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Old 22nd November 2020, 09:39 PM   #55
Pacal
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Toronto
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I can list a whole series of ideas that many label has false. Should they be suppressed?
Not necessarily... post your list!
Racism
Marxism
Socialism
Fascism
Atheism
Anarchism
Christianity
Islam
Scientology
Maoism
Stalinist Denialism
Armenian Denialism
Feminism

The list goes on and on.

And many believe that those ideas do real harm and are evil and point to alleged real world "negative" effects.

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Should Creationism be criminalized?
Nope!
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It is after all easy to demonstrate that it is utterly false.
Is it? Lets see you demonstrate it then; it will be something new - no-one, in the whole history of the human race has ever been able to prove it false

Keep in mind also that you are not comparing like things. The Holocaust has been PROVEN CONCLUSIVELY to have happened, whereas Creationism has not been PROVEN FALSE (Google "proving a negative").[/quote]

Well if we are going to get into philosophical games here. I know damn well you can't in a philosophical sense absolutely prove a negative but for all practical purposes it is done all the time and in that sense Creationism has been proven false. And besides a Holocaust Denier in his or her usual bottom dwelling way will simply respond to this little bit of semantic philosophical game work with - prove that the Holocaust is not a hoax. And of course one can always argue that philosophically nothing can be proven conclusively, beyond all doubt. These sorts of arguments are like jam to Holocaust Deniers.


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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
Many people propagate ideas about history that are false, should that be criminalized?
Not necessarily; again, post your list
Mentioned above:

Armenian Genocide Denial. (In Turkey today claiming what happened to the Armenians was genocide is a crime punished by the state.)
Stalinist Denialism (So-called Tankies)

Others

The stab in the Back legend, (lie), in Germany After World War I
That the United States was a largely empty wilderness when Europeans began settling it.
That British Policy caused famines in India.
That the American Civil War was not largely about slavery.
Catholics were never oppressed in Ireland.

I could go on.

All of those beliefs have had in in many respects still have adverse effects on large numbers of people and in many respects are deeply insulting and malicious. Should they be criminalized because of that?

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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
Well is the government going to decide what is true?
The Government doesn't do that with Holocaust Denial, science does that. Holocaust Denial does real harm to people, those who survived are made to relive it again; the descendants of both survivors and victims have their parents and grandparents called liars for saying telling about the suffering they endured. My uncle was a soldier among the those who were first to liberate the camps; and it affected him mentally for the rest of his life. To his dying day, he railed against deniers for questioning what he knows he saw with his own eyes.
If the government decides that a particular idea is false and stating it is punishable it is deciding what is true. Where the Physicists and others who denied Einstein's Theory of Relativity charged in court for denying the truth. For the rest see below.

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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
I can also give a long list of ideas that have led to people believing them to commit crimes. Again should such ideas be criminalized?
No necessarily; again, post your list.
Lassiz-faire Capitalism
Marxism
Socialism
Fascism
Liberalism
Conservatism
Anarchism
Maoism
Stalinism
Fascism
Religion
Racism (Should Charles Murray be prosecuted for The Bell Curve?)

I could go on.

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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
I have absolutely no faith in government criminalizing ideas, even stupid, evil ones. I see little in the history of the world that gives me any faith in it. It, when it is "effective", almost always goes into repression. It is interesting that countries that have have outlawed Holocaust denial have been extremely ineffective in enforcing it. The number of prosecutions remains small and prosecutors are generally fairly reluctant to go ahead.
Many countries have managed to make Holocaust Denial a criminal act, some for 30+ years - I've yet to see a down side.
Has I said in my post one of the reasons for that is because prosecutions are very rare. Further I have always found it very easy to find and get Holocaust Denial crap. And from people I know who have lived in Germany such material is very easy to get there. So the laws have been ineffective too boot, along with rare enforcement. I have little doubt that rigorous enforcement would lead to places we don't want to go.

Also Prosecutors realize that prosecuting such people tends to make martyrs of them. Not exactly what you want to do.

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By the way people are free to say arsenic is harmless without fear of going to jail.
Not if they try to sell it and claim its harmless they don't - and Holocaust Deniers are SELLING the the bile they spread.
First they are selling ideas not a 'potion" and in many cases not even selling it, just giving it away. For example is a Holocaust Denier posting on a message board "selling" anything? Secondly many of the ideas I have mentioned have been sold and have had baneful effects.

Liking an idea to a poison is of course exactly what both Stalinists, Maoists etc., have said to justify the suppression of ideas. After all we can't have ideas that cause harm and are "obviously" false floating about. And of course the all wise state will determine that.

Holocaust Deniers utterly disgust me but my personal belief is freedom of speech for me means freedom of speech for speech I utterly despise.
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