Deeper than primes - Continuation

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jsfisher I do not ignore them.

You do realize that your posts are there for everyone to see that in fact you do, right?

On the contrary, I expand the meaning of things beyond their traditional meaning.

Add expand to the list of words you don't understand.

Since your communication style is done only in terms of the traditional meaning of things, there is no communication between us, and this is my claim about you all along this thread. You simply refuse to do any step beyond the traditional or (by using your expression) beyond the "established meanings".

There's no issue with new concepts here, doron. Just leave the existing ones alone. Go ahead and construct your own framework. Just keep in mind that unless it's at least consistent, coherent and useful (huge overlap, I know), nobody is going to take you seriously.
 
I agree with you, it is indeed insane to reply to you, in the first place.

So now we have doron_insanity_index+++ and you are go back to my ignore list.


No bye :covereyes laca.

Don't be such a drama queen. Either you have an actual argument, which I am more than willing to participate in, or you just can't take the bitter pill.
 
First off, the best wishes for 2014!

Doron, at the 30c3 I spoke with some renowned mathematicians about the problem of communicating mathematical ideas.

They pointed me to AGDA, which you can use to prototype new mathematical relations and construct proofs with.

I think it will be helpful if you can devote some time to this.

http://wiki.portal.chalmers.se/agda/pmwiki.php
 
First off, the best wishes for 2014!

Doron, at the 30c3 I spoke with some renowned mathematicians about the problem of communicating mathematical ideas.

They pointed me to AGDA, which you can use to prototype new mathematical relations and construct proofs with.

I think it will be helpful if you can devote some time to this.

http://wiki.portal.chalmers.se/agda/pmwiki.php

First, I wish you realpaladin happy new year.

Thank you for your care about problems of communicating mathematical ideas, I am going to learn about AGDA in order to find better ways for communicating mathematical ideas.

Thank you.:)
 
First, I wish you realpaladin happy new year.

Thank you for your care about problems of communicating mathematical ideas, I am going to learn about AGDA in order to find better ways for communicating mathematical ideas.

Thank you.:)

You are welcome.

As about 90 percent of this thread is about linguistics rather than philosophy or mathematics, this should provide an elegant shortcut...
 
You are welcome.

As about 90 percent of this thread is about linguistics rather than philosophy or mathematics, this should provide an elegant shortcut...
EDIT:

I disagree with you. This thread, among other things, deals also with the possible connections among Linguistics, Philosophy and Mathematics.

AGDA is based on the constructive philosophical point of view of Mathematics, which does not agree with actual infinity in terms of Formalism or Platonism, as defined by Cantor, Dedekind, Hilbert etc., which define actual infinity in terms of collections (even if these collections can't be constructed).

Organic Mathematics agrees with actual infinity, but it shows that it is beyond the power of collections (no matter if they are constructable or not).

Moreover, by expanding the definition of function, such that there is a function with an input but no output (as explained in details in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9732357&postcount=2979) one enables to show that |N| > |N| or |N| = |N| * , or in other words, the whole notion of transfinite cardinality is not mathematically well-defined.

Any attempt to deduce |N| > |N| by using the traditional definition of function, is doomed to fail, simply because "x in X has exactly one y in Y", is (by analogy) some kind of net that its holes are too big in order to catch fine things like |N| > |N|.

--------------------------------------------------

* |N| > |N| or |N| = |N| examples are shows as follows:

An example of |N| = |N|:

(1,(1))
(2,(2))
(3,(3))
(4,(4))
(5,(5))
...


An example of |N| > |N|:

(1,(1))
(2,())
(3,(2))
(4,(3))
(5,(4))
...
 
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EDIT:

I disagree with you. This thread, among other things, deals also with the possible connections among Linguistics, Philosophy and Mathematics.

You do realize that by saying that you have proven my point, don't you?

AGDA is based on the constructive philosophical point of view of Mathematics, which does not agree with actual infinity in terms of Formalism or Platonism, as defined by Cantor, Dedekind, Hilbert etc., which define actual infinity in terms of collections (even if these collections can't be constructed).
Are you saying that AGDA can not be used to deal with infinity? Have you checked the support forums?


Organic Mathematics agrees with actual infinity, but it shows that it is beyond the power of collections (no matter if they are constructable or not).

I probably missed where this is shown. None of the previous posts have ever been enlightening enough so that leaves me with 2 options:

- The proof never was shown.
- You are not as good a teacher as you may think you are

And saying 'you don't get...' simply proves the second option.

Moreover, by expanding the definition of function, such that there is a function with an input but no output (as explained in details in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9732357&postcount=2979) one enables to show that |N| > |N| or |N| = |N| * , or in other words, the whole notion of transfinite cardinality is not mathematically well-defined.

Any attempt to deduce |N| > |N| by using the traditional definition of function, is doomed to fail, simply because "x in X has exactly one y in Y", is (by analogy) some kind of net that its holes are too big in order to catch fine things like |N| > |N|.

--------------------------------------------------

* |N| > |N| or |N| = |N| examples are shows as follows:

An example of |N| = |N|:

(1,(1))
(2,(2))
(3,(3))
(4,(4))
(5,(5))
...


An example of |N| > |N|:

(1,(1))
(2,())
(3,(2))
(4,(3))
(5,(4))
...

So all you manage is to tack on a 'It depends whether you want to include the empty set in the cardinality or not', or 'It depends on how you look at it'.

Your |N| > |N| actually only manages to convey that your predicates are position dependent, meaning that the variable before an infix operator has it's own domain which is separate from the variable after the infix.

You could just as well write:

|N1| > |N2| where |N2| is |N1| and the empty set.

What's new?
 
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You do realize that by saying that you have proven my point, don't you?
Only if "90 percent of this thread is about linguistics rather than philosophy or mathematics" is equivalent to "This thread, among other things, deals also with the possible connections among Linguistics, Philosophy and Mathematics."

Since they are not equivalent then my answer is: no, I did not prove your point.

Are you saying that AGDA can not be used to deal with infinity? Have you checked the support forums?
The term is actual-infinity. Please read again what I wrote about it.

I probably missed where this is shown. None of the previous posts have ever been enlightening enough so that leaves me with 2 options:

- The proof never was shown.
- You are not as good a teacher as you may think you are

And saying 'you don't get...' simply proves the second option.
All you have is to understand the axiomatic state that sets with unbounded amount of objects are no more than some form of potential infinity, where actual infinity is related only to mathematical objects that are non-local by definition (x is non-local if it at AND beyond the domain of y, for example: a non-composed line or line-segment that is at AND beyond the position of a given point along it. On the contrary, the given point along the non-composed line or line segment is only at a given position).

So all you manage is to tack on a 'It depends whether you want to include the empty set in the cardinality or not', or 'It depends on how you look at it'.

Your |N| > |N| actually only manages to convey that your predicates are position dependent, meaning that the variable before an infix operator has it's own domain which is separate from the variable after the infix.

You could just as well write:

|N1| > |N2| where |N2| is |N1| and the empty set.

What's new?
Only the natural numbers are involved here (the internal () of the expression (2,()) is not equivalent to the empty set, exactly because we are using functions only between the names of the rooms and the names of the visitors in that rooms, and not between the names of the rooms and the rooms).

EDIT:

1 → 1
2 →
3 → 2
4 → 3
5 → 4
...

is not the same as

1 → (1)
2 → ()
3 → (2)
4 → (3)
5 → (4)
...

Once again you are using the "some x in X has exactly one y in Y" traditional definition of function, instead of "x in X has at most one y in Y" non-traditional definition of function, where one of its options is input without any output (as seen in the case of 2 → ).

You, by mistake, think that there are two different cases which are

1 → (1)
2 → ()
3 → (2)
4 → (3)
5 → (4)
...

(called by you N1)

and

1 → (1)
2 → (2)
3 → (3)
4 → (4)
5 → (5)
...

(called by you N2)
 
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Nobody cares about how much idiocy you can conjure up, doron. We got plenty of that already. Got something else?
 
I wish to correct some mistake that I made in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9717505&postcount=2905 , so I'll rewrite it:

Let's play with the pairs' game, by using an expression of the form (x,y) as follows:

The outer "(" and ")" define Hilbert's hotel environment.

x defines the name of a given room in that environment.

y defines a room in that environment such that it can be without any visitor (notated by ()) OR with exactly one visitor (notated by (n), where n is a placeholder for some visitor's name).

The following case of the pairs' game

(1,(1))
(2,())
(3,(2))
(4,(3))
(5,(4))
...

rigorously shows that even if there is 1-to-1 and onto from the names of the rooms and the names of the visitors into the set of all natural numbers, there is also at least one room beyond the range of the visitors.

The internal () of the expression (2,()) is not equivalent to the empty set, exactly because within the pairs' game framework we are using functions only between the names of the rooms and the names of the visitors in that rooms, and not between the names of the rooms and the rooms.

For example:

1 → 1
2 →
3 → 2
4 → 3
5 → 4
...

(which are functions between the names of the rooms and the names of the visitors)

is not the same as

1 → (1)
2 → ()
3 → (2)
4 → (3)
5 → (4)
...

(which are functions between the names of the rooms and the rooms)

By using the "some x in X has exactly one y in Y" traditional definition of function, instead of "x in X has at most one y in Y" non-traditional definition of function, (where one of its options is input without any output (as seen in the case of 2 → )), one can't deduce that |N|>|N|.
 
No, I said something other than gibberish, doron. What you wrote is still unadulterated gibberish.
 
Here is a clearer version of the pairs' game framework.

Let's play with the pairs' game, by using an expression of the form (x,y) as follows:

The outer "(" and ")" define Hilbert's hotel environment.

x defines the name of a given room in that environment.

y defines a room in that environment such that it can be without any visitor (notated by ()) OR with exactly one visitor (notated by (n), where n is a placeholder for some visitor's name).

In the following pairs' game framework, where there is a function from rooms' names and visitors' names (such that both names are in 1-to-1 and onto from the names to the set of all natural numbers)

(1,(1))
(2,(2))
(3,(3))
(4,(4))
(5,(5))
...

is expressed by

1 → 1
2 → 2
3 → 3
4 → 4
5 → 5
...

which shows that |N| = |N|

---------------------------------------------

In the following pairs' game framework, where there is a function from rooms' names and visitors' names (such that both names are in 1-to-1 and onto from the names to the set of all natural numbers)

(1,(1))
(2,( ))
(3,(2))
(4,(3))
(5,(4))
...

is expressed by

1 → 1
2 →
3 → 2
4 → 3
5 → 4
...

which shows that |N| > |N|

---------------------------------------------

|N| > |N| is deducible only if the definition of function is:

x in X has at most one y in Y

Such definition enables to define function even if it has an input but not any output (as seen, for example, in 2 → ).

---------------------------------------------

|N| > |N| is not deducible if the definition of function is:

x in X has exactly one y in Y

Such definition does not enable to define function unless it has input and output (for example, 2 → is not deducible by such definition).
 
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But you are forgetting the background of the Hotel. It already has people in the rooms.

Edit: either you have a guest without a room, or an existing room without and existing guest. Both violate the starting conditions.
 
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In the following pairs' game framework....

I see you persist in using your own private meaning for 'function' -- quite unnecessarily, too, but what of that -- and you persist in misusing '1-to-1' and 'onto'.

Let's put that aside, though. Instead, I'd like to know what you mean by 'cardinality', since that appears to be a private doronism as well. In particular, how do you make relative comparisons of the cardinality of two sets?
 
Only if "90 percent of this thread is about linguistics rather than philosophy or mathematics" is equivalent to "This thread, among other things, deals also with the possible connections among Linguistics, Philosophy and Mathematics."

Since they are not equivalent then my answer is: no, I did not prove your point.
That's what you say! The rest of us can't make head nor tails out of what you say.

So, maybe more than 90% linguistics, but communications difficulties at the very least.

The term is actual-infinity. Please read again what I wrote about it.

^^^^ Q.E.D. ^^^^

All you have is to understand the axiomatic state that sets with unbounded amount of objects are no more than some form of potential infinity, where actual infinity is related only to mathematical objects that are non-local by definition (x is non-local if it at AND beyond the domain of y, for example: a non-composed line or line-segment that is at AND beyond the position of a given point along it. On the contrary, the given point along the non-composed line or line segment is only at a given position).


Only the natural numbers are involved here (the internal () of the expression (2,()) is not equivalent to the empty set, exactly because we are using functions only between the names of the rooms and the names of the visitors in that rooms, and not between the names of the rooms and the rooms).

EDIT:

1 → 1
2 →
3 → 2
4 → 3
5 → 4
...

is not the same as

1 → (1)
2 → ()
3 → (2)
4 → (3)
5 → (4)
...

Once again you are using the "some x in X has exactly one y in Y" traditional definition of function, instead of "x in X has at most one y in Y" non-traditional definition of function, where one of its options is input without any output (as seen in the case of 2 → ).

You, by mistake, think that there are two different cases which are

1 → (1)
2 → ()
3 → (2)
4 → (3)
5 → (4)
...

(called by you N1)

and

1 → (1)
2 → (2)
3 → (3)
4 → (4)
5 → (5)
...

(called by you N2)

It does not matter what *you* call it or how *you* *describe* it (linguistics again), but what *you* *do*.

*You* *do* the following:

(Label A) == (Label A) AND (Label A) > (Label A)

No matter how you fill the (Label A) or whatever you call it, all you have succeeded in doing is giving the infix operator a different meaning. That is all.

If you seriously want your concept to work then you must start out with a dictionary of what predicates and operators mean.

Let me give you a start:

Operators:
  • == Infix equality. This means that the predicates before and after are considered equal if and only if they both have the exact same content.
  • > Infix greater than. The predicate before the infix operator has a greater value (dependent on type) than the predicate after the operator.

Predicates:
  • |<predicate>| The complete collection of all elements of <predicate>

If you start by that, then and only then, perhaps you could start convincing anyone.

Remember, the above is just an example on how to construct any logic (even faulty logic) so I'd say you can start getting this thing off the linguistics track.
 
  • |<predicate>| The complete collection of all elements of <predicate>

The names of the rooms and the names of the visitors are actually one and only one thing, which is the all members of the the set of natural numbers, notated as N (<predicate> in your language) so there is no linguistic problem here.

The function is from the names of the rooms to the names of the visitors, and by using the definition of function "x in X has at most one y in Y", we get a room name that is beyond the range of the visitors' names (where both of them are actually the all members of the the set of natural numbers, notated as N (<predicate> in your language), so we get |N| > |N|.

So we get two different cases with OR condition between them, which are:

1 → 1
2 → 2
3 → 3
4 → 4
5 → 5
...

|N| = |N|

OR

1 → 1
2 →
3 → 2
4 → 3
5 → 4
...

|N| > |N|

So, by using your expression, we have (Label A) == (Label A) OR (Label A) > (Label A), which is actually |N| = |N| OR |N| > |N|.
 
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The names of the rooms and the names of the visitors are actually one and only one thing, which is the all members of the the set of natural numbers, notated as N (<predicate> in your language) so there is no linguistic problem here.

The function is from the names of the rooms to the names of the visitors, and by using the definition of function "x in X has at most one y in Y", we get a room name that is beyond the range of the visitors' names (where both of them are actually the all members of the the set of natural numbers, notated as N (<predicate> in your language), so we get |N| > |N|.

So we get two different cases with OR condition between them, which are:

1 -> 1
2 -> 2
3 -> 3
4 -> 4
5 -> 5
...

|N| = |N|

OR

1 -> 1
2 ->
3 -> 2
4 -> 3
5 -> 4
...

|N| > |N|

So, by using your expression, we have (Label A) == (Label A) OR (Label A) > (Label A), which is actually |N| = |N| OR |N| > |N|.

Are you really the king of incompetence?

I didn't ask for a clarification on the case, I simply explained that nothing you state or show has any meaning until you first define what *your * symbols mean.

If you fail doing that then the conclusion can only be that even philosophy is too difficult a hobby for you.

So, please try to read the question and define your symbols without examples.

We are polite enough to wade through your words, show that you have at least a modicum of civilization by trying to understand ours.
 
Are you really the king of incompetence?

I didn't ask for a clarification on the case, I simply explained that nothing you state or show has any meaning until you first define what *your * symbols
<predicate> means N.

The definition of function is "x in X has at most one y in Y", which enables also functions with input that do not have any output.

By using such a function within the framework of Hilbert's hotel, one of the possible results is

1 → 1
2 →
3 → 2
4 → 3
5 → 4
...

and since only all N members are involved (the empty set is not involved, exactly because the function is form the names of the rooms to the names of the visitors, and not from the names of the rooms to the rooms), we get |N| > |N| case.

You, wrongly use the function from the names of the rooms to the rooms, as follows:

1 → (1)
2 → ()
3 → (2)
4 → (3)
5 → (4)
...

and by doing that we are missing the fact that there is function 2 → of room's name input 2, which is beyond the range of all the rooms' names outputs.

-----------

EDIT:

Once again, the names of the rooms and the names of the visitors in that hotel are actually all the members of the set of all natural numbers (notated by N), and no members other than natural numbers are used in Hilbert's Hotel framework after moving visitors (such that no visitor left the hotel) AND before visitors' new reception.
 
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But you are forgetting the background of the Hotel. It already has people in the rooms.

Edit: either you have a guest without a room, or an existing room without and existing guest. Both violate the starting conditions.
EDIT:

We are dealing here only with actual guests (that are already in the hotel).

A guest without a room is not an actual guest of Hilbert's Hotel.
 
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I see you persist in using your own private meaning for 'function' -- quite unnecessarily, too, but what of that -- and you persist in misusing '1-to-1' and 'onto'.
It is an expanded meaning for 'function', where in addition to the term that for any input there must an output, there is also the term that there is input without any output.

This expansion is quite unnecessary in order to not missing what's really going in Hilbert's Hotel framework.

Let's put that aside, though. Instead, I'd like to know what you mean by 'cardinality', since that appears to be a private doronism as well. In particular, how do you make relative comparisons of the cardinality of two sets?
Cardinality is the size of a given set in a way that does not take into account its structure.

The relative comparisons of the cardinality of two sets, is done by the expanded function, whether a set has bounded amount of members or unbounded amount of members.

Once again:

By using the traditional definition of function ("some x in X has exactly one y in Y"), we conclude (or we discover) that , for example, {1,2,3,4,5} and {9,7,6} do not have the same finite cardinality because there is no function from {1,2,3,4,5} to {9,7,6} in two cases, as follows:
Code:
{1,2,3,4,5}
 ↓ ↓ ↓
{9,7,6}

By using the non-traditional definition of function ("x in X has at most one y in Y"), we conclude (or we discover) that , for example, {1,2,3,4,5} and {9,7,6} do not have the same finite cardinality because there are two functions from {1,2,3,4,5} to {9,7,6} that do not return any value from {9,7,6}, as follows:
Code:
{1,2,3,4,5}
 ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓
{9,7,6}

So in the case of finite cardinality, the traditional and non-traditional definition of function, provide the same results (or the same discoveries).

Now let us use the non-traditional definition of function in case of the set of all natural numbers (which has an unbounded amount of members), as used in Hilbert's Hotel.

The names of the rooms and the names of the visitors in that hotel are actually all the members of the set of all natural numbers (notated by N), and in order to see what really happens in Hilbert's Hotel let's play with the pairs' game, by using an expression of the form (x,y) as follows:

The outer "(" and ")" define Hilbert's hotel environment.

x defines the name of a given room in that environment.

y defines a room in that environment such that it can be without any visitor (notated by ()) OR with exactly one visitor (notated by (n), where n is a placeholder for some visitor's name).

In the following pairs' game framework, where there is a function from rooms' names and visitors' names (such that both names are in 1-to-1 and onto from the names to the set of all natural numbers)

(1,(1))
(2,(2))
(3,(3))
(4,(4))
(5,(5))
...

is expressed by

1 → 1
2 → 2
3 → 3
4 → 4
5 → 5
...

which shows that |N| = |N|

---------------------------------------------

In the following pairs' game framework, where there is a function from rooms' names and visitors' names (such that both names are in 1-to-1 and onto from the names to the set of all natural numbers)

(1,(1))
(2,( ))
(3,(2))
(4,(3))
(5,(4))
...

is expressed by

1 → 1
2 →
3 → 2
4 → 3
5 → 4
...

which shows that |N| > |N|

---------------------------------------------

|N| > |N| is deducible only if the definition of function is:

x in X has at most one y in Y

Such definition enables to define function even if it has an input but not any output (as seen, for example, in 2 → ).

---------------------------------------------

|N| > |N| is not deducible if the definition of function is:

x in X has exactly one y in Y

Such definition does not enable to define function unless it has input and output (for example, 2 → is not deducible by such definition).

--------------------------------------------------

In other words, |N| > |N| is deducible only if the non-traditional definition of function is used.
 
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Seems you overlooked this, Doron:

I see you persist in using your own private meaning for 'function' -- quite unnecessarily, too, but what of that -- and you persist in misusing '1-to-1' and 'onto'.

Let's put that aside, though. Instead, I'd like to know what you mean by 'cardinality', since that appears to be a private doronism as well. In particular, how do you make relative comparisons of the cardinality of two sets?


I'd like to know what you mean by 'cardinality', since that appears to be a private doronism. In particular, how do you make relative comparisons of the cardinality of two sets?
 
<predicate> means N.

The definition of function is "x in X has at most one y in Y", which enables also functions with input that do not have any output.

<snippety by realpaladin>

EDIT:

Once again, the names of the rooms and the names of the visitors in that hotel are actually all the members of the set of all natural numbers (notated by N), and no members other than natural numbers are used in Hilbert's Hotel framework after moving visitors (such that no visitor left the hotel) AND before visitors' new reception.

Were you on the legal counsil of Bill Clinton?

Now I need to explain what 'means' actually means... I hope not.


Doron, you are doing everything by example, but examples are never complete nor rigorous.

You *have* to define your 'dictionary'. Then you can explain what it *means*.

Definition and meaning are two separate things.

You keep on showing that we are in a 7 year linguistics course for Doron and nothing else.
 
Were you on the legal counsil of Bill Clinton?

Now I need to explain what 'means' actually means... I hope not.


Doron, you are doing everything by example, but examples are never complete nor rigorous.

You *have* to define your 'dictionary'. Then you can explain what it *means*.

Definition and meaning are two separate things.

You keep on showing that we are in a 7 year linguistics course for Doron and nothing else.

Not to mention that there's absolutely no progress on that front either...
 
Not to mention that there's absolutely no progress on that front either...

Over the years I mentioned several mental disorders that may have caused this.

The baroque style and hubris in his 'publications' point to a combination of Dunning/Kruger + Cargo Cult Science.

For the Cargo Cult Science there is ample evidence in this (and the previous thread); the overuse of 'it is clear', 'it is shown' and other fragments that one would normally find in real publications.

In Doron's case he never understands that if just one person disagrees that this means that 'it is not clear' and neither 'is it shown'.

But then he shies away from following through from A to Z by defining terms, defining relations by defining operators, etc.

All we get is meconium with undigestable chunks of formatting...
 

"Already given" in the sense of editing a prior post after I'd asked a second time.

Nevertheless, let's look at your answer:

Cardinality is the size of a given set in a way that does not take into account its structure.

As a conceptual back-drop for cardinality, that works, but as a definition it falls way short. You'd need to define 'size' at the very least.

What is the size, for example, of the set of odd integers? of the set of real numbers between 2 and 3?

The relative comparisons of the cardinality of two sets, is done by the expanded function, whether a set has bounded amount of members or unbounded amount of members.

You need to be more specific. You are telling us about the comparison, but not the details of how it is done and how you assess the result.


Here, if it is any help to you, is how I'd define cardinality of sets:

Conceptually, cardinality is a measure of set size. It is convenient to think of cardinality as "how many" and assign a number to it to make it an absolute measure. The cardinality of a set of 4 apples would be 4, for example.

However, since arithmetic is built on set theory and not the other way around, defining cardinality of sets in terms of numbers isn't appropriate. Instead, we can define it as a relative measure, the comparison of the cardinality of two sets, and thereby avoid the use of numbers (until later).

For any sets A and B, if there exists a one-to-one mapping from A to B, then the cardinality of set A is less than or equal to the cardinality of set B. A pair of vertical bars are commonly used to denote cardinality, so |A| <= |B|.

The basic properties of the <= relation can be used to establish the other comparison relations (=, for example), and thus our definition for relative cardinality is complete. It is unambiguous and consistent.

Now, to establish cardinality in an absolute sense, we can rely on the Axiom of Infinity and the standard correspondence to the natural numbers. The cardinality of each member of the von Neumann set is the natural number corresponding to that member. And, of course, any two sets with the same relative cardinality would then each have the same absolute cardinality.

Relative cardinality works for all sets; absolute cardinality requires an extension to the natural numbers to be applicable to infinite sets.
 
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Doron, you are doing everything by example, but examples are never complete nor rigorous.
This is exactly what I did in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9742045#post9742045

Here it is:

<predicate> means N.

The definition of function is "x in X has at most one y in Y", which enables also functions with input that do not have any output.

The rest of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9742045#post9742045 shows how the new definition of function rigorously provide interesting results, which are derived from the set of all natural numbers (notated as N).
 
"Already given" in the sense of editing a prior post after I'd asked a second time.

Nevertheless, let's look at your answer:



As a conceptual back-drop for cardinality, that works, but as a definition it falls way short. You'd need to define 'size' at the very least.

What is the size, for example, of the set of odd integers? of the set of real numbers between 2 and 3?



You need to be more specific. You are telling us about the comparison, but not the details of how it is done and how you assess the result.


Here, if it is any help to you, is how I'd define cardinality of sets:

Conceptually, cardinality is a measure of set size. It is convenient to think of cardinality as "how many" and assign a number to it to make it an absolute measure. The cardinality of a set of 4 apples would be 4, for example.

However, since arithmetic is built on set theory and not the other way around, defining cardinality of sets in terms of numbers isn't appropriate. Instead, we can define it as a relative measure, the comparison of the cardinality of two sets, and thereby avoid the use of numbers (until later).

For any sets A and B, if there exists a one-to-one mapping from A to B, then the cardinality of set A is less than or equal to the cardinality of set B. A pair of vertical bars are commonly used to denote cardinality, so |A| <= |B|.

The basic properties of the <= relation can be used to establish the other comparison relations (=, for example), and thus our definition for relative cardinality is complete. It is unambiguous and consistent.

Now, to establish cardinality in an absolute sense, we can rely on the Axiom of Infinity and the standard correspondence to the natural numbers. The cardinality of each member of the von Neumann set is the natural number corresponding to that member. And, of course, any two sets with the same relative cardinality would then each have the same absolute cardinality.

Relative cardinality works for all sets; absolute cardinality requires an extension to the natural numbers to be applicable to infinite sets.
Thank you for your detailed post.

The traditional way which provides the values of relative cardinality (which is not restricted to finite amounts), is done by "x in X has exactly one y in Y" definition of function.

The non-traditional way which provides the values of relative cardinality (which is not restricted to finite amounts), is done by "x in X has at most one y in Y" definition of function.

Now please read the rest of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9742045&postcount=3022 , which compares between the traditional and non-traditional definition of function, and their possible results among finite or infinite sets that their members (in this case) are natural numbers.

EDIT:

What is the size, for example, of the set of odd integers? of the set of real numbers between 2 and 3?
By using the traditional definition of function we get well-defined sizes like |N| or |R|.

By using the non-traditional definition of function we realize that what is seen as well-defined sizes like |N| or |R| (by using the traditional definition of function) are not well-defined sizes, or in other words, sets with unbounded amount of members do not have well-defined sizes (well-defined sizes can be found only among sets with bounded amount of members).

|N| > |N| property is a "close relative" of the property of a set with unbounded amount of members to be in 1-to-1 and onto with its proper subset (known also as Dedekind infinite). These properties can't be found among sets with bounded amount of members.

|N| > |N| property of sets with unbounded amount of members can't be deduced by using the traditional definition of function.
 
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This is exactly what I did in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9742045#post9742045

Here it is:

<predicate> means N.
The definition of function is "x in X has at most one y in Y", which enables also functions with input that do not have any output.

The rest of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9742045#post9742045 shows how the new definition of function rigorously provide interesting results, which are derived from the set of all natural numbers (notated as N).

Highlighting mine.

So, you still are in denial about your abysmal language skills?

What *your* highlighted text says is that I can write for example the formula for impulse (which is J = Ft = mv = int(F) dt) as:

N=NN=NN=int(N) dN

Do you see what your horrible skills in language do?

Underscoring also mine.

The underscored part is just as abysmal because you have NOT shown a relation, you have shown a mapping function.

A mapping function, by it's definition, yields a *new* entity.

What you managed to do is wordgarble the following two items together:

mapping:

A -> B

mapping function:

func(A) -> B

These two are nowhere close to being the same thing.
 
[...]

By using the traditional definition of function we get well-defined sizes like |N| or |R|.

By using the non-traditional definition of function we realize that what is seen as well-defined sizes like |N| or |R| (by using the traditional definition of function) are not well-defined sizes, or in other words, sets with unbounded amount of members do not have well-defined sizes (well-defined sizes can be found only among sets with bounded amount of members).

[...]


Here is where the problem really stands out for me. It appears you admit that the "traditional" definitions of 'function' and 'cardinality' are coherent. You clearly admit that using these definitions, the cardinality of infinite sets is well defined.



Then you appear to say that a benefit of expanding 'function' to mean partial function and cardinality to mean (something) is that we can no longer coherently define unique cardinalities for infinite sets.



This raises some questions: How is it a benefit to give up a coherent definition of cardinality that works for a definition of cardinality that does not work? Mathematicians already have the definition of partial function, so how are you proposing any change (other than a notational one) by "expanding" 'function' to mean partial function? Further, even if we adopt your terminology, we could easily recover the traditional definition of function in terms of yours, such as: "a traditional function is a (doron) function such that no member of the domain is mapped to nothing." Something like that, but rigorous. Again, since we can recover the exact things mathematics already has, how is this a change? How does it reveal anything other than the superiority of the traditional definition of cardinality?
 
Welcome BenjaminTR, expect lots of links to previous posts which conveniently hide the rebuttals.
 
Thank you for your detailed post.

The traditional way which provides the values of relative cardinality (which is not restricted to finite amounts), is done by "x in X has exactly one y in Y" definition of function.

The non-traditional way which provides the values of relative cardinality (which is not restricted to finite amounts), is done by "x in X has at most one y in Y" definition of function.

Yes, yes, I know of your obsession with this private meaning of 'function', but I am interested in your private meaning of 'cardinality'. Given two sets, how does one establish a comparative relationship between their cardinalities in Doronetics? I provided you a precise condition in normal mathematics that, when met, established a definite relationship. What have you got?
 
Welcome BenjaminTR.

EDIT:

Here is where the problem really stands out for me. It appears you admit that the "traditional" definitions of 'function' and 'cardinality' are coherent. You clearly admit that using these definitions, the cardinality of infinite sets is well defined.
It is |N| = |N| OR |N| > |N|, where |N| = |N| is provided by both traditional and non-traditional definition of function , and |N| > |N| is provided only by the non-traditional definition of function.

Then you appear to say that a benefit of expanding 'function' to mean partial function and cardinality to mean (something) is that we can no longer coherently define unique cardinalities for infinite sets.

This raises some questions: How is it a benefit to give up a coherent definition of cardinality that works for a definition of cardinality that does not work? Mathematicians already have the definition of partial function, so how are you proposing any change (other than a notational one) by "expanding" 'function' to mean partial function?
The term partial-function is a generalization of "regular" function, such that not every object of the domain have a function with exactly one object of the codomain, so partial-function is not the non-traditional definition, which enables (also) function from something to nothing.

Further, even if we adopt your terminology, we could easily recover the traditional definition of function in terms of yours, such as: "a traditional function is a (doron) function such that no member of the domain is mapped to nothing." Something like that, but rigorous.
Nothing is recovered, you simply use the traditional definition of function (whether it is partial or not) and reject the non-traditional definition, which enables (also) function from something to nothing.

Again, since we can recover the exact things mathematics already has, how is this a change? How does it reveal anything other than the superiority of the traditional definition of cardinality?
On the contrary, the non-traditional definition of function , which enables (also) function from something to nothing, is the more comprehended one because it provides usual traditional results like |N| = |N| OR non-traditional results like |N| > |N|.
 
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What you managed to do is wordgarble the following two items together:

mapping:

A -> B

mapping function:

func(A) -> B

These two are nowhere close to being the same thing.

Let me help here:

"func(A)" is the same as "A ->", where "func()" is the same as "->" and "A" is the input of "func()" or "->".
 
I provided you a precise condition in normal mathematics that, when met, established a definite relationship. What have you got?

EDIT:

In http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9744538&postcount=3030 I provided you a precise condition in non-traditional mathematics that, when met, established a definite relationship among sets with bounded amount of members, or unbounded amount of members, (where one pf the options (only) among sets with unbounded amount of members is, for example, |N| > |N|).

I know of your obsession with this traditional meaning of 'function'. What have you got other than that?
 
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Let me help here:

"func(A)" is the same as "A ->", where "func()" is the same as "->" and "A" is the input of "func()" or "->".

So you have *no* way to unambiguously know what -> actually means *unless* you know the definition of the specific function?

How would you write down a mapping where A -> B and which has for each A a corresponding B? (in your words, *always* an output)

And if you have written down the above, how would one know the distinction between the two?

Face it, when it comes to the difference between mapping and mapping function you have nothing to show :)
 
Highlighting mine.

So, you still are in denial about your abysmal language skills?

What *your* highlighted text says is that I can write for example the formula for impulse (which is J = Ft = mv = int(F) dt) as:

N=NN=NN=int(N) dN

Do you see what your horrible skills in language do?

And of course you conveniently tried to ignore the above...
 
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