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Theists: Please give me a reason to believe in your superpowered invisible overlord

In which case, my provisional working concept of deity might not be supernatural. <shrug>

Stone

I like SezMe's suggestion that I try to find a place where I can place my whole series for viewing as a single unit and just link to that in the OP of a separate thread. If I find a place where I can deposit the whole series, that option would be very attractive.

In the meantime, I'm proceeding with Plan A, unless/until I find a place for the whooooooooooooooole thing.

Enclosed is the third installment.

Cheers,

Stone

=======================

[enclosure]

Chief Milestones in Social Reform

My own take is that there is some degree of evidence for any number of things that may be unlikely. But the question in each case is, Is it strong evidence or poor evidence? Not all evidence is automatically strong. At the same time, even if evidence is poor, it can still be counted as evidence. Just evidence for ... what? If certain evidence is duly weighed by peers and found to be lacking in buttressing one particular argument -- argument A -- that only means that that evidence is poor in sufficiently buttressing argument A. It is still useful in buttressing argument B, particularly if argument B convincingly disposes of argument A. It is simply that it is evidence that has been misinterpreted to mean one thing when it more likely meant another. So it is poor evidence in what it may be used to argue for. But it is still evidence, since it is evidence for something else that is being overlooked. That's why it still constitutes evidence. If it's not strong evidence for one thing, it makes sense to determine what it is indeed strong evidence for. One simply interprets it differently than at first. After all, evidence, whether poor or strong, doesn't simply go away -- unless you're George Orwell or Josef Stalin or David Irving, of course. Does it make sense to just dismiss evidence out of hand without proper scrutiny? Of course not. It is still useful evidence down the road for arguing B, even if trying to argue A with it has not panned out.

Now, I'd guess that moral/ethical codes are an inevitable development for any intelligent species that's also dependent on socialization of any kind, the way humanity clearly is. That guess alone got me interested in turn in all countercultural manifestations throughout the ages of socially frowned on expressions of solidarity with the helpless and the left out, as well as non-violence, as a way forward when a society reaches an impasse. Here's a rough rundown of the chief milestones in humanity's attempts at improving stability and community:

1. Mesalim of 3rd-millennium-B.C.E. Sumeria hearkens to the centrality of peace as the spine to all social values (and he institutes the worship of a deity, Ningirsu, who's conceived as a powerful god who safeguards all peace treaties);

2. Urukagina, the Sumerian reformer, presides over the establishment of protections for the treatment of the socially downscale and the introduction of the concept "freedom" ["amagi", the first known introduction of this term] (and he reconceives Ningirsu as the safeguard of "the widow and the orphan" [the first known use of this turn of phrase], thus instituting a new form of worship);

3. In Exodus, God's exchange with Moses introduces the notion that those who are afflicted and oppressed deserve the most respect and consideration of all (and Exodus signals the worship of a new god, Yahweh, who has "surely seen the affliction of my people .. and have heard their cry .. And I am come down to deliver them" --- in contrast to most other gods of that period who safeguard the mighty instead);

4. The I Ching introduces the fundamental concept of Yin and Yang ([the writer is thought by some to be a certain Wen Wang] --- this text also introduces something called "Tian" [loose translation: "Heaven"] as a metaphysical bulwark of all that is);

5. Hesiod, nicknamed "hearth-founder" for the first conscientiously designed Constitution in the Western tradition, institutes the groundbreaking Constitution of Orchomenus (and he also introduces into literature the classic picture of the cosmos as conceived in ancient Greek tradition, with its pantheon of gods like Zeus, Hera, Aphrodite, and so on, as spelled out in his Theogony);

6. The writer of the Tao-te-king, called Lao-Tzu, establishes conventional wisdom as automatically suspect and the powerful's use of the jackboot (so to speak) as intrinsically antithetical to all nature (and this text also introduces a new form of worship, Taoism, which worships the Dao as [paraphrase] "the mystical source and ideal of all existence: it is unseen, but not transcendent, immensely powerful yet supremely humble, being the root of all things")

7. Buddha/Siddhartha, the originator of the sermons in the Digha-Nikaya, the earliest Buddhist text, introduces the utter repudiation of any and all violence whatsoever and a rejection of a caste system and of any system that imposes any types of discriminatory levels on the human family at all (and these sermons also re-conceive a new Brahma, a deity now "free of anger, pure of mind, free of malice, without wealth and free of worldly cares", capable of union with and inspiration of a sequence of "messengers" who "regard all with mind set free, and deep-felt pity, ... sympathy, ... equanimity");

8. Confucius/Kong-fut-ze introduces the primacy of reining in the arrogance and violence of those in power, at a time when civil violence threatens to destroy all of China for good, advocating a new-minted reciprocal and considerate reform in political life instead, thus shaping the extraordinarily peaceful and stable culture of the Han dynasty (and he also introduced the concept that all moral strength comes ultimately from "Tian", a new wrinkle on the "Tian" of the I Ching);

9. Socrates introduces ethics itself as the most important element in humanity's existence, together with a claimed capacity for anyone, from freeman to slave, to grasp it and master it better through continually sharpening self-knowledge (and he also introduces his conviction that he can sometimes hear God's own voice, when being dissuaded from a course of action that would not be right);

10. Christ/Jesus, as described in Josephus, Tacitus, the Mishnah, the 7 authentic Paulines and the Synoptic Gospels, introduces service to all and living purely for others, even loving one's enemies, in expectation of the last being first and the first last (and these texts also revive a Yahweh concept that is oriented toward the poor and the vulnerable);

11. John Locke introduces the primacy of personal validation using the senses and repeated experiment as the way to knowing, thus introducing Empiricism as the foundational outlook of modern man, alongside the importance of life and liberty as paramount to a just society (and he also, it's sometimes forgotten, is one of the chief expounders of Deism as a way out from organized religion and a new way of understanding God);

12. Baha''u'lla'h introduces a nuts-and-bolts path to total world peace in our modern world, and the first conception, within a combined political/theological context, of our globe as a single village long before other politicians ever take up this idea (and he also re-introduces the modern world to a then-new conception of deity as the inspirer of a sequence of "messengers", thereby introducing a new form of worship, Bahai).

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"Something" always existed and had no beginning unless you believe "something" can come from "nothing" which is an absurdity and violates the "Law of Non-Contradiction". Since something always existed and had no beginning, it is just as likely that that something was a living God as it is likely it was a non-living entity since it just always existed.

But we now have another factor to add to the equation. We now know intelligent life exists. So with this new factor, it is now more likely that it was a living intelligent God that always existed since there is now intelligent life, and it is much more likely that a living intelligent God created intelligent life than it is likely a non-living non-intelligent thing created intelligent life.
 
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"Something" always existed and had no beginning unless you believe "something" can come from "nothing" which is an absurdity and violates the "Law of Non-Contradiction". Since something always existed and had no beginning, it is just as likely that that something was a living God as it is likely it was a non-living entity since it just always existed.

But we now have another factor to add to the equation. We now know intelligent life exists. So with this new factor, it is now more likely that it was a living God that always existed since there is now intelligent life and it is much more likely that a living intelligent God created intelligent life than it is likely a non-living non-intelligent thing created intelligent life.

If time began with the formation of the universe we cannot talk about there being a before the universe and consequently a prior cause.
 
"Something" always existed and had no beginning unless you believe "something" can come from "nothing" which is an absurdity and violates the "Law of Non-Contradiction". Since something always existed and had no beginning, it is just as likely that that something was a living God as it is likely it was a non-living entity since it just always existed.

But we now have another factor to add to the equation. We now know intelligent life exists. So with this new factor, it is now more likely that it was a living intelligent God that always existed since there is now intelligent life, and it is much more likely that a living intelligent God created intelligent life than it is likely a non-living non-intelligent thing created intelligent life.

I am curious as to how you are using the term 'likely' here, as it could be a reference to either probability or incredulity. However, I don't see how any kind of probability measure can be applied to supernatural stuff, since probability refers to naturalistic outcomes. If you mean incredulity, well, that does not get us very far.
 
"Something" always existed and had no beginning unless you believe "something" can come from "nothing" which is an absurdity and violates the "Law of Non-Contradiction".

First of all, it violates the law of conservation, not logic. Second, we don't know if the first law of thermodynamics always applies. Third, no one is suggesting "something from nothing" except theists.

Since something always existed and had no beginning, it is just as likely that that something was a living God as it is likely it was a non-living entity since it just always existed.

Except this: we know the non-living entity exists, but not that a living god exists. Occam, and all.

We now know intelligent life exists. So with this new factor, it is now more likely that it was a living intelligent God that always existed since there is now intelligent life, and it is much more likely that a living intelligent God created intelligent life than it is likely a non-living non-intelligent thing created intelligent life.

Are you saying that God is biological ? Where does he come from, then ? Who's his mommy ? I don't think you want your god to be on the same footing as a planary. Besides, the existence of life doesn't make a living god more likely, because there still isn't any evidence that he exists at all. Finally, it's not a "new factor". We've known intelligence life exists for as long as we've been here.
 
First of all, it violates the law of conservation, not logic. Second, we don't know if the first law of thermodynamics always applies. Third, no one is suggesting "something from nothing" except theists.

If it is possible for a particle and an antiparticle to bubble up spontaneously from "the void" (think Feynman diagrams), why not universes?

IOW, if a particle and an antiparticle form and then annihilate, has not "something come from nothing", and then returned? That would not seem to violate the conservation of energy.

Similarly, if the net forces in the universe calculate back to zero (do they?), there may still be net "nothing" in spite of all the observed commotion.

But I'm just trying to wrap my mind around something I do not have the background to fully grasp.

I do sense a flaw both in Doc's premises, and his "probabilistic" conclusion that it's likely that intelligent life required "a living intelligent God" to get going.

Obvious next question even a child would ask: "Then wouldn't it also be "likely", using that logic, that "a living intelligent God" would require another "living intelligent God" to create it? If so, where does it end?"
 
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"Something" always existed and had no beginning unless you believe "something" can come from "nothing" which is an absurdity and violates the "Law of Non-Contradiction". Since something always existed and had no beginning, it is just as likely that that something was a living God as it is likely it was a non-living entity since it just always existed.

But we now have another factor to add to the equation. We now know intelligent life exists. So with this new factor, it is now more likely that it was a living intelligent God that always existed since there is now intelligent life, and it is much more likely that a living intelligent God created intelligent life than it is likely a non-living non-intelligent thing created intelligent life.

It is more likely that The Flying Spaghetti Monster always existed but in creating this universe, it destroyed itself and that's why there is no evidence of any gods. Your gods creating the universe from nothing violates the law of non-contradiction and the absurdity of something coming from nothing. The Flying Spaghetti Monster avoids those issues since it created the universe from itself.

Checkmate.
 
Nope.

But perhaps "potential" is simply woven into the fabric of existence, and that "nothing" is a meaningless concept.

I think so. I think the fact that anything exists at all shows that it can't not exist. This makes the "something from nothing" argument moot, and the concept of god useless.
 
I'm not finding anything persuasive in any of the theistic arguments put forward so far. With the thread question and OP in mind, I'll modify a request I made at the top of post #164 to appeal to any theistic reader:

Objective evidence supporting belief in the existence of this/these invisible being/s called gods is clearly off the table. What then leads any theist to that belief? Does it just sound like a good idea? What specifically gives a foundation to theistic faith?
 
Really ? I can answer it: None. I've never seen a compelling pro-supernatural argument. The most interesting ones still stem from a misunderstanding of the physics and logic involved, but all of them fail in the evidence department. The most "compelling" argument for god is one I made up, and never heard from a theist.

Cosigned.
 
I'm not finding anything persuasive in any of the theistic arguments put forward so far. With the thread question and OP in mind, I'll modify a request I made at the top of post #164 to appeal to any theistic reader:

Objective evidence supporting belief in the existence of this/these invisible being/s called gods is clearly off the table. What then leads any theist to that belief? Does it just sound like a good idea? What specifically gives a foundation to theistic faith?

I was thinking back to when I used to be a Christian, and it was my own experiences of the 'transcendent', which kept me in the faith. However, later, I could see that I had made a leap from 'transcendent' to 'Christian', which doesn't really work.

Or you could argue that Christian symbolism maps out a relationship between ego and transcendence; however, the trouble with that, is that so does the symbolism in many other religions, including for example, some shamans. This destroys one of the basic Christian claims - exclusivity.

I am happier now with a kind of modified Buddhist view of these things. But then also, it can all be explained in terms of the unconscious, I suppose, which seems to me, as a concept, secularized all these ideas. I mean, the unconscious is the higher power, which kind of controls us.

Of course, if you are a philosophical idealist, I suppose you can argue that reality itself is created by such a force, and again, I see some Buddhists as being close to this. 'I do my being', is a rough summary of it, where the I is not ego-I, but superordinate Self-I. Oh hell, it's pure Nietzsche, isn't it?
 
What specifically gives a foundation to theistic faith?

Might I suggest evolution has led us to be hard-wired to be both psychologically pliable at a young age, and to "imprint" on parental figures?

I think that all too easily leads to granting "agency" to father figures (in a patriarchal society) and mother figures (in a matriarchal one).

When I reflect on what Christians say, the concept of God as "father" comes up repeatedly. One need only look at the first two words of the Lord's Prayer, and the myth of a "father" sending a "son" to earth.

Anyway, that's my guess as to the foundation.
 
I listened to a debate once about God/No God where one of the concluding questions was something like, "What argument from the other side do you find most compelling?"

The "No God" side just floundered about, never really answering it.

I remain an atheist, but I must admit that when recently taking an online astronomy course, I was again reminded of how "remarkable" it is that math can so precisely explain the way the universe works. The way certain constants, like pi and the speed of light, keep recurring to make the equations fit "just so". Maybe it's my lack of understanding of the math involved, but I still end up in awe about the way equations fit reality - or vice versa!

Not saying it's an argument for God or a law giver, but it is one of the few things that makes me pause and go hmmmmm.

Hmmm, so fine tuned is our universe that the vast majority of it is completely inimical to life... If it is a design then it's about as inefficient as it's possible to be.
 
I think another 'foundation to faith' is about aesthetics. I take this in two ways. First, some religions provide an ornate symbolism and ritual; for example, a full-on Catholic Mass is a theatrical experience, with music, visual imagery, incantations, and so on. This appeals to some people, and not to others.

However, there is another sense of 'aesthetic', that some people are attracted to various ideas in theism, e.g. the sense of a beyond, of a directing intelligence, of being helped, and so on. Again, some people find this attractive, and some don't. I'm not really sure as to why this is, but I tend to focus on the idea of the ego, which seems to often feel frail and alienated, and therefore craves a home, or believes it has a source, and so on. These ideas then often get historicized, as in Christianity, and are not taken as symbols.
 

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