Deeper than primes - Continuation

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No, there is no "as long as" involved. Cardinality is well-defined; function is well-defined.
EDIT: No, Cardinality of infinite sets is not well-defined, and this mathematical fact is known only by using the more comprehended definition of function, which according to it "x in X has at most one y in Y".

(By the traditional definition of function "some x in X has exactly one y in Y), and by using it, one unable to conclude, for example,
that |N| > OR = |N|.
 
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So, cardinality is not well defined according to some retarded, braindead and useless definition of function. Color me unsurprised, doron.

Got any results? Anything, doron. Absolutely any real result will do. Don't be shy.
 
Yeah. How dare Mathematics do that. Defining things and all.

It is defined.

By the more comprehended definition of function x in X has at most one y in Y.

By the traditional definition of function some x in X has exactly one y in Y.


Or, to explain it terms of what really happened, Doron didn't understand the meaning of function, mapping, relative set size, nor infinity (neither generally nor as any specific cardinal number), so he substituted his own versions.
What really happens is jsfisher's rejecting-reflex of anything that does not fit to the traditional view of mathematical expressions.

After he got past his denial that his usage was wrong,
It is wrong according to the traditional view of the discussed mathematical expressions, so?

He also has lapses in reasoning where the constructs for all and there exists get swapped and implications reversed.
Please provide some example.

At one point he actually declared that the constructs of if A then B, A if and only if B, and A only if B, were identical, that the all had the same meaning, both in Mathematics and in common English.
No, I said that there is no clear cut difference between the two, if one uses informal language, and in this case I used an informal language abut if A then B.

That was one of his absurdities he eventually had to recant, but he still holds that 2, for example, may or may not be an element of the set, {2}, that 1/4 and 0.25 represent different numbers, and that a set is the union of its elements.

If you ask Doron nicely, he might even explain to you how, for example, the set {{A}, {B,C}} is the union of its elements. I get {A,B,C} for the union, but Doron insists it is {{A},{B,C}}.
Already addressed in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9581351&postcount=2731 or http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9710189&postcount=2855.

I wish to say that I do make mistakes during my work, but it does not mean that any non-traditional mathematical expression is wrong just because it does not fit to the traditional mathematical expression.

If it was really true, then there is no way to get mathematical expressions by using non-traditional view of them.

Look, for example how jsfisher's traditional-only-rejecting-reflex works in the following case:

1) By the more comprehended definition of function x in X has at most one y in Y.

2) By the traditional definition of function some x in X has exactly one y in Y.

jsfisher's traditional-only-rejecting-reflex rejects (1).
 
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So, cardinality is not well defined
In case of sets with an unbounded amount of members.

Got any results? Anything, doron. Absolutely any real result will do. Don't be shy.
EDIT: Yes, sets with an unbounded amount of members do not have the power of actual infinity, which is not less than the power of non-local mathematical expressions like (non-composed) lines that are located at AND beyond a given location (which is a property that no point along them has).

This brings us to my previous request which is:

By using the traditional reasoning, please provide the proof, which rigorously shows how a collection of distinct elements (where each element has exactly 0 length) provides an element that has length > 0.

----------------

The current details of my work can be seen in http://scireprints.lu.lv/241/1/Umes.pdf .
 
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EDIT: No, Cardinality of infinite sets is not well-defined, and this mathematical fact is known only by using the more comprehended definition of function, which according to it "x in X has at most one y in Y".

'Color' is not well-defined by using the more comprehended[sic] definition of 'red' which includes all wavelengths between 532nm and 405nm.

By the way, the misuse of the term, function, isn't all that important to your mis-conclusion about set size. You seem unable to get out of your own way to get past the first blunder and on to the meat of your comprehension abyss.

(By the traditional definition of function "some x in X has exactly one y in Y), and by using it, one unable to conclude, for example, that |N| > OR = |N|.

By the way, "|N| > OR = |N|" is notational gibberish. What are you trying to express? Is it two comparisons joined by an OR? Is that middle bit tended to mean greater than or equal to?

Either way, you'd be contradicting yourself, but I'm counting on you being unable to clarify any meaning for it, and instead you'll take your "You don't get it" route.
 
This post is written to the posters that really wish to understand the properties of sets with unbounded amount of members.

Let us take, for example, the Hilbert's Hotel case, which has an unbounded amount of objects that are notated by N members (without missing even a single N member).

N members that are used in Hilbert's Hotel have two aspects, which are rooms and visitors.

By using the following case

(1,(1))
(2,())
(3,(2))
(4,(3))
(5,(4))
...

of the pair's game (as explained in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9717505&postcount=2905) it is shown that |N| > |N| exactly because the two aspects (rooms and visitors) are actually the same set of unbounded amount of objects, known as the set of all natural numbers.

The traditional definition of function ("some x in X has exactly one y in Y") is essentially not useful in order to provide |N| > |N|.

This is not the case with the more comprehended definition of function ("x in X has at most one y in Y"), which is essentially useful in order to provide |N| > |N|.

The more comprehended definition of function can provide anything that the traditional definition of function provides, but it goes beyond the limitations of the traditional one, where |N| > |N| is a concrete example, which shows (without loss of generality) that the cardinality of sets with unbounded amount of objects is mathematically not well-defined.

How this case is solved?

Very simply, by understanding that sets with unbounded amount of objects are no more than some form of potential infinity, where actual infinity is related only to mathematical objects that are non-local by definition (x is non-local if it at AND beyond the domain of y, for example: a non-composed line or line-segment that is at AND beyond a given point along it).

More details are provided in http://scireprints.lu.lv/cgi/users/login?target=http://scireprints.lu.lv/241/1/Umes.pdf .
 
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In case of sets with an unbounded amount of members.

Only in your retarded Useless-math world.

EDIT: Yes, sets with an unbounded amount of members do not have the power of actual infinity, which is not less than the power of non-local mathematical expressions like (non-composed) lines that are located at AND beyond a given location (which is a property that no point along them has).

That's just inane gibberish. You might want to look up the definition of result in a dictionary. We don't need no stinkin' gibberish, doron. We got plenty of that. Results. That's what we want from you.

This brings us to my previous request which is:

By using the traditional reasoning, please provide the proof, which rigorously shows how a collection of distinct elements (where each element has exactly 0 length) provides an element that has length > 0.

The proof has been provided to ages ago. The proof still stands. Your gibberish does not hold water.

The current details of my work can be seen in http://scireprints.lu.lv/241/1/Umes.pdf .

Hey, while you're at it and have the dictionary nearby, look up work too. While in the strictest sense, even a collection of monkeys banging away at keyboards do work, I assume that's not the type of work you were hoping to do.
 
Try harder.

It wouldn't help. His math is based on opinion, his opinion. His opinion is bounded by his comprehension which doesn't include things like the completeness of the real numbers and all that. Anything that contradicts his opinion will be rejected out of hand, typically via a combination of errors in sequence, meaning, property, method, and logic.
 
You have no argument as long as you insist on inventing your own meaning for things.

EDIT:

In order to follow the philosophical view of traditional mathematicians, we do not use the term "inventing", but we use the term "discovering".

By using the traditional definition of function ("some x in X has exactly one y in Y"), we conclude (or we discover) that , for example, {1,2,3,4,5} and {9,7,6} do not have the same finite cardinality because there is no function from {1,2,3,4,5} to {9,7,6} in two cases, as follows:
Code:
{1,2,3,4,5}
 ↓ ↓ ↓
{9,7,6}

By using the non-traditional definition of function ("x in X has at most one y in Y"), we conclude (or we discover) that , for example, {1,2,3,4,5} and {9,7,6} do not have the same finite cardinality because there are two functions from {1,2,3,4,5} to {9,7,6} that do not return any value from {9,7,6}, as follows:
Code:
{1,2,3,4,5}
 ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓
{9,7,6}

So in the case of finite cardinality, the traditional and non-traditional definition of function, provide the same results (or the same discoveries).

Now let us use these definitions in case of the set of all natural numbers (which has an unbounded amount of members), as used in Hilbert's Hotel.

It is clear that the names of the rooms and the names of the visitors in that hotel have 1-to-1 and onto with all of the members of the set of all natural numbers.

Yet it is clear that there are rooms with no members, in the following case

(1,(1))
(2,())
(3,(2))
(4,(3))
(5,(4))
...

of the pair's game (as explained in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9717505&postcount=2905), where no visitor left the hotel.

The traditional definition of function ("some x in X has exactly one y in Y") can't provide a sufficient tool in order to conclude (or to discover) what really happens in the provided case above.

On the contrary, the non-traditional definition of function ("x in X has at most one y in Y") provides a sufficient tool in order to conclude (or to discover) that there are more rooms than visitors (the function at room 2, in the example above, does not return any visitor's name, yet such a function is rigorously defined by the non-traditional definition of function).

Since both rooms and visitors are actually two aspects of the same thing, which is all the members of the set of natural numbers, we are able to conclude (or to discover) that |N| > |N|, or in other words (and without loss of generality) the cardinality of sets with unbounded amount of members, is not (mathematically) well-defined.
 
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doron, you only think you're writing coherent sentences. They are anything but. You are writing gibberish. It does not even come close to even informal standards, not to mention rigorous mathematical definitions and argumentation. The fact that over the years a few of us have come to be able to decipher some of what you babble about does not mean you are progressing. Far from it. Our gibberish parser is evolving. Of course, the task is impossible in the end.

You can't expect anyone to read through your years of gibberish just to be able to take a wild guess at your latest word salad. You have shown absolutely no reason for anyone to go through that horrible experience. You have got zero results. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

Even if we take into account that your "work" is being displayed in the philosophy subforum (btw. you couldn't take that hint either?), it's still gibberish. Word salad extraordinaire. Nothing more.
 
EDIT:

In order to follow the philosophical view of traditional mathematicians, we do not use the term "inventing", but we use the term "discovering".

"We"? You are alone in your delusion. And now we see you inventing a new meaning for a simple word like discovering.

The point stands. You invent meanings, and you do so to cover your misunderstandings. 'Function' is not defined as you pretend (not that it really matters to your current rant), and 'cardinality' is not defined as you pretend.

Anything you have to say about either is worthless because you wouldn't be talking about the right thing.
 
Only according to your traditional-only point of view, so?


What you want to call a function isn't. What you want to call cardinality isn't. If by "traditional-only point of view" you mean adhere to basic meaning of things to facilitate communication, than I would agree.

Since your intent is to not communicate--by exploiting private definitions for established terminology and by out-and-out gibberish--what are you expecting to accomplish with your posts?
 
Since your intent is to not communicate--by exploiting private definitions for established terminology and by out-and-out gibberish--what are you expecting to accomplish with your posts?

Since your intent is to not communicate--by using only traditional terminology--what are you expecting to accomplish with your posts?
 
Since your intent is to not communicate--by using only traditional terminology--what are you expecting to accomplish with your posts?

Barely worthy as a playground taunt among 5-year olds, echoing my words back at me, your post reflects poorly on you. Yes, I do try to stick with established meanings, so your attempt to insult instead provides another example of your ability to contradict yourself in the space on one sentence.
 
Barely worthy as a playground taunt among 5-year olds, echoing my words back at me, your post reflects poorly on you. Yes, I do try to stick with established meanings, so your attempt to insult instead provides another example of your ability to contradict yourself in the space on one sentence.
Another evasion of detailed reply to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9732357&postcount=2979 (in the name of "stick with established meanings") is shown.
 
No, it doesn't, doron. The rest of the world moves, your broken excuse for a caravan stands still.
You are not in any position (yet) to conclude that.

Try Harder.

For example: By using the traditional reasoning, please provide the proof, which rigorously shows how a collection of distinct elements (where each element has exactly 0 length) provides an element that has length > 0.
 
Only if one only "stick with established meanings", so?

That would be key to effective communication. It is also key to consistency of argument: You cannot reach conclusions about, oh, say, cardinality when you are basing it all on something that isn't.
 
That would be key to effective communication.

Effective only in terms of the traditional meaning of things, so?

Let's try it again.

By using the traditional reasoning, please provide the proof, which rigorously shows how a collection of distinct elements (where each element has exactly 0 length) provides an element that has length > 0.
 
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You are not in any position (yet) to conclude that.

Yes, I am. You have failed to show anything. It's not my problem you're hopefully incapacitated.

Try Harder.

You first.

For example: By using the traditional reasoning, please provide the proof, which rigorously shows how a collection of distinct elements (where each element has exactly 0 length) provides an element that has length > 0.

You do know that repeating the same thing over and over again while getting the same result but still hoping for something else is a sign of insanity?
 
Effective only in terms of the traditional meaning of things, so?

Oh, now you have a different concept of what effective means? That's just too much, doron, even for you. Here's your laughing dog: :dl:

I don't know whether you realize this, but what you're doing is like standing in front of a construction yard and yelling at the workers that what they are doing is not effective and they should just do what you do: just stand by and will the construction into existence. It's beyond stupid.

Let's try it again.

By using the traditional reasoning, please provide the proof, which rigorously shows how a collection of distinct elements (where each element has exactly 0 length) provides an element that has length > 0.

doron_insanity_index++;
 
Are you sure you want to admit to everyone that you believe ignoring the meaning of things is part of effective communication?
jsfisher I do not ignore them.

On the contrary, I expand the meaning of things beyond their traditional meaning.

Since your communication style is done only in terms of the traditional meaning of things, there is no communication between us, and this is my claim about you all along this thread. You simply refuse to do any step beyond the traditional or (by using your expression) beyond the "established meanings".
 
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doron_insanity_index++;
I agree with you, it is indeed insane to reply to you, in the first place.

So now we have doron_insanity_index+++ and you are go back to my ignore list.


No bye :covereyes laca.
 
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