Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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RandyN said:
I think Frank writes a story about the case a little too politely. No matter I suppose. If Bongiorno was the big gun in this defense then she apparently had a misfire. No TOD debate...rather she talked about the interrogation to which the judge asks her...how can we read this when the SC disallows it? And so with that great opening she fails to capitalize much on the fact that the information was brought illegally into the case by Lumumbas lawyer and by Mignini and by Massei.

She could have downloaded the clip of the climber from YouTube while in the court. Frank said she has bigger issues on her mind. Does she have an assistant? Someone with a smartphone? This is simply not hard. When the judge asks do you have a video...??? WHY YES...Yes I do. Watch how easy this climb actually is...better yet why no defense produced video? No defense produced sound test of Naras? No defense produced video that compares the large knife with the bed sheet imprints? Why no questions about the missing DNA tests? If Diocletus can list them and do it then why not a highly paid legal firm? This is powerful data. Missing egrams... just certain samples....why? If you cant provide the accomplices (and if there were accomplices someone knows about them besides the perps) Guede had a criminal element to his life...he most likely had criminal elemental friends to go with that. Someone knows who those people were...he was not a antisocial loner after all. Kokos car, Kokos testimony that Guede wanted to rent that car, Kokos timely trip home. But nothing. Nothing much for these guys to think about anyway. Bloody pics from downstairs??? Good. Follow that up with the facts about missing samples from down there. Messed up bloody bed, wet flip flops...easy access with keys...

Lumumba silenced from his police abuse rants with the curious months long seizure of his business....perhaps leave out the silenced part and just ask what the police and prosecutor were doing that for. We all know why they did it. Do the Italians? Did the Italians see the Ch5 video? Why no Porta Porta video of the cottage climb and sound checks, etc...? Seems like that would be right up their alley.

These are not hard things but easy things to do. The CH 5 reporters did more with far less facts and details and still making lots of errors and yet they make a good case for innocence...certainly reasonable doubt. But the defenses are reminding me of how they handled the last two big trials...Massei they did nothing...and Hellmann they did nothing...but thankfully Hellmann and Zanetti ask all the right defensive questions and made the defense case for them.

These lawyers are all to a T far in over their heads...Perhaps Yummi/Mach is correct...they were each chosen for their political connections...so far that doesn't seem to be panning out too well. Lets face it....it is not like this is a tough or even opaque case. It is a sham and a joke and the defense have failed to call anyone to task for such a rotten fact-less case...Sorry but Maresca is doing a better job than these defense people....and that is saying less than nothing actually. Shameful. RS is in serious jeopardy. Knox not so much.
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I agree the defense have not been asking enough awkward questions. On the injustice in perugia forum I started a thread on awkward questions people would like to ask the prosecution. These were some of the questions which came up:-

* Why did the prosecution have to tell so many lies if they had a strong case.

* Why did Stefanoni refuse to release the edf files.

* Why was the bra clasp not collected for six weeks.

* Why were the luminol prints not taken until six weeks after the murder.

* Why were the interrogations not taped.

* Why did Stefanoni continue to test the knife when the results came back too low.
 
acbytesla said:
It didn't. It was some random guy who just came in off the street who stabbed Meredith and ran away when he encountered Rudy. Truly, the most stupid story I have ever heard told by an adult. It reminds me of a story that a 4 or 5 year old will tell when you discover that the cookies were mysteriously eaten. "Well Dad, some guy just broke into the house and took the Oreos. I tried to stop him but he was too big for me".
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I know. I agree, but it's still an interesting theory.

There's a newspaper cartoon strip, "Family Circle", that sometimes features this character, "NotMe" or something like that, that was blamed for all the trouble the kids got into. Or, something like that.

Rudy's problem, if that story is true, is he shouldn't have left his DNA inside Meredith, That was evil or extremely bad luck if he actually did have consensual sex with Meredith. You can't get around the fact that he was in the room after she was stabbed, and if it's true that he really did try to save Meredith and then left her to die, that's not a friend at all.

How can someone who saw Meredith as a beautiful flower, how could some one live with himself after leaving her there to die and then go out dancing. How can anyone defend that?

Yet, even more evidence that this hate of Amanda is not because they're trying to remember Meredith. This is something more psychologically twisted than anything bad they could ever say about Amanda,

d

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AmyStrange said:
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I know. I agree, but it's still an interesting theory.

There's a newspaper cartoon strip, "Family Circle", that sometimes features this character, "NotMe" or something like that, that was blamed for all the trouble the kids got into. Or, something like that.

Rudy's problem, if that story is true, is he shouldn't have left his DNA inside Meredith, That was evil or extremely bad luck if he actually did have consensual sex with Meredith. You can't get around the fact that he was in the room after she was stabbed, and if it's true that he really did try to save Meredith and then left her to die, that's not a friend at all.

How can someone who saw Meredith as a beautiful flower, how could some one live with himself after leaving her there to die and then go out dancing. How can anyone defend that?

Yet, even more evidence that this hate of Amanda is not because they're trying to remember Meredith. This is something more psychologically twisted than anything bad they could ever say about Amanda,

d

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No, with all due respect Amy, Rudy's problem is that he's lying, and he's bad at it. The story is also not that interesting. And considering someone actually got killed, it's not humorous. The simple fact is that there's even less reason for a stranger come in off the street to kill Meredith than Amanda and Raffaele, It makes zero sense.

As you said, Rudy shouldn't have left his DNA inside Meredith, or his shoe prints or his DNA inside Meredith's purse. But beyond the physical evidence. Rudy incriminated himself in oh so many ways. There was his flight from the country and unlike Amanda and Raffaele, Rudy makes this incredibly incriminating statement not while under the coercive powers of the police, but during a conversation with his friend Giacomo and it was recorded.

Rudy's explanation as to what happened that evening make even less sense than the silly prosecution explanations involving Amanda and Raffaele. It's clear that Rudy is lying to fit what he thinks the evidence is against him. This is why I think Rudy's timing of Meredith's death is so important. There is no reason for Rudy to lie about that detail. It gives him nothing, so why would he lie about that detail? Pf course we know that Amanda and Raffaele were at his apartment at that time.

I agree with you about how horrible the idea of going dancing after the murder is as well as the haters.
 
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acbytesla said:
No, with all due respect Amy, Rudy's problem is that he's lying, and he's bad at it. The story is also not that interesting. And considering someone actually got killed, it's not humorous. The simple fact is that there's even less reason for a stranger come in off the street to kill Meredith than Amanda and Raffaele, It makes zero sense.

As you said, Rudy shouldn't have left his DNA inside Meredith, or his shoe prints or his DNA inside Meredith's purse. But beyond the physical evidence. Rudy incriminated himself in oh so many ways. There was his flight from the country and unlike Amanda and Raffaele, Rudy makes this incredibly incriminating statement not while under the coercive powers of the police, but during a conversation with his friend Giacomo and it was recorded.

Rudy's explanation as to what happened that evening make even less sense than the silly prosecution explanations involving Amanda and Raffaele. It's clear that Rudy is lying to fit what he thinks the evidence is against him. This is why I think Rudy's timing of Meredith's death is so important. There is no reason for Rudy to lie about that detail. It gives him nothing, so why would he lie about that detail? Pf course we know that Amanda and Raffaele were at his apartment at that time.
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Well you can use whatever adjective you want, boring, interesting, or horrifyingly interesting, I still think it's an interesting theory and Rudy's problem wasn't lying about it, it was that he left Meredith there to die. How can anyone defend that like the PGP camp does,

d

ETA: I'm not referring to you Acbytesla in the last sentence

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acbytesla said:
No, with all due respect Amy, Rudy's problem is that he's lying, and he's bad at it. The story is also not that interesting. And considering someone actually got killed, it's not humorous. The simple fact is that there's even less reason for a stranger come in off the street to kill Meredith than Amanda and Raffaele, It makes zero sense.

As you said, Rudy shouldn't have left his DNA inside Meredith, or his shoe prints or his DNA inside Meredith's purse. But beyond the physical evidence. Rudy incriminated himself in oh so many ways. There was his flight from the country and unlike Amanda and Raffaele, Rudy makes this incredibly incriminating statement not while under the coercive powers of the police, but during a conversation with his friend Giacomo and it was recorded.

Rudy's explanation as to what happened that evening make even less sense than the silly prosecution explanations involving Amanda and Raffaele. It's clear that Rudy is lying to fit what he thinks the evidence is against him. This is why I think Rudy's timing of Meredith's death is so important. There is no reason for Rudy to lie about that detail. It gives him nothing, so why would he lie about that detail? Pf course we know that Amanda and Raffaele were at his apartment at that time.

I agree with you about how horrible the idea of going dancing after the murder is as well as the haters.
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The nutjobs on the tjmk/pmf villify Amanda for her behavior but are strangely quiet about Rudy going dancing as if nothing had happened after brutally murdering someone.
 
AmyStrange said:
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Well you can use whatever adjective you want, boring, interesting, or horrifyingly interesting, I still think it's an interesting theory and Rudy's problem wasn't lying about it, it was that he left Meredith there to die. How can anyone defend that like the PGP camp does,

d

ETA: I'm not referring to you Acbytesla in the last sentence

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Maybe I'm confused Amy. I'm not sure what theory you are talking about. Maybe we aren't talking about the same thing. I'm just saying that Rudy's story about what happened that evening is not believable by anyone that has half a mind.

BTW. I knew you weren't referring to me.. but thanks for pointing that out.
 
acbytesla said:
Rudy was a burglar. PERIOD.
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Maybe for a simple minded computer repair technician that would call himself a doctor in Italy. He was also involved in some way in both the college night life culture and most likely did a little low level dealing.

He and Koko were alleged to know each other. The drug business is run by the Albanians. Koko is Albanian.

There is more than enough evidence to suggest that the cottage was (at minimum) the fifth burglary that Rudy had committed in about a 35 day span. Rudy admitted being there during a recorded conversation with a friend. Rudy also during that same conversation said Amanda and Raffaele were not there. There is no evidence of any relationship between Raffaele and Rudy and Rudy had only met Amanda briefly. Rudy also came up with bizarre stories to explain the murder. Why would he cover for Amanda and Raffaele considering he didn't really know either?
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If he had been with an Albanian enforcer type accomplice perhaps he wasn't covering for the kids but rather for him. This professional thug would have made it clear what would happen to Rudy if he talked.

Please list out the five burglaries and the verification. One reference in a true crime novel isn't credible.

Rudy said he had a date with Meredith. Something nobody could confirm and most people (with the exception of Grinder) reject.
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Whoa Shinola. The police (when you weren't following the case) on day two thought the evidence pointed to someone she knew and the sex was consensual. They made Meredith out to be a 'party girl' that was killed by a man she had met the night before. This story seemed to change after it became known that she was the daughter of a connected brit.

Although you are not used to any nuance I also said that Rudy may have thought he had an arrangement. Rudy was an in shape, attractive enough young man that could easily have appealed to Meredith. Her boyfriend on the other hand was far less attractive.

The testimony that Rudy wasn't around was given by her drunken friends one of whom needed to be driven home only a days before. These brit girls were drunks. Meredith seems to have been a heavy drinker, so much so that most here maintain the drink equivalent in her system at death was left over from the night before which would have made her nearly comatose at 5 am.
 
Welshman said:
The nutjobs on the tjmk/pmf villify Amanda for her behavior but are strangely quiet about Rudy going dancing as if nothing had happened after brutally murdering someone.
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Yes that is true. They are strangely silent about Rudy in any context. How does Mignini himself refer to the murderer as "poor Rudy".
 
Grinder said:
If he had been with an Albanian enforcer type accomplice perhaps he wasn't covering for the kids but rather for him. This professional thug would have made it clear what would happen to Rudy if he talked.
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I have thought about the possibility of Rudy committing the crime with drug or B&E accomplices. I don't rule it out, but I'd find it more probable if he hadn't been all by himself on the two occasions I am aware of when he was spotted by the householder/business owner.
 
Grinder said:
Maybe for a simple minded computer repair technician that would call himself a doctor in Italy. He was also involved in some way in both the college night life culture and most likely did a little low level dealing.

He and Koko were alleged to know each other. The drug business is run by the Albanians. Koko is Albanian.



If he had been with an Albanian enforcer type accomplice perhaps he wasn't covering for the kids but rather for him. This professional thug would have made it clear what would happen to Rudy if he talked.

Please list out the five burglaries and the verification. One reference in a true crime novel isn't credible.



Whoa Shinola. The police (when you weren't following the case) on day two thought the evidence pointed to someone she knew and the sex was consensual. They made Meredith out to be a 'party girl' that was killed by a man she had met the night before. This story seemed to change after it became known that she was the daughter of a connected brit.

Although you are not used to any nuance I also said that Rudy may have thought he had an arrangement. Rudy was an in shape, attractive enough young man that could easily have appealed to Meredith. Her boyfriend on the other hand was far less attractive.

The testimony that Rudy wasn't around was given by her drunken friends one of whom needed to be driven home only a days before. These brit girls were drunks. Meredith seems to have been a heavy drinker, so much so that most here maintain the drink equivalent in her system at death was left over from the night before which would have made her nearly comatose at 5 am.
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That all may be true Grinder, but a guy can be many things. Why limit yourself? I still don't buy at all that Rudy actually had a date with Meredith. But you can believe whatever you choose. But you would have to admit that there is no confirmation or any evidence to suggest that Rudy did have a date with Meredith.

BTW*** I have no problem with nuance. It is wild theories pulled from a backside that don't smell right to me.
 
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acbytesla said:
Maybe I'm confused Amy. I'm not sure what theory you are talking about. Maybe we aren't talking about the same thing. I'm just saying that Rudy's story about what happened that evening is not believable by anyone that has half a mind.

BTW. I knew you weren't referring to me.. but thanks for pointing that out.
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I think you're spot on and not confused. I'm referring to the theory that Rudy was telling the truth. It's interesting because of the lies that have to be believed to make it work, plus it's what allows you to believe Amanda and Raffaele are guilty, and it's where the PGP seem to be setting up camp.

The psychologically twisted contortions you have to invent for it to be acceptable is unbelievable, but also interesting in a psychological and legal sense, at least to me anyway.

Sorry if that insults you,

d

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Grinder said:
Whoa Shinola. The police (when you weren't following the case) on day two thought the evidence pointed to someone she knew and the sex was consensual. They made Meredith out to be a 'party girl' that was killed by a man she had met the night before. This story seemed to change after it became known that she was the daughter of a connected brit.
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That's true, Grinder. However it's also true that a primary reason for them jumping to the conclusion Meredith may have invited her attacker in was that they thought the window impossible to access except by a 'superman' (as per Profazio) thus the broken window must have been part of a 'staging' event rather than the means of entry for the killer. Therefore they considered scenarios which involved someone with a key being involved in the entry of the killer, which (after the possibility Meredith had let him in was considered unpalatable) led to them focusing on those who had keys--and eventually to Amanda and Raffaele.
 
Magister said:
Latest from Frank Sfarzo.... on Bongiorno in court. "An attack too polite"

http://wrongfulconvictionnews.com/a...lecito-appeal-bongiorno-an-attack-too-polite/
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"As we remember Bongiorno closed the first trial with a question. "Are we sure the blood downstairs was from the cat?"

Now she developed that argument showing the pictures of the large stains of blood in the apartment downstairs, recalling that even Giobbi was surprised that a cat could have so much blood.

And she found one of the blood tests from downstairs that says "human blood".

So the others that say "cat blood" could be wrong, and the story of via della Pergola could be different, involving people other than "Sollecito" "


If not Guede's blood then whose?
 
AmyStrange said:
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I think you're spot on and not confused. I'm referring to the theory that Rudy was telling the truth. It's interesting because of the lies that have to be believed to make it work, plus it's what allows you to believe Amanda and Raffaele are guilty, and it's where the PGP seem to be putting up camp.

The psychologically twisted contortions you have to invent for it to be acceptable is unbelievable, but interesting in a psychological and legal sense to me anyway.

Sorry if that insults you,

d

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I agree 100 percent and I'm not sure why I would find that insulting.
 
andreajo said:
I have thought about the possibility of Rudy committing the crime with drug or B&E accomplices. I don't rule it out, but I'd find it more probable if he hadn't been all by himself on the two occasions I am aware of when he was spotted by the householder/business owner.
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There has been some speculation about the lawyers' office because it had an alarm and some thought maybe Rudy would have had help. We have never found out what happened to the other items stolen there.

acbytesla said:
That all may be true Grinder, but a guy can be many things. Why limit yourself? I still don't buy at all that Rudy actually had a date with Meredith. But you can believe whatever you choose. But you would have to admit that there is no confirmation or any evidence to suggest that Rudy did have a date with Meredith.
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Seriously can you read? Perhaps you can't peruse but only scan. There is his own Skype admission that he had a date and was there when she died. You choose to believe everything that fits your theory but not anything that doesn't. Sounds like a PGP approach.

Now try to understand that Meredith and her friends may well have been totally drunk that night and could easily have completely forgotten hours of activity. It is also possible that Rudy convinced himself that he had made an arrangement.

There is no confirmation for all kinds of things that you claim and then after some period of time reclaim but you never prove. Sorry but one true crime novelist doesn't count just like one newspaper story about a cocaine dealer on Amanda's phone doesn't count
 
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Grinder said:
There has been some speculation about the lawyers' office because it had an alarm and some thought maybe Rudy would have had help. We have never found out what happened to the other items stolen there.



Seriously can you read? Perhaps you can't peruse but only scan. There is his own Skype admission that he had a date and was there when she died. You choose to believe everything that fits your theory but not anything that doesn't. Sounds like a PGP approach.

Now try to understand that Meredith and her friends may well have been totally drunk that night and could easily have completely forgotten hours of activity. It is also possible that Rudy convinced himself that he had made an arrangement.

There is no confirmation for all kinds of things that you claim and then after some period of time reclaim but you never prove. Sorry but one true crime novelist doesn't count just like one newspaper story about a cocaine dealer on Amanda's phone doesn't count






BTW*** I have no problem with nuance. It is wild theories pulled from a backside that don't smell right to me.
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If Rudy broke in it is a lie that he had a date, it is that simple.
 
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andreajo said:
I have thought about the possibility of Rudy committing the crime with drug or B&E accomplices. I don't rule it out, but I'd find it more probable if he hadn't been all by himself on the two occasions I am aware of when he was spotted by the householder/business owner.
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I can't remember his name, but the heroin guy who lived on the bench and saw the Disco buses when he said he saw Amanda and Raffaele, I always had a nagging suspicion that he might have been the lookout for Rudy on the outside while he robbed places,

d

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acbytesla said:
Yes that is true. They are strangely silent about Rudy in any context. How does Mignini himself refer to the murderer as "poor Rudy".
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Maybe Mignini, who appreciates how Rudy's lawyer Biscotti tacitly supported Mignini's version of the crime, is concerned that Rudy is unable to pay Biscotti's bill. :D
 
LondonJohn said:
In regard to the actual prank itself: I'd say that there is a massive and important difference between:

a) A "prank" in which people don ski masks, break into an apartment, and terrorise the occupants with threats of rape; and

b) A genuine prank where a bunch of people rearrange somebody's room to make it look like there has been a burglary, then await the "victim's" shock upon discovering the scene, before coming clean and saying it was a prank.


For a start, there's clearly no element of threat of violence of any sort in scenario (b), in stark contrast to the intense threat of violence in (a). And secondly, there's obviously no intent in (b) to do anything other than induce a short-term shock in the "victim", whereas (a) could very clearly induce a very real panic and terror in the victim, which might have long-lasting effects.

I also reiterate that (b) is illustrative of exactly the form of prank that was commonplace in my student days (in fact, far more extreme variants of it were practised). It's preposterous to suggest that it's indicative of any sort of psychological abnormality. It's also preposterous to suggest that it bears any direct relevance to what happened in Perugia on November 1st 2007.
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Isn't it interesting that when Amanda did participate in a staged burglary that she had the sense to ensure it looked like things had been taken. If she knows enough to realize a prank won't go off well if it doesn't look like things were taken, why would she ever attempt a staged break-in (with her life on the line!) without doing the same?

When I was a teenager somehow a group of (West High) seniors managed to get the principal's car on the roof of West High, which was about 4 stories up. I always wondered how they did that. Scuttlebutt was that they disassembled it and reassembled it on the roof, but it still puzzles me as to how they got the frame up there!
 
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acbytesla said:
I agree 100 percent and I'm not sure why I would find that insulting.
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It seemed to me that you took umbrage with my finding it interesting. Besides, even with all the contortions you have to take to believe Rudy's story, I still think his original story may have been true, just not all that probable that it was.

Rudy would have helped his case more if he had at least tried to call 911 (or whatever it is in Italy) and then stayed until the cops or at least the ambulance came, but once he leaves that house and Meredith to die. that's when him and his story begins to really stink to high heaven.

In short, before you even look at the evidence, his story just doesn't sound right and that's being nice,

d

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Samson said:
If Rudy broke in it is a lie that he had a date, it is that simple.
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You don't seem to fluent in Italian dating protocol. When one makes a date on Halloween for the next night it proper to break-in as the 'trick' and be waiting for your date sitting on the toilet.

Now thinking in your way, there are two obvious ways that the window could have been broken if Rudy had a date with Meredith.

One, someone else could have broken in while Rudy sat on the pot (I get to say he was incorrect about the doorbell because of the i-Pod) or two, he could have thrown the rock after killing her because he feared that she had shared their date arrangement and he felt he would be targeted.

I look at these ideas as low probabilities but possibles.
 
Grinder said:
You don't seem to fluent in Italian dating protocol. When one makes a date on Halloween for the next night it proper to break-in as the 'trick' and be waiting for your date sitting on the toilet.

Now thinking in your way, there are two obvious ways that the window could have been broken if Rudy had a date with Meredith.

One, someone else could have broken in while Rudy sat on the pot (I get to say he was incorrect about the doorbell because of the i-Pod) or two, he could have thrown the rock after killing her because he feared that she had shared their date arrangement and he felt he would be targeted.

I look at these ideas as low probabilities but possibles.
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That's what I was thinking also and with him being an experienced crook it makes sense that he would think that way. I just find the breaking in and surprising Meredith more believable overall.

Like I said earlier, he could have helped his case more if he had stayed and called 911 (or whatever it is in Italy) and stayed with Meredith, unless you believe that he had a date with her and killed her because he couldn't get sex. I find that scenario difficult to swallow, but what makes it probable is his actions while Meredith was dying, callous and selfish, but it just doesn't fit right with the rest of the overall scenario, at least in my mind anyway.

There's just something missing like Rudy's history of violent disregard for human life, I still believe Rudy killed her by accident, but that's just me,

d

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acbytesla said:
I'm not saying it isn't John Kercher and if John Kercher is Harry Rag, I don't mind if Doug Bremner or anyone goes after him with both barrels (figuratively, not literally) I also don't care if Doug doesn't provide the proof michelle.

IMHO, I think it is a mistake to say to disclose that Harry Rag is one of the Kerchers without providing the proof along with the evidence. Yes, everyone and his brother unfairly accuses Amanda and Raffaele with anything and everything without proof and the world gives them a free pass. That is wrong. But just because it is wrong, I think we can expect it to continue.

And if there was ironclad proof that one of the Kerchers were Harry Rag, I think that should be sung to the rooftop, but it must include the proof and not just the accusation.
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I can't speak for Doug, but for Steve, he was trying to say he knows (it's been talked about from people in the know) and also trying to explain why he is this way...mean and full of hate. If you read Steve's blog you can understand him more and try to be more compassionate.

However, he's thumbing in our noses know. We've been nice. But if he wants to go this route, we'll do what we have to (even if we didn't want to). He's being quite the jerk and he is on a mission...what they don't know if how foolish they're coming off by the amount of spam they are sending to any and every journalist. I kind of feel sorry for the amount of desperation in what he thinks is for his sister. :( If you think about it it's terribly sad. But there's no excuse good enough for him to be an ass to us...especially when we could have been...
 
michellesings said:
I can't speak for Doug, but for Steve, he was trying to say he knows (it's been talked about from people in the know) and also trying to explain why he is this way...mean and full of hate. If you read Steve's blog you can understand him more and try to be more compassionate.

However, he's thumbing in our noses know. We've been nice. But if he wants to go this route, we'll do what we have to (even if we didn't want to). He's being quite the jerk and he is on a mission...what they don't know if how foolish they're coming off by the amount of spam they are sending to any and every journalist. I kind of feel sorry for the amount of desperation in what he thinks is for his sister. :( If you think about it it's terribly sad. But there's no excuse good enough for him to be an ass to us...especially when we could have been...
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Michelle: Just to be clear, are you saying that Steve has solid, reliable information to support the conclusion that HarryRag/Machine is John Kercher Jr?

If so, can I ask whether you also know what this supporting proof consists of (I am not asking that you share the information itself, though that would be the ideal scenario)?

Because if there indeed is proof (for want of a better word) of that link, it would be of immense interest regarding the "battle for hearts and minds" that has long surrounded this case.
 
LondonJohn said:
Michelle: Just to be clear, are you saying that Steve has solid, reliable information to support the conclusion that HarryRag/Machine is John Kercher Jr?

If so, can I ask whether you also know what this supporting proof consists of (I am not asking that you share the information itself, though that would be the ideal scenario)?

Because if there indeed is proof (for want of a better word) of that link, it would be of immense interest regarding the "battle for hearts and minds" that has long surrounded this case.
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I second this request and add that if the FOA or other pro-Amanda people or groups have evidence of harassment in the form of emails, snail mail, phone messages etc. those too should be made public. This on-going bullying should be exposed and the behavior of these zealots made clear to all.

Making references to inside knowledge, secret sources etc. is bs.
 
Magister said:
"As we remember Bongiorno closed the first trial with a question. "Are we sure the blood downstairs was from the cat?"

Now she developed that argument showing the pictures of the large stains of blood in the apartment downstairs, recalling that even Giobbi was surprised that a cat could have so much blood.

And she found one of the blood tests from downstairs that says "human blood".

So the others that say "cat blood" could be wrong, and the story of via della Pergola could be different, involving people other than "Sollecito" "


If not Guede's blood then whose?
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Have you looked at the video shot in the downstairs apt.? The pattern of bloodstains fits an injured pet more than it does a person who was dripping with blood. I can't see a scenario where Guede (or anyone) would go down there and drip blood on a mattress, on the sofa, and on the bathroom floor, but not do anything else or leave any other sign of his presence. It may be an interesting theory, but there is no solid, reliable evidence that anything like that happened.

I have learned two important general truths in following crime stories:

1. A lot of what is reported in the media turns out to be distorted or outright false.

2. Police investigations routinely turn up unexplained details or coincidences that seem unusual, but turn out not to be connected to the crime.

The method of thinking that has served me well is to focus on the most relevant evidence and ask myself what really happened. I don't try to account for every detail or give equal weight to every possibility. In this case, certain points can only be related to the crime:

- the broken window
- Meredith's body and the disturbance in the room
- the bloody hand print
- the bloody shoe prints
- Meredith's blood in the small bathroom
- Guede's DNA in the dirty toilet and the murder room, identified before he became a suspect.

That's the evidence that shows what really happened, a simple, brutal, straightforward homicide. But the authorities pitched a fable before they had it figured out. Then they tried to prop up their fable with luminol, oddball results from the crime lab, witnesses with no credibility... crap that shows up in any major investigation and is normally filtered out.

That encourages the public to free their imaginations and look for a deeper plot, whether it involves Amanda and Raffaele or an Albanian drug cartel. But this crime only happened one way.
 
If Rudy broke in it is a lie that he had a date, it is that simple.[/QUOTE]

If Rudy was there, as he claimed, as a real guest of Meredith and had been in the toilet when she was attacked, and then tried to assist her his shoeprints in blood would have shown a different pattern of movement around the room than that of the assailant. There would have been two different sets of shoeprint tracks - the assailant's shoeprints and then Rudy's shoeprints. There was only one person's shoeprints.

Rudy's story is that he came rushing out of the toilet when he heard Meredith scream (9:20 pm) and struggled briefly with the assailant as the assailant passed him going for the door. If that were true, there would have been a clear and different trail of Rudy's shoeprints after rushing to Meredith's room to aid her and unavoidably having stepped in blood. An innocent Rudy would have left a bloody shoeprint trail from her side, to her bathroom where he claims to have fetched towels, and back to her side where he would have knelt down to aid her. Such a trail did not exist. (there is no evidence of a cleanup - no cleanup swirls - in spite of the prosecutor's bald and wishful allegation.)

The explanation why there were no shoeprints in blood from Meredith's room to the bathroom is that Rudy, with blood on one shoe, sat on Meredith's bed, removed that shoe (setting the knife down on the bedsheet), and then walked with one shoe on and one shoe off to the bathroom, where he rinsed his pant leg and shoe, and stepped on the bathmat with his wet foot. That is what the actual footprint evidence shows.

A true rescuer would have had both shoes on. He would have left sufficient prints in the hallway and bathroom to show the path of his innocent movement aiding Meredith.

Let me suggest the reader read the following article summarizing some of Ron Handry's comments: http://www.examiner.com/article/forensic-expert-says-a-single-attacker-killed-meredith-kercher-explains-why
 
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It would absolutely astonish me to find out The Machine/Harry Rag was a member of the family. However it would not surprise me at all to find that The Machine/Harry Rag was in contact with and/or sometimes that name was used when someone from the family (or Maresca's office) spewed forth their bilge, as often that moniker has been used for 'compilation' posts and I know that others (Such As a bunny with lawyerly pretensions) have assisted The Machine in generating those lists that got spammed to the seven heavens the past six or so years.
 
Strozzi said:
If Rudy broke in it is a lie that he had a date, it is that simple.

If Rudy was there, as he claimed, as a real guest of Meredith and had been in the toilet when she was attacked, and then tried to assist her his shoeprints in blood would have shown a different pattern of movement around the room than that of the assailant. There would have been two different sets of shoeprint tracks - the assailant's shoeprints and then Rudy's shoeprints. There was only one person's shoeprints.

Rudy's story is that he came rushing out of the toilet when he heard Meredith scream (9:20 pm) and struggled briefly with the assailant as the assailant passed him going for the door. If that were true, there would have been a clear and different trail of Rudy's shoeprints after rushing to Meredith's room to aid her and unavoidably having stepped in blood. An innocent Rudy would have left a bloody shoeprint trail from her side, to her bathroom where he claims to have fetched towels, and back to her side where he would have knelt down to aid her. Such a trail did not exist. (there is no evidence of a cleanup - no cleanup swirls - in spite of the prosecutor's bald and wishful allegation.)

The explanation why there were no shoeprints in blood from Meredith's room to the bathroom is that Rudy, with blood on one shoe, sat on Meredith's bed, removed that shoe (setting the knife down on the bedsheet), and then walked with one shoe on and one shoe off to the bathroom, where he rinsed his pant leg and shoe, and stepped on the bathmat with his wet foot. That is what the actual footprint evidence shows.

A true rescuer would have had both shoes on. He would have left sufficient prints in the hallway and bathroom to show the path of his innocent movement aiding Meredith.

Let me suggest the reader read the following article summarizing some of Ron Handry's comments: http://www.examiner.com/article/for...attacker-killed-meredith-kercher-explains-why
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A true guest would have been directed to the correct bathroom.
 
Grinder said:
You don't seem to fluent in Italian dating protocol. When one makes a date on Halloween for the next night it proper to break-in as the 'trick' and be waiting for your date sitting on the toilet.

Now thinking in your way, there are two obvious ways that the window could have been broken if Rudy had a date with Meredith.

One, someone else could have broken in while Rudy sat on the pot (I get to say he was incorrect about the doorbell because of the i-Pod) or two, he could have thrown the rock after killing her because he feared that she had shared their date arrangement and he felt he would be targeted.

I look at these ideas as low probabilities but possibles.
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Nice work Grinder, I see Amanda is fortunately still missing from the script, but point well made about logical possibilities concerning Rudy and the window.
Of course they are nonsense, but unfortunately Bongiorno was atrocious, that lawyer visually makes the climb look impossible.

For those who haven't read Frank Sfarzo

"As for the “simulated break-in,” Bongiorno projected the picture of the lawyer, of whom she didn’t even remember the name, climbing it. Nencini: “I just see a guy hanging from a window, that doesn’t say anything to me. Don’t you have the video?” "
 
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Kaosium said:
It would absolutely astonish me to find out The Machine/Harry Rag was a member of the family. However it would not surprise me at all to find that The Machine/Harry Rag was in contact with and/or sometimes that name was used when someone from the family (or Maresca's office) spewed forth their bilge, as often that moniker has been used for 'compilation' posts and I know that others (Such As a bunny with lawyerly pretensions) have assisted The Machine in generating those lists that got spammed to the seven heavens the past six or so years.
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And yet the guy is tweeting his bile, nonsense and lies at a fever pitch in these waning days. The individual behind the persona is without question mentally unbalanced and/or deeply personally invested in the outcome.

Someone posted that they presume Harry Rag to be an older person; lots of spare time, plus he makes a reference to the Kinks song that leads off their great record Something Else. What if he simply has an undemanding position like a career desk job at the BBC, and his *father* is of the generation to have been directly affected by UK bands like the Kinks?

Is it too much of a stretch to presume that Bremner reached out, say, to an ex-FBI man like Steve Moore, who contacted a connected IT guy who was in turn able to hack Rag's IP address? Bremner and Moore have both put themselves out there; to the guilters chagrin, these are two pretty credentialed and serious guys. I'm inclined to believe them.
 
Grinder said:
Seriously can you read? Perhaps you can't peruse but only scan. There is his own Skype admission that he had a date and was there when she died. You choose to believe everything that fits your theory but not anything that doesn't. Sounds like a PGP approach.

Now try to understand that Meredith and her friends may well have been totally drunk that night and could easily have completely forgotten hours of activity. It is also possible that Rudy convinced himself that he had made an arrangement.

There is no confirmation for all kinds of things that you claim and then after some period of time reclaim but you never prove. Sorry but one true crime novelist doesn't count just like one newspaper story about a cocaine dealer on Amanda's phone doesn't count
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Huh??? Not sure what that highlighted crap means so I'll ignore that.

Please excuse me Grinder, but I don't consider Rudy's statement as evidence. I think he pulled that story out of his backside while he was sitting on Filomena' toilet.

As for Meredith and her friends being so totally drunk that they totally forgot the previous night's activity, I don't buy that either. Not that they weren't totally drunk, but they forgot everything that happened that night.
 
AmyStrange said:
-


It seemed to me that you took umbrage with my finding it interesting. Besides, even with all the contortions you have to take to believe Rudy's story, I still think his original story may have been true, just not all that probable that it was.

Rudy would have helped his case more if he had at least tried to call 911 (or whatever it is in Italy) and then stayed until the cops or at least the ambulance came, but once he leaves that house and Meredith to die. that's when him and his story begins to really stink to high heaven.

In short, before you even look at the evidence, his story just doesn't sound right and that's being nice,

d

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I never take umbrage Amy. People can call me anything as long as it isn't late for dinner.

You right, Rudy probably would have helped his case if had called 911 for about 5 minutes. But with the Skype story, he still would have been arrested and convicted. One thing for sure, Amanda and Raffaele wouldn't have been in this mess if he did.
 
Grinder said:
I second this request and add that if the FOA or other pro-Amanda people or groups have evidence of harassment in the form of emails, snail mail, phone messages etc. those too should be made public. This on-going bullying should be exposed and the behavior of these zealots made clear to all.

Making references to inside knowledge, secret sources etc. is bs.
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Wow!!! We agree on something. Unsubstantiated rumors look exactly like that, unsubstantiated.
 
js202 said:
And yet the guy is tweeting his bile, nonsense and lies at a fever pitch in these waning days. The individual behind the persona is without question mentally unbalanced and/or deeply personally invested in the outcome.

Someone posted that they presume Harry Rag to be an older person; lots of spare time, plus he makes a reference to the Kinks song that leads off their great record Something Else. What if he simply has an undemanding position like a career desk job at the BBC, and his *father* is of the generation to have been directly affected by UK bands like the Kinks?

Is it too much of a stretch to presume that Bremner reached out, say, to an ex-FBI man like Steve Moore, who contacted a connected IT guy who was in turn able to hack Rag's IP address? Bremner and Moore have both put themselves out there; to the guilters chagrin, these are two pretty credentialed and serious guys. I'm inclined to believe them.
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Let me clarify:

I believe that The Machine is Harry Rag because several years ago The Machine acknowledged that he created that name when he was barred from Candace Dempsey's site. I have good reason to believe The Machine made most of the posts done by Harry Rag up until about two years ago (I've paid little attention to their antics since) but that Harry Rag was also a name put onto the work of others, notably compilations with one or more additional contributors (those interminable lists) which has continued as I noticed in my last post (before today) about a month ago or so.

However it would not surprise me terribly to find out that a member of the Kercher family contributed to posts signed 'Harry Rag' or even posted under that name the last couple years. I just find it doubtful that was the case the entire six year period.
 
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Rudy's Basketball Past - Any Videos?

Has anyone ever located videos of Rudy playing basketball? I'd like to see him in action jumping up and down, charging his opponent with his arms outstretched, leaping up and grabbing the rim and pulling himself up by his arms.

I found the following brief information about Rudy as a basketball player at a sports website at http://basketball.eurobasket.com/team/Italy/Liomatic_Perugia/2060?Page=4

  • Rudy Hermann Guede,
  • 180 cm, 5'11",
  • born 1980,
  • Guard.
  • Nationality Ivorian-Italian.
  • It says he was previously with Liomatic-Perugia, and more recently with Adriatica (Italy) in 2008-2009 which is wrong as he was in prison beginning Nov 2007.

A diffferent article (below) said Rudy played basketball for a Perugia team in 2004-2005. (Yet another reference said Rudy played The for the ‘UISP Pallacanestro Perugia’ basketball team in Italy’s C1 third division until the 2004-05 season.)

The Guardian had an article on Nov 19 2007 which says:

"Five years ago he was knifed during a fight over drugs, the newspaper wrote. It said Guede relocated to Milan, but had returned to Perugia a few days before Kercher's death.

A local barman confirmed seeing Guede walking in Perugia on October 31, the night before her death. Police have been showing a photograph of Guede around Perugia bars in recent days.

Pasquale Alessi, the co-owner of the city's Merlin pub, said Guede was a frequent visitor to the Domus nightclub in Perugia, where Kercher danced the night before she was killed.

Press reports described Guede as a keen basketball player. Perugia basketball team lists a Rudy Hermann Guede as having played guard for the team from 2004 to 2005.
A Rudy Hermann Guede is also listed on the social networking website Facebook with the same date of birth as that indicated on his photo identity card, which was published by Italian newspapers. On the website entry, Guede shows photographs of himself in bars in Perugia and lists his interests as "arts, computers, basketball and girls".

Corriere della Sera reported that Guede regularly played basketball at the open air court in Piazza Grimana, metres from the cottage that Kercher shared with Knox and two Italian women, and on the route that Kercher used to reach home the night of her death.

You may see the full Guardian article at http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/nov/19/italy.internationalcrime
 
Strozzi said:
Has anyone ever located videos of Rudy playing basketball? I'd like to see him in action jumping up and down, charging his opponent with his arms outstretched, leaping up and grabbing the rim and pulling himself up by his arms.

I found the following brief information about Rudy as a basketball player at a sports website at http://basketball.eurobasket.com/team/Italy/Liomatic_Perugia/2060?Page=4

  • Rudy Hermann Guede,
  • 180 cm, 5'11",
  • born 1980,
  • Guard.
  • Nationality Ivorian-Italian.
  • It says he was previously with Liomatic-Perugia, and more recently with Adriatica (Italy) in 2008-2009 which is wrong as he was in prison beginning Nov 2007.

A diffferent article (below) said Rudy played basketball for a Perugia team in 2004-2005. (Yet another reference said Rudy played The for the ‘UISP Pallacanestro Perugia’ basketball team in Italy’s C1 third division until the 2004-05 season.)

The Guardian had an article on Nov 19 2007 which says:

"Five years ago he was knifed during a fight over drugs, the newspaper wrote. It said Guede relocated to Milan, but had returned to Perugia a few days before Kercher's death.

A local barman confirmed seeing Guede walking in Perugia on October 31, the night before her death. Police have been showing a photograph of Guede around Perugia bars in recent days.

Pasquale Alessi, the co-owner of the city's Merlin pub, said Guede was a frequent visitor to the Domus nightclub in Perugia, where Kercher danced the night before she was killed.

Press reports described Guede as a keen basketball player. Perugia basketball team lists a Rudy Hermann Guede as having played guard for the team from 2004 to 2005.
A Rudy Hermann Guede is also listed on the social networking website Facebook with the same date of birth as that indicated on his photo identity card, which was published by Italian newspapers. On the website entry, Guede shows photographs of himself in bars in Perugia and lists his interests as "arts, computers, basketball and girls".

Corriere della Sera reported that Guede regularly played basketball at the open air court in Piazza Grimana, metres from the cottage that Kercher shared with Knox and two Italian women, and on the route that Kercher used to reach home the night of her death.

You may see the full Guardian article at http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/nov/19/italy.internationalcrime
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I'm amazed too that we haven't seen any videos of Rudy playing basketball. After all there have been for a considerable amount of time of just about every high school basketball game played in the US. There must be video of one of the semi-professional games that Rudy played.

Surely there is footage of Rudy playing ball somewhere
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
Have you looked at the video shot in the downstairs apt.? The pattern of bloodstains fits an injured pet more than it does a person who was dripping with blood. I can't see a scenario where Guede (or anyone) would go down there and drip blood on a mattress, on the sofa, and on the bathroom floor, but not do anything else or leave any other sign of his presence. It may be an interesting theory, but there is no solid, reliable evidence that anything like that happened.

I have learned two important general truths in following crime stories:

1. A lot of what is reported in the media turns out to be distorted or outright false.

2. Police investigations routinely turn up unexplained details or coincidences that seem unusual, but turn out not to be connected to the crime.

The method of thinking that has served me well is to focus on the most relevant evidence and ask myself what really happened. I don't try to account for every detail or give equal weight to every possibility. In this case, certain points can only be related to the crime:

- the broken window
- Meredith's body and the disturbance in the room
- the bloody hand print
- the bloody shoe prints
- Meredith's blood in the small bathroom
- Guede's DNA in the dirty toilet and the murder room, identified before he became a suspect.

That's the evidence that shows what really happened, a simple, brutal, straightforward homicide. But the authorities pitched a fable before they had it figured out. Then they tried to prop up their fable with luminol, oddball results from the crime lab, witnesses with no credibility... crap that shows up in any major investigation and is normally filtered out.

That encourages the public to free their imaginations and look for a deeper plot, whether it involves Amanda and Raffaele or an Albanian drug cartel. But this crime only happened one way.
Click to expand...

While I agree in general with your take on the points of the case and that other points may or may not be related and thus are not important.... This case is rather foolishly being misrepresented by fact-less supposition that there are multiple assailants when there appears to be zero facts to back that claim up. None the less we have judicial morons... way up the power ladder certifying that multiple attackers are responsible...and I am still waiting for one shred of proof.

So, if there are wet flip flops, blood, plus missing egrams and or tests from downstairs plus I don't have the whole factual case about this injured cat...Was the cat bleeding? Was that documented? Seems quite important but also easy to do relatively speaking. Did the cat tear up the bed too? Make the light switch bloody with his little paw when he turned off the light at night? I have unanswered questions about what could be highly related evidence that appears UN-investigated and unexplained at least realistically. If there are missing data and DNA tests then I have enough circumstantial evidence to indicate possible other assailants or corruption. Is there human blood? Who is this blood from? Unknown? Where are the missing tests? Lost in that same garage with the control data sheets?

Sure we all know that the logical and factual case points to Guede alone robbing, raping, and murdering Miss Kercher. We can easily craft a time line that fits facts perfectly and matches every point of physical evidence and yet...6 years later this sham of a case still has life in it.

Meanwhile the prosecution and even the PGP will not because they can not present a time line showing guilt of RS and AK that fits facts and proves guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And yet the case is being debated in a supposed legitimate judicial system. WTF am I missing here? I feel that it is necessary for the prosecutor to show exactly how the crime proceeded and how he proves that with the facts he presents...so far there seems to be a real disconnect in this prosecutors burden. Huge gaping holes made even deeper with suspicious DNA data, burned computers, missing interrogation tapes, denial of legally guaranteed rights, corrupt attempts with sub-related cases to silence protesters or even jail defenders. This is not a confusing case...rather it is quite clear what has to be going on here.

A few years ago we did a test in this thread IIRC and the task took the PG side and attempted to create a time line for the prosecution and the PGP. I seem to recall that Kaosium did the best job but even that attempt was more baffle than brilliance.

The lawyers are failing miserably. The staged break-in was not disproved with a simple video taped climb and entry. The multiple attacker evidence was not picked apart when that was such a simple task...thousands of murders have tons more wounds or lack of wounds if that is the point they try to infer...yet the court hears nothing...including the SC.

A miserable 6 year long failure to attack the most ridiculous case on earth. Maybe you cant fix stupid...I see no reason to pander to it though.
 
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andreajo said:
A true guest would have been directed to the correct bathroom.
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If I allowed an acquaintance to use the bathroom, and I were going to my bedroom, I would direct the acquaintance to the bathroom furthest from my bedroom.
 
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