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Old 31st December 2019, 01:22 AM   #3
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I can accept the notion of a god, however you define it, as being involved in creation. I don't entirely discount the possibility what's more, although I think it most unlikely.

The notion of a caring god, who takes great interest in our activities, I find much harder to accept.
If you can accept a God, why not a caring God?

Accepting the notion of a God at all is by far the biggest hurdle. The rest is easy. This God will of course have human characteristics, including a desire to take an interest in and 'care' about other beings, just like we do. If it didn't then how could it be differentiated from an uncaring universe?

This not only because the god seemingly prefers not to intervene in our favour, and keeps itself invisible, but because the purpose behind our creation eludes me.
The reason God doesn't intervene in our favor is blindingly obvious, but if we are to accept the notion of a God then we have to discount the obvious. Once we do there are plenty of reasons that make sense.

To start off with, how you define 'favor'? If there is a Heaven waiting for us then wouldn't the best 'favor' a caring God could do for us is hasten our arrival there? Yet many people might find that idea a bit disturbing.

And what to do when one person's wishes impinge upon another's? Better to intervene as little as possible so people have the freedom to make their own way in the world, rather than relying on supernatural handouts.

As for the purpose of it all, just because it eludes you doesn't mean there isn't one. I bet there are a million things you don't know the purpose of, yet you don't deny that they exist.

When we progress to the notion of a god who creates perfect beings, (angels and us), who then turn out to be not perfect, (which is somehow there own fault), then you've lost me altogether.
The Bible says that man was created 'in the image of God'. But just like a photocopy is a not a perfect duplicate of the original, we a not a perfect image of God. In fact the idea that we would be is silly.

As for the angels, if they are lesser than God then they cannot be as wise, and therefore may be be subject to errors of judgement just like us. And again, nowhere in the Bible does it say that the angels were created perfect.

But how does that square with the notion of a perfect god? Surely if God is perfect then He cannot create anything but perfection? But who gets to define perfection? Certainly not us. One thing is for sure though. If the Bible is correct then God created angels with independent minds, and since those minds are lesser than God's they must be less capable of avoiding error. This is simple logic, and to think otherwise would be silly.

So then we go still further, to notions of a place of eternal torment, where hapless souls suffer for eternity, just because they don't believe in the the secretive god.
According to the Christian Bible unrepentant sinners are sent to Hell to be destroyed, so it is a place of (almost) eternal torment. But the torment is of their own making, as they contemplate their crimes while being forever separated from God. It is this separation and knowledge of their unavoidable destruction that torments them.

This concept should not be foreign to you - after all we do it to people on Death Row. We don't torment them either, but they are still tormented.

I mean it just gets sillier and sillier.
Does it? Or is it all just the logical extension of accepting the notion of a God in the first place?

A non-caring God without a consciousness like ours might as well be a rock (or whatever scientists think was the origin of the 'Big Bang'). If it created everything 'perfect' then we would not exist as independent minds free to make our own decisions (and mistakes). A caring God would not torment us by letting those who sinned against us go unpunished. This is all perfectly logical once you accept the notion of a God.

Different religions have different ideas, some of which are a bit wacky. But the concepts that have evolved in major religions mostly have good reasons for being there. Take the 'God' bits out of the Bible for example, and it is full of practical advice, cautionary tales and sensible laws that have served our civilization for centuries - as well as being a good read for historical fantasy buffs.
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

Last edited by Roger Ramjets; 31st December 2019 at 01:40 AM.
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