Van Allen's colleague Ernie Ray exclaimed in disbelief: 'All space must be radioactive!'." Herbert Friedman later explains that "Of all the energy brought to the magnetosphere by the solar wind, only about 0.1 percent manages to cross the magnetic barrier."
--------------------------------------------------------

It's plausible that Van Allen had to start lying about what he knew when he started working for NASA.
http://www.buzzcreek.com/grade-a/MOON/articles1.htm
(excerpt)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Professor James A. Van Allen now 83, is Professor Emeritus in Geophysics at the University of Iowa. Our first question was why he did not speak up after NASA's claims and defend his original findings. Astonishingly, he told us that his seminal Scientific American article
in 1959 was merely "popular science."
"Are you refuting your findings?" we asked.

"Absolutely not," he answered, "I stand by them." In the next breath, Van Allen again acquiesced to NASA's point of view. He became positively mercurial in his answers. Basically he defended NASA's position that any material, even aluminum without shielding, was adequate to protect the astronauts from the radiation he once called deadly. When we asked him the point of his original warning about rushing through the Belt, he said, "It must have been a sloppy statement."

-------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.erichufschmid.net/MoreInfoForScienceChallenge.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2rotplZn0g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKB5u_VTt6M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcytzf7PkRA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6DhY1NvmIc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1ltWMbHdDU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnckudD9oa8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiTzo3G_hvo
---------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFiIR7hA1rM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toI1Xw9paW4
---------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xlKooAbKpM
(23 parts)

The anomalies in the footage and still pictures have already proven the hoax. The radiation issue isn't about whether they faked it. It's about why they faked it.

So, your argument here boils down to this: since the government HAS lied in the past, then they MUST be lying about SPAAAACE RAAADIIAATIIOOON!!!!

Great sleuthing!
 
From your link...

I debunk Wozney extensively at Clavius. And despite Wozney's continued activity in hoax advocacy, he has never once responded to my invitation for a debate or to my challenges to his claims. My conclusion is that Wozney is wrong, knows he's wrong (or at least wouldn't last long in a debate with real experts), but continues to write anyway. It's therefore not surprising that FF88 relies upon him. They are apparently operating from a similar vantage point deep under the sand.
 
I don't suppose that the Coilliers have any taped evidence that Van Allan said what they claim?

Van Allen is on record as saying specifically that the hoax claims are nonsense. I have in my files a signed letter from him to that effect. This is a non-starter. Hoax believers try to infer this or that, or to sew together different quotes from different times, all in the vain effort to make it seem like Van Allen's views on this subject are favorable to them, or at best are contradictory. All that simply flies in the face of Van Allen's clear statement that the hoax believers are spewing nonsense when they say radiation would have prevented Apollo astronauts from going to the Moon. He has directly and specifically repudiated the conspiracists' statements. Full stop.
 
WHy do HBs always think that NASA is the only organisation in the world with any data on 'space radiation'

Also do we need a poll on how many people think the Chinese spacewalk is a hoax?
 
The Russians pioneered work on what became known as the Van Allen belts, and it was only their political isolation that allowed Van Allen to get in their and get his name on them.

The Soviets never had an issue with radiation. I've seen a report somewhere (I'd have to dig it out) from a Russian author that concludes that radiation levels would not be an issue.

Of course they know that radiation levels in space are lethal and are only published all that research because they are paid by NASA to say so :rolleyes:
 
...

In fact, you must believe, reflexively and without evidence, that anyone who contradicts you is lying. This includes pretty much the entire space science, engineering, and operations community who, because of your desperate need to avoid considering that you might be wrong, must all be lying; millions of people over generations all lying and conspiring to hide the truth from DavidC the Brave Anonymous Internet Warrior for Truth.
...
I partially agree. Freddy doesn't "need" to consider everyone else a liar, he is simply mentally incapable of believing otherwise. Maybe that state initially arose from a need to ignore evidence, but it has long since reached the point of pathology. Ironically, this also means that he himself is not lying, since like many CTs, he is literally incapable of acknowledging or comprehending information or logic inimical to his positions, such as this "security clearance" nonsense. He cannot be lying, because he does not believe he can be wrong.

WHy do HBs always think that NASA is the only organisation in the world with any data on 'space radiation'
...

FoosM on ATM once wanted to know if anyone had corroborated NASA's results. When it was provided, he rejected it because the organizations in question had a connection to NASA.

Think about that for a second.
 
The Russians pioneered work on what became known as the Van Allen belts, and it was only their political isolation that allowed Van Allen to get in their and get his name on them.

The Soviets never had an issue with radiation. I've seen a report somewhere (I'd have to dig it out) from a Russian author that concludes that radiation levels would not be an issue.

Of course they know that radiation levels in space are lethal and are only published all that research because they are paid by NASA to say so :rolleyes:

The pdf is found here....

http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/864491/files/p484.pdf

It's all made up though, because my SatNav/Mobile Phone/Sky TV doesn't actually work because the "deadly radiation" knocked out all the satellites:rolleyes:
 
You people are putting forth the idea that I should study more of the official version of the nature and levels of space radiation before I talk about it. ...
As you have amply demonstrated, Fred, the idea that you, personally, need to actually know what you're talking about before you talk about it is clearly ridiculous.

The only people who can be sure of the true nature and levels of space radiation are people with high security clearances.
As has already been pointed out, all modern spacecraft are built using this falsified data, meaning they should not be able to function. Simple logic proves you wrong, before even getting into your lack of evidence for the claim.

The government lies about so many other things, so why should we just believe their info on space radiation?
Or, for that measure, weights and measures. Who do you think regulates the clock in your computer, Fred? The portions at your grocer's, the gas in your mom's tank? How can we be certain they're telling the truth about anything?

This is called Reductio ad Absurdum, Fred. The way we know is that their data has been corroborated by who knows how many other countries, schools, and private individuals, over and over again, for forty-odd years, including those who would have everything to gain by exposing the hoax, such as the USSR, which even confirmed the US moon rocks were real. There are people currently building private spacecraft based on this "falsified" data without any clearance whatsoever. Richard Branson sure doesn't have any kind of Deep Black Ultraviolet Megablue Backflip 007 Mobius Double Reacharound Clearance.

Is this a favored tactic of yours? Just ignore all the counterpoints, make snide insinuations about debunkers, and restate your already debunked claims?
 
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Is this a favored tactic of yours? Just ignore all the counterpoints, make snide insinuations about debunkers, and restate your already debunked claims?

I'm shocked you would even say this. Conspiracy theorists NEVER do that.
 
You people are putting forth the idea that I should study more of the official version of the nature and levels of space radiation before I talk about it. The theory is that the info you say I should study is bogus. There is alternative info that contradicts the official data. The only people who can be sure of the true nature and levels of space radiation are people with high security clearances. The rest of us have no way of knowing what the levels are.

In other words since you made up a scenario in which the entire scientific community has been lied to concerning radiation levels and types in space, and further supposed that it is at least as plausible as the opposite; to whit; that space radiation levels and science is correct in the publically available literature, and others are just supposed to believe you because you say its so?
That is truly bad logic, you have absolutly no evidence that your scenraio is correct and yet you automatically accept it because others with the same ignorance you display on the subject of radiation say its so.
You know basically nothing about the feild of space radiation as publically available and yet you automatically reject it despite the entirety of space technology having successfully relied on it for the past 6 decades.
So sad for you.

The government lies about so many other things, so why should we just believe their info on space radiation? I have a link to some info on lies by the US government but I forbidden to link directly to it so click on this link and then click on the bottom link.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8033032&postcount=1

yes, yes, a link to a link to a link none of which illustrates that anyone postulating this scenario has any credibility or evidence or science to back it up. Instead we are to believe people who demonstrate a lack of knowledge of the basic nature of radiation, and the enviroment in space.

I'd better post the info on radiation from that thread to make sure all of the viewers see it.

http://ocii.com/~dpwozney/apollo5.htm
(excerpt)
--------------------------------------------------------
Herbert Friedman, in his book Sun and Earth, describes Van Allen's global survey of cosmic-ray intensity: "The results from Explorer I, launched on January 31, 1958, were so puzzling that instrument malfunction was suspected. High levels of radiation intensity appeared interspersed with dead gaps ... Explorer III succeeded fully, and most important, it carried a tape recorder. Simulation tests with intense X rays in the laboratory showed that the dead gaps represented periods when the Geiger counter in space had been choked by radiation of intensities a thousand times greater than the instrument was designed to detect. As Van Allen's colleague Ernie Ray exclaimed in disbelief: 'All space must be radioactive!'." Herbert Friedman later explains that "Of all the energy brought to the magnetosphere by the solar wind, only about 0.1 percent manages to cross the magnetic barrier."
--------------------------------------------------------

Which says nothing about the ability to sheild humans against this radiation enough to allow space flight
Perhaps you'd care to post something that does?

It's plausible that Van Allen had to start lying about what he knew when he started working for NASA.
http://www.buzzcreek.com/grade-a/MOON/articles1.htm
(excerpt)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Professor James A. Van Allen now 83, is Professor Emeritus in Geophysics at the University of Iowa. Our first question was why he did not speak up after NASA's claims and defend his original findings. Astonishingly, he told us that his seminal Scientific American article
in 1959 was merely "popular science."
"Are you refuting your findings?" we asked.

"Absolutely not," he answered, "I stand by them." In the next breath, Van Allen again acquiesced to NASA's point of view. He became positively mercurial in his answers. Basically he defended NASA's position that any material, even aluminum without shielding, was adequate to protect the astronauts from the radiation he once called deadly. When we asked him the point of his original warning about rushing through the Belt, he said, "It must have been a sloppy statement."

Only "plausible" if one knows next to nothing about the nature of space radiation. Indeed if one were to be placed naked in space then the radiation would be deadly(setting aside the fact that the vaccum itself would be as well).
THAT is IIRC the 'sloppiness' that Van Allen is referring to. Yes, particle radiation can easily be sheilded by a relatively light layer of polymer. X-ray and gamma ray require better sheilding but that is unaffected by our magnetosphere and therefore NOT what was being referred to in your earlier quote ("Of all the energy brought to the magnetosphere by the solar wind, only about 0.1 percent manages to cross the magnetic barrier.") in this post.
-------------------------------------------------------------

The anomalies in the footage and still pictures have already proven the hoax. The radiation issue isn't about whether they faked it. It's about why they faked it.

Anomolies in your own mind do not make them actual anomolies.
The FACT that you have little to no demonstrable grasp of radiation bodes ill for anyone's taking you seriously on any other technical topic. Radiation danger is the foundation of your entire premise. It is the reason why the missions were supoosedly faked and yet you demonstrate ignorance and the willingness to accept ignorant postulations from others on this point.

Why should anyone believe anything you have to say when you demonstrate ignorance in this part of the issue, the foundation on which you build your case?
 
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You people are putting forth the idea that I should study more of the official version of the nature and levels of space radiation before I talk about it. The theory is that the info you say I should study is bogus. There is alternative info that contradicts the official data. The only people who can be sure of the true nature and levels of space radiation are people with high security clearances. The rest of us have no way of knowing what the levels are.

Freddy, you are flat-out wrong here. I worked on a nano-satellite building team during my years at university. This was part of a university competition sponsored by the US Air Force. Surely someone in the Air Force has access to the "real" numbers and would've said something if our designs did not correspond to reality, but the only commentary on our proposal was ensuring we dealt with backout protection for our mounting hardware. Nothing whatsoever to do with radiation hardening or lack thereof. Now tell me, how could a bunch of undergrad students perfectly nail a satellite design without access to real radiation data?
 
What I still havent had answered ever, but maybe this time FF88 will do so..
Why?
Why would a million people or more, over the course of several generations consitently and without anyone breaking from the fold lie about a manned flight into space/to the moon?

Because from where I sit this is serious underpants gnomes logic.
Lie about manned flights
????
Profit!

Even if you were proven right, *nothing* in the world would change, so why bother?
 
Haven't any of these people been up on charges for anything at some point? Being able to provide evidence of a conspiracy to defraud the public out of billions would likely get anyone off of anything up to and including capital murder.

I had an Apollo denier on another board tell me that the Obama administration faked every space mission from Apollo to ISS! Lol

Wow. Obama must've been one devious 7-year old.
 
(from post #8600)
You failed to provide the requested proof that I am a paid government disinformation agent.
You said that you knew from experience that just transporting and placing dust-free sand would cause enough erosion to create a dust cloud when the sand is driven over.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8135606&postcount=7907
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8144391&postcount=7990

All the people I know with backgrounds in geology laughed when I told them about that.

Also, your position on the Chinese spacewalk is that it was real when any seventh grader can see that it was faked.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8452301&postcount=8545

You obviously don't believe your own arguments. That's only circumstantial evidence but who else would say such lame things?

You also refused to address the flag issue and the issue of the swinging jacket corner when the astronauts were supposed to be in zero-G
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8033032&postcount=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymwE1sNm82Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7yc2rVOs00

It's so clear that footage was faked that you don't even dare address it. Your behavior is the classic behavior of a disinfo agent. Why else would you behave that way?
 
Haven't any of these people been up on charges for anything at some point? Being able to provide evidence of a conspiracy to defraud the public out of billions would likely get anyone off of anything up to and including capital murder.



Wow. Obama must've been one devious 7-year old.

Either that or time travel. :P

Yeah, that's it. They can't safely get man to the moon, but they can send a man, one very special man, back through time!
 
(from post #8600)

You said that you knew from experience that just transporting and placing dust-free sand would cause enough erosion to create a dust cloud when the sand is driven over.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8135606&postcount=7907
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8144391&postcount=7990

All the people I know with backgrounds in geology laughed when I told them about that.

The problem in this statement is bolded for your convenience. A geologist, or more properly "someone with a background in geology" since I doubt you know any true geologists, does not have experience with the practical applications of transporting sand. That is the province of engineers.

ETA: As for the rest of your post, which I won't bother to quote, did you ever stop to think that perhaps your old tired rehashed arguments aren't being addressed because they've been addressed dozens of times already? Equally, your statement that "You obviously don't believe your own arguments" is a flat-out lie and I know Jay has demanded you either prove it or retract it. Just repeating the claim does not make it true.
 
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...your position on the Chinese spacewalk is that it was real when any seventh grader can see that it was faked.

The Chinese spacewalk was real. Your position on it is hilarious.


<edit> PS Does anyone know why it is that FF88 needs to believe the Chinese didn't make a spacewalk? Would it undermine his Apollo fantasy in some way, or does he just think the Chinese simply couldn't achieve such a thing despite being the world's second largest economy and the US and Soviet Union having achieved it half a century ago?
 
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The problem in this statement is bolded for your convenience. A geologist, or more properly "someone with a background in geology" since I doubt you know any true geologists, does not have experience with the practical applications of transporting sand. That is the province of engineers.

ETA: As for the rest of your post, which I won't bother to quote, did you ever stop to think that perhaps your old tired rehashed arguments aren't being addressed because they've been addressed dozens of times already? Equally, your statement that "You obviously don't believe your own arguments" is a flat-out lie and I know Jay has demanded you either prove it or retract it. Just repeating the claim does not make it true.

The Moon is actually made out of Stilton, I know that for a fact I have talked with learned people with a background in Stiltonology and the study of all interstellar cheesy substances.
 
<edit> PS Does anyone know why it is that FF88 needs to believe the Chinese didn't make a spacewalk? Would it undermine his Apollo fantasy in some way, or does he just think the Chinese simply couldn't achieve such a thing despite being the world's second largest economy and the US and Soviet Union having achieved it half a century ago?


It's for purposes of his loyalty test. In his mind, as soon as you say you believe the Chinese space walk happened as advertised, he has a handy excuse to ignore everything else you say, because, again in his mind, it's so blatantly obvious that it was faked that only a disinformation agent would claim otherwise. :rolleyes:
 
(from post #8600)You said that you knew from experience that just transporting and placing dust-free sand would cause enough erosion to create a dust cloud when the sand is driven over.

Yes. I have that experience, and you have done absolutely nothing to undermine or refute that. Everyone sees this but you.

All the people I know with backgrounds in geology laughed when I told them about that.

Irrelevant. Geology does not concern itself with the manufacture, handling, and transportation of milled aggregates. "People with backgrounds in geology" are not relevant experts. None described having any experience handling aggregates. I explained this earlier, but you ignored it entirely.

Also, your position on the Chinese spacewalk is that it was real when any seventh grader can see that it was faked.

No, you simply beg that question. In any case it's another one of your meaningless loyalty tests that has nothing to do with your Moon hoax claims. It's simply another excuse for you to ignore your critics.

You obviously don't believe your own arguments. That's only circumstantial evidence but who else would say such lame things?

I'm glad that you admit your "evidence" is actually just your inference. Who else would say such things? Someone who, despite your lies and delusions, actually does believe his own arguments. Your delusions to the contrary do not constitute a basis for calling me a liar, and your admission that your evidence is indirect at best is suitable proof that your misrepresentation is deliberate. Hence I continue to hold you personally responsible for your deliberate and libelous misrepresentation of me.

You also refused to address the flag issue...

No, I refuse to debate you because you are delusional. There's a difference between having an interest in the issue and realizing that one's opponent is delusional beyond reach.

There will be no debate with you on any point so long as you continue to accuse me of not believing my own arguments and of being a paid disinformation agent, for which you admit you have no evidence.

It's so clear that footage was faked that you don't even dare address it.

Again, begging the question. I don't debate you on the flag issue because debate with you is pointless. You have absolutely no interest in what I might have to say on the issue. Based on past experience with you, anything I say would be dismissed as disinformation regardless of how well-argued it is, and you will simply use it as another example of how disagreement with you means others are necessarily lying.

Your behavior is the classic behavior of a disinfo agent. Why else would you behave that way?

I have explained my behavior. You simply choose to believe otherwise. Thank you for admitting that you have absolutely no direct evidence that I am a disinformation agent and that you are simply inferring it.

I will give you one last chance to provide evidence or retract your claim before I take action to redress your deliberate lies. Put up or shut up.
 
Your behavior is the classic behavior of a disinfo agent. Why else would you behave that way?

You're kidding. You really can't think of any other reason? Really?

Maybe it is because Jay has the knowledge and experience (which you clearly lack) to know Apollo happened as advertised, and you are plain flat out wrong.
 
A geologist, or more properly "someone with a background in geology" since I doubt you know any true geologists, does not have experience with the practical applications of transporting sand. That is the province of engineers.

FF88 has been pushing his Magic Sand theory for more than 5 years. He's been told by three different professional engineers that it won't work, and the detailed reasons why. But naturally he dismissed their expertise because they wouldn't agree with him that 9/11 was an inside job. No really, that was the reason.

His "expert" testimony to the contrary is the anonymous postings of people on a geology web forum who, incidentally, also think he's nuts for believing in hoaxed Moon landings. He left that part out. Apparently he fails their loyalty test, but that doesn't stop him from misusing their statements.
 
Quote:
You failed to provide the requested proof that I am a paid government disinformation agent
.
{SPAM links removed}

You said that you knew from experience that just transporting and placing dust-free sand would cause enough erosion to create a dust cloud when the sand is driven over.

All the people I know with backgrounds in geology laughed when I told them about that.

Also, your position on the Chinese spacewalk is that it was real when any seventh grader can see that it was faked.

You obviously don't believe your own arguments. That's only circumstantial evidence but who else would say such lame things?

You also refused to address the flag issue and the issue of the swinging jacket corner when the astronauts were supposed to be in zero-G

It's so clear that footage was faked that you don't even dare address it. Your behavior is the classic behavior of a disinfo agent. Why else would you behave that way?

IOW you do not have any evidence other than your personal opinion.

Got it;)
 
FF88 has been pushing his Magic Sand theory for more than 5 years. He's been told by three different professional engineers that it won't work, and the detailed reasons why. But naturally he dismissed their expertise because they wouldn't agree with him that 9/11 was an inside job. No really, that was the reason.

His "expert" testimony to the contrary is the anonymous postings of people on a geology web forum who, incidentally, also think he's nuts for believing in hoaxed Moon landings. He left that part out. Apparently he fails their loyalty test, but that doesn't stop him from misusing their statements.

Yeah, I'm well aware of Freddy's requirement that one agree with him before he will accept any of one's other statements. You see, Freddy, I have read the thread, I am familiar with your tactics, and I am not a sockpuppet of any other member here, as I believe you made a veiled reference to when the old lurkers poll was brought up (which I also voted in, btw). But of course, because I fail whichever loyalty test you would choose to apply, I know you won't believe me.
 
Two mutually exclusive statements illustrating that FF88 does not allow for opinion contradictory to his own.
.....anyone who tries to obfuscate it or refuses to address the issue is obviously less-than-objective and therefore unfit to analyze the Apollo footage and pictures.

...........The viewers can decide for themselves.

(from post #8600)

You obviously don't believe your own arguments.

The irony makes my head swim. :eek:
 
(from post #8600)

You said that you knew from experience that just transporting and placing dust-free sand would cause enough erosion to create a dust cloud when the sand is driven over...
All the people I know with backgrounds in geology laughed when I told them about that.
Really? Who did you talk to? Because going back to post 7985, one guy seemed to agree with you; others disagreed or had inconclusive opinions; another guy whose endorsement you assumed said "the moon hoax is a stupid idea" and that you were "putting words in [his] mouth". (Note that you said "Putting words in someone's mouth is a very low tactic", so shame on you.)

1. What other persons with "backgrounds in geology" have you talked with, and what are their qualifications?
2. Why is geology the most relevant discipline for evaluating this question?
3. Why did you trumpet the apparent endorsement of one source but not mention the explicit disavowal of another?

You obviously don't believe your own arguments. That's only circumstantial evidence but who else would say such lame things?...
...Your behavior is the classic behavior of a disinfo agent. Why else would you behave that way?

OK, let's evaluate your behavior according to your criteria:

...an ability to persevere and persist even in the face of overwhelming criticism and non-acceptance.
This fits you perfectly: You have been posting the same thing for years. Everywhere where you post, you get told you are wrong - even the "lurkers" you claimed support you have overwhelmingly rejected your arguments, and several have directly questioned your sanity. But you persist in repeating yourself and spamming the same links over and over again.

This likely stems from intelligence community training that, no matter how condemning the evidence, deny everything,...
"We can't know that." "That evidence could be faked." "It never went there." "We don't know that." "Everything they say is a lie." "You can't say that you believe that with a straight face."

All in the face of detailed explanations by informed laymen - which you are not - and by actual experts with hands-on space flight experience.

Yes, this one fits you perfectly too.

...no amount of criticism will deter them from doing their job, and they will generally continue their old disinfo patterns without any adjustments to criticisms of how obvious it is that they play that game -- where a more rational individual who truly cares what others think might seek to improve their communications style, substance, and so forth.

Again, this is you exactly. In your years of posting, you have never altered your pattern of behavior, never altered your fanatical insistence that anyone who disagrees with you is a liar, never taken the time to learn anything about the science or engineering involved, and you constantly spam the same links over and over again. You continually dodge questions, misrepresent answers, and regurgitate the same claims from random web sites, even when they contradict you.

rocky/DavidC/FF88/etc. said:
You people have authoritative patronizing attitudes...
"If I were in your place, I'd probably use the same avoidance tactic as it attracts less attention. It's pretty clear that you know as well as hoax-believers that the moon missions were faked, or you wouldn't avoid these clear impossible-to-obfuscate-without-looking-silly issues."
"None of you has any credibility. All of you obviously know that the moon missions were faked as well as the hoax-believers do."
"Any sixth-grader could see this."

Yes, that's you alright.

You clearly fit your criteria for being a "disinfo agent", and since you spend so much time on so many web sites vomiting third-hand arguments, you must be getting paid to do so. Don't whine about it; I'm using your reasoning.

4. According to your criteria, you are a paid disinformation agent. Can you prove otherwise?

Worst of all, you continually employ that tool used by repressive regimes and anti-free thought thugs everywhere to stifle dissent and demonize the opposition: the loyalty test. "If you don't believe this video is a fraud, you are a liar". "If you agree with his opinion, you obviously don't believe what you are saying."

Where have I heard that before? Let's see, "If you're not with us, you're against us."

You hypocrite.

5. Please explain why you rely on loyalty tests while you lambaste others for not being free thinkers.

Oh, and in case you haven't noticed it the first umpty-ump times I've asked,

6. You've said you live in Madrid. So you must not be far at all from Fresnedillas, right?
 
Yeah, I'm well aware of Freddy's requirement that one agree with him before he will accept any of one's other statements. You see, Freddy, I have read the thread, I am familiar with your tactics, and I am not a sockpuppet of any other member here, as I believe you made a veiled reference to when the old lurkers poll was brought up (which I also voted in, btw). But of course, because I fail whichever loyalty test you would choose to apply, I know you won't believe me.

Twice now I have also 'failed' his loyalty test by simply not answering. Not only must one not disagree with him, one must publically declare agreement, otherwise one is automatically disloyal and not objective.
 
What's so significant about Fresnedillas?

*Googles*

I mean, aside from it having a tracking station that followed the Apollo missions.
 
Yes let's look at that old Mike Collins jacket baloney, not in terms of the behaviour of the jacket (which as any other 7 year old girl can see is behaving perfectly consistently with a zero gravity environment as experienced in cislunar space), but in terms of the way the evidence is cherry picked and taken out of context to tell lies.

Collins' exercise sequence is taken from a broadcast to Earth made 30 hours into the mission. You can see the footage that was recorded from that broadcast in the Apollo 11 facts project video available on youtube and also for download here http://archive.org/details/VJSC_1425H

The segment featuring the jacket actually starts about 32 minutes and 35 seconds into the video compilation, and for a good few minutes is just continuous footage of Buzz faffing about with the camera. The first voice comms come in at 35:55 with capcom's "Houston Apollo 11", which can be timed from the transcript as 30h51m11s.

There is movement in the background, which is Collins starting his exercise routine. We then have continuous footage (from a camera being thrown around) showing him running on the spot, even when the camera is focussed on Armstrong trying to turn in zero G to show off the mission patch. That particular sequence ends at 39:15 in the video, or 30h54m27s.

The next sequence in the broadcast shows the Earth. We'll deal with that in a moment, and the audio confirms that there has been a gap of roughly 4 minutes between the end of the exercise clip and the footage of Earth. After much messing with the camera and discussion of the image quality, the broadcast ends with a long clip, starting with that same view of Earth and ending inside the LM and showing some nice weightless astronauts. At the end of the clip the mission time is 31h14m47s and the video clip time is 49:47, so we have about 25 minutes of mission time covered by just over 17 minutes of video. During that time we have footage of weightless astronauts and a couple of clips of Earth.

Goldstone in California are the ones receiving the video, and this is referred to in the audio, so we should be able to see California right? And obviously at this time in the mission (call it 20:45 GMT towards the end of the broadcast) the sun would be setting over the south American coast.

Is that confirmed by what you can see on the view of Earth? And is that view of Earth consistent with what the satellite imagery says should be there? It's back to the little gem again:

littlegem.jpg


So I'm sorry fatty, but I'm afraid I have failed your loyalty test. I'd rather fail that than fail at presenting a discredited argument.
 
Twice now I have also 'failed' his loyalty test by simply not answering.

Yes, if you don't give any answer, then that proves you're unwilling to prove your loyalty and he'll assume a disfavorable answer on your behalf.

Five years ago, on the question of 9/11 being an inside job, I refused to answer. On those grounds alone FF88 concluded I was not trustworthy enough to listen to on the subject of the behavior of aggregate particulates (i.e., his Magic Sand theory). His insistence that I had to weigh in on his 9/11 conspiracy theory before he would address my rebuttal led to his ban from that forum.

Since then, under various pseudonyms, he has roamed the 'net telling everyone who'll listen just what a despicable person I am, borrowing liberally of course from Jarrah White who's been trying to beat that hateful drum since 2004. How delighted he must be to have found someone "with knowledge" who he can say agrees with him (even if he has to put words in the guy's mouth to do it) against the evil Jay Windley. In his mind, this vindicates his previous ban and validates his Magic Sand theory.

On the subject of the Chinese spacewalk, I haven't said anything. As promised, I completely ignored his frantic demands that I render an opinion. That hasn't stopped him from assuming that I consider it genuine and from beating me over the head (again) with his accusations solely because the position he inferred for me didn't match his inextricably entrenched belief.

It's either disturbing or amusing (depending on your perspective) that he continues to ask me by name for my opinions on his various assertions. It's obvious he doesn't care what I think. It's obvious he already dismisses everything I say as paid disinfo. So why the continued personal obsession over me?
 
It's either disturbing or amusing (depending on your perspective) that he continues to ask me by name for my opinions on his various assertions. It's obvious he doesn't care what I think. It's obvious he already dismisses everything I say as paid disinfo. So why the continued personal obsession over me?

Because if he can catch the great Jay Windley in a lie, well, by golly, that obviously proves that Apollo is a hoax. Yet again. Somehow.
 
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