Moderated The NYPD and Molten Concrete

GlennB said:
The hot spots were well in the range of temperatures experienced in office fires*. There was plenty of combustible material in the debris pile. What's the problem?

*take care when you look at those reports. iirc the temperatures are primarily quoted in °K
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Yeah, the fires were so hot they're listed in kelvin; I know the story, thanks.
 
jaydeehess said:
By whom am I, a Canadian btw, being 'held hostage'? One would assume that if I were being held hostage and identifying with my hostage taker that I would be aware of that person or group's identity.

No, imho you are the one who is a slave, to your our paranoia.

That or you are a deeply disturbed attention seeker who purports to believe a truly fantastical scenario in order to garner interaction, be it positive or negative, with others on the internet.
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Oh, by golly I stand corrected. Canooks aren't subject to propaganda - that's only we Americans, eh? Har.

Paranoia? If I was paranoid, using my real name and face on the Internet would compound that affliction wouldn't it?
 
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yankee451 said:
Nowhere do I say the NYPD are all lying scum - those are your words.

If art imitates life, then referring to the plethora of films that depict police corruption is relevant. Are you claiming police corruption only exists in the movies? Do tell.

I'm sure there are "good" cops in the NYPD and the PANYNJ. All it would take would be a few corrupt people at the top to taint the whole department. What's with the all or nothing black and white thinking from you all?
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http://yankee451.com/2012/07/15/963/ Oh?

Oh? Yes you are. Next time read what you post on the web for your grandkids to see your hate and silly nonsense.
yankee451 web site: Are they trying to give the impression that if the fires were so intense they could melt concrete then
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You used they. Unable to name names, you smear the FD, and the PD.

yankee451 web site: Right here is simple proof the police lied, so if they lied about the concrete, what else did they lie about?
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You said the police lied. Which is a lie. You spread lies about 911. Why do you lie about 911?

Ironically this web page spewing hate and lies about police and firefighters shows evidence of aircraft which hit the WTC towers, which makes your silly fantasy of missiles a failed lie.


yankee451 said:
Yeah, the fires were so hot they're listed in kelvin; I know the story, thanks.
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? lol

It would be past paranoid; by posting delusions of missiles, plus failure to correct the museum which did not lie; they made a mistake.
 
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yankee451 said:
Nowhere do I say the NYPD are all lying scum - those are your words.

If art imitates life, then referring to the plethora of films that depict police corruption is relevant. Are you claiming police corruption only exists in the movies? Do tell.

I'm sure there are "good" cops in the NYPD and the PANYNJ. All it would take would be a few corrupt people at the top to taint the whole department. What's with the all or nothing black and white thinking from you all?
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Of course you're saying the NYPD and FDNY are liars on that page, they don't agree with you, they saw things that are inconvenient for your theories.
 
yankee451 said:
Project much?
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No.

You accuse police officers and firefighters of lying, you don't believe there were any planes so they must be lying right? That way you can handwave any evidence you do not like.

Simple.
 
yankee451 said:
Nowhere do I say the NYPD are all lying scum - those are your words.
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Perhaps, but clearly your intention.

yankee451 said:
If art imitates life, then referring to the plethora of films that depict police corruption is relevant. Are you claiming police corruption only exists in the movies? Do tell.
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Just like the TeeVee, you are controlled by the moovees.
Also, all those moovees were shown on teevee, and are thus rendered invalid, by your own argument.

yankee451 said:
I'm sure there are "good" cops in the NYPD and the PANYNJ. All it would take would be a few corrupt people at the top to taint the whole department. What's with the all or nothing black and white thinking from you all?
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What does this vapour actually mean? Nothing.
 
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yankee451 said:
What combustibles are you assuming were there that could account for the alleged "hot spots"?
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I wouldn't call it an assumption. Anywhoo, combustibles present in the piles were, for a brief and crude list (specifically, hydrocarbon-based ones):

  • Over 10,000 miles of wiring which in turn was covered with plastic insulation.
  • About 5,000,000 sq-feet of painted surfaces.
  • 100's of tons of wood and boards.
  • Some twenty thousand viscoelastic tower shock absorbers.
  • A few thousand computers, naturally covered in plastic.
  • 1000's of fax machines, copiers, toner cartridges, printers, hubs, circuit boards.
  • Circa 75,000 chairs.
  • Millions of markers and pens.
  • Supply closets and stores with loads of combustibles like paper, plastic, clothes, books, electronic equipments and pharmaceutial drugs et al.
  • At least well over a 100,000 gallons of oil, diesel and related fuel.
  • A couple of thousand vehicles, which in turn includes foam, upholstery, oil, rubber, carpeting and so forth.

Some sources on the chemically loaded piles:
http://www.renewnyc.com/content/pdfs/eis/Appendix_D.pdf
http://delta.ucdavis.edu/WTC.htm
http://pubs.acs.org/cen/NCW/8142aerosols.html

The presence of given 'hot-spots' and the longevity of them shouldn't really come across as so remarkable for you. I mean, there have been underground coal-fires known to burn for years and decades at end.

That you judge people in power by your own capacity for empathy does not make them any more cuddly.
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I don't. Likewise, that you judge people in power by your own premise or equation that "incompetence = well planned malice" does not indicate anything about reality other than your own preferred, unfalsifiable mode of interpretation.
 
Jono said:
The presence of given 'hot-spots' and the longevity of them shouldn't really come across as so remarkable for you. I mean, there have been underground coal-fires known to burn for years and decades at end.
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Landfill fires burn for a long time as well.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Landfill fires burn for a long time as well.
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I have fought a couple of those. You have to dig all the burned material out to get water to all of it. The worst was a military trash dump with all manner of crap that you cannot legally throw in the dump today. Sheet rock and sheet metal make excellent roofs over pockets of fire. This is why they had to take the whole pile apart and move the steel out of the way at the WTC fires.
 
Dash80 said:
No.

You accuse police officers and firefighters of lying, you don't believe there were any planes so they must be lying right? That way you can handwave any evidence you do not like.

Simple.
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Exposing the lies does that brought a nation to war not make me a liar, howeer unpopular it makes me.
 
leftysergeant said:
I have fought a couple of those. You have to dig all the burned material out to get water to all of it. The worst was a military trash dump with all manner of crap that you cannot legally throw in the dump today. Sheet rock and sheet metal make excellent roofs over pockets of fire. This is why they had to take the whole pile apart and move the steel out of the way at the WTC fires.
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Reminds me of the guys who put out oil well fires. The first thing they need to do is move all the metal away from well, because they hold so much heat they would immediately restart the blaze the second it's put out.
 
leftysergeant said:
Oh, but the fires were horrendously hot for a long, long time. They melted tons of brass, lead and aluminum.

What is so strange about that?
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Aluminum, I understand. The exterior steel beams of the WTC were covered in aluminum cladding.

But brass and lead? Are you saying that "tons" of brass and lead were located inside the WTC? Where?
 
yankee451 said:
Very good, then why was the ground so hot for so long if the fires were out before the building hit the ground?
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The ground wasn't that hot. I walked right up to Ground Zero, only two blocks away. It was actually rather cold and rainy. This picture is rather excellent proof that the basement of the WTC was not a cauldron of molten metal. Hundreds of people were walking around right on top of the pile. Since heat rises, they'd have been cooked if it was any higher than 350 degrees Farenheit, since that is the temperature that can cook a turkey. If it were hotter than 150 degrees Farenheit, they would have been unable to work there without serious fire protection, etc. etc.
 

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