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Latest Bigfoot "evidence"

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Mostly? What else do they have? PGF and footprints?

I do like the suburban Chicago footie, though I don't for a second believe that poster is an enthusiast.

Yeah, PGF and footprints make up the next two hallowed grounds of BF "evidence". Bill Munns is, of course, the saintly ambassador of all things PGF due to his oh so scientific analysis. He has his loud mouthed acolytes like Sweaty and Mulder who are fond of pulling things from their rectum, tossing said items into a discussion and then breaking out in a victory celebration of back slapping and high fives.

Oh, let's also not forget whatever little tidbit the NAWAC boys care to share at any given moment. They have, after all, managed to get actual photos of the elusive hickory nut in its natural habitat. And it only took 5 years or more... Way to go boys!
 
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Jodie said:
Based on what little reading I've done so far on what is considered a species it seems that you first decide what factors you want to look at and pick the name that best applies.
I've actually gone through the process of naming species, so I can give you some greater insight. Doubt it'll do any good--what do I know, I've only published in this area--but I'll try.

Subgroups within each taxa, based on the morphospecies concept (which, incidently, is precisely the same concept as is used in the field by all biologists and uses precisely the same math as genetic cladistics) are identifiable by specific traits. For example, mammals are identifiable via their teeth, jaws, and skulls--those features evolve quite rapidly in mammals, and in living mammals we can determine the diversity of such features within a species. If it falls outside of that range, it's likely a new species. There's currently some controversy about Equid taxonomy based on differences of opinion as to the diversity within Equid species in terms of tooth morphology, which shows we're more than aware of the potential problems with this methodology. In ammonites, we don't have teeth; however, their sutur patterns are diagnostic for each species. Decapods are trickier, but the shape of the grooves, presence of spines, etc. on the carapace are used to identify things.

If you go higher up the taxonomic scale, you end up with different diagnostic traits. Mammals are identifiable by their rather unique bone structure--if you show me a fragment of a bone a half-inch long I can frequently tell you if it's mammalian or reptilian (skulls are tricky). Decapoda is obviously defined as arthropods with ten legs (except a group of hexapod crabs that have secondarilly lost their back legs). Ammonites have convoluted sutur structures, and a few other traits.

Go to higher taxonomic levels still, and different traits are diagnostic. Chordates have notochords and a particular muscle shape. Arthropoda is....problematic. I'm of the opinion that it's a polyphyletic group; taxonomically it is defined as segmented organisms with paired limbs and an exoskeleton. Mollusca has certain anatomical features that I can't think of off the top of my head (they're food for the stuff I study, which led to some interesting discussions with my old professor [an ammonite expert]).

The reason these were identified wasn't because someone said "We need some way to define this species I want to name!" In reality, what happened was that over the past 300+ years biologists have taken extremely rigorous and careful observations of as many different organisms as they could get their hands on. Basically as soon as they started they realized that the best way to organize biology was a nested hierarchy. This didn't have to be the case; such a hierarchy was tried with geology and failed miserably. We now know that it works because each diagnostic trait of a higher-order taxonomic group is merely a much older division between two species, which has been altered and added to and used to support other structures through evolutionary time until it has become indespensable to that group. It essentially CANNOT change; therefore ALL members of a group will have that trait. So lower taxonomic groups must be divided by other traits.

Unfortunately, to know which traits are important requires years of extremely diligent study. I don't pretend to be an expert mammologist, and I've been doing it for three years. Each taxa has its own unique traits that are diagnostic. To learn them you need to know what the diagnostic traits of higher-order taxa containing the taxa you're interested are. In practice, particularly in paleontology, you need to know the diagnostic traits of numerous other organisms as well. For example, a paleontologist that has mastered horse teeth but can't identify camel teeth is going to do pretty poorly in the Desert Southwest. And there's no short-cut. You need to get your hands dirty. You need to see the specimens.

Then, to name a new species, you have to compare what you've found against all known species of that taxa. That's why the higher-order traits are vital: they allow you to limit the field. We have >300 years' worth of this sort of studies; it can be difficult to wade through the literature. Taxonomists accumulate huge libraries of species descriptions, and compare the allegedly new species against ALL the species in the taxa they've proven it to be a member of. SO, for example, if you find something with a spine and a jaw with a protruding angular process, and which was only a few inches long, you can limit your search to "rodent". Still a big group, but smaller than "mammal". If you find a cheek tooth with a zig-zag shape, you can start looking into Arvicolinae, and hypothesize that it may be Microtus. The precise shape of the zig-zags tells you which species it is.

Now, you can call this subjective; freedom of speach means you're free to make a fool of yourself. That said, I've actually done this work and have worked with experts in multiple fields. I can attest to their diligence and rigor in these sorts of analyses. If you want to see what's required to name a new species, look at the monographs of the Burgess Shale Fauna sometime. They are dry as dust, written in almost another language due to the need to be far more precise than vernacular English allows, and often the ink used to describe the species weighs more than the species did. What you won't find is subjectivity. Disagree? Cool. Prove me wrong. Track down the monographs, read through them, and point out any subjectivity.

I do not consider this to be off-topic, by the way; it's a bit tangential, but it's certainly relevant. This entire thread is, essentially, about a person saying they have a new species. Well, this is a very, VERY short outline of the process I expect that person to go through. This is the model I will test their report against to determine validity. It's what every other scientist in the world has to do, and I do not feel it overly onerous to expect someone who wishes to revolutionize the fields of ecology, paleontology, and North American biology to abide by the same standards as a guy writing a fairly standard paper describing a new species of beetle. This is being extremely generous; given the claim being made, it would not be inappropriate to demand FAR more from this guy.
 
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Oh, let's also not forget whatever little tidbit the NAWAC boys care to share at any given moment. They have, after all, managed to get actual photos of the elusive hickory nut in its natural habitat. And it only took 5 years or more... Way to go boys!

If you give them another five years they might produce a pine cone which they'll claim footie used to wipe himself.

Maybe.
 
Oh geez. Older bigfoots move to cities because of easy food access. That explains all the bigfoot corpses behind 7-11, I guess.
Someone once told me he believes bf have created an assisted-living facility near St. Petersbug, Florida for the oldest among them.
 
Oh geez. Older bigfoots move to cities because of easy food access. That explains all the bigfoot corpses behind 7-11, I guess.

This falls into the category "You can't make this up, no one would believe you". Not the bigfoot moving to the city thing; the fact that someone believes that tripe.
 
^^ Actually, as far as pulled outta my butt claims at the BFF go, that one seems to have more rational thought put into than most.
 
I've actually gone through the process of naming species, so I can give you some greater insight. Doubt it'll do any good--what do I know, I've only published in this area--but I'll try.

<respectful snip for space>

I do not consider this to be off-topic, by the way; it's a bit tangential, but it's certainly relevant. This entire thread is, essentially, about a person saying they have a new species. Well, this is a very, VERY short outline of the process I expect that person to go through. This is the model I will test their report against to determine validity. It's what every other scientist in the world has to do, and I do not feel it overly onerous to expect someone who wishes to revolutionize the fields of ecology, paleontology, and North American biology to abide by the same standards as a guy writing a fairly standard paper describing a new species of beetle. This is being extremely generous; given the claim being made, it would not be inappropriate to demand FAR more from this guy.

Beautiful! Keeping the "E" in JREF...!
 
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Thanks, Slowvehicle and Akri. :) I'm going to try to expand on it more today/this weekend, but in another thread (this would definitely be more off-topic).
 
I've actually gone through the process of naming species, so I can give you some greater insight. Doubt it'll do any good--what do I know, I've only published in this area--but I'll try...........

...........

.........This is being extremely generous; given the claim being made, it would not be inappropriate to demand FAR more from this guy.

Great post, Dinwar.

I can add only a little to this. As an illustration of how intense the investigations are around the possible discovery and naming of new species: my daughter found a possible new species of scorpion last year in British Guyana. It is apparently the first time a scorpion has ever been found inside a termite mound, which, to the layman, would seem like it should make the process easy, or at least, easier. But now, some 15 months later, it has yet to be described, and indeed, my daughter hasn't even been told informally that it is confirmed as a new species.

The other thing to add is that even a bunch of zoologists together on a trip don't know if they have found something new.........undoubtedly it takes months of trawling through literature and looking at descriptions (which may even be handwritten with a quill pen and accompanied by hand-drawn illustrations). The point being, if you don't know your stuff, you either hand the whole thing over to someone who does, or you go and pick the brains of the people who do before doing the work yourself.

If I could be slightly picky about one point in Dinwar's post, it would be that it would seem unrealistic to expect a scientific level of discourse from the amateurs under discussion. What would be reasonable, however, is to expect them, if they have any evidence of a new species, to hand it over to professionals rather than try and make any claims about it themselves.

Mike
 
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I got bored--here's the thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9518196#post9518196

It seems like a bit of a wall of text; however, I want to emphasize that I specifically spent two years learning the material above the dotted line, and two years learning the stuff below it. Not overlapping years, either--this represents a brief summary of four years of undergraduate and graduate level research, plus less formal research I did on my own (once you become an expert, you have to work just as hard to remain an expert). This isn't even a good summary; it's just the blurb on the back of the book. Still, I believe it addresses most of the concerns raised in this thread about taxonomy.

Jodie, hopefully I've addressed your criticisms in that post. If not, please feel free to point out where you think I'm wrong, where you think I need to add more data, and/or where you believe subjectivity can become problematic. That should keep posts from being tossed into AAH; at least over there, they'd be on topic. My intent was to continue our dialogue somewhere more appropriate; you let me start it, so I front-loaded with data.

Anyone else, feel free to rip it apart as well. :) I've pointed out a few week points!

MikeG said:
If I could be slightly picky about one point in Dinwar's post, it would be that it would seem unrealistic to expect a scientific level of discourse from the amateurs under discussion. What would be reasonable, however, is to expect them, if they have any evidence of a new species, to hand it over to professionals rather than try and make any claims about it themselves.
A fair criticism. It's not really important who describes the species; the critical point is that it GETS described. You're right; what normally happens with amateurs is that they send the specimens off to experts for formal identification. Happens even among professionals--I'm currently debating whether to send some fossils out to another firm for identification, since they know more about these taxa than I do (the debate is whether the material warrants it; it may not be identifiable at all). If the bigfoot crowd submitted a specimen, alive or dead, to an expert on primate taxonomy I would be satisfied at least that they were acting in good faith, and would be far more patient in regards to waiting on an answer. They still may be wrong, but at least they'd be honest--and I have no problem with someone who's wrong and honest. If you're never wrong, you're not doing science.
 
The other thing to add is that even a bunch of zoologists together on a trip don't know if they have found something new.........undoubtedly it takes months of trawling through literature and looking at descriptions (which may even be handwritten with a quill pen and accompanied by hand-drawn illustrations).
There's a citizen science project going on called Take Notes from Nature which consists of taking those kinds of notes and transcribing them into a database so that the information is easier to find. As of August 23 over 250k have been transcribed, and there are still a ton to go through. And that's just the records from participating museums.
 
Okay, so I went and read (as much as I could take) the "Psychic Sasquatch" thread over at BFF. The gist is that these folks think it's a fine idea to explain away the lack of evidence for an imaginary creature with a phenomenon for which there is no evidence.

Do they understand how curbstone thick that is? Or is it more likely that this is just more in-group fairy tale creation?

When you keep thinking you see something, or evidence for something, yet can't find the thing you are looking for then the natural conclusion is that it isn't corporeal rather than the alternative explanations.
 
When you keep thinking you see something, or evidence for something, yet can't find the thing you are looking for then the natural conclusion is that it isn't corporeal rather than the alternative explanations.

The supernatural conclusion is the natural conclusion?
 
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