Jim Fetzer & Conspiracies

So the FBI knowingly placed the engine in an impossible location? Did they do this just to taunt the Truthers, or were they too stupid to realize it was impossible? Is the Conspiracy all-powerful but utterly stupid? Or could it be that you are wrong? :rolleyes:

These guys are not rocket scientists. They were following the script. It would take someone very familiar with engines to detect the mistake, but they wanted it to use as proof for the gullible that a Boeing 767 had hit the South Tower. And I guess, to judge by this thread, they succeeded.

But the video footage shows that it was traveling at an impossible speed for a Boeing 767 at that altitude and that it makes an impossible entry into the building, where it passes its complete length into the building in the same number of frames it passes through its complete length in air.

We have done frame-by-frame advances and confirmed that there is no loss in velocity, when the plane should have crumpled against the facade of the building, with its wings and tail breaking off and bodies, seats and luggage falling to the ground. But none of that happened. It was faked.

After all, what does a planted engine at Church & Murray tell us? And more recently a landing gear was found wedged between two buildings. Guess what? It was still attached to the rope that had been used to lower it. I think we have to accept that those involved in this deception made mistakes.
 
These guys are not rocket scientists.

Speaking of not rocket scientists.

I noticed you refuse to address any of the questions I presented.

1) How exactly were Newtons law violated on 9/11?

2) What is your proof that the engine on Church street had the wrong HPT duct?

These are just two. If you don't understand the questions, just ask.

Don't just link, use your words.
 
I know...

Continuous, unrelenting personal attacks noted and reported.

Let me observe that we have a planted engine, which is not even from a 767.

Based on your inexperienced attempt at identifying jet engines, which lacks foundation.

It shows none of the signs that it would show had it just impacted with the hard surface of a sidewalk...

Based on your uninformed expectations for how impact damage should appear, for which you provide no foundation.

no shiny metal parts that are fresh and recent...

Further expectations leveled without foundation.

...only a lot of dust from an old engine.

A suppositional conclusion drawn from no demonstrable body of fact and no expert foundation.

Since it was planted, someone has to have planted it.-

Cart before the horse. You have not proven the engine was planted. You have noted what, from your lack of foundation, appear to be inconsistencies in the evidence. You have lept to the conclusion that the explanation for those inconsistencies is that the evidence was planted. You explicitly avoid considering or testing any other conclusion, or even your own conclusion.

In fact, your conclusion that the engine was "planted" is supposition based entirely on your uninformed opinion for what you think you should be seeing instead. It's as begged a question as a question can get.

From the supposition that the parts were planted, you infer the existence of operatives to do so, and you display obvious confirmation bias in asserting that the people you say the video shows unloading "heavy equipment" must be those planting evidence.

You assert this as the only rational conclusion, and you completely ignore all the reasons given for why it isn't rational.

JayUtah claims that the discovery of FOX NEWS footage showing men in FBI vests unloading something heavy at that intersection is irrelevant...

No, that is not my argument.

You are the one affirmatively claiming not only that the found footage is relevant, but that the identification of the incident as the planting of evidence is a foregone conclusion. You are the one making affirmative claims while flatly denying any obligation to prove that your analysis is the correct one.

I'm simply disputing your fervent desire to railroad your conclusions through without any sort of critical observation or consideration.

But unless he is suggesting it planted itself...

Straw man: I am suggesting no such thing. You beg the question that the engine parts were necessarily planted, hence you propose to limit all my rebuttals to those that can explain that proposition.

I reject the proposition that the engine parts were necessarily planted. Hence I am under no obligation, under the notion of subverted support, to explain "how they got there," or to otherwise explain away the purported actions of FBI agents.

Elaborations in attempting to shift the burden of proof do not make it any more acceptable.

...his position, like so much else he posts, is indefensible.

Straw men are usually indefensible because they are constructed by the interlocutor precisely to be so.

My position is simply the null hypothesis. Until proven otherwise, the engines found near the vicinity of a crash site are most likely those from the crashed airplane. Until proven otherwise, the activities of a group of people nearby at an earlier time are most likely unrelated.

For all your bluster in telling everyone within the sound of your voice how irrational, indefensible, and "typical" my arguments are, you manage to avoid addressing a single point in any of them. And you have now completely abandoned your discussion of your Apollo claims. Unlike you, my credibility doesn't seem to rely on having to tell readers how they should interpret the course of the argument. I presume they can see for themselves which of us is the most evasive.

They even left the dolly behind!

How do you imagine this observation proves any part of your fairy tale?
 
Looking into my archives, I see I explained to the good doctor why his idea about the frame rate on the Zapruder camera was just plain flat out wrong on JFK Research back in 1998.
And he (and Jack) didn't comprehend it.
And now I see he is just plain flat out wrong on the mechanics of crashing.
Doesn't comprehend that either.
 
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Mr. Fetzer: you present one unsupported assertion that someone saw someone moving something.

I present the collection of impact video clips:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DoE8Uz2ia3M

Twenty different videos shot from 20 different cameras, angles and distances agree that a massive spinning object left the WTC after impact/explosion at a time consistent with travel time within the building from point of impact. Twenty differnt angles can be extrapolated to arrive at Church and Murray.

But you have one guy who claims to have seen a thingie of some kind or other.

And then we have the other piece of large ejecta that can be seen in those clips. Did your FBI NWO garden gnomes also plant the 100 square foot piece of fuselage on a rooftop? In broad daylight?
 
These guys are not rocket scientists. They were following the script.

Oh, right, the Really Stupid Conspirator theory. They were going to perpetrate the crime of the century, and they made elementary mistakes. "Gee, guys, shouldn't we take off our FBI jackets before we plant the evidence?" "Naw, it'll look great on Fox News."

It would take someone very familiar with engines to detect the mistake...

And apparently you're just that expert, despite your unwillingness to lay a foundation for it?

Conversely, can you explain why the conspirators wouldn't presume that the crash site would be picked over by people "very familiar with [aircraft] engines" and thereby provide an engine of the proper type?

No, you're just piling more supposition on top of what is already blatant conjecture. You have no evidence that there were any conspirators, let alone that they were as stupid as they need to have been in order to play a part in your theory. You have no evidence of a motive simply to "fool only the gullible" rather than to stage a credible accident. You're simply noting what would need to be true in order to make your fairy tale stand, and assuming it must have been true.

What an enormous ball of circular reasoning you've created.
 
Significantly, as I previously observed, Jack White discovered FOX NEWS footage showing agents wearing FBI vests unloading something heavy from a white van. In fact, they even left behind THE DOLLY that was used to unload it.

A photo with these elements in a collage can be found on many of my articles about this, including "Planes/No Planes and 'Video Fakery'".
This is the kind of drivel I would expect from JayUtah. We have an obviously planted engine (which I have proven in my latest post). We have footage of a van at that intersection, where agents wearing FBI vest are unloading something heavy.

WHAT ELSE COULD IT POSSIBLY BE? Not only is unloading the engine the only reasonable inference, they even LEAVE THE DOLLY BEHIND. This guy appears to be incapable of serious reasoning, which appears to be surprisingly common on this thread.


If at this point the engine was not already lying at that street corner, I wonder what Dr. Fetzer, critical thinker extraordinaire, thinks the Fox News team was doing there in the first place.

Anyway, here is some early footage of the engine, before any of the towers collapsed. No "dolly" to be seen anywhere and as far as I can tell the van is missing, too:


Here is the Fox News footage with the "FBI van" Fetzer is probably referring to. You can easily tell that it was taken shortly after the collapse of the first tower:


I see no "dolly" anywhere in that video. Fetzer might be talking about the green barrow on the truther picture below (on the right), which was apparently taken long after the collapse (there is dust and the area is cleared of people). It looks way too flimsy to carry such a heavy engine piece and was obviously used to either bring in tools or remove small pieces (a box is still strapped to it). Whoever assembled those pictures and concluded that they show evidence of the engine being planted has the reasoning skills of a not particularly talented chimpanzee (though I don't want to insult chimpanzees here).

[IMGW=600]http://oi52.tinypic.com/2q0ja00.jpg[/IMGW]


Anyway, Fetzer will ignore this and repeat this complete laughable claim and blather on about "evidence". As usual.
 
These guys are not rocket scientists. They were following the script. It would take someone very familiar with engines to detect the mistake, but they wanted it to use as proof for the gullible that a Boeing 767 had hit the South Tower. And I guess, to judge by this thread, they succeeded.
Making fun of the FBI, following a script. Why are all your 911 claims silly fantasy? You talk of a 767 engine, seen on video ejected from the WTC, proved by RADAR to be an aircraft taken by terrorists you apologize for making anti-American lies, blaming the FBI, etc, for 911. I was on active duty on 911, does that make me in on it.

But the video footage shows that it was traveling at an impossible speed for a Boeing 767 at that altitude and that it makes an impossible entry into the building, where it passes its complete length into the building in the same number of frames it passes through its complete length in air.
Where is your source for an impossible speed for a 767? Source for this lie please. Did you make it up, and where is the top speed published. Source this, or it remains a lie.

Where is the impossible speed published. Another lie you support without evidence, and RADAR and video prove you are wrong.
https://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/foia/9_11/Flight_Path_Study_UA175.pdf
When will you debunk RADAR to prove your lies are not lies. Did you know the 767 was designed to 1.2Vd flutter free? OOPS, thus Vd is 420 knots, making 1.2Vd at 580 mph, thus a possible speed a 767 could reach and recover from, ensuring our/your safety if a 767 is upset in flight. Good news for all, your claim of impossible speed is a BIG LIE, based on zero knowledge of aerodynamics and flying.

Flight 11, impacted at Vd, a speed the 767 was flight tested at. OOPS, now what?

Flight 175, impacted at 590 mph, in a dive - and crashed. So?

Flight 77, only over Vmo for 20 seconds, not impossible, it is called reality.

Flight 93, crashed at 40 degrees nose low, almost upside down. Like other planes in a steep dive, high speeds are not impossible.


You have no source, you make up silly claims with no sources.

We have done frame-by-frame advances and confirmed that there is no loss in velocity, when the plane should have crumpled against the facade of the building, with its wings and tail breaking off and bodies, seats and luggage falling to the ground. But none of that happened. It was faked.
Show your work, where is the analysis? In your fantasy. You make up stuff and have no idea the frame rate and resolution is not going to help you spread this lie.
LOL, you don't do physics, and think a 767 is like a cartoon, road runner, or something silly. Your claims break the law of physics. It was ironic, was it you who says a bird can damage a plane, yet aluminum alloys as strong as steel can't damage steel. Good one, have to remember slugs from guns can't hurt me, they will crumple against my body. lol, you really don't do physics, and you make up silly claims based on zero knowledge of physics.

After all, what does a planted engine at Church & Murray tell us? And more recently a landing gear was found wedged between two buildings. Guess what? It was still attached to the rope that had been used to lower it. I think we have to accept that those involved in this deception made mistakes.
Planted engine, is this your big lie?

LOL, another lie about the landing gear.
 
These guys are not rocket scientists. They were following the script. It would take someone very familiar with engines to detect the mistake, but they wanted it to use as proof for the gullible that a Boeing 767 had hit the South Tower. And I guess, to judge by this thread, they succeeded.

But the video footage shows that it was traveling at an impossible speed for a Boeing 767 at that altitude and that it makes an impossible entry into the building, where it passes its complete length into the building in the same number of frames it passes through its complete length in air.

We have done frame-by-frame advances and confirmed that there is no loss in velocity, when the plane should have crumpled against the facade of the building, with its wings and tail breaking off and bodies, seats and luggage falling to the ground. But none of that happened. It was faked.

After all, what does a planted engine at Church & Murray tell us? And more recently a landing gear was found wedged between two buildings. Guess what? It was still attached to the rope that had been used to lower it. I think we have to accept that those involved in this deception made mistakes.

Prof. Fetzer, response above raises a number of questions that I am sure you'll be able to anwer:

a. If FBI agents were following a script and planting evidence to suggest that a Boeing 767 crashed into a WTC Building, why are they not using only 767 parts?
b. Why have none of these people had an atack of conscience and confessed to their role in this matter?
c. How many truckloads of aircraft parts were trucked in to the WTC site for people to find and why haven't any of these people come forward?
d. How does scattering plane parts around hide the fact that people saw the planes that hit the WTC buildings and had filmed it?
e. What speed do you calculate the plane had, and why is that speed impossible?
f. Why is the entry of the plane into the buildng impossible?
g. This "recently found peice of landing gear" with rope attached to it - when was it found, and what buildings was it "wedged" in between.
h. This "deception" you are referring to - who is deceiving who? Who benefits?
 
Anyway, Fetzer will ignore this and repeat this complete laughable claim and blather on about "evidence". As usual.

I suppose I'm way too gullible to see that the dolly is clean and the engine is dusty with no dolly tire marks near it. :rolleyes:
 
... That is confirmed by the records of the International Committee of the Red Cross, which counted 271,301 deaths from all causes across the camps. ...

And here we go again. Thanks for reminding me this early what a complete waste of time this is.
 
...
g. This "recently found peice of landing gear" with rope attached to it - when was it found, and what buildings was it "wedged" in between.
...

fwiw, picture from CBS news here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/9-11-plane-debris-is-part-of-wing-not-landing-gear/


eta:

Police documented the debris with photos. The twisted metal part — jammed in an 18-inch-wide, trash-laden passageway between the buildings — has cables and levers on it and is about 5 feet high, 17 inches wide and 4 feet long.

The piece was found with ropes that aren't believed be part of the plane. Police are trying to determine whether someone had tried to lower the piece off the roof at some point in the past, and the ropes snapped or the piece became stuck. There's no indication that the part was planted in the space, said Paul Browne, chief spokesman for the New York Police Department.
 
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And here we go again. Thanks for reminding me this early what a complete waste of time this is.

The part that is really insulting is the fact he thinks he's presenting evidence.

He's been hanging with the wrong crowd for too long. I'm seeing nothing but low hanging fruit. :jaw-dropp
 
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.

* Thorium and Uranium: These elements only exist in radioactive form. Thorium is a radioactive element formed from Uranium by decay. It’s very rare and should not be present in building rubble, ever. So once again we have verifiable evidence that a nuclear fission event has taken place.

Lolwut?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actinides_in_the_environment#Thorium_in_the_environment

I'll quote:

Thorium is found at low levels in most rocks and soils, where it is about three times more abundant than uranium, and is about as common as lead. Soil commonly contains an average of around 6 parts per million (ppm) of thorium.[2] Thorium occurs in several minerals, the most common being the rare earth-thorium-phosphate mineral, monazite, which contains up to about 12% thorium oxide.

Furthermore, Thorium, Th132, far the most common type of Thorium does occur naturally. Did you just see 'Thorium' on the list and jump to the conclusion that it was one of its more radioactive isotopes?

An examination of the USGS tables shows a mean of 9.3, just 50% above the natural ppm found in soil. This in an urban environment. You somehow find this to be proof of a nuke?!
 
This is ridiculous. FAA Registration Records, which I have in hand, show that the planes used for Flights 93 and 175 were not de-registered (formally taken out of service) until 28 September 2005. So how could planes that crashed on 9/11 have still be in the air four years later?

Since I link to the studies by Pilots in articles I have cited, this is yet more indication of the slovenly state of research here, especially as it has been displayed by beachnut, the least competent of all participating in this thread: http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/09/12/911-truth-will-out-the-vancouver-hearings-ii/

The best study about how it was done (faking the crashes into the North and the South Towers) is by Richard Hall in his "9/11 Flight 175 Radar Data 3-D Analysis", which can be found at http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=49497 He offers something that is far closer to the truth.
All your claims are not based on slovenly reserach, it is cut and paste google junk, and pure fantasy. You skip the research and let google to your claims for you.

You google up a nut, Richard Hall who can't comprehend RADAR, and you use his fake analysis as your source to support your no plane lies.

OOPS, debunked by RADAR again.
https://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/foia/9_11/Flight_Path_Study_UA175.pdf
Plus you can get the raw data to find out your claims are bogus. Can you do math and use the raw data to find out your claim is a lie? Can you do science, or only woo of no planes.

All you have left are weak insults, as your evidence is hearsay. Did you know hearsay is not evidence?

Your FAA Gish Gallop is silly. You have paper work which proves you are gullible and can't comprehend Flights 11, 175, 77 and 93 did crash on 911. Did you tell the families of the victims your lies about them? 13 years and you spread lies of no planes, debunked by DNA, video, RADAR, and real evidence.

It is a fantasy to think the FAA paperwork proves crashed planes are still flying after 911. Why do you make up lies like this. It proves you don't use evidence.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/index.aspx

OOPS, reality based paperwork, shows Flights 11, 175, 77, and 93 all crashed on 911 with all on board, murdered. You got fooled by FAA paperwork which you don't understand. You lack the knowledge to make reality based decision on the junk you google about 911.

So far, all your claims are bogus, nonsense and fantasy. Got some more to your Gish Gallop.
 
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The part that is really insulting is the fact he thinks he's presenting evidence.

He's been hanging with the wrong crowd for too long. I'm seeing nothing but low hanging fruit. :jaw-dropp

It seems to me that both the triumph and the tragedy of his life are that he managed to convince rational people (and himself) for decades that he possesses anything resembling "critical thinking" skills. Those times are long over. The things he is writing here these days, for whatever reason, read like the epilogue of an astonishing public display of self-destruction that has been dragging on for years and years. It would almost be sad if what he's spreading was just stupid, but much of it is also vile and promoting hate against minorities.
 
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It seems to me that both the triumph and the tragedy of his life are that he managed to convince rational people (and himself) for decades that he possesses anything resembling "critical thinking" skills. Those times are long over. The things he is writing here these days, for whatever reason, read like the epilogue of an astonishing public display of self-destruction that has been dragging on for years and years. It would almost be sad if what he's spreading was just stupid, but much of it is also vile and promoting hate against minorities.
I would debate him in public any day. I wouldn't say a word, I'd encourage the audience to listen.;)
 
* Barium and Strontium: Neither of these elements should ever appear in building debris in these quantities. The levels never fall below 400ppm for Barium and they never drop below 700ppm for Strontium and reach over 3000ppm for both in the dust sample taken at Broadway and John Streets.

Explain to me why they shouldn't? Both Barium and Strontium were used in Cathode Ray Tubes (as was yttrium!) - which would be computer monitors of the time. Factor in that every desk in every office on every floor would have had at least one computer monitor and tell me again why I should be surprised?

Pretty much the same for the other minerals on your list. They had industrial and commercial uses. You seem unaware of this.
 
...
Some people have suggested that Jim Fetzer is a "disinformation agent".

So: does Jim Fetzer actually believe in the theories he supports or are there other reasons for his supporting the most wacky of "out there" beliefs?

It's this I want to discuss and hear opinions on: does he actually believe what he says?

It appears Fetzer does believe his fantasy. He has taken hearsay from 911 truth, googled BS, and uses it as evidence. He has no idea what physics is. The planes on 911 were suppose to crumble on the WTC shell, proof there is no science used to check the fantasy claims of 911 truth adopted as gospel by Fetzer.
 
I would LOVE to see the "frame by frame" analysis of the impact that "proves" it is faked.
The actual images used and the dimensions and computations for this.
 
I would LOVE to see the computations and images used to "prove" the impact was faked.
Betcha these NEVER get posted!
The purpose being that using those -same- images, what the proper result
would have been, when performed by someone (anyone) who can read and interpret images.
Jack White and Fetzer are NOT qualified to do this.
 
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Considering the documented steel that was collected...................

It wouldn't be too much to ask where you pulled this little tid-bit from?

I'm not calling you a liar, I'm just saying you are sadly mistaken.

I should have added, ". . . in its footprint". With WTC-7, all the floors were falling at the same time, it came down at approximately free-fall speed, and there was a pile of debris equal to about 12% of the height of the original (or 5.5 floors) in its footprint.

With the Twin Towers, they were blowing apart in every direction, being converted into millions of cubic yards of very fine dust and, when it was over there was no pile of debris (in its footprint). There were completely different. For more, consider:

“9/11 Truth will out: The Vancouver Hearings II”
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/09/12/911-truth-will-out-the-vancouver-hearings-ii/

“Mini Neutron Bombs: A Major Piece of the 9/11 Puzzle” with Don Fox, Clare Kuehn, Jeff Prager, Jim Viken, Dr. Ed Ward and Dennis Cimino
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/10/29/mini-neutron-bombs-a-major-piece-of-the-911-puzzle/

“Mystery Solved: The WTC was Nuked on 9/11”
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/05/01/mystery-solved-the-wtc-was-nuked-on-911/

“2 + 2 = Israel Nuked the WTC on 9/11”
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/08/28/2-2-israel-nuked-the-wtc-on-911/

"Busting 9/11 Myths: Nanothermite, Big Nukes and DEWs” with Don Fox http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/09/19/busting-911-myths-nanothermite-big-nukes-and-dews/

“The Complete Midwest 9/11 Truth Conference”
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/10/03/the-complete-midwest-911-truth-conference-parts-1-2-and-3/

“9/11: A World Swirling in Volcano of Lies”
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/02/14/911-a-world-swirling-in-a-volcano-of-lies/
 
Thorium and Uranium: These elements only exist in radioactive form. Thorium is a radioactive element formed from Uranium by decay. It’s very rare and should not be present in building rubble, ever.


Say what??? Scroll down to "Natural Radioactivity in Building Materials". U and Th are in everything except wood.

http://www.physics.isu.edu/radinf/natural.htm


So once again we have verifiable evidence that a nuclear fission event has taken place



You don't have squat unless you provide an isotropic breakdown of the uranium. Only U-233 and U-235 are fissile and they make up a minuscule proportion of naturally-occurring uranium. Only if the U-235 outweighs the U-238 by a factor of factor 20 would you have evidence of a nuke.
 
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I would LOVE to see the "frame by frame" analysis of the impact that "proves" it is faked.
The actual images used and the dimensions and computations for this.

You can do it for yourself. Take the Hezarkhani or the Evan Fairbanks videos and do a frame-by-frame advance and you will see that, in both cases, the "plane" passes though its complete length into the building in the same number of frames it passes through its complete length in air--the same!

Anyone can replicate this. Since d = r x t, same d and same t equals same r. There is no diminution in velocity, when it should have dropped to zero. The "plane" was intersecting with seven (7) floors in the case of the North Tower, eight (8) in the case of the South, providing enormous horizontal resistance.

Those who insist that an aluminum airliner could effortlessly enter a Twin Tower are simply blowing smoke. They are the kind who would tell you that, if a car is driving really, really fast, it could pass through an enormous tree. I am sorry, but that illustrates the quality of thought that I have found here. See

“9/11: Planes/No Planes and ‘Video Fakery’”
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/02/20/911-planesno-planes-and-video-fakery/

“Reason and Rationality in Public Debate: The Case of Rob Balsamo”
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/0...ity-in-public-debate-the-case-of-rob-balsamo/

"Were the 9/11 crash sites faked?" (Seattle, WA, 13 June 2012):
Part 1
http://archive.org/details/scm-75926-drjamesfetzerinseattlejune1320
Part 2
http://archive.org/details/scm-75938-drjamesfetzerinseattlejune1320

“Fakery and Fraud in the 'Official Account' of 9/11”
http://donaldfox.wordpress.com/2012/06/22/jim-fetzers-vancouver-powerpoint/

“9/11 Truth will out: The Vancouver Hearings I”
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/09/07/911-truth-will-out-the-vancouver-hearings-i/

“Fakery and Fraud in the 'Official Account' of 9/11”
http://donaldfox.wordpress.com/2012/06/22/jim-fetzers-vancouver-powerpoint/

“9/11 Truth will out: The Vancouver Hearings I”
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/09/07/911-truth-will-out-the-vancouver-hearings-i/

“The Complete Midwest 9/11 Truth Conference”
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/10/03/the-complete-midwest-911-truth-conference-parts-1-2-and-3/
 
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I should have added, ". . . in its footprint". With WTC-7, all the floors were falling at the same time, it came down at approximately free-fall speed, and there was a pile of debris equal to about 12% of the height of the original (or 5.5 floors) in its footprint.

There is that funny definition of 'in its footprint that lets the building rubble block several streets, damage nearby buildings, etc.

With the Twin Towers, they were blowing apart in every direction, being converted into millions of cubic yards of very fine dust and, when it was over there was no pile of debris (in its footprint). There were completely different. For more, consider:

No pile of debris?! Are you even looking at the same spot as where the WTC was?

Linkfest Gish Gallop fails.
 
Prof. Fetzer, response above raises a number of questions that I am sure you'll be able to anwer:

a. If FBI agents were following a script and planting evidence to suggest that a Boeing 767 crashed into a WTC Building, why are they not using only 767 parts?
b. Why have none of these people had an atack of conscience and confessed to their role in this matter?
c. How many truckloads of aircraft parts were trucked in to the WTC site for people to find and why haven't any of these people come forward?
d. How does scattering plane parts around hide the fact that people saw the planes that hit the WTC buildings and had filmed it?
e. What speed do you calculate the plane had, and why is that speed impossible?
f. Why is the entry of the plane into the buildng impossible?
g. This "recently found peice of landing gear" with rope attached to it - when was it found, and what buildings was it "wedged" in between.
h. This "deception" you are referring to - who is deceiving who? Who benefits?

Well, I discuss most of these in the articles I have linked:

a. They mucked up.
b. They don't want to lose their jobs.
c. Not a lot, it would have been too obvious.
d. They saw what they took to be "planes" but were not.
e. Pilots for 9/11 Truth exposed the excessive speed years ago.
f. Because it displayed no collision effects and violated Newton's laws.
g. You guys really don't pay any attention to anything going outside JREF?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2315518/Plane-fragment-9-11-wedged-Manhattan-buildings.html

Monday, Jul 7th 2014 3PM 71°F 6PM 78°F 5-Day Forecast

Part of landing gear from 9/11 plane is found wedged between luxury condos and Ground Zero Islamic center - 11 years after attacks

Police say the 5-foot piece of landing gear from one of the planes was found Wednesday lodged in a tiny alley just blocks from Ground Zero

Area is being treated like a crime scene and Commissioner Ray Kelly told reporters the gear had a rope wrapped around it and may could have been lowered into the 18-inch gap

Medical Examiner will determine whether or not they search for human remains in the alley between the two lower Manhattan buildings

By MEGHAN KENEALLY and JOSHUA GARDNER and SNEJANA FARBEROV

PUBLISHED: 16:05 EST, 26 April 2013 | UPDATED: 02:40 EST, 27 April 2013

Police have found a sizable piece of one of the engines from a plane that crashed into the World Trade Center, more than 11 years after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.

The piece of landing gear was found wedged between two buildings just blocks from Ground Zero- in between the buildings at 51 Park Place and 50 Murray Street in downtown Manhattan.

The location is particularly noteworthy because 51 Park Place is the site of the Islamic Cultural Center that stirred up controversy and months of protests two years ago when the site developers wanted to turn it into a mosque.
 
I should have added, ". . . in its footprint". With WTC-7, all the floors were falling at the same time, it came down at approximately free-fall speed, and there was a pile of debris equal to about 12% of the height of the original (or 5.5 floors) in its footprint.

With the Twin Towers, they were blowing apart in every direction, being converted into millions of cubic yards of very fine dust and, when it was over there was no pile of debris (in its footprint). There were completely different. For more, consider:

“9/11 Truth will out: The Vancouver Hearings II”
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/09/12/911-truth-will-out-the-vancouver-hearings-ii/

“Mini Neutron Bombs: A Major Piece of the 9/11 Puzzle” with Don Fox, Clare Kuehn, Jeff Prager, Jim Viken, Dr. Ed Ward and Dennis Cimino
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/10/29/mini-neutron-bombs-a-major-piece-of-the-911-puzzle/

“Mystery Solved: The WTC was Nuked on 9/11”
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/05/01/mystery-solved-the-wtc-was-nuked-on-911/

“2 + 2 = Israel Nuked the WTC on 9/11”
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/08/28/2-2-israel-nuked-the-wtc-on-911/

"Busting 9/11 Myths: Nanothermite, Big Nukes and DEWs” with Don Fox http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/09/19/busting-911-myths-nanothermite-big-nukes-and-dews/

“The Complete Midwest 9/11 Truth Conference”
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/10/03/the-complete-midwest-911-truth-conference-parts-1-2-and-3/

“9/11: A World Swirling in Volcano of Lies”
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/02/14/911-a-world-swirling-in-a-volcano-of-lies/
Wow, Jim. Just like some bot would do it.

I got an email from "Gravy". He said Hi.


wake me when you can act like a human.
 
Mr. Fetzer: you present one unsupported assertion that someone saw someone moving something.

I present the collection of impact video clips:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DoE8Uz2ia3M

Twenty different videos shot from 20 different cameras, angles and distances agree that a massive spinning object left the WTC after impact/explosion at a time consistent with travel time within the building from point of impact. Twenty differnt angles can be extrapolated to arrive at Church and Murray.

But you have one guy who claims to have seen a thingie of some kind or other.

And then we have the other piece of large ejecta that can be seen in those clips. Did your FBI NWO garden gnomes also plant the 100 square foot piece of fuselage on a rooftop? In broad daylight?

Yes, something was ejected, just as something was filmed, but it was not a part of a Boeing 767 and it was not a Boeing 767. And surely you were not taken in by the planted fuselage parts on the rooftop. Do you understand my position on what we see in those videos and why I maintain it?

Do you appreciate that, since we are witnessing impossible events (flying faster than possible at that altitude for a Boeing 767 and entering the building with no collision effects in violation of Newton's laws), we are witnessing some kind of video fakery? I am troubled if you've been taken in.

<SNIP>

You need to watch one of my presentations or read some of my articles, which link or present the work of Pilots for 9/11 Truth.

NOTE: Try "The Complete Midwest 9/11 Truth Conference", Part 2 (which only runs one hour) linked here:
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/10/03/the-complete-midwest-911-truth-conference-parts-1-2-and-3/

<SNIP>

I suggest you check it out.

I explain these things again and again in my articles and presentations, but NO ONE HERE bothers to study them, which is the absurdity of this entire thread: you are attacking my work without knowing my work! I guess that is par for the course here. Practically no one here gives a **** about truth.

Removed breaches of Rule 12 and edited to properly mask profanity in accordance with Rule 10. Please read the Membership Agreement to which you agreed when you signed up here, and abide by it.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL
 
Last edited by a moderator:
fetzer said:
"Building 7 may be the most robust building built at the hand of man."
Jim Fetzer, you crazy, bro. Please rank the next dozen or so "robust" buildings, in order of robustness.

fetzer said:
Jesse Ventura has a gift for making complex points in a simple way....and he observes that his camping stove, which uses propane, which has a higher temperature than kerosene, yet doesn't melt....
derp derp derp

sheeple ....... lemmings ...... chemtrails ....

:rolleyes:
 
Jim Fetzer, you crazy, bro. Please rank the next dozen or so "robust" buildings, in order of robustness.

derp derp derp

:rolleyes:

Have you paid any attention to the design and construction of these buildings? WTC-7 was erected over a pair of electrical generators providing electricity for lower Manhattan.

The steel used in its construction was solid steel, where even the steel used for the Twin Towers was hollowed out at the center, which provides nearly as much but not quite as much strength.

But for WTC-7, they used SOLID STEEL. I am not making a definitive claim here, but it looks like an accurate appraisal. It was designed to NEVER COLLAPSE. And it took them a long time to prep it.

Those of you who have never watched Barry Jennings talk about his experiences in WTC-7 really need to do that: explosions, dead bodies, a staircase blown out beneath him--all that morning long before 5:20.
 
<snip>

Those who insist that an aluminum airliner could effortlessly enter a Twin Tower are simply blowing smoke. They are the kind who would tell you that, if a car is driving really, really fast, it could pass through an enormous tree. I am sorry, but that illustrates the quality of thought that I have found here.

<snip>


Or if a ping-pong ball was traveling really, really fast it could pass through a ping-pong paddle?

Nah. Couldn't happen.

It would defy the Laws Of Physics™.

Like bumble bees, I guess.
 
Have you paid any attention to the design and construction of these buildings? WTC-7 was erected over a pair of electrical generators providing electricity for lower Manhattan.

So?

The steel used in its construction was solid steel, where even the steel used for the Twin Towers was hollowed out at the center, which provides nearly as much but not quite as much strength.
The wrong in this statement just needs to be quoted.

But for WTC-7, they used SOLID STEEL. I am not making a definitive claim here, but it looks like an accurate appraisal. It was designed to NEVER COLLAPSE. And it took them a long time to prep it.

Again. I can't add anything to this. Can we conclude you claim it was indestructible?

Those of you who have never watched Barry Jennings talk about his experiences in WTC-7 really need to do that: explosions, dead bodies, a staircase blown out beneath him--all that morning long before 5:20.

Jennings was with someone that doesn't agree. His time-line is wrong and I can prove it.


Jim, What year is this?
 
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Have you paid any attention to the design and construction of these buildings? WTC-7 was erected over a pair of electrical generators providing electricity for lower Manhattan.
OK. You said:

Jim Fetzer said:
"Building 7 may be the most robust building built at the hand of man."
Since you claim some expertise in this field, please list the top 10 "most robust" buildings built at the hand of man. Thanks.


The steel used in its construction was solid steel, where even the steel used for the Twin Towers was hollowed out at the center, which provides nearly as much but not quite as much strength.

But for WTC-7, they used SOLID STEEL. I am not making a definitive claim here, but it looks like an accurate appraisal. It was designed to NEVER COLLAPSE. And it took them a long time to prep it.
Wow. A building designed to never collapse. Crazy. Which buildings were designed to collapse at some point? Again, a top 10 list would be welcome.
 
Continuous, unrelenting personal attacks noted and reported.

Based on your inexperienced attempt at identifying jet engines, which lacks foundation.

Based on your uninformed expectations for how impact damage should appear, for which you provide no foundation.

Further expectations leveled without foundation.

A suppositional conclusion drawn from no demonstrable body of fact and no expert foundation.

Cart before the horse. You have not proven the engine was planted. You have noted what, from your lack of foundation, appear to be inconsistencies in the evidence. You have lept to the conclusion that the explanation for those inconsistencies is that the evidence was planted. You explicitly avoid considering or testing any other conclusion, or even your own conclusion.

In fact, your conclusion that the engine was "planted" is supposition based entirely on your uninformed opinion for what you think you should be seeing instead. It's as begged a question as a question can get.

From the supposition that the parts were planted, you infer the existence of operatives to do so, and you display obvious confirmation bias in asserting that the people you say the video shows unloading "heavy equipment" must be those planting evidence.

You assert this as the only rational conclusion, and you completely ignore all the reasons given for why it isn't rational.

No, that is not my argument.

You are the one affirmatively claiming not only that the found footage is relevant, but that the identification of the incident as the planting of evidence is a foregone conclusion. You are the one making affirmative claims while flatly denying any obligation to prove that your analysis is the correct one.

I'm simply disputing your fervent desire to railroad your conclusions through without any sort of critical observation or consideration.

Straw man: I am suggesting no such thing. You beg the question that the engine parts were necessarily planted, hence you propose to limit all my rebuttals to those that can explain that proposition.

I reject the proposition that the engine parts were necessarily planted. Hence I am under no obligation, under the notion of subverted support, to explain "how they got there," or to otherwise explain away the purported actions of FBI agents.

Elaborations in attempting to shift the burden of proof do not make it any more acceptable.

Straw men are usually indefensible because they are constructed by the interlocutor precisely to be so.

My position is simply the null hypothesis. Until proven otherwise, the engines found near the vicinity of a crash site are most likely those from the crashed airplane. Until proven otherwise, the activities of a group of people nearby at an earlier time are most likely unrelated.

For all your bluster in telling everyone within the sound of your voice how irrational, indefensible, and "typical" my arguments are, you manage to avoid addressing a single point in any of them. And you have now completely abandoned your discussion of your Apollo claims. Unlike you, my credibility doesn't seem to rely on having to tell readers how they should interpret the course of the argument. I presume they can see for themselves which of us is the most evasive.

How do you imagine this observation proves any part of your fairy tale?

I don't want to waste a lot of time on this guy, who is one of the worst who posts here while pretending to be superior. We have an engine that is not from a Boeing 767 sitting on an undamaged sidewalk under a steel scaffolding instead of being embedded in the ground.

We have a white van with agents wearing FBI vests unloading something heavy. Since the engine component was planted, someone has to have planted it. We are talking about a simple relationship between effect (the planted engine) and cause (the men in vests planting it).

Given the available evidence, your stance is irrational and indefensible. We are confronted with two hypotheses: (h1) it is an engine from the Boeing 767 that is alleged to have hit the South Tower; (h2) it is a planted engine that did not come from any Boeing 767.

Given (h1), what is the probability that it would be sitting on an apparently undamaged sidewalk, under a steel scaffolding and not even come from a Boeing 767? The answer, of course, is that the probability is zero, which means (h1) is incompatible with the evidence.

Given (h2), what is the probability that it would be sitting on an apparently undamaged sidewalk, under a steel scaffolding and not even come from a Boeing 767? The answer, of course, is that it would be relatively high--if those who were doing this were following a script.

Your position requires that, by the sheerest coincidence, a white van is at the intersection of Church & Murray where men in FBI vests are unloading something heavy. Leave the dolly out of it, since it may have come later. But we clearly have no coincidence but a relation of cause and effect.

No other alternative, such as spontaneous materialization, has any plausibility at all. I recommend you study inference to the best explanation, because your approach has nothing to recommend it. In this instance, you have completely missed the boat. Nice try, but a mediocre attempt to explain way a clear proof of fakery on 9/11.
 
Jim Fetzer, you crazy, bro. Please rank the next dozen or so "robust" buildings, in order of robustness.

derp derp derp

:rolleyes:

Have you paid any attention to the design and construction of these buildings? WTC-7 was erected over a pair of electrical generators providing electricity for lower Manhattan.

The steel used in its construction was solid steel, where even the steel used for the Twin Towers was hollowed out at the center, which provides nearly as much but not quite as much strength.

But for WTC-7, they used SOLID STEEL. I am not making a definitive claim here, but it looks like an accurate appraisal. It was designed to NEVER COLLAPSE. And it took them a long time to prep it.

Those of you who have never watched Barry Jennings talk about his experiences in WTC-7 really need to do that: explosions, dead bodies, a staircase blown out beneath him--all that morning long before 5:20.
 
You can do it for yourself. Take the Hezarkhani or the Evan Fairbanks videos and do a frame-by-frame advance and you will see that, in both cases, the "plane" passes though its complete length into the building in the same number of frames it passes through its complete length in air--the same!

...
.
"into the building". It didn't stop dead at the outside. How odd!
Flying into open structure can be expected to have that result.
The layer of glass the outside is mostly won't do much to slow a large object moving fast, will it, or don't you know?
I'm guessing (very educated guess) you don't have a clue.
 
These guys are not rocket scientists. They were following the script. It would take someone very familiar with engines to detect the mistake, but they wanted it to use as proof for the gullible that a Boeing 767 had hit the South Tower. And I guess, to judge by this thread, they succeeded.
What about the "non-gullible"?

What about the UA mechanics?

The P&W engineers?

Did the perps not care about them?

Why haven't they blown the whistle? Or are you seriously saying that they were

  • in on it
  • killed
  • silenced
  • fearful
  • ignorant of the whole thing
  • gullible and they bought it
  • not caring enough about it
  • ________________________ (fill the blank)
?

Or would they rather see the engine and say "that's not my engine"?

Not buying it.
 
.
"into the building". It didn't stop dead at the outside. How odd!
Flying into open structure can be expected to have that result.
The layer of glass the outside is mostly won't do much to slow a large object moving fast, will it, or don't you know?
I'm guessing (very educated guess) you don't have a clue.

Typical of the slovenly approach that dominates this forum. The amount of glass was less than 1/4 of the facade (deliberately to not over-stress the air conditioning equipment).

The North Tower "plane" was intersecting seven (7) floors and the South eight (8) consisting of steel trusses filled with 4-8" of concrete (or, at 208' a side, about an acre of concrete apiece).

Posting in ignorance seems to be the standard here. I have explained all of this AGAIN AND AGAIN, but no one bothers to study my work. Like you, they just make up what they think I believe and attack that!
 

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