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Germany - Pegida

It's just hilarious how the non-existent moderate Islam keeps dying and the Islamic medieval rationalism that recognized the universality of knowledge continues to be declared a heresy..." and you folks don't understand that you are losing the argument with your own evidence.

The "Islamic medieval rationalism that recognized the universality of knowledge" btw saved us most of what we know about the ancient Egyptians and Greeks because those texts were saved by Muslims from the religious rage of the Crusaders. Look it up.


I don't need to, I already know this. However, it was 800 years ago and that just goes to show how far they have fallen since leading the world in Astronomy and the Sciences of the time. If you spent more time actually reading about it, and less time criticising books you obviously haven't actually read, you would have realised this, because the scenario you outline is well explained therein.
 
I don't need to, I already know this. However, it was 800 years ago and that just goes to show how far they have fallen since leading the world in Astronomy and the Sciences of the time. If you spent more time actually reading about it, and less time criticising books you obviously haven't actually read, you would have realised this, because the scenario you outline is well explained therein.


Fine then, but actually, the pamphlet I posted is vastly superior at "enlightenment" to any book you raise if that book is in line with your previous argumentation that Islam as such has anything to do with the effects we see today.
 
Well I can take the word of some Neville Nobody on an internet forum, whose only supporting evidence is more of their own Neville Nobody posts,

Actually, my supporting evidence was an academic article in the scholarly journal Islamic Law and Society, and a rather detailed post which shows just how laughable your statement that Reilly has "probably forgotten more about Islam and its history than the combined intelligentsia on this forum know".

or I can take the word of some of the planet's leading analysts of Islam...

You could, but it seems you haven't.



He's hardly a "leading analyst of Islam". He's a conspiraloon writing for, shocker of shockers, Daniel Pipes' pet Islam-hating project. Nobody outside of the Sean Hannity crowd takes him seriously.



You don't even cite this to a person, much less a "leading analyst of Islam", just to some right-wing thinktank as a whole. A Google search returned nothing but the equally-anonymous publisher blurbs for the book at sellers like Amazon.



"Barry Cooper, a fourth generation Albertan, was educated at Shawnigan Lake School, the University of British Columbia and Duke University, where he received his doctorate in 1969. He taught at Bishop's University, McGill, and York University before coming to the University of Calgary in 1981. For the past twenty-five years he has studied western political philosophy, both classical and contemporary. Much of his teaching has focused on Greek political philosophy whereas his publications have been chiefly in the area of contemporary French and German political philosophy. Over the years he has spent considerable time in both countries, teaching and doing research. Cooper's other area of continuing interest has been Canadian politics and public policy. Here he has brought the insights of political philosophers to bear on contemporary issues, including the place of technology and the media in Canada, the on-going debate over the constitutional status of Quebec, and the precarious status of Canadian defence and security."

And it's posted at a site "dedicated to the renewal of classical political thought as exemplified in its contemporary form by the writings of" this guy, best known these days as the source of the catchphrase "Don't immanentize the eschaton!"

This is one of "the planet's leading analysts of Islam"? You have some rather eclectic criteria.


Hey, finally someone who's an actual academic who has written reasonably well received books on a relevant subject, though a professor of international relations rather than a scholar of Islam. And the quote you cite has nothing to do with Reilly - it's from a book published two years before his was.


Again, with the generic link. At the very least you could have linked directly to his article. And, as with Dr. Tibi's quote, it has nothing whatsoever to do with Reilly's book. And he's not an "analyst of Islam", but an Indian Muslim reformer who in that article is actually criticising the various revivalist movements of the last few centuries (particularly the 20th-Century Islamism of Sayyid Qutb, Abul Ala Maududi, and Amin Ahsan Islahi), which he argues have held Islam back.

Ironically, his particular ideas for the "reinvention of the Muslim mind" are exactly the sort of thing metacristi has ruled impossible; the full context of the quote you cite reads (with emphasis added) "Those eager to make a new beginning must accept beforehand that the traditional mind will lead them to nowhere. A new Muslim mind is the minimum to start with. Without reactivating our brains we would even fall short of realising in full the nature and magnitude of our malaise. The Quranic exhortations to look, think, reflect and visualise (nazar, tafakkur, ta’aqqul and tadabbur) can empower us with a confident and enlightened mind which may accede to the fact that the 21st century issues have not been settled by the fuqaha of the past and the eternal light of revelation can guide us the same way as it did the great fuqaha of the past."

I know who I choose to listen to!

Yes, I see that.
 
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Hey, finally someone who's an actual academic who has written reasonably well received books on a relevant subject, though a professor of international relations rather than a scholar of Islam. And the quote you cite has nothing to do with Reilly - it's from a book published two years before his was.
The quote smartcooky gave was actually Reilly's book quoting Prof. Bassam Tibi, according to this review. And what's on the ellipsis? Ever since Norman Finkelstein uncovered that Alan Dershowitz in "A Case for Israel" quoted Mark Twain (straight copied from Joan Peters' From Time Immemorial) with an ellipsis spanning several hundred pages, I've become a bit wary about them. Especially when it's a subject where people have an axe to grind.

I also have to wonder about the credentials of the author himself. His page at the AFPC does not list anything whatsoever that hints at any expertise in Islam. It does not even mention what he studied at Georgetown and Claremont.
 
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The quote smartcooky gave was actually Reilly's book quoting Prof. Bassam Tibi, according to this review.

Good catch. :)

And what's on the ellipsis? Ever since Norman Finkelstein uncovered that Alan Dershowitz in "A Case for Israel" quoted Mark Twain (straight copied from Joan Peters' From Time Immemorial) with an ellipsis spanning several hundred pages, I've become a bit wary about them. Especially when it's a subject where people have an axe to grind.

According to Professor Tibi's book, Islam's Predicament with Modernity: Religious Reform and Cultural Change, the unadulterated quote reads "If that Islamic medieval rationalism that recognised the universality of knowledge continues to be declared a heresy, and if authenticity is narrowed down to a polarization of self and others, then Muslims in the twenty-first century will continue to be unsuccessful in embarking on modernity," addressing what he says is considered "authentic" in Islam, in the chapter of his book called "Authenticity and cultural legacy".

I also have to wonder about the credentials of the author himself. His page at the AFPC does not list anything whatsoever that hints at any expertise in Islam. It does not even mention what he studied at Georgetown and Claremont.

Reilly himself has no credentials, and is simply a conservative Catholic polemicist who has so little credibility that he'd been reduced to promoting his book on crazed evangelical Christian conspiraloon websites like World Net Daily.
 
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...
Even worse, as greater numbers of Muslims move to the west, they inevitably bring with them the radical elements of their religion, just as Italian immigrants to the USA brought with them the Cosa Nostra, Eastern European and Russian immigrants brought the Bratva and Chinese immigrants brought with them the Triads....

With the undeniable threat of neonazi KKK terrorists with white anglosaxon protestant heritage, I am sure you protest with as much fervor the immigration of anglosaxons to the USA, right? Better to deport the 3rd-generation Italians and Chinese, eh?
 
Pegida is the right's Occupy movement.

They think they think alike, because they have not yet hammered out what they stand for.
A consequence of this is that whatever this movement is, it will shift to an increasingly dogmatic, stupid position as happens to Greenpeace and PETA.

It is up to politicians to listen and capitalise on the moderate Pegida sympathisers who just want a debate about immigration, or are concerned about the influx of Islam and its values. Then a proper political program should separate the racist from the moderates.

Aletrnativen Fur Deutchland ( a new conservative party) apparently considered connecting with the Pegida crowd, but upon reflexion didn't want be associated with them out of fear being tainted by it's Neo-Nazi types.

They should reconsider. There is genuine discontent, and just labelling people racists just isn't going to make it go away. It needs a voice via rational actors, or it will be capitalised on by some proto-Nazi party in the near future.

Better let democracy do it's job and steal the thunder of the fascists.
 
Pegida is the right's Occupy movement.

They think they think alike, because they have not yet hammered out what they stand for.
...
Aletrnativen Fur Deutchland ( a new conservative party) apparently considered connecting with the Pegida crowd, but upon reflexion didn't want be associated with them out of fear being tainted by it's Neo-Nazi types.
...

That's "Alternative für Deutschland" (AfD; Alternative for Germany), a new political party that made into the first state parliaments already. Usually described as "right-populistic", I think it's base is not unlike what you said above - it isn't entirely clear what they stand for (In my view, they are predominantly against certain developments and want to roll back to some former status quo; paleo-conservatives? Some overlap of ideas with libertarianism, too).
Because of this, the party is very much divided still over whether to connect with Pegida or to stay away. There is certainly some overlap into nationalistic territory. It will break their neck sooner or later.
 
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That's "Alternative für Deutschland" (AfD; Alternative for Germany), a new political party that made into the first state parliaments already. Usually described as "right-populistic", I think it's base is not unlike what you said above - it isn't entirely clear what they stand for (In my view, they are predominantly against certain developments and want to roll back to some former status quo; paleo-conservatives? Some overlap of ideas with libertarianism, too).
Because of this, the party is very much divided still over whether to connect with Pegida or to stay away. There is certainly some overlap into nationalistic territory. It will break their neck sooner or later.

The only thing known for sure about AfD is that they're Anti-EU. Everything else, including exactly what part of EU-policy they're against, depends strongly on who of them is interviewed by whom.
 
Wonder if he is a distant relation of Michelle Bachmann,American Right Wing nutjob. Might run in the family......

It's a bit back in the thread, but I just had to throw some trivia out there. Michelle Bachmann is of Norwegian ancestry.
 
Maybe it's just me but I thought the picture Wikiislam use to illustrate their wife beating page (Linked by Metacristi upthread) had a definite erotic S&M vibe to it.
Well van Gogh deliberately eroticised the portrayals in Submission.

Actually, my supporting evidence was an academic article in the scholarly journal Islamic Law and Society, and a rather detailed post which shows just how laughable your statement that Reilly has "probably forgotten more about Islam and its history than the combined intelligentsia on this forum know".
<snipped for brevity and nested quotes>
Very well done.
 
That's "Alternative für Deutschland" (AfD; Alternative for Germany), a new political party that made into the first state parliaments already. Usually described as "right-populistic", I think it's base is not unlike what you said above - it isn't entirely clear what they stand for (In my view, they are predominantly against certain developments and want to roll back to some former status quo; paleo-conservatives? Some overlap of ideas with libertarianism, too).
Because of this, the party is very much divided still over whether to connect with Pegida or to stay away. There is certainly some overlap into nationalistic territory. It will break their neck sooner or later.

This is true of all these right-populist movements.

Wilders, UKIP, etc. Either they do not dare to formulate what they actually want to say, or they have no solutions and just ride the wave of discontent for as long as they can.

No matter how much I share that discontent on some points, I could never vote for such an empty vessel that mostly consists mental midgets who are just policy failures waiting to happen.

I'm not going to let my country be run into the ground, just so that I can spite a bunch of politically correct twits and fossilised EU bureaucrats.
 
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In the news on Pegida:

After their speaker and most recent public face, Kathrin Oertel, and four other leader stepped down from the organization team, they now announce that they will form a new assossiation and organize their own demonstrations. The ne group is to be called "Bewegung für direkte Demokratie in Europa" (Movement for direct Democracy in Europe) and apparently is resolved on dropping the anti-islamisation rhetoric.

This means that in ten days' time, there could be two demonstations of the right-populistic kind in Dresden. Will be interesting to see how the counter-demonstrators react... A nightmare for local police! :D

Meanwhile, Bachmann, who apparently is still in control of the more extreme right-wing Pegida remains, and, importantly, of the Facebook page, embraces Legida, the more violent-prone Leipzig sibling,


spiegel-online, the website of the weekly news magazine "Der Spiegel" comments (original emphasis):
spiegel-online said:
Zerwürfnis in Dresden: Pegida schafft sich ab
...
Das Organisationsteam ist von zwölf auf fünf geschrumpft. Nach dem Skandal um Lutz Bachmann hat Pegida zum zweiten Mal binnen einer Woche das Gesicht verloren.
...
Pegidas Lebenslüge lautet, man müsse nur das Interesse des Volkes berücksichtigen. Dass aber nicht einmal eine Truppe aus zwölf Bekannten dasselbe Interesse hat, haben sie nun unter Beweis gestellt. Sie wollten konkret werden, konnten es aber nicht. Weil das Konkrete die Dresdner Wutbürger auch nicht interessierte, und weil sie selbst nicht wussten wie.
...
Viele Pegida-Gegner ... [w]ie der Vizekanzler Sigmar Gabriel ... wollen natürlich immer schon gewusst haben, dass sich der Spuk über kurz oder lang erledigen würde.

Sie übersehen allerdings ein paar Dinge: Das, was Bachmann, Oertel und Co. allwöchentlich im Tonfall der Beleidigten vortrugen, wird ganz ähnlich an Tausenden Stammtischen beklagt. Der Hass auf Ausländer, das Unbehagen darüber, wie sich Deutschland ändert, die Verachtung für die da oben, das alles bleibt.
Translation:
"Discord in Dresden: Pegida gets rid of itself
...
The organisation team has shrunk from twelve to five people. After the scandal around Lutz Bachmann, Pegida has for the second time within a week lost its face.
...
Pegida's life lie is, one would simply have to consider the interest of the people. But they proved that not even a bunch of twelve acquantances share the same interest. They wanted to become more specific, but couldn't. Because the specifics didn't interest Dresden's rage-citizens, either, because the didn't know themselves how.
...
Many Pegida-opponents ... uch as vice-chancellor Sigmar Gabriel ... of course pretend they had always known that the phantom would take care of itself sooner or later.

They overlook however a few thing: What Bachmann, Oertel and Co. brought forward week after week with insulted cadence is still lamented very similarly in thousands of pubs. Hatred of foreigners, discomfort with how Germany changes, contempt for those on top, all this stays."
 
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Good catch. :)
I found it while I was checking out his sources too. When I saw your take down, there was nothing left for me to say.

According to Professor Tibi's book, Islam's Predicament with Modernity: Religious Reform and Cultural Change, the unadulterated quote reads "If that Islamic medieval rationalism that recognised the universality of knowledge continues to be declared a heresy, and if authenticity is narrowed down to a polarization of self and others, then Muslims in the twenty-first century will continue to be unsuccessful in embarking on modernity," addressing what he says is considered "authentic" in Islam, in the chapter of his book called "Authenticity and cultural legacy".
Thank you. I'm confused what the left-out sentence means; what is "polarization of self and others"? Stressing differences between Islam and "the rest of the world"?

Reilly himself has no credentials, and is simply a conservative Catholic polemicist who has so little credibility that he'd been reduced to promoting his book on crazed evangelical Christian conspiraloon websites like World Net Daily.
I already got the "Catholic polemicist" part from Prof. Frank Griffel's review, e.g.:
His book comes with a foreword and no fewer than ten endorsements by colleagues of Reilly, which praise his erudition, insight and ability to analyze and explain the Muslim mind. I wonder whether they were all aware that the book they endorsed is, in fact, a Catholic refutation of Ash'arite Muslim theology, the leading branch of Sunni theology.
I also thought this part interesting to quote:
Reilly conceals from his readers that most Jihadists are not Ash'arites but rather Salafists, who reject Ash'arism. The intellectual ideal of people such as Usama bin Ladin is not al-Ghazālī but Ibn Taymiyya (d. 1328), and Ibn Taymiyyaa argued against occasionalism and fatalism and stressed moral responsibility. One could even make the point that Jihadism is much more a successor of Mu'tazilite moralism than it is of any element in Ash'arite thinking.
At the end, Reilly's book is war literature, telling us in eloquent and often learned words why the way we think is right and our enemy's way wrong.
Frank Griffel is professor in Islamic Studies at Yale.
 
The only thing known for sure about AfD is that they're Anti-EU. Everything else, including exactly what part of EU-policy they're against, depends strongly on who of them is interviewed by whom.
Their chairwoman in Saxony, Frauke Petry, may have called their hand on this issue. The Pegida board asked her for advice how to react to Bachmann's outing as a Hitler fanboy. This came out when Petry sent out a press statement about Bachmann's resignation two hourse before Pegida themselves did so. (link in Spiegel.DE). And now th AfD federal deputy chair calls for an immigration stop from the Middle East (link in Spiegel.DE).

Another interesting tidbit from that article is that Oertel claims that Bachmann is still active in Pegida behind the scenes, and that particularly, his circle controls Pegiada's Facebook page.

After their speaker and most recent public face, Kathrin Oertel, and four other leader stepped down from the organization team, they now announce that they will form a new assossiation and organize their own demonstrations. The ne group is to be called "Bewegung für direkte Demokratie in Europa" (Movement for direct Democracy in Europe) and apparently is resolved on dropping the anti-islamisation rhetoric.
I'm totally confused. Their association was specifically founded "against Islamization of the Occident" - that's right there in their name. And now it's something different?

And how do you think to attain "direct democracy" in a country with 60 million voters? :boggled:

This means that in ten days' time, there could be two demonstations of the right-populistic kind in Dresden. Will be interesting to see how the counter-demonstrators react... A nightmare for local police! :D
Two more splits before they run out of weekdays to rally. :) (I suppose Germans won't go out to rally on Feierabend (Friday evening)).

Meanwhile, Bachmann, who apparently is still in control of the more extreme right-wing Pegida remains, and, importantly, of the Facebook page, embraces Legida, the more violent-prone Leipzig sibling,
Aha, you added that later. :)
 
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Thank you. I'm confused what the left-out sentence means; what is "polarization of self and others"? Stressing differences between Islam and "the rest of the world"?

Yes. Tibi is referring to the separation of "us" (the ummah) from "them" (the West) and the assertion made by both Islamists and people like metacristi that one can either be a Western secular moderate, or an "authentic" Muslim, but not both. In the chapter that the quote is taken from, Tibi asks "Are authenticity and modernism at odds?", and the rest of the chapter is his attempt to answer that question.

I also thought this part interesting to quote:

That is, in fact, the same point I was making in that big post from June that I linked to upthread. :)
 
I looked up this Robert R. Reilly guy. I can't wait to get his new book, Making Gay Okay: How Rationalizing Homosexual Behavior Is Changing Everything, Ignatius Press, 2014.

I suppose that when smartcooky says Robert R. Reilly has forgotten so much about Islam it is because he was obsessing over Teh Gey!
 
I looked up this Robert R. Reilly guy. I can't wait to get his new book, Making Gay Okay: How Rationalizing Homosexual Behavior Is Changing Everything, Ignatius Press, 2014.

Hey, something else that he and fundamentalist Muslims have in common!
 
I looked up this Robert R. Reilly guy. I can't wait to get his new book, Making Gay Okay: How Rationalizing Homosexual Behavior Is Changing Everything, Ignatius Press, 2014.

I thought his name sounded familiar.

I suppose that when smartcooky says Robert R. Reilly has forgotten so much about Islam it is because he was obsessing over Teh Gey!

An odd problem to obsess about, because one can so easily make it go away:

"Homosexuals who do want to change have a significant rate of success in changing with the right therapies. It is a sign of how far the rationalization for homosexual misbehavior has gone that two states now forbid therapists from treating teenage homosexuals who want to change their orientation. That’s like telling a teenager that if they injured their eye, they can’t go to an ophthalmologist! The denial of reality has gone that far."

That is from an interview with Reilly, where he also explains how it really all started with contraception being made legal. Not that he has a problem with homosexuals as such. He runs into their kind a lot, he says, having "worked in the arts for almost forty years". And oh yes, at the end of the interview he explains why his book got almost no reviews, not even from conservative publications. They're all afraid of "the homosexual mafia".

Clearly, a towering intellect, and exactly the kind of person I'd turn to for an objective, scholarly assessment of Islam. Not a Roman Catholic fundamentalist obsessed with sodomy and Muslims at all.

He's also apparently published stuff about classical music. I'm too afraid to go and look what his views in that field might be.
 
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Hey, something else that he and fundamentalist Muslims have in common!

That is always the curious thing about many of these islamophobic rightwingers. When it comes down to actual policies, their views seem to fit right in with fundamentalist Islam. Women's rights, gay rights, punishment for criminals, drug use, etc. - just what is it that they disagree upon?

(I have to make an exception for Geert Wilders here. He has regularly brought up the problem many Muslims have with gay rights as a fundamental point of conflict. A view that is often hard for his allies from outside the Netherlands to negotiate their way around.)
 
He's also apparently published stuff about classical music. I'm too afraid to go and look what his views in that field might be.

"The Music of the Spheres, or the Metaphysics of Music"

Despite the popular Romantic conception of creative artists as inspired madmen, composers are not idiots savants, distilling their musical inspiration from the ether. Rather, in their creative work they respond and give voice to certain metaphysical visions. Most composers speak explicitly in philosophical terms about the nature of the reality that they try to reflect. When the forms of musical expression change radically, it is always because the underlying metaphysical grasp of reality has changed as well. Music is, in a way, the sound of metaphysics, or metaphysics in sound.

Music in the Western world was shaped by a shared conception of reality so profound that it endured for some twenty-five hundred years. As a result, the means of music remained essentially the same—at least to the extent that what was called music could always have been recognized as such by its forbearers, as much as they might have disapproved of its specific style. But by the early twentieth century, this was no longer true. Music was re-conceptualized so completely that it could no longer be experienced as music, i.e. with melody, harmony, and rhythm. This catastrophic rupture, expressed especially in the works of Arnold Schoenberg and John Cage, is often celebrated as just another change in the techniques of music, a further point along the parade of progress in the arts. It was, however, a reflection of a deeper metaphysical divide that severed the composer from any meaningful contact with external reality.

[...]

Philosophical propositions have a very direct and profound impact upon composers and what they do. John Adams, one of the most popular American composers today, said that he had “learned in college that tonality died somewhere around the time that Nietzsche’s God died, and I believed it.” The connection is quite compelling. At the same time God disappears, so does the intelligible order in creation. If there is no God, Nature no longer serves as a reflection of its Creator. If you lose the Logosof St. Clement, you also lose the ratio (logos) of Pythagoras. Nature is stripped of its normative power. This is just as much a problem for music as it is for philosophy.

The systematic fragmentation of music was the logical working out of the premise that music is not governed by mathematical relationships and laws that inhere in the structure of a hierarchical and ordered universe, but is wholly constructed by man and therefore essentially without limits or definition. Tonality, as the pre-existing principle of order in the world of sound, goes the same way as the objective moral order. So how does one organize the mess that is left once God departs? If there is no pre-existing intelligible order to go out to and apprehend, and to search through for what lies beyond it—which is the Creator—what then is music supposed to express? If external order does not exist, then music turns inward. It collapses in on itself and becomes an obsession with technique. Any ordering of things, musical or otherwise, becomes simply the whim of man’s will.

[...]

It is clear from Adams that the recovery of tonality and key structure is as closely related to spiritual recovery as its loss was related to spiritual loss. The destruction of tonality was thought to be historically necessary and therefore “determined.” It is no mistake that the recovery of tonality and its expressive powers should be accompanied by the notion of grace. The very possibility of grace, of the unmerited intervention of God’s love, destroys the ideology of historical determinism, whether it be expressed in music or in any other way. The possibility of grace fatally ruptures the self-enclosed world of “historically determined forces” and opens it up to the transcendent. That opening restores the freedom and full range of man’s creativity.

He certainly seems like the right guy to trust when it comes to criticising the lack of valuation of Human Reason and the reliance on "semi-theological hybrids" in the thinking of modern adherents of religion.
 
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I looked up this Robert R. Reilly guy. I can't wait to get his new book, Making Gay Okay: How Rationalizing Homosexual Behavior Is Changing Everything, Ignatius Press, 2014.

I suppose that when smartcooky says Robert R. Reilly has forgotten so much about Islam it is because he was obsessing over Teh Gey!

Any chance I cold take Reilly seriously has gone out the window.
 
I looked up this Robert R. Reilly guy. I can't wait to get his new book, Making Gay Okay: How Rationalizing Homosexual Behavior Is Changing Everything, Ignatius Press, 2014.

I suppose that when smartcooky says Robert R. Reilly has forgotten so much about Islam it is because he was obsessing over Teh Gey!
Wow. In an interview, Reilly explains that gays are worse than murderers. From RightWingWatch:
After the person murders someone or looks at pornography, they come to see that what they did was actually wrong, they can’t excuse it and moral order is restored and they’re contrite for having done so. But what if you organize your life around something that is wrong? Then you must construct a more permanent rationalization that prevents your conscience from returning to tell you that you’ve just done something profoundly wrong.

This is exactly the case with active homosexuals, now extended to homosexual marriage, where they have to say that wrong is right and not only is it right but it’s normative, morally normative, so we need to teach it, we need to bless it in marriages, we need to ordain it in churches and we need to enforce it in our laws. And that is what is happening.
Says enough.

That is always the curious thing about many of these islamophobic rightwingers. When it comes down to actual policies, their views seem to fit right in with fundamentalist Islam. Women's rights, gay rights, punishment for criminals, drug use, etc. - just what is it that they disagree upon?
The right flavour of God to believe in?

(I have to make an exception for Geert Wilders here. He has regularly brought up the problem many Muslims have with gay rights as a fundamental point of conflict. A view that is often hard for his allies from outside the Netherlands to negotiate their way around.)
Indeed, but while Wilders generally portrays a secular outlook, he has also advocated for acknowledging the "Judeo-Christian heritage" in the Dutch constitution.

"The Music of the Spheres, or the Metaphysics of Music"
He certainly seems like the right guy to trust when it comes to criticising the lack of valuation of Human Reason and the reliance on "semi-theological hybrids" in the thinking of modern adherents of religion.
I'm left thinking after reading that load of tosh whether he's really obsessed with music, or that it's just a roundabout way of attacking Enlightment values in the Rousseau passage.
 
...
I'm totally confused. Their association was specifically founded "against Islamization of the Occident" - that's right there in their name. And now it's something different?
Yup! :)
I think perhaps they simply wised up and realized what most everybody else suspected from the get-go: That islamophobia was merely a valve for folks with unspecific "German angst" to vent - a target of opportunity in a state with an estimated muslim population of 0.4% - much much less than the national average. Many no doubt were protesting against imagined grievances.

And how do you think to attain "direct democracy" in a country with 60 million voters? :boggled:
Well, the Swiss do it. You may say Switzerland has only one tenth the population, but why should that make a serious difference? You wouldn't argue that parliamentary democracy can't work in country like India? Can you imagine Swiss-style direct democracy in the Netherlands or Belgium?
Of course the Swiss have a long history with this - it is a distinct part of their culture. Paleo-conservatives should not advocate direct democracy in Germany, it's alien to our culture :D
 
I haven't been keeping up with the thread and this may have already been properly covered but I noticed the popular meme of "we owe so much knowledge and so many scientific advancements to the Islamic world" came up, so I just wanted to point out that this is largely a myth.

Muslims were conquering Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians who in many cases were allowed to continue these sorts of advancements as conquered people (at least for a time) and their achievements have since been laid claim to by Muslims and those who wish to give the Muslim world things they can be proud about. Many of the accomplishments actually belong to the Assyrians they conquered.

In many cases these people were retroactively given Arabic names to help in this process of laying claim to conquered peoples' accomplishments. Remind you of the Mormons baptizing dead people?

One good resource which goes into this somewhat is the book God's Battalions by Rodney Stark, which also points out that the crusades were a reaction to Muslim aggression and incursion.
 
I'm left thinking after reading that load of tosh whether he's really obsessed with music, or that it's just a roundabout way of attacking Enlightment values in the Rousseau passage.

It's pretty clearly the latter. He pays a lot of lip service to the value of Enlightenment rationalism, but the instant human beings actually use that rationalism to disregard God and His perfectly ordered moral universe as the divine creation of Christ-as-Logos, then it's nothing short of catastrophic to him, because he cannot conceive of a functional universe in which God does not exist and no longer is seen to have dominion over everything.

Which, of course, makes his book about the "Muslim mind" an amusingly ironic and severe case of projection on his part.
 
I haven't been keeping up with the thread and this may have already been properly covered but I noticed the popular meme of "we owe so much knowledge and so many scientific advancements to the Islamic world" came up, so I just wanted to point out that this is largely a myth.

Muslims were conquering Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians who in many cases were allowed to continue these sorts of advancements as conquered people (at least for a time) and their achievements have since been laid claim to by Muslims and those who wish to give the Muslim world things they can be proud about. Many of the accomplishments actually belong to the Assyrians they conquered.

In many cases these people were retroactively given Arabic names to help in this process of laying claim to conquered peoples' accomplishments. Remind you of the Mormons baptizing dead people?

Perhaps you'd like to explain, oh, say, this guy, then?

One good resource which goes into this somewhat is the book God's Battalions by Rodney Stark, which also points out that the crusades were a reaction to Muslim aggression and incursion.

Uh huh.

EDIT: And what is it with citing non-historian Christian polemicists as "experts" on Islam and Islamic history? I see that Stark is also the author of this book:

Skeptics such as Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett have just lost their monopoly on the topic of religious evolution. Only a believer, Stark asserts, can fathom the origins and subsequent unfolding of the world's great faiths. In this wide-ranging investigation, Stark detects sacred reality—not pious deception—at the heart of transcendent beliefs shared by Aborigines and Anglicans. In their myths of the high gods, Stark contends, early tribal peoples glimpsed divine truths obscured in later civilizations when pharaohs and emperors lent government support to temple priesthoods more interested in maintaining a comfortable lifestyle than in serving God. The eventual emergence of a religious marketplace in ancient Rome opened a wide range of metaphysical options. Yet in a culture of religious pluralism, the insistent claims of tightly knit communities of Jews and Christians appeared threatening to Roman leaders, who defended the status quo by persecuting adherents to these unsettlingly intense faiths. Yet it is in these revelatory faiths—and not the meditative religions of Eastern Asia—that Stark discerns the fullest manifestation of God. Some readers will resist Stark's comparative judgments; others will dispute his religious interpretation of modern science. But serious students of religion will recognize this as an essential sourcebook.

Yeesh.
 
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Perhaps you'd like to explain, oh, say, this guy, then?



Uh huh.

EDIT: And what is it with citing non-historian Christian polemicists as "experts" on Islam and Islamic history? I see that Stark is also the author of this book:



Yeesh.



You think God's Batallions is bad,just check out "The Poltically Incorrect Guide To the Crusades". Makes Stark look like a moderate.
Wow, one of our resident bigots cites a worthless work of history. Whatta surprise.
As somebody who is heavily into military history, I laughed out loud when reading Stark's military analysis. THose supercrosss bows did not help the Crusaders much at Hattin.....
 
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So you guys don't think there's any merit at all to the argument that a lot of accomplishments which are credited to Islamic civilization are actually more properly attributed to conquered peoples living under them?
 
So you guys don't think there's any merit at all to the argument that a lot of accomplishments which are credited to Islamic civilization are actually more properly attributed to conquered peoples living under them?

And you advocacy of this could have nothing to do with the conquered being mainly White Europeans and the Muslims being Arabs, coud it?
 
Read this whole thread, and all the other threads here about Islamic terrorism, and you'll see for yourself. Posters who criticise Islam get labelled as bigots and/or racists

ETA. If that's not enough for you

http://www.atheistrepublic.com/blog/arminnavabi/islamophobia-oxymoron-intimidate-critics-islam

In a democracy we believe that people have the right to express their opinion so long as it doesn't incite violence. The fact that some people find those opinions "offensive" is not a good enough reason to silence them. If those opinions are labelled as bigotry, then we have a problem because simply by doing so, we create a situation where certain opinions become less acceptable to express.

A poster highly critical to Islam was banned after that criticism of Islam has been very muted here.
 
It's just hilarious how the non-existent moderate Islam keeps dying and the Islamic medieval rationalism that recognized the universality of knowledge continues to be declared a heresy..." and you folks don't understand that you are losing the argument with your own evidence.

The "Islamic medieval rationalism that recognized the universality of knowledge" btw saved us most of what we know about the ancient Egyptians and Greeks because those texts were saved by Muslims from the religious rage of the Crusaders. Look it up.


That rationalism was running against the tide of Islamic thought and in some important respects still does (read Reilly's book, very good to understand why the muslim mind is still closed at the average level). As I wrote elsewhere:

The islamic world had its great intellectuals and even some discoveries but it lacked the healthy worldviews which to let the forces of progress develop further and evolve into something even more progressive. No one should be surprised that the existence of some progressive islamic thinkers in the Middle Ages never lead to an islamic Enlightenment or a Scientific Revolution. These progressive thinkers run indeed against the tide of islamic thought and religious education (which definitely put severe brakes to progress, very few 'de facto' quasi-secular places in islam, where the forces of progress to develop further along history: such as universities and autonomous corporations). As Ibrahim al Buleihi put it well (see http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/3264.htm , 'Western civilization has liberated mankind'): " these [achievements] are not of our own making, and those exceptional individuals were not the product of Arab culture, but rather Greek culture. They are outside our cultural mainstream and we treated them as though they were foreign elements.


All this so called 'golden age of islam' is largely a myth*, on a par with the scenario in which the Islamic world conquer the West now and our successors in the far future talk about the 'second golden age of islam'. I'm afraid the 'golden age' is nothing more than the prolonged twilight of the classical civilizations in the middle East.

Finally the merit for laying the foundation for science and the modern world belong almost in its entirety to the medieval western Europeans themselves who not only promoted intellectual curiosity but were capable to learn even from their arch enemies, the muslims (at a time when the Islamic world rejected everything coming from infidels, denied the existence of laws of nature and even labelled the 'saved', largely by non muslims, heritage of the ancients as 'foreign sciences').


*owing the bulk to:

1. the happy fact that Islamic theology was not fully formed at the moment of Islamic conquests

2. the first muslims, with a civilization eons behind, were forced to rely on non muslims to rule their empire, borrowing from them along the period before the crystallization of Islamic theology when the strong contempt against non muslims won decisively

3. non muslims living under muslim rule, Assyrians and altri

4. muslims, non arabs, still writing in the vein of their pre-Islamic civilizations (a disproportional part of the discoveries was made by those of Iranian origins for example)
 
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In the news on Pegida:

After their speaker and most recent public face, Kathrin Oertel, and four other leader stepped down from the organization team, they now announce that they will form a new assossiation and organize their own demonstrations. The ne group is to be called "Bewegung für direkte Demokratie in Europa" (Movement for direct Democracy in Europe) and apparently is resolved on dropping the anti-islamisation rhetoric.

"BefüdDie"? Like, befuddled?

;) :D

Because that's how I feel now about them. I was worried about some of there right-wing-ness-moving-towards-Nazi, but now there's just amused irritation.
 
So you guys don't think there's any merit at all to the argument that a lot of accomplishments which are credited to Islamic civilization are actually more properly attributed to conquered peoples living under them?

I don't see that this question is of any importance at all to either Pegida supporters or opponents. The differences are more about muslims and "islam" today. Neither 3rd-generation Turkish immigrants nor residents of old German pedigree nor Syrian refugees nowadays are well read in Aristotle, Herodotus or Platon.
 
Childlike Empress said:
It's just hilarious how the non-existent moderate Islam keeps dying


Well there is a principle of Charity of which you may not have heard about but there is one nonetheless. The arguments of others which are not clear enough must be interpreted in their strongest sense. In this so called contradiction you lumped together the meaning in the article about the quiet death of moderate islam I referred with what I propose, certified by history as giving results by the way (where 'moderate' has the same meaning as IN THE WESTERN SENSE OF THE WORD, centred around the capacity to accept that the holy books are not infallible, and capacity to confront rather than reinterpret at least some passages that are hopeless). These 2 senses can very well not be equivalent (very likely) so yes there is no contradiction here.

Even if they are equivalent, but again one cannot establish that from that article, these people had always been a very small minority in islam so that they never had a real impact at the practical level. A moderate islam on a par with liberal Christianity (having also its impact) has still to be born. Anyways what is clear for all would be rational people is that that author is much closer to the western definition of the word than many of these so called 'moderates' of today. Unfortunately yes the Islamic world has severely regressed in the last 70 years. Finally confronting openly the inerrancy of the quran and the perfection of Muhammad may not be practical these days but at least admitting openly that there are violent and discriminatory parts of this religion which have to be tackled somehow is the lowest threshold at which the term moderation in the western sense can be applied (search in Google 'Don't gloss over the violent texts' by Tawfiq Hamid for an example).
 
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The arguments of others which are not clear enough must be interpreted in their strongest sense. In this so called contradiction you lumped together the meaning in the article about the quiet death of moderate islam I referred with what I propose, certified by history as giving results by the way (where 'moderate' has the same meaning as IN THE WESTERN SENSE OF THE WORD, centred around the capacity to accept that the holy books are not infallible, and capacity to confront rather than reinterpret at least some passages that are hopeless). These 2 senses can very well not be equivalent (very likely) so yes there is no contradiction here.

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say."
From an interview with Rev Dr. Francis H. Wade - Former Rector, St Alban's Episcopal Church in "Search for Noah's Ark", a National Geographic documentary first aired September 2006


Forget about Noah's Ark; There Was No Worldwide Flood. In order to even entertain the possibility of a worldwide flood, one has to bypass all laws of physics, exit the realm of science, and enter into the realm of the miraculous...
- From THIS his article by Dr. Robert R. Cargill - Archaeologist and Biblical Scholar. Asst Professor of Classics & Religious Studies specializing in archaeology & literature of 2nd Temple Judaism & early Christianity @ the University of Iowa


How can anyone seriously say that an Islamic cleric or scholar would be allowed the latitude and/or freedom of expression to call into question such basic tenets of the Qu'ran?

NOTE:
Previously I made the mistake of misquoting and misrepresenting certain individuals in support of a post. Some of the nitpicking member's of this forum's LAFI brigade managed to pull me up on that. This was sloppy research on my part, and I will not be making that particular mistake again.
The above quotes are thoroughly researched; there are no mistakes this time!
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