Deeper than primes - Continuation

Status
Not open for further replies.
The term partial-function is a generalization of "regular" function, such that not every object of the domain have a function with exactly one object of the codomain, so partial-function is not the non-traditional definition, which enables (also) function from something to nothing.

Classic Doron!

Besides the "Yeah, it's a bit, like, you know, handwaving 'n stuff..." tone of it, he does not even notice his double negation (I bet it gets edited out later, after he sees me correcting him again).

*not* the *non-traditional* means, Doron, it *is* the traditional...
 
The term partial-function is a generalization of "regular" function, such that not every object of the domain have a function with exactly one object of the codomain, so partial-function is not the non-traditional definition, which enables (also) function from something to nothing.

Not quite. As it is most commonly used, the meaning of 'domain' is the same for partial functions as it is for (total) functions.


By the way, your use of the word, nothing, is ambiguous. Do you mean literally that the function maps a something to an instance of 'nothing' -- in which case then, "nothing" is in the range of the function and your tortured insistence on a private meaning for 'function' is without merit -- or do you mean that there is something that function does not map to anything at all -- in which case then, that something is not in the domain of the (partial) function and your tortured insistence on a private meaning for 'function' is without merit.
 
Last edited:
Face it, when it comes to the difference between mapping and mapping function you have nothing to show :)
Face it, you simply reject "x in X has at most one y in Y".

A given (non-traditional) function always has an input, but it has OR does not have an output, and this is exactly the meaning of "at most" of the non-traditional definition of one and only one kind of function (which (again) has OR does not have an output).
 
Last edited:
And of course you conveniently tried to ignore the above...
realpaladin, the discussion is about two kinds of definitions of function, which are used in order to compare a given set with itself or with another set.

The traditional definition is "x in X has exactly one y in Y".

The non-traditional definition is "x in X has at most one y in Y".

Please be focused on the above definitions, and how they are enable to provide the functions that are used in order to compare a given set with itself or with another set.
 
Last edited:
realpaladin, the discussion is about two kinds of definitions of function, which are used in order to compare a given set with itself or with another set.

The traditional definition is "x in X has exactly one y in Y".

The non-traditional definition is "x in X has at most one y in Y".

Please be focused on the above definitions, and how they are enable to provide the functions that are used in order to compare a given set with itself or with another set.

Nice try, the fact is that there *is* no discussion because you fail to get your language right.

I asked you in the most simple and atomic way to show some rigour in your 'discourse' and you fail that.

You keep moving the goalposts because you need to weasel out of providing a good answer.

I can, and will, focus if, and only if, you provide a good dictionary and definitions.
 
Not quite. As it is most commonly used, the meaning of 'domain' is the same for partial functions as it is for (total) functions.
Yet in the case of partial functions, not all the objects of the domain have mapping with one object of the codomain. Anyway both traditional cases have exactly one object of the codomain (where the non-traditional case has at most one object of the codomain.

By the way, your use of the word, nothing, is ambiguous. Do you mean literally that the function maps a something to an instance of 'nothing' -- in which case then, "nothing" is in the range of the function and your tortured insistence on a private meaning for 'function' is without merit -- or do you mean that there is something that function does not map to anything at all -- in which case then, that something is not in the domain of the (partial) function and your tortured insistence on a private meaning for 'function' is without merit.

Something to nothing, is the case where a given object of the domain (something) has a function that does not return anything from the codomain, or in other words, we have something in the domain that is beyond the range of the codomain.
 
Face it, you simply reject "x in X has at most one y in Y".

That should elicit a hearty chuckle in everyone reading the thread...

Show me where I reject that!

A given (non-traditional) function always has an input, but it has OR does not have an output, and this is exactly the meaning of "at most" of the non-traditional definition of one and only one kind of function (which (again) has OR does not have an output).

And again with the wordgarble:

Does at most mean zero or more, or does it mean none or any number up to ?

Since you reject any common language with anyone on this planet, everything you write down, until you tie yourself to a common ground, is utter gibberish.
 
Face it, you simply reject "x in X has at most one y in Y".



A given (non-traditional) function always has an input, but it has OR does not have an output, and this is exactly the meaning of "at most" of the non-traditional definition of one and only one kind of function (which (again) has OR does not have an output).
Why must a function always have an input? Why not expand the definition of function even further and let functions have an output that is not the value of the function for an input? I am pretty confident it would render much more of traditional mathematics meaningless, which you have already claimed is a benefit we should strive for.



We can also show that functions need not always have inputs by considering your version of Hilbert's Hotel. Suppose room 2 is empty. Define f() as the function from the set of names of all people in the hotel (which is the set of natural numbers) to the names of rooms (natural numbers again). It turns out that 2 is not the output for any input of f(). Yet room 2 did not disappear; it is just empty. This means that 2 is the output of nothing. It is still part of the function, though, since the function tells us who is in each room. Thus, functions can have outputs without inputs. QED



(Note: I am not actually proposing this as a viable strategy. I am just showing the consequences of doron's reasoning.)



(Note also: thanks for the welcome, realpaladin, though I participated in this thread for a while a few months ago.)
 
Why must a function always have an input? Why not expand the definition of function even further and let functions have an output that is not the value of the function for an input? I am pretty confident it would render much more of traditional mathematics meaningless, which you have already claimed is a benefit we should strive for.



We can also show that functions need not always have inputs by considering your version of Hilbert's Hotel. Suppose room 2 is empty. Define f() as the function from the set of names of all people in the hotel (which is the set of natural numbers) to the names of rooms (natural numbers again). It turns out that 2 is not the output for any input of f(). Yet room 2 did not disappear; it is just empty. This means that 2 is the output of nothing. It is still part of the function, though, since the function tells us who is in each room. Thus, functions can have outputs without inputs. QED



(Note: I am not actually proposing this as a viable strategy. I am just showing the consequences of doron's reasoning.)



(Note also: thanks for the welcome, realpaladin, though I participated in this thread for a while a few months ago.)
BenjaminTR, such case provides exactly the same results as given by "x in X has at most one y in Y".

So "x in X has at most one y in Y" holds for both cases.
 
Last edited:
Yet in the case of partial functions, not all the objects of the domain have mapping with one object of the codomain.

No, that was the whole point of what I wrote. Every element of the domain, be it of a partial function or a total function, is mapped by the function to an element of the range.


Something to nothing, is the case where a given object of the domain (something) has a function that does not return anything from the codomain, or in other words, we have something in the domain that is beyond the range of the codomain.

Ok, it is not really the definition of function with which you have issue; it is domain.


Now, about that definition for cardinality...How's that coming along?
 
That should elicit a hearty chuckle in everyone reading the thread...

Show me where I reject that!



And again with the wordgarble:

Does at most mean zero or more, or does it mean none or any number up to ?

Since you reject any common language with anyone on this planet, everything you write down, until you tie yourself to a common ground, is utter gibberish.
By "at most one" I mean "one or nothing at all".
 
No, that was the whole point of what I wrote. Every element of the domain, be it of a partial function or a total function, is mapped by the function to an element of the range.
In the case of partial function not all the elements of the domain are mapped by the function to an element of the range.

Now, about that definition for cardinality...How's that coming along?
EDIT:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9747517&postcount=3038 and this time please go beyond your "Yes, yes" http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9746481&postcount=3035 replay.
 
Last edited:

This is about the dumbest linkdump you ever have done...

What has:

Classic Doron!

Besides the "Yeah, it's a bit, like, you know, handwaving 'n stuff..." tone of it, he does not even notice his double negation (I bet it gets edited out later, after he sees me correcting him again).

*not* the *non-traditional* means, Doron, it *is* the traditional...
It was written by using informal language, so please do not use formal language in this case.

To do with:

Welcome BenjaminTR.

EDIT:


It is |N| = |N| OR |N| > |N|, where |N| = |N| is provided by both traditional and non-traditional definition of function , and |N| > |N| is provided only by the non-traditional definition of function.




The term partial-function is a generalization of "regular" function, such that not every object of the domain have a function with exactly one object of the codomain, so partial-function is not the non-traditional definition, which enables (also) function from something to nothing.


Nothing is recovered, you simply use the traditional definition of function (whether it is partial or not) and reject the non-traditional definition, which enables (also) function from something to nothing.


On the contrary, the non-traditional definition of function , which enables (also) function from something to nothing, is the more comprehended one because it provides usual traditional results like |N| = |N| OR non-traditional results like |N| > |N|.

Ab-so-lu-te-ly nothing!

You mention garbage like 'informal language', then I give you a chance to redeem yourself and as a reply you give me the above...

If that does not prove to anyone reading this thread that you must have taken the blue pill then nothing will...

Tell me, why again do you say this is not about your reading comprehension or writing skills (or rather, the absolute lack thereof)?
 
In the case of partial function not all the elements of the domain are mapped by the function to an element of the range.

As I said, you have your own private meaning of 'domain'.


The first link leads to a post claiming you provided details of your cardinality definition in yet another post, but it provides not definition, itself, so in that regard, your first link is a fail.

The post it in turn links to is same one that has already been rejected because it does not describe a specific criterion for establishing any relationship between the cardinalities of two sets. None.

Perhaps if you conformed to the following template, your meaning would be more obvious to the rest of us:

"Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is <relational operator> the cardinality of set B if and only if <some explicit condition>."

You may need more than one such statement to provide for all the possible relationships. I used less than or equal to as the relational operator, and when coupled with its negation spans the six possible relations. (The construction excludes any possibility of no relationship existing.)
 
Ab-so-lu-te-ly nothing!

You mention garbage like 'informal language', then I give you a chance to redeem yourself and as a reply you give me the above...

"so partial-function is not the non-traditional definition" is written in informal language.
 
I used less than or equal to as the relational operator, and when coupled with its negation spans the six possible relations. (The construction excludes any possibility of no relationship existing.)
Please explicitly write the all six possible relations.

I understand it as:

=
>
<
not =
not >
not <
 
Last edited:
Please explicitly write the all six possible relations.

I understand it as:

=
>
<
not =
not >
not <

Doron, I gave you an example on how to do this:

  • = Equality. Both elements before and after the infix operator are considered equal if and only if they can be interchanged at will without modifying the truth of the equation.
  • > Greater than. The element before the infix operator is considered greater if and only if the value as an integer is higher than the value as an integer of the element after the infix operator.
  • etc...

The above is *an example*. So just define things, don't list them.
 
Please explicitly write the all six possible relations.

I understand it as:

=
>
<
not =
not >
not <

Yes, those would be they, or the equivalent set, =, >, <, ~=, <=, and >=.

Now, can you provide a sufficient set of: "Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is <relational operator> the cardinality of set B if and only if <some explicit condition>."
 
Yes, those would be they, or the equivalent set, =, >, <, ~=, <=, and >=.

Now, can you provide a sufficient set of: "Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is <relational operator> the cardinality of set B if and only if <some explicit condition>."

EDIT:

The definition of A = B, is X, such that:
X is "for any a in A the term 'there is exactly-one b in B' is satisfied"

The definition of A < B, is Y, such that:
Y is "for any b in B the term 'there is exactly-one a in A' is not satisfied"

The definition of A > B, is Z, such that:
Z is "for any a in A the term 'there is exactly-one b in B' is not satisfied"

----------------------

Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is = the cardinality of set B if and only if X.

Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is < the cardinality of set B if and only if Y.

Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is > the cardinality of set B if and only Z.

Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is <= the cardinality of set B if and only if (Y OR X).

Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is =< the cardinality of set B if and only if (X OR Y). (can be omitted)

Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is >= the cardinality of set B if and only if (Z OR X).

Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is => the cardinality of set B if and only if (X OR Z). (can be omitted)

Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is <> the cardinality of set B if and only if (Y OR Z).

Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is >< the cardinality of set B if and only if (Z OR Y). (can be omitted)
 
Last edited:
The definition of A = B, is X, such that:
X is "for any a in A the term 'there is exactly-one b in B' is satisfied"
...
The definition of A > B, is Z, such that:
Z is "for any a in A the term 'there is exactly-one b in B' is not satisfied"


Ok, these two should be sufficient to cover all six relations.

The heart of your private cardinality definition, then, is "for any a in A the term "there is exactly-one b in B" is/is not satisfied'.

This "is/is not satisfied", do you mean the existence of some doron-function that maps from A to B? Are there more considerations the doron-function has to meet? And is it a "there exists" or a "for all" qualifier? E.g., do you mean for the first statement in the quotation:

The cardinality of the two sets are equal if and only if there exists a doron-function from A to B in which ever a in A maps to exactly one b in B.​

...or are there additional or other constraints you meant to include?
 
Last edited:
EDIT:

The definition of A = B, is X, such that:
X is "for any a in A the term 'there is exactly-one b in B' is satisfied"

The definition of A < B, is Y, such that:
Y is "for any b in B the term 'there is exactly-one a in A' is not satisfied"

The definition of A > B, is Z, such that:
Z is "for any a in A the term 'there is exactly-one b in B' is not satisfied"

----------------------

Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is = the cardinality of set B if and only if X.

Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is < the cardinality of set B if and only if Y.

Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is > the cardinality of set B if and only Z.

Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is <= the cardinality of set B if and only if (Y OR X).

Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is =< the cardinality of set B if and only if (X OR Y). (can be omitted)

Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is >= the cardinality of set B if and only if (Z OR X).

Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is => the cardinality of set B if and only if (X OR Z). (can be omitted)

Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is <> the cardinality of set B if and only if (Y OR Z).

Given two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is >< the cardinality of set B if and only if (Z OR Y). (can be omitted)

Before he re-edits it.
 
The heart of your private cardinality definition, then, is "for any a in A the term "there is exactly-one b in B" is/is not satisfied'

This "is/is not satisfied", do you mean the existence of some doron-function that maps from A to B? Are there more considerations the doron-function has to meet? And is it a "there exists" or a "for all" qualifier? E.g., do you mean for the first statement in the quotation:

The cardinality of the two sets are equal if and only if there exists a doron-function from A to B in which ever a in A maps to exactly one b in B.​

...or are there additional or other constraints you meant to include?

Ok let's define it as follows:

For all a in A there is at most one b in B.

It means that there is function from A to B, whether this functon has or does not have an output (one b in B).
 
The heart of your private cardinality definition, then, is "for any a in A the term "there is exactly-one b in B" is/is not satisfied'

This "is/is not satisfied", do you mean the existence of some doron-function that maps from A to B? Are there more considerations the doron-function has to meet? And is it a "there exists" or a "for all" qualifier? E.g., do you mean for the first statement in the quotation:

The cardinality of the two sets are equal if and only if there exists a doron-function from A to B in which ever a in A maps to exactly one b in B.​

...or are there additional or other constraints you meant to include?

Ok let's define it as follows:

For all a in A there is at most one b in B.

It means that there is function from A to B, whether this functon has or does not have an output (one b in B).
 
Ok let's define it as follows:

For all a in A there is at most one b in B.

It means that there is function from A to B, whether this functon has or does not have an output (one b in B).



So, then:

Give two sets, A and B, the doron-cardinality of the set A = the doron-cardinality of set B if and only if there exists a doron-function from A to B in which ever a in A maps to exactly one b in B.

and

Give two sets, A and B, the doron-cardinality of the set A > the doron-cardinality of set B if and only if there exists a doron-function from A to B in at least one a in A does not map to any b in B.

Is that right?
 
Last edited:
So, then:

Give two sets, A and B, the doron-cardinality of the set A = the doron-cardinality of set B if and only if there exists a doron-function from A to B in which ever a in A maps to exactly one b in B.

and

Give two sets, A and B, the doron-cardinality of the set A > the doron-cardinality of set B if and only if there exists a doron-function from A to B in at least one a in A does not map to any b in B.

Is that right?

EDIT:


No, it has to be like that:

Give two sets, A and B, the doron-cardinality of the set A = the doron-cardinality of set B if and only if there is doron-function from A to B such that for all a in A there is exactly one b in B.

OR

Give two sets, A and B, the doron-cardinality of the set A > the doron-cardinality of set B if and only if there is doron-function from A to B such that for all a in A there is at least one a in A that does not have any b in B.


B.T.W, unlike the traditional (total) case, which according to it for all a in A there is exactly one b in B, the non-traditional view of function has to consider also A < B, where in this case there is no function from A to B for at least one b in B.

This case was mentioned by BinjaminTR in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9748206&postcount=3049, but if all we care is equality or non-equality, then > or < can be used for non-equality.
 
Last edited:
No, it has to be like that:

Given two sets, A and B, the doron-cardinality of the set A = the doron-cardinality of set B if and only if there exists a doron-function from A to B such that for all a in A there is exactly one b in B.

OR

Given two sets, A and B, the doron-cardinality of the set A > the doron-cardinality of set B if and only if there exists a doron-function from A to B such that for all a in A there is least one a in A that does not have any b in B.

(I silently fixed a typo I'd injected and you merely copied. Given, not give. And the correct conjunction is AND, not OR, for these two statements that make up the definition of doron-cardinality, but let's not get side-tracked by that.)

Ok, let's try this out. Consider A = {1, 2} and B = {X, Y, Z}.

Consider also the doron-function, f1: A -> B:

f1(1) = X
f1(2) = Z

The criterion of the first definition statement is satisfied, therefore, |A| = |B|.

Now consider the doron-fucntion, f2: A -> B:

f2(1) = Z
f2(2) =

The criterion of the second statement is satisfied, therefore, |A| > |B|.

I'm not seeing the utility of doron-cardinality. Is there any?
 
I'm not seeing the utility of doron-cardinality. Is there any?

More importantly, how is doron-cardinality superior to this:

Given any two sets, A and B, the cardinality of set A is less than or equal to the cardinality of set B if and only if there exists a one-to-one mapping from A to B.

This version of cardinality is well-defined and consistent. It does not lead to contraction. Doron-cardinality, not so much.
 
Reading the previous, I completely fail to see how this could not have been modelled in AGDA.

Doron, you did not even try, did you?
 
(I silently fixed a typo I'd injected and you merely copied. Given, not give. And the correct conjunction is AND, not OR, for these two statements that make up the definition of doron-cardinality, but let's not get side-tracked by that.)

Ok, let's try this out. Consider A = {1, 2} and B = {X, Y, Z}.

Consider also the doron-function, f1: A -> B:

f1(1) = X
f1(2) = Z

The criterion of the first definition statement is satisfied, therefore, |A| = |B|.

Now consider the doron-fucntion, f2: A -> B:

f2(1) = Z
f2(2) =

The criterion of the second statement is satisfied, therefore, |A| > |B|.

I'm not seeing the utility of doron-cardinality. Is there any?

EDIT:

Consider A={1,2} and B={X,Y,Z}

f1(1) = X
f1(2) = Y

that is also can be written as
Code:
{1,2}
 ↓ ↓
{X,Y,Z}

So, there is one case of no function from all the elements of A to some element of B (element Z, in this case), and we can conclude that |A|<|B|.

Consider A={X,Y,Z} and B={1,2}

f2(X) = 1
f2(Y) = 2
f2(Z) =

that is also can be written as
Code:
{X,Y,Z}
 ↓ ↓ ↓
{1,2}

So, there is one case of function without any return from all the elements of A to all the elements of B, and we can conclude that |A|>|B|.

---------------------------------

Since by the traditional (total) function for all a in A there is exactly one b in B, we get this:

Consider A={1,2} and B={X,Y,Z}

f1(1) = X
f1(2) = Y

that is also can be written as
Code:
{1,2}
 ↓ ↓
{X,Y,Z}

So, there is one case of no function from all the elements of A to some element of B (element Z, in this case), and we can conclude that |A|<|B|.

Consider A={X,Y,Z} and B={1,2}

f1(X) = 1
f1(Y) = 2

that is also can be written as
Code:
{X,Y,Z}
 ↓ ↓  
{1,2}

So, there is one case of no function from all the elements of A (element Z, in this case) to all the elements of B, and we can conclude that |A|>|B|.

----------------------------

B.T.W, if "being beyond the range" of some collection (whether it has bounded or unbounded amount of elements) is shown by "no function at all" or by "function with input that does not have any output", then the traditional and the non-traditional definitions

Both cases enable to conclude that |A| > or < |B|, and in this case we actually use only the traditional definition of function on Hilbert's Hotel by using the term "no function at all" in order to show that |N| > |N| or |N| < |N|.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom