The plans of God

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Rincewind said:
And when have any of us claimed to be in the court of Athens?
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Just now, I did...

This forum is a bit like the courtyard at Athens my friend.

It was an allegory...
"
phi·los·o·phy (f -l s -f ). n. pl. phi·los·o·phies. 1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline
"


If you embrace philosophy then you are a philosopher, you don't have to get a degree from Stanford, lighten up.
 
josh3623 said:
Just now, I did...

This forum is a bit like the courtyard at Athens my friend.

It was an allegory...
"
phi·los·o·phy (f -l s -f ). n. pl. phi·los·o·phies. 1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline
"


If you embrace philosophy then you are a philosopher, you don't have to get a degree from Stanford, lighten up.
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Are you going to make a point in this thread, or just continue to feel superior? Here is my point. No gods, no divine plans.
 
josh3623 said:
LOL. (Double sigh)....
I am not falling into that trap.. And I wouldn't. I have already stated that my belief in a Designer is not truly scientific but more instinctual... Call it a hunch, if you will.

What I am saying is that the Athiest has the same unscientific hunch that I do, except in the opposite direction.


Both the Agnostic and the Athiest say "I do not Believe in God".

But the Atheist goes 1 step further and says unequivically "I Believe that God does not Exist."

This is the pivotal statement that takes a leap of faith and is in fact just as unscientific as the leap of faith "I believe that God does exist."


I would say that I do not believe in a flat world. There is nothing unscientific about this... But the moment I try to say that I believe that flat worlds do not exist...Well then I have stepped into the realm of faith.
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No, My reality is congruent with the evidence.

There is a very big difference between saying "I don't believe X exists" and "X does not exist".

I do not believe in rabbits that can sprout wings.

Should I revise my claim because of the slim chance in some galaxy on some planet one might exist? No. Until proper evidence is given I will not believe in fairy tales and the imaginations of others.
 
dafydd said:
We have yet another believer who does not know the meaning of the word ''atheist''.
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It is becoming a daily event. Clueless believer who has no idea about atheism makes up own definition and has then already lost any discussion or argument they were trying to have.

I wonder if there is any chance of getting josh to interact with reality?
 
Paulhoff said:
Freewill has nothing to do with evolution. ...



:) :) :)
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LOL. Freewill has everything to do with evolution, you see, we evolved from a bunch of little critters, who were all making quadrillions of little decisions over billions of years, the culmination of those myriad decisions being... You Guessed it, Humanity, and we are still making choices, and it is these choices quite literally which are driving evolution, ie, someone chooses to skydive, his parachute does not open hence he winds up squashed like a bug and for this reason does not pass his genes on, this will have a minute effect on the evolution of humankind, but collectively every decision made by every human becomes the major driving feature generationally of evolution, most important, it is the sexual decisions we make that primarily drive evolution, ie, who do we decide to have children with.
 
We are all atheists to one degree or another. You can either be an atheist or pantheist. If you only believe in one god or group of gods then you are atheistic to all other gods. Forgive my cloddish endeavour to expound and elucidate my postulations on this subject, I am not a philosopher.
 
josh3623 said:
LOL. Freewill has everything to do with evolution, you see, we evolved from a bunch of little critters, who were all making quadrillions of little decisions over billions of years, the culmination of those myriad decisions being... You Guessed it, Humanity, and we are still making choices, and it is these choices quite literally which are driving evolution, ie, someone chooses to skydive, his parachute does not open hence he winds up squashed like a bug and for this reason does not pass his genes on, this will have a minute effect on the evolution of humankind, but collectively every decision made by every human becomes the major driving feature generationally of evolution, most important, it is the sexual decisions we make that primarily drive evolution, ie, who do we decide to have children with.
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Try reading up on evolution. Perhaps the bit about random mutations of genes. Do you believe that the Hindu pantheon of gods actually exists, or are you part atheist?
 
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RoboTimbo said:
I asked you scientist to define the god(s) you believe in. You didn't even attempt to swing the hammer.
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I said I was not going to fall into that trap...

I am not trying to convince you of anything. I believe that the universe has a complex design, hence there must be some intelligence behind this brilliant and complex design...

That's all, I don't go any further than that, because I really don't know...

Define God? it would be much easier to define the universe and I can't even do that...
 
dafydd said:
Try reading up on evolution. Perhaps the bit about random mutations of genes. Do you believe that the Hindu pantheon of gods actually exists, or are you part atheist?
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Trust me I have read up on it plenty, and I believe all creatures have a sort of freewill, even bugs, they have many choices, but these choices will always be limited, hence all living creatures have a limited sort of freewill much like our own, the choices that these creatures make determines if and how they procreate which in turn affects the genepool and it is this multitude of decisions which ultimately drives evolution. Darwin originally suggested this in "Origin of the Species". If you have never heard of it, I would suggest you google "Mate Choice"


I don't believe they exist, but I certainly would not deny their existence, so I guess this makes me part agnostic...
 
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josh3623 said:
Trust me I have read up on it plenty, and I believe all creatures have a sort of freewill, even bugs, they have many choices, but these choices will always be limited, hence all living creatures have a limited sort of freewill much like our own, the choices that these creatures make determines if and how they procreate which in turn affects the genepool and it is this multitude of decisions which ultimately drives evolution.
I don't believe they exist, but I certainly would not deny their existence, so I guess this makes me part agnostic...
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What about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy?
 
josh3623 said:
I believe all creatures have a sort of freewill, even bugs, they have many choices, but these choices will always be limited, hence all living creatures have a limited sort of freewill much like our own, "

...
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If freewill is limited, it is not freewill.
 
kerikiwi said:
If freewill is limited, it is not freewill.
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Well that depends on how you define it. Perhaps my definition of freewill is looser than yours.

I breed dogs for example. I keep my main stud with several bitches and he chooses which one to have puppies with, this decision in turn effects the genepool of my brood of dogs...

My Stud, lets call him spot, actually has a set of choices, but he is locked in my yard, so those choices are more limited than they would be if he had say, run of the whole neighborhood.

My point is that, some of us have more free will than others
 
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josh3623 said:
I don't believe they exist, but I certainly would not deny their existence, so I guess this makes me part agnostic...
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No, this part - "I don't believe they exist" - means you are atheistic about them. I understand you not wanting to fall into a trap of providing evidence for something that doesn't exist.

I'll try to explain the difference between theist/atheist and gnostic/agnostic again.

Atheist/theist is a measure of belief. If you don't believe in god(s), you are an atheist. If you believe in one or more god(s), you are a theist.

Gnostic/agnostic is a measure of knowledge. If you say, "I KNOW god exists." you are a gnostic theist. If you say, "I DON'T KNOW if any god(s) exist but I don't believe in any of them" you are an agnostic atheist. Here are the possible combinations:

Agnostic atheist
Gnostic atheist
Agnostic theist
Gnostic theist

in order of the number of letters that make them up.
 
josh3623 said:
I hear you man, but I do not feel superior, I just don't quite agree with you.
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I may have got the wrong impression. You seemed to be implying that you were a cut above mere theists and atheists with your talk of a designer. A designer would be a god.
 
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RoboTimbo said:
No, this part - "I don't believe they exist" - means you are atheistic about them. I understand you not wanting to fall into a trap of providing evidence for something that doesn't exist.

I'll try to explain the difference between theist/atheist and gnostic/agnostic again.

Atheist/theist is a measure of belief. If you don't believe in god(s), you are an atheist. If you believe in one or more god(s), you are a theist.

Gnostic/agnostic is a measure of knowledge. If you say, "I KNOW god exists." you are a gnostic theist. If you say, "I DON'T KNOW if any god(s) exist but I don't believe in any of them" you are an agnostic atheist. Here are the possible combinations:

Agnostic atheist
Gnostic atheist
Agnostic theist
Gnostic theist

in order of the number of letters that make them up.
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Is there no room for me, a skeptic atheist?
 
dafydd said:
I may have got the wrong impression. You seemed to be implying that you were a cut above mere theists and atheists with your talk of a designer. A designer would be a god.
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You totally misunderstood me, I was merely stating that of the 3 major outlooks of God's existence or non existance being
1)Theistic- God Does Exist
2)Atheistic-God Does not Exist
3)Agnostic- I do not know

I was just saying that out of these 3 veiwpoints, my Theistic belief in a designer is no less scientific than an Atheists denial of one, and that out of any of the 3 positions, it is the agnostic position of "I do not know" which is the most scientific...

Although I personally choose the theistic outlook, of these three I would not say that any one position is superior to the other.
 
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josh3623 said:
You totally misunderstood me, I was merely stating that of the 3 major outlooks of God's existence or non existance being
1)Theistic- God Does Exist
2)Atheistic-God Does not Exist
3)Agnostic- I do not know

Out of these 3 veiwpoints, my Theistic belief in a designer is no less scientific than an Atheists denial of one, and that out of any of the 3 positions, it is the agnostic position of "I do not know" which is the most scientific...

Although I personally choose the theistic outlook, of these three I would not say that any one position is superior to the other.
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No, you've got it incorrect again. I'll try to explain it again.

Atheist/Theist measures belief. Theists believe in one or more gods. Atheists don't.

Agnostic/Gnostic measure knowledge. Gnostics know either that god does or does not exist. Agnostics don't know whether god exists or not.

Theists could be agnostic. Your posts indicate that you're missing that important point.
 
josh3623 said:
I said I was not going to fall into that trap...

I am not trying to convince you of anything. I believe that the universe has a complex design, hence there must be some intelligence behind this brilliant and complex design...
That's all, I don't go any further than that, because I really don't know...

Define God? it would be much easier to define the universe and I can't even do that...
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Why?
 
josh3623 said:
You totally misunderstood me, I was merely stating that of the 3 major outlooks of God's existence or non existance being
1)Theistic- God Does Exist
2)Atheistic-God Does not Exist
3)Agnostic- I do not know

I was just saying that out of these 3 veiwpoints, my Theistic belief in a designer is no less scientific than an Atheists denial of one, and that out of any of the 3 positions, it is the agnostic position of "I do not know" which is the most scientific...

Although I personally choose the theistic outlook, of these three I would not say that any one position is superior to the other.
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Wrong. My atheism is firmly based on science. Believers only have faith. Which one of the three are you? If you are a Christian then you believe in one more god than I do.
 
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josh3623 said:
You totally misunderstood me, I was merely stating that of the 3 major outlooks of God's existence or non existance being
1)Theistic- God Does Exist
2)Atheistic-God Does not Exist
3)Agnostic- I do not know
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Still wrong. Not paying attention. 0/10.
 
RoboTimbo said:
I'll try to explain the difference between theist/atheist and gnostic/agnostic again.

Atheist/theist is a measure of belief. If you don't believe in god(s), you are an atheist. If you believe in one or more god(s), you are a theist.

Gnostic/agnostic is a measure of knowledge. If you say, "I KNOW god exists." you are a gnostic theist. If you say, "I DON'T KNOW if any god(s) exist but I don't believe in any of them" you are an agnostic atheist. Here are the possible combinations:

Agnostic atheist
Gnostic atheist
Agnostic theist
Gnostic theist

in order of the number of letters that make them up.
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It's as if some people--josh3623 being the latest of many--misunderstand this on purpose, despite it being explained to them again and again.
 
AdMan said:
It's as if some people--josh3623 being the latest of many--misunderstand this on purpose, despite it being explained to them again and again.
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I think it is deliberate, the concept isn't that had to understand.
 
dafydd said:
I think it is deliberate, the concept isn't that had to understand.
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I'm starting to think, For them, It is.

The notion that people not only don't agree with the notion of their invisible sky fairy but then have the audacity to try and convince them its nonsense too? Shudder the thought.
 
josh3623 said:
Well that depends on how you define it. Perhaps my definition of freewill is looser than yours.

I breed dogs for example. I keep my main stud with several bitches and he chooses which one to have puppies with, this decision in turn effects the genepool of my brood of dogs...

My Stud, lets call him spot, actually has a set of choices, but he is locked in my yard, so those choices are more limited than they would be if he had say, run of the whole neighborhood.

My point is that, some of us have more free will than others
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No. There is either free will or there is not.
You can't just have a little bit, or a lot. You either have it or you don't. Rather like your bitches being in pup. They either are, or they are not. They are not a little bit in pup.
 
josh3623 said:
You totally misunderstood me, I was merely stating that of the 3 major outlooks of God's existence or non existance being
1)Theistic- God Does Exist
2)Atheistic-God Does not Exist
3)Agnostic- I do not know

I was just saying that out of these 3 veiwpoints, my Theistic belief in a designer is no less scientific than an Atheists denial of one, and that out of any of the 3 positions, it is the agnostic position of "I do not know" which is the most scientific...

Although I personally choose the theistic outlook, of these three I would not say that any one position is superior to the other.
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As RoboTimbo has repeatedly pointed out, you're using a common, but incorrect definition of atheism to tell atheists what they think. Perhaps you'd be better understanding Robo's definition to discover what atheists actually claim. There's no faith required.
 
Paulhoff said:
Freewill has nothing to do with evolution.

One, there is no freewill, I do not have unlimited choices.

Two, there is no god of the bible and nothing in the bible shows that it in anyway acts anything other than a childish non-god.

If it was a real god, no one could change a word of its so-called bible, and everyone could read it without translation.

Now that would show a real god.

Paul


:) :) :)
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If you carefully read http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8647983&postcount=2539 you find that freewill is (by analogy) simply the ability to transform a rod into a staff (which is based on the beautiful awareness that rod and staff are actually two possible results of a one thing) which increases the further development of freewill.

You do not need unlimited choices in order to do that.

Once again, you contradict yourself if you claim that you have no freewill, because in this case you do not have the ability to reject or accept anything (where in this thread the discussed thing is God's bible).

Paulhoff, you actually do not have any meaningful difference between anyone who gets God's bible only in terms of the shallow awareness of "the man in the sky" that does the job for you because (according to your own evidence) you have no freewill.
 
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doronshadmi said:
Paulhoff, you actually do not have any meaningful difference between anyone who gets God's bible only in terms of the shallow awareness of "the man in the sky" that does the job for you because (according to your own evidence) you have no freewill.
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Freewill does not mean evidence for a god.





Paul




:) :) :)
 
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josh3623 said:
LOL. (Double sigh)....
I am not falling into that trap.. And I wouldn't. I have already stated that my belief in a Designer is not truly scientific but more instinctual... Call it a hunch, if you will.
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So unsupported nonsense then.

josh3623 said:
What I am saying is that the Athiest has the same unscientific hunch that I do, except in the opposite direction.

Both the Agnostic and the Athiest say "I do not Believe in God".

But the Atheist goes 1 step further and says unequivically "I Believe that God does not Exist."
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You really don't understand what "atheist" actually means do you?
Might I suggest a dictionary? Rather than giving words whatever meaning suits you.



josh3623 said:
LOL would be philosophers, philosophers you are on this forum, that makes you some kind of philosopher in my book, but then I am not particularly strict about such things.

In the court of Athens aren't we all philosophers?
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Do you understand what "philosopher"" means either?
 
Paulhoff said:
Freewill does not mean evidence for a god.





Paul




:) :) :)
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The evidence is shown each time you are using freewill in order to develop it.

Since you are not aware of your freewill, you are not aware of God (which is, again, not the trivial awareness of the "man in the sky" that does the job for you).
 
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