How homeopathy does work? - 4 Years of DHMS course.

Chris Haynes · May 11, 2005

Dr. MAS said:
...Homeopathy is a scientific system of medicine. ...

If it were a real system of medicine, then it would be the standard of care for many conditions. Since you feel that it works for HIV/AIDS and hepatitis, then it would be the standard of care for these viruses... not the expensive anti-virals that are now required.

Dr. MAS said:
This was discovered by Samuel Hahnemann some two hundred years ago. ...

Explain how it was discovered... give more detail than what was presented by Rolfe.

Dr. MAS said:
Homeopathy is a system of medicine which is based on natural laws which was already existing but not in practice, ...

When studying science and the history of science "natural laws" do not start out as LAWS. They start out as a hyporthesis (an idea how it might be), then they will progress to a theory... and finally after showing consistent results through experiements and observation will be regarded as "natural laws".

Natural laws include Newton's Three Laws of Motion and his law of gravity. There are also concepts like the "Conservation of Mass" . Also there are the three laws of thermodynamics, which can be noted simply here http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae280.cfm as

Thermodynamics is the study of the inter-relation between heat, work and internal energy of a system.

The British scientist and author C.P. Snow had an excellent way of remembering the three laws:

1) You cannot win (that is, you cannot get something for nothing, because matter and energy are conserved).

2) You cannot break even (you cannot return to the same energy state, because there is always an increase in disorder; entropy always increases).

3) You cannot get out of the game (because absolute zero is unattainable).

Which also means that the natural laws that apply to the rest of the world must also apply to homeopathy. There is no magic water memory to cause a cure in a dilution so great that the original tincture may not even be in the "remedy".

There are some "natural" things still under review, like the "Theory of Relativity" and "Unified Field Theory".

Presently we must reject your blatent assertion that "homeopathy works" because it violates a couple of well established natural principles. Those being the Conservation of Matter. Here I found an online tutorial that should explain it to you:
http://www.learner.org/channel/courses/essential/physicalsci/session4/

If you register you can watch a video of 11 to 12 year olds learning these basic concepts.

Dr. MAS said:
Hahneamann was the first who understood and applied this law therapeutically. ...

The question is how did he jump from "hypothesis" to "law"? Did he do experiments.. or did he just guess? Did he know that his reaction to cinchona bark was not normal, that he was actually having an allergic reaction?

What did Hahnemann actually understand?

Dr. MAS said:
Homeopathy is based on the therapeutic law / principle â€œSimilia Similibus Curenturâ€ , a Latin phrase, which means that â€œlike cures likeâ€. ...

So is it a real law because it has given consistent results through experimentation?... or just because you say so? Give us the details on how it became a law. Or at least show us you have some understanding of basic science.

Rolfe · May 11, 2005

Non-Sense Homeopath said:
How you will recognized that Rolfe is not "perpetual"

Ewig war ich,
ewig bin ich,
ewig in sÃ¼ss
sehnender Wonne, -
doch ewig zu deinem Heil!

Rolfe. :c1:

Donks · May 11, 2005

Rolfe said:
Ewig war ich,
ewig bin ich,
ewig in sÃ¼ss
sehnender Wonne, -
doch ewig zu deinem Heil!

Rolfe.

Is that extreme Kumarese?

steenkh · May 11, 2005

Rolfe said:
Ewig war ich,
ewig bin ich,
ewig in sÃ¼ss
sehnender Wonne, -
doch ewig zu deinem Heil!

Absolutely beautiful! I will, however, leave it to you to translate it. After all, you let the cat out of the bag

Homeo Man · May 11, 2005

Perpetual Notion said:
What does it matter who is asking the question? A question is a question and either he can answer it or he won't.

A question is just a question, who is the initiator this is non of the buisness. Yes, very right

but show courage to ask yourself, don't bother your brother, sisters, mothers, fathers, uncles, mummy, daddy, aunti, cousins, maternal father, sister in laws, father in laws, servants etc.

Donks · May 11, 2005

Homeo Man said:
A question is just a question, who is the initiator this is non of the buisness. Yes, very right

but show courage to ask yourself, don't bother your brother, sisters, mothers, fathers, uncles, mummy, daddy, aunti, cousins, maternal father, sister in laws, father in laws, servants etc.

What the F*** are you talking about? Are you accusing someone of having multiple accounts, or accusing multiple people of using the same account? If you are, show evidence. If you aren't, shut the F*** up about it and discuss homeopathy.

MRC_Hans · May 11, 2005

Donks said:
What the F*** are you talking about? Are you accusing someone of having multiple accounts, or accusing multiple people of using the same account? If you are, show evidence. If you aren't, shut the F*** up about it and discuss homeopathy.

He's just trolling

. He's one more post like that from my ignore list.

Hans

Donks · May 11, 2005

MRC_Hans said:
He's just trolling . He's one more post like that from my ignore list.

Hans

I don't put people on ignore, but if I did, he'd be quite the fine candidate for it.

MRC_Hans · May 11, 2005

I have to put some on ignore. I seem incapable of not reading drivel otherwise

.

Hans

Badly Shaved Monkey · May 11, 2005

Homeo Man said:
A question is just a question, who is the initiator this is non of the buisness. Yes, very right

but show courage to ask yourself, don't bother your brother, sisters, mothers, fathers, uncles, mummy, daddy, aunti, cousins, maternal father, sister in laws, father in laws, servants etc.

So, are you, MAS, Homeo Man, Non-Sense Homeopath and Syed really the best your little team can come up with?

I've never seen a bunch of woos quite so fearful of defending their beliefs. Are you really so insecure that you daren't even attempt to defend yourselves? For all I care you can stand in the pillories for as long as you like. We have plenty of rotten veggies here and we can carry on throwing them so long as you like being the laughing stock.

Rolfe · May 11, 2005

Donks said:
Is that extreme Kumarese?

No.

You only had to Google it, I just copied and pasted. It's from the same page as I got the "Hello world" bit from, reference a discussion in TRSOTTTWND one time.

Rolfe.

Donks · May 11, 2005

Rolfe said:
No.

You only had to Google it, I just copied and pasted. It's from the same page as I got the "Hello world" bit from, reference a discussion in TRSOTTTWND one time.

Rolfe.

I don't know why I ever attempt humor. I obviously suck at it.

Rolfe · May 11, 2005

Donks said:
I don't know why I ever attempt humor. I obviously suck at it.

Nonsense. I did get that you were funny. It's my attempt at a dead-pan reply which clearly didn't work!

Rolfe.

Ashles · May 11, 2005

Well this turned into a fine lesson on the nature of homeopathy.

One post explaining that homeopathy is based on 'natural laws' without any detail.

Then... nothing.

I guess that's the point at which a scientific explanation of homeopathy gets a bit tricky... right at the beginnning.

andycal · May 11, 2005

I think this is why it's a four year course...

Perpetual Notion · May 11, 2005

I had been feeling jealous that all the posting happens in the middle of the night for me and I miss out on all the good stuff, but now I'm thinking that my time really is better spent in bed. Oh well, maybe I'll get my servant to stay up all night and post tricky questions

Rolfe · May 11, 2005

Badly Shaved Monkey said:
MAS, let's say you have a 1ml of 1 molar solution of Na2SO4 solution. In 1 litre you would have 6.022 x 1023 of each of the component moieties of Na2SO4. In 100ml you will have 6.022 x 1022.

If you want to use this as the basis for your next 1 in 100 dilution you will draw 1ml into a pipette and add 99ml water.

If the solution was well-mixed when you drew up that 1ml it will contain 6.022 x 1020 of each of the components of Na2SO4.

You have suggested that there may be some other number drawn up.

How many? What are the chances that the aspirate will contain a number substantially different from 6.022 x 1020?

Just in case this got buried under all the banter.

(Actually, BSM, that will be 2 x 6.022 x 1020 sodium ions, plus 6.022 x 1020 sulphate ions. So perhaps we should just concentrate on the sulphate ions for now.)

Mas, you may recall that in one of my posts that you didn't reply to, I went through the quesiton of pipetting accuracy. I pointed out that part of the homoeopathic procedure is succussion, which even at its least vigorous pretty much guarantees a more or less uniform mixing of the solution. I also pointed out that pipetting accuracy is something which is well understood, and that a careful worker should be able to manage less than 2% variation, while even a rather careless operator will still manage 5%.

So, given these facts, what are the chances that the 1ml that BSM is talking about will contain more than 6.323 x 1020 sulphate ions, or less than 5.721 x 1020? If you repeat the procedure 10 times, what are the chances that all 10 repetitions will all contain more than 6.022 x 1020 sulphate ions?

These are extremely important questions. They are very easy, certainly, but they are crucial to your case. Please answer them.

Also please answer the question regarding your evidence that "like cures like" is a natural law. Bearing in mind that we know Hahnemann misinterpreted his idiosyncratic reaction to cinchona bark as a universal effect, when it was not, and that he mistakenly ascribed the healing properties of the bark to this effect when in fact they are due to the toxic effect of quinine on Plasmodium vivax.

Please be assured that everyone here is capable of understanding these questions, and your answers to them.

Rolfe.

Badly Shaved Monkey · May 11, 2005

Rolfe said:
(Actually, BSM, that will be 2 x 6.022 x 1020 sodium ions, plus 6.022 x 1020 sulphate ions. So perhaps we should just concentrate on the sulphate ions for now.)

Ahem;

"of each of the component moieties"

delphi_ote · May 11, 2005

Homeo Man said:
A question is just a question, who is the initiator this is non of the buisness. Yes, very right

but show courage to ask yourself, don't bother your brother, sisters, mothers, fathers, uncles, mummy, daddy, aunti, cousins, maternal father, sister in laws, father in laws, servants etc.

Alright. This is going to be hard. Must... show... courage!

Alright, delphi_ote... you smart mouthed jerk! I've got a question for you. And you're not getting away with pawning it off to my brother, sisters, mothers, fathers, uncles, mummy, daddy, aunti, cousins, maternal father, sister in laws, father in laws, servants etc. THIS time! I've got you cornered, and I want a straight answer!

If you're so smart, how does homeopathy work?

delphi_ote · May 11, 2005

delphi_ote said:
If you're so smart, how does homeopathy work?

Uh... it doesn't. The most basic understanding of solutions will tell anyone it's just water.

How homeopathy does work? - 4 Years of DHMS course.

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