Originally Posted by
Dancing David
here ya go!
Got it.
No offense taken DD.
Originally Posted by
Tinyal
I will answer the other questions you brought up in this post shortly, in another reply I am composing, but wanted to answer this one about Chapter 4 'We Agnostics' first, as that particular chapter is one of the worst in the entire book - it's full of misleading information, false & poor analogies, logical falacies, and outright lies.
Originally Posted by
Tinyal
Originally Posted by
Tinyal
<sigh> I expect nothing less than baseless personal attacks from theists, whether in or out of AA. That's all you've got, as regardless of whether or not you agree with Orange's conclusions, those links lead to many other researchers & studies and all those agree with Orange. You haven't a clue who Dr. George Valiant is, do you?
Of course not.
I'll even give you the courtesy of answering your (dumb) question,which is more than I got from you: Yes, I read every word of the links I post, and much I can quote from multiple readings.
You seem to give an awful lot weight to the opinions of a handful of people (i.e. Bill, Bob and Orange). Each are simply individuals with their own opinions and experience. None of them is or has the last word. Why you keep rolling out the Bill and Orange as proof of anything is beyond me to be honest - it is tedious and pointless.
The first two lines of the Organge paper website confirms same:
Quote:
THE ORANGE PAPERS
One Man's Analysis of Alcoholics Anonymous....
This nutter has the final word? Please!
Perhaps he is in denial and is justifying his disease? If nothing else he's probably obsessive compulsive, filled with resentment, hate and revenge. Poor fellow, I feel sorry for him that his life has to be about bringing others down rather than helping (himself and) other up.
You need to prove to us AA is religious, not by using one man's opinions but by showing what religion, what god, what tenets etc are required.
And I repeat:
- Tradition Three:
The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking
-
The 12 steps are "suggested".
- Where does AA say it has the first and last word on recovery?
And btw, to you and others - I am still waiting on some stats for other forms of recovery that can add to our 5% "just stopped" and AAs 9%.
Originally Posted by
Tinyal
Another interesting tidbit - out of the ordinal 100 members of AA, did you know that just about 50 (1/2) of them died either drunk (not able to stay sober for more than a few years) or from alcoholism related causes? That was the first, last, and only time AA had a 50% or better success rate, it went downhill fast from that original group.
Good point.
It actually shows us a number of things, but also raises some questions you might like to answer:
- The disease is cunning baffling and powerful.
- For far too many, it is "stop drinking or die". Most alcoholics can't do that alone, (that is the true strength of AA in my opinion).
Alone we have to do it, but we don't have to do it alone.
- How many of these members who 'failed' followed the program from go to woe?
- Many of them were 'gutter drunks', out of hospital etc. i.e. Bill and Bob '12 stepped them from a very low rock bottom. Most AA walk ins these days have far higher rock bottoms, they are in a contemplative stage rather than (say) in a decision and/or action stage. They still have research to do.
There are more, but that will do for now.