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#1001 |
Muse
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 556
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He said he had no idea what happened behind closed doors ie real or apparent consent. Which is common-sense.
Obviously he is confirming that the timeline, her claim of rape, her claim of using a wheelchair is true. He is also presenting evidence of a casual and callous indifference to her claims at the time. |
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#1002 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,339
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#1003 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 32,124
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If he didn't want to detail his sexual exploits to Wagg, then why did he email and phone him about them, unsolicited?
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#1004 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 11,681
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Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it. |
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#1005 | ||
Sum of all evils tm
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 25.8333° N, 77.9000° W
Posts: 25,007
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#1006 |
Muse
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 556
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#1007 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 65,881
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I think it's obvious that there are states of degraded capacity where it's difficult--if not impossible to honestly infer one thing or another. For example, a person could be in a state of degraded capacity where they are able to operate an elevator, operate a telephone, describe their surroundings, and follow instructions over the phone ("take the elevator to the lobby and describe your surroundings"); but they are unable to recall what hotel they are in, and are unable to cross a busy street on foot safely. Are they able to consent to sex or not, in such a state? I think it's impossible to infer one way or the other from the available information.
Fortunately, such an inference is not necessary. Her claim of rape does not depend on her level of inebriation, nor should it. |
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#1008 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 65,881
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#1009 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: North of the White Line of Toldt
Posts: 3,140
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#1010 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,842
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You misquoted the caption on the picture. On that blog Smith tells a little story about her experience and then shows a picture related to that story. You quoted what was below the picture which was in the context of what came next.
The actual caption of the picture is:
Quote:
What you quoted came next and it went:
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#1011 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,842
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Well, Mr. Wagg failed to answer my last post thinking perhaps that he had silenced my questions with his dramatic entrance into the thread.
... Employing Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit, this action sent big red flags scurrying up the pole. I have thought about his posts all day because they really were quite dramatic but his description of his actions are bizarre and just raise more questions and red flags. So, Mr. Wagg, I have a few comments and a few more questions. Here's what you said: 1- Smith, an employee, and possible girlfriend, of yours, told you that Shermer had raped her. You did nothing. As her employer, lover, friend, you did nothing. My question would be, why not? It absolutely does not make sense unless you did not believe her. Shermer had no power over you, over her, or over the JREF but you did nothing. So, why didn't you believe her? ... Why didn't you do anything? ![]() How much had you had to drink that night? Were you present at the party where Smith was downing shots? Did you drive her to the condo or take a taxi? Whose condo was it, yours or hers? Someone asked earlier in the thread "Does anyone still believe nothing bad happened behind that door?" And you said, "I don't know what happened behind that closed door." (both paraphrased) You are right that we can't know for certain what happened behind Shermer's closed door but something terrible did happen behind a closed door and we do know about it. It happened behind the door of a hotel room that you and Smith occupied when you made a conscious decision to do nothing about a rape report from an employee, friend and lover. |
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#1012 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 973
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#1013 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 973
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#1014 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 32,124
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#1015 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 11,681
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Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it. |
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#1016 |
Muse
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 556
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I was expecting Wagg, if he came on at all, to present a simple prepared statement supporting exactly that proposition.
What we got was a him being careful to caveat his support (ie he explicitly extended his statement to stress he didn't know what happened and therefore wasn't directly supporting a claim of rape) and him confirming a lack of meaningful supportive action. In addition we have no evidence of medium term action other than a possibly inconclusive conversation with the head of JREF. This places his testimony of her physical state in a specific context. One where it behoves you to also choose your words carefully. And this I've done. |
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#1017 |
Muse
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 766
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#1018 | ||
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,282
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I have the honor to be Your Obdt. St L. Leader |
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#1019 | ||
Sum of all evils tm
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 25.8333° N, 77.9000° W
Posts: 25,007
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#1020 |
Miss Schoolteacher
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 15,221
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Uh, no. The "it" in "It was a blast. Truly." clearly refers to the portion of the evening spent with Shermer.
That, in fact, was the entire point of Verklagekasper's post. |
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#1021 |
boy named crow
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,205
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I can recall expressing doubts over the allegations about Shermer on this forum about a year ago. I don't know if I should, but I feel a little guilty about that now. Maybe that feeling is just hindsight bias and I was right to be skeptical when there was so little information out there. I don't think it's unreasonable to be on the fence when there's not much to go on, I just think my disdain for PZ Myers and my perception that there was a climate of attacking prominent or quasi-prominent skeptics in any way possible at the time was clouding my judgment and maybe even causing me to lean toward the other side of the fence. Needless to say I'm pretty well convinced of Shermer's guilt now and I apologize if I wrote anything unreasonable in his defense in the past.
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#1022 |
boy named crow
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,205
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How is it relevant whether it's a common habit or not?
I don't think it's all that unusual to find oneself much drunker than one expected or intended (although if one does decide do it intentionally that is also their right and it certainly does not make them any less wronged if they get raped). I have personal experience with this. At a halloween party at a friend's house once, I found myself so drunk that I could barely stand or talk. It was a state that I'd never been in before even though I'd been drunk many times, definitely not expected or intended. Also, a gay man who was the hosts' roommate had been giving me beers, was asking me if I needed to lie down in his bed and according to my friends (I was apparently too out of it to notice) he was doing stuff like kissing me on the cheek. I have no idea if he actually had any ill intentions or if he was just goofing around, but I'm grateful that my friends intervened and drove me home and I didn't have to find out. I have an easy time sympathizing with anyone who's been in that type of situation and no sympathy for asking people who've been raped why they got so drunk. |
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#1023 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,062
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Plate tectonics. When first proposed there wasn't sufficient evidence to support it. That decades later it was able to be proven doesn't make people wrong to not have accepted it from the start. I'm not a scientist or anything, but I thought that was one of the core ideas behind skepticism : not actively believing claims for which there is insufficient evidence. As longs as people aren't jerks about it I don't see not having taken a leap of faith into the 'belief' camp prior to more recent info as anything to feel improper about. |
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#1024 |
NWO Kitty Wrangler
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29,690
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I've had similar experiences. I was at a house party with friends one time. I had drunk all the wine I'd brought with me over the course of the night, so I was drunk but not falling down drunk. Just before we left, my buddy wanted to get rid of what was left of his booze. He'd been making these really weird concoctions all night, I forget what it actually was, but it was one of those fancy sweet drinks where it's hard to tell how much booze there is. He mixed me up one, which I proceeded to chug, because my ride had just announced they were leaving right then. It was only after seeing the look on his face that I asked how much was in it. It was a lot. That one final drink put me more over the top drunk than most people have ever seen me. |
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Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd |
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#1025 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 11,681
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Did you guys hear about the wall of silence preventing us from discussing these issues?
http://feedly.com/e/wqSn9rFP |
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Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it. |
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#1026 | |||
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 56,467
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To help the debate, the JREF twitter account has just publicised a talk from TAM 2013 on Science and Morality.
By Michael Shermer. |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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#1027 |
Muse
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 766
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Gay Marriage Bans falling like dominos?
Why did Wagg do nothing?
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Last edited by Loss Leader; 2nd October 2014 at 09:27 AM. Reason: This post got bounced around due to Mod error. Sorry if it generated multiple auto-messages |
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#1028 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 11,681
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Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it. |
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#1029 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,842
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Most likely at the time of the incident he didn't feel there was a need. No medical attention because she wasn't as drunk as she now claims and no report of rape to police or the JREF because he didn't believe it happened/wasn't told it happened.
And why did she have to call him twice, 2 1/2 hours apart to come get her as she claims, is that how friends/lovers/employers behave? And why wasn't there a mention of talking to Wagg earlier as is now claimed? Originally she said she was talking to her mother when Shermer showed up. So. . . Shermer didn't get her drunk. She voluntarily went to his hotel room and consented to sex but now claims she was too drunk to consent but not too drunk to remember all the other details. Okay, I'll buy that. ![]() |
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"How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be." |
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#1030 |
boy named crow
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,205
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The slymepit argument seems to be that it can't have been rape because Smith didn't act the way rape victims are supposed to act and Wagg didn't act the way that someone whose girlfriend was raped is supposed to act (e.g. they took a smiling picture with Shermer at some point after the incident had happened). A little research into the subject would tell you that the argument doesn't hold up. Often times in real life people don't act like they do in the movies.
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#1031 |
NWO Kitty Wrangler
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29,690
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Having discussed this with Jeff Wagg, as opposed to just assuming things, I can say with confidence that your suppositions are completely erroneous.
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Where did she say the first call was to "come get her"? Certainly not in the original article:
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...or in her post in this thread: You're making up things so you can find an excuse to not believe what she's said. And you're making them up badly. Before they got to his room, she though Shermer was walking her to her room. Why would she have thought she needed Jeff to come get her at that point (not being psychic, of course)? And speaking of making things up, you then say:
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As can be plainly seen above, there was mention of calling Jeff in the original reports. What there is not is any mention of her mother. That fantasy of yours just seems to come out of left field.
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And in light of all the above, your conclusions are worthless. Please try again. |
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Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd |
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#1032 |
Muse
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 556
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Not quite.
The point being made is that there were no helpful ripples at the time to corroborate - no JREF report, no punch-up, no harsh words, no police report. There were no ripples in the years following - Wagg initiated more speaking gigs, Smith voluntarily sat on panels with Shermer, Smith organised panels for Shermer directly, all three posed for happy snaps. There is no corroboration now. Wagg pointedly caveats his comments with 'behind closed doors' references and limited the 'did she claim rape at the time' question to one word 'yes' - ie no corroborative context. And we have Randi (responding to an unstated question) apparently reacting to a complaint that flew under the 'rape' threshold. So we are left with a claim that garnered zero traction at any point in its history prior to PZ's leveraging. And yet we highly trained skeptics are expected to take this 6 year old memory of a drunken encounter which was dismissed at the time, as gospel. Ok. Carry on. |
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#1033 |
Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 135
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First, there is no "the slymepit argument" - it's not some monolithic hive-mind, regardless of whatever perception you might have to the contrary. The truth is there is a spectrum of views with some believing that the rape allegation is true, some believing it's false, and many in the undecided/unknown/uncertain middle ground.
Second, nobody there is suggesting that "it can't have been rape". That is a complete mischaracterization of the actual arguments that are being made, and furthermore, suggests that you simply do not understand the general ethos of the slymepit regulars (which includes a strong aversion to ideological and absolutist views of any kind). If you doubt this, I dare you to post your strawman there as if it were a serious comment and see what reaction you get; I'm betting your "argument" (such as it is) would be quickly torn to shreds and you would be roundly mocked for such simplistic black-or-white thinking. What I have seen is merely people evaluating the veracity of the allegations against the verifable facts and coming to provisional conclusions that are subject to change when new facts become available. Is that something you have a problem with for some reason? A little research into the subject would tell you that your comment conveys a gross mischaracterization that doesn't hold up when compared against reality. |
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#1034 |
Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 135
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Would you mind filling us in on what you were told then? At this point, given that the allegations have been made very public, don't you think that full disclosure is in order?
At the risk of being accused of JAQing off, I can't help but wonder why nobody sought medical attention for someone so drunk they required a wheelchair. Is that something you can explain? It seems that nobody within JREF took the allegations seriously at the time, and so I can't help but wonder who failed to act on those allegations and what were their reasons. In other words, did Mr. Wagg report the allegations to anyone else and if so who? If not, why not? What was the stated reason for not taking the allegations seriously enough to at least sever ties with the accused? These are fair questions that deserve clear and frank answers. |
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#1035 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 11,681
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Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it. |
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#1036 |
NWO Kitty Wrangler
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29,690
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...which Shermer has quite explicitly said was not a drunken encounter. Why do you guys keep ignoring that fact? It's really quite simple. We have two accounts of that night, that are entirely consistent up to the point they left the Scotch and Cigar Party, and which are entirely inconsistent after that. There's really no way to massage one story until it fits with the other. Shermer claims they were both sober after a few hours walking around The Strip, Alison claims they went straight to his room, and she was still so drunk afterwards that she didn't know where she was, and needed help to get back to her room, and then back to her home. You can't reconcile those stories. Stop trying. If you still want to support Shermer, Step the **** up and have the guts to say you think Alison is flat out lying. But stop with these pathetic attempts to reconcile their stories. They can't be reconciled. Yes, I would mind. Jeff has posted in this thread, and is a well known figure in our community, and can easily be found if you're serious about asking him what went on. Stop just assuming you know what he was thinking, and try actually asking him. |
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Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd |
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#1037 |
Muse
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 556
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Corroboration of the rape - or even first person opinion.
We have Alison's account corroborated. Most people accepted she had claimed rape. It was useful to have this dated back to the day. We have her drinking corroborated, again most people accepted she hadn't been sober. It was helpful having her legless status confirmed. It was awkward that despite this, Wagg a) added caveats and b) didn't act upon the information apart from a probable under-cooked representation to an 80 yo Randi. It confirmed drunken sex and an allegation. |
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#1038 |
Muse
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 556
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#1039 |
Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 135
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I'm pretty sure that me asking questions is a clear indication that I am, in effect, trying to ask him (via you) rather than assuming what he's thinking. I don't know him and he doesn't know me, whereas you didn't seem to mind refering to your special inside information in your previous response.
Thanks anyway though. |
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#1040 |
boy named crow
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,205
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In that case it seems a needlessly convoluted way of simply saying that you don't believe there is enough evidence to reach a conclusion.
Who said anything about gospel, BTW? I find Smith's account credible and so far it seems to be the one supported by the evidence. I don't find Shermer's account/s credible. That doesn't mean I believe Shermer is 100%, with a doubt, definitely guilty of the allegations made about him. It means I've formed what I consider a reasonable conclusion about what is most likely to be the case. Fair enough. I said "seems" because I noticed fairly widespread praise for Mykeru's video, in which he seemed to make that argument. And when I say "the slymepit argument" I don't mean the view shared by everyone who posts there, just what I (perhaps incorrectly) perceive as being the commonly accepted view.
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First it is claimed that the allegations against Shermer were made because he was "next in line" in the targeting of big name skeptics by people on FTB and Skepchick. This seems to dismiss the possibility that the allegations could have been because they were true. Then the video brings up the ritual abuse scare / satanic panic phenomenon of the 1980s in which (among other things) preschoolers were manipulating into making bizarre accusations against adults that were actually false. It is suggests that since FTB and such places have been full of sexual harassment stories and such, this will cause people to come forth and say that it happened to them too (implying that such claims would happen even if they weren't true). Wagg and Smith's behavior's after the incident are both seemingly described as being implausible for someone who had been raped by Shermer and for someone who's girlfriend had been raped by Shermer. The picture, for instance, is brought up. And one point in the video Mykeru even says "If you cant drink without getting obliterated and can't keep your genitals stowed then shut the **** up and stop complaining." I would at least hope that one wouldn't say something like that about someone if they actually believed that there was a reasonable chance they were telling the truth about a rape experience. And finally, like I said, I saw a bunch of people praising the video as "great" or "excellent". Even Aneris, who I generally respect as being thoughtful and intelligent. To be fair this doesn't necessarily mean they agree with everything in it. And I certainly haven't read all the posts on the pit on the subject of the allegations against Shermer. As a side note, you initially objected to me generalizing about the slymepit by claiming that it's not a monolythic entity and now you're claiming that "slymepit regulars" are strongly averse to "ideological and absolutist views of any kind". That seems more than a little inconsistent.
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