Hoagland's take on Mars images

Bubba

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Since it would greatly improve conditions on earth (petro issues) it'd be great if Hoagland's exotic energy technology claim (explained in this video) were true.

Or skip to 1:32:00 for his interpretations of other things he finds in NASA Mars imagery.

A few:

1:32:47 "Pyramid"

1:41:20 "A building on top of a large structure"

1:45:30 "tubular piece of machine junk"

1:56:23 "more stuff"

2:05:22 "a shoe and a toy glider"

www.enterprisemission.com/videos.html
 
Hoagland's "looks like, therefore must be" argument is patently illogical. There are numerous resources debunking his claims. What did you do to investigate them before posting this?
 
Thank you Jay.

I see no need investigate as everyone already knows it is bunk. I post it mainly to point to the funny shaped rocks, in case anyone is interested. The pyramid is a pretty good fake.

It would be nice if he were right about advanced energy tech though.
 
I see no need investigate as everyone already knows it is bunk.

Ah, fair enough. But you post a lot of things that everyone already knows is bunk. Yet you seem to take it seriously. So it would do you well, next time, to say, "I don't believe this part of it, but I want to talk about it."

It would be nice if he were right about advanced energy tech though.

A lot of things would be nice. Hoagland fancies himself a forward thinker, futurist, whatever. But he is haunted by demons in the form of what I'd term an inferiority complex. Which is to say, he believes he should be given a lot more credit for his ideas than they actually merit. His beef with NASA is that he claims NASA stole one of his allegedly ground-breaking ideas, so he's had it in for them ever since. Therefore take everything he says about NASA with the understanding that he has an axe to grind.
 
So Hoagland also thinks the big bright spot on Ceres is a city? :D

Not that Hoagland thinking that surprises me at all.
 
Thank you Jay.

I see no need investigate as everyone already knows it is bunk. I post it mainly to point to the funny shaped rocks, in case anyone is interested. The pyramid is a pretty good fake.

It would be nice if he were right about advanced energy tech though.

In the 1979s one man found a potato in his garden that bore an amazing resemblance to Richard Nixon.

Fact is that our brains are very well wired to recognize shapes that have significance to our past. That is why we can see shapes in clouds, or Gothic images of Jesus or Mary Magdalene in window streaks or grilled cheese sandwiches.
For similar reasons a colon : and a closing parentheses ) together, are understood by humans to represent a smiling human face.
 
Ah, fair enough. But you post a lot of things that everyone already knows is bunk. Yet you seem to take it seriously. So it would do you well, next time, to say, "I don't believe this part of it, but I want to talk about it."



A lot of things would be nice. Hoagland fancies himself a forward thinker, futurist, whatever. But he is haunted by demons in the form of what I'd term an inferiority complex. Which is to say, he believes he should be given a lot more credit for his ideas than they actually merit. His beef with NASA is that he claims NASA stole one of his allegedly ground-breaking ideas, so he's had it in for them ever since. Therefore take everything he says about NASA with the understanding that he has an axe to grind.

Are you referring to the idea of putting that "from earthlings" message bearing plaque on the craft, voyager was it?
 
Are you referring to the idea of putting that "from earthlings" message bearing plaque on the craft, voyager was it?

More to do with Europa having liquid oceans, which Hoagland claims was his theory.

It is not.

https://www.math.washington.edu/~greenber/FaxBack.html

You should get a copy of 'Dark Mission', supposedly co-written with Mike Bara. Despite Hoagland's alleged co-authorship he is consistently referred to by name and always in glowing terms, fighting the good fight against NASA's bad guys boo hiss.

It is full of nonsense.
 
Are you referring to the idea of putting that "from earthlings" message bearing plaque on the craft, voyager was it?

No, to what threadworm identified above. He was a museum curator who had some success writing about space exploration. But when NASA refused to give him credit for originating the idea of water oceans on Europa (which he, in fact, did not originate), he pretty much set himself forever thereafter at odds with them, and has done his level best to insinuate that they are all different kinds of evil and deceptive.

Now NASA attracts a lot of criticism, a fair amount of it legitimate. I even criticize NASA, mostly for reasons having to do with its bureaucracy. So the fact that he criticizes NASA is not in itself cause for alarm. But the way in which he does it is comically bereft of practically anything of legitimate scientific or historical foundation. In addition to claiming credit for an idea that was not his, he's done some fairly remarkably outrageous things to try to amass the semblance of respect for him.

Basically, it seems as if the world doesn't recognize his vast genius, and so he's all butthurt about it. Can I say butthurt?
 
With Bubba's permission I'd like to take a small tangent. We've spoken about pareidolia, the tendency of human visual perception to "create" objects that are only hinted at by unrelated, indistinct features in what we actually see. This allows us to see the "face" on Mars, and generally explains most of the characterizations Bubba called out in his first post.

But it's a far richer phenomenon than simply seeing fluffy bunnies in clouds. It governs practically all the perceptual gymnastics that occur in the Cydonia complex. Especially with the older, indistinct photographs of the Face and various other features, it was very easy to characterize them in the gullible mind as necessarily artificial structures.

I won't go into tremendous detail, but I want to cover some categories. Pareidolia literally means the seeing of images of objects that are not there. But the unconscious processes that produce pareidolia manifest themselves in other ways too, that bubble up to the conscious level.

For example, we tend to want to "complete" images that are, in our way of thinking, only partially evident. This is how we get "Badge Man" in the Kennedy assassination. The five-sided pyramid at Cydonia was long argued to exhibit five perfectly flat facets. But even in the older photography, the facet at the two-to-four o'clock position (in the customary photo orientation) is clearly not flat, but concave and irregular, exactly as it would appear if formed by stereotypical geology processes.

You literally have to rub some Hoaglandites' noses in that photo to get them to see that no, all the faces of the "pyramid" are not smooth "artificial" constructs. They literally count five perfect faces, simply because four of them appeared that way in the older photography and their unconscious sense of "completion" required that fifth face to be. There is an aspect of wish-fulfillment in our visual preception system.

Similarly edges of the pyramid were subject to some astounding bits of conjecture. First, they were alleged to be perfectly straight. They aren't, of course, not even in the original photography. The argument goes that nature doesn't produce straight lines, therefore the pyramid had to be an artificial building. But the original photography shows deviations from straight, and newer photography clearly shows they aren't straight.

Predictably, the Hoaglandites finally admit the lines are only "almost perfectly straight." "Almost" perfect is not a thing, and nearly straight doesn't meet criteria for artificiality. In engineering we have well-defined, reliable, and useful methods for quantifying straightness. They can apply to both artificial straight lines (which, of course, are straight only to an achievable tolerance) and to nearly straight lines that appear in nature. And of course we see that the Cydonia's edges are no more straight than similarly occurring features on Earth.

Now in all fairness I have to take a tangent from my tangent to report that since the high resolution images of Cydonia came out, Hoagland and his ilk have pushed to the margin the "regularized" claims based on flat faces and "perfectly" straight lines. They still argue that the Cydonia pyramid is artificial, but they've swtched to identifying newly-revealed features on the mountain as the effects of various other artificial processes.

The "straight" and "flat" evaluations come from the same process that produces pareidolia. It seems we're more evolutionarily predisposed to see things that are "almost" something as if they were "fully" something. There's whole natural selection argument behind it, but that would be another post.

The final aspect of this is the angles the edges form. Hoagland and his followers evaluate these angles according to their relationship among themselves and to the rest of the Cydonia geology complex. Not only do the edges drop down to the desert floor in a way that roughly suggests a pentagon, the slopes of the faces also end abruptly at the desert floor to create a series of perimeter edges.

As usual, Hoaglandites argue that these straight perimeter edges and regular angular spacing of the radial edges argues strongly for an artificial construct. And as usual, this seems to be a pareidolic knee-jerk impression bolstered later by pseudo-cognitive justifications. Similarly, Hoagland writes about "perfect" hexagons and "perfect" triangles forming other features at Cydonia. He draws helpful lines over the orbital photography to emphasize where he thinks important lines are (omitting others, of course, that don't fit his characterization) and providing the viewer a truly regularized interpretation to mull over.

But the question is how "perfect" and regular the underlying features really are. In the pyramid, for example, only two out of the five faces actually produce a reasonably straight intersection with the surrounding desert floor. Hoaglandites note it's suspicious to see such an abrupt change from slope to floor without a gradual change in slope. But in fact the non-regular face exhibits just such a graduation. The facet anticlockwise-adjacent to it has a clearly-demarcated intersection with the floor, but it is not a straight line. Continuing anti-clockwise, the 10 o'clock to 12 o'clock facet intersects with the floor in a line that in no way continues the "perfect" pentagon. The 4 o'clock to 7 o'clock facet actually exhibits little if any shading variation due to the phase angle. Therefore the sharpness of the transition to floor cannot be studied. But because its bounding edges are close to the same length, the eye "draws" the connecting line via pareidolia.

It turns out there is only one abrupt, straight transition from face to floor in the Cydonia pyramid as discernible in objective measurement. The rest is simply invented by the eye and reinforced by Hoagland's line-drawing.

While some describe the pyramid and other features as "perfect" (i.e., a perfect pentagon), it clearly is not. The base of the implied pyramid can be regularized into five straight lines, it is not a regular pentagon. Nor do the allegedly radial edges meet at a discernible center. Pareidolia simply suggests that it's regular enough to be a "perfect" pentagon. This raises the question of how regular something has to be in order to be artificial. Concepts like "almost regular," "almost straight," and "almost perfect" simply ask the reader to ignore what may be entirely natural features and variations.

While the overall knee-jerk reactions to some of the objects seen at Cydonia is that they are artificial because they exhibit a degree of regularity and precision that we do not expect in nature, that impression does not hold up when we start applying methods designed to defeat pareidolia and the perception mechanisms related to it.
 
1:32:47 "Pyramid"

1:41:20 "A building on top of a large structure"

1:45:30 "tubular piece of machine junk"

1:56:23 "more stuff"

2:05:22 "a shoe and a toy glider"

Did anyone point out the giant WalMart symbol on Mars ? Looks like a smiley, so must be, right ?
 
With Bubba's permission I'd like to take a small tangent. We've spoken about pareidolia, the tendency of human visual perception to "create" objects that are only hinted at by unrelated, indistinct features in what we actually see. This allows us to see the "face" on Mars, and generally explains most of the characterizations Bubba called out in his first post.

But it's a far richer phenomenon than simply seeing fluffy bunnies in clouds.

It's essential, in fact. It leads us to see faces in... faces ! :)
 
It's essential, in fact. It leads us to see faces in... faces ! :)

Yes, and it predisposes us to see faces in things that aren't faces. Faces pose a special case in the study of perception because we so easily recognize the features of people we know. When considered via more objective measurements, these differences are very subtle. This is why facial recognition techniques have lagged behind other numerical detection techniques. It also leads to some pretty comical results in commercially available implementations such as in Google.
 
Tangent? Permission?
It seems invited by the thread title.

As if I could grant permission anyway...

Psst, Psst he was giving you the secret password you fool, now give him the right coded reply or we'll all in for the re-education video and minefield Jeopardy game again.
 
Similarly edges of the pyramid were subject to some astounding bits of conjecture. First, they were alleged to be perfectly straight. They aren't, of course, not even in the original photography. The argument goes that nature doesn't produce straight lines, therefore the pyramid had to be an artificial building. But the original photography shows deviations from straight, and newer photography clearly shows they aren't straight.

Could this also apply to the feature girdling Iapetus. Hoagland claims it is "artificial".

The striking thing is it seems to be three parallel ridges

excerpt :

...a topographic ridge that coincides almost exactly with the geographic equator. The ridge is conspicuous in the picture as an approximately 20-kilometer wide (12 miles) band that extends from the western (left) side of the disc almost to the day/night boundary on the right. On the left horizon, the peak of the ridge reaches at least 13 kilometers (8 miles) above the surrounding terrain. Along the roughly 1,300 kilometer (800 mile) length over which it can be traced in this picture, it remains almost exactly parallel to the equator within a couple of degrees. The physical origin of the ridge has yet to be explained. It is not yet clear whether the ridge is a mountain belt that has folded upward, or an extensional crack in the surface through which material from inside Iapetus erupted onto the surface and accumulated locally, forming the ridge.

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Iapetus_Images_01.html
 
Hoagland's pareidolia is one thing, but his 'work' goes way beyond that.

He is using our willingness to see faces to allege massive and sinister underpinnings to the US space programme, with secret Masonic influences and occult religious ceremonials (he goes on and on about Aldrin's small religious observance in Apollo 11 as if it was the entire point of the mission).

When presented with undeniable evidence that the 'Cydonia face' is no such thing, he firstly claims that actually it is a face and NASA are deliberately obscuring or altering things to make it not look like a face, and secondly that actually these new higher resolution photos contain even more evidence of alien structures - structures that NASA were too stupid to hide from his all-seeing eye.

On something I read in his book at last night, he looks at images in Apollo 10's Analysis of Photography and Visual Observations

http://history.nasa.gov/ap10fj/pdf/19710018395_analysis-of-a10-photography+pbservations.pdf

and claims that there are photographs that are deliberately blacked out to hide information (specifically on page 197 but presumably there are others) as proven by the paper copies he bought from NASA.

As I own a paper copy of that document I checked, and I can completely agree that the reproductions are not great. However his claims that the hidden photos reveal new and exciting details are shown to be utter nonsense when you see that they are part of sequences of images, and everything in the poorly reproduced ones is visible on the photographs taken before and after.

He also conveniently ignores the fact that the images already existed publicly in much better quality on the web at the time he was doing his research, and that he was able to get copies with no fuss or argument whatsoever.

So it's incidents and accidents, hints and allegations, all nods and winks and 'well they would say that' and 'unnamed insiders' and the usual suspects involved in some grand overarching conspiracy. He isn't just playing with photos and saying 'that cloud looks like Ireland', he is playing fast and loose with the facts and using people's willingness to believe that the X-files are a documentary to make money. It isn't just a funny man telling silly stories, it's cynical exploitation of the gullible.
 
I'm gonna ride this tangent all the way from Mars to another (dwarf) planet, Ceres (with Bubba's permission, of course :p), and ask about this "pyramid" there:
picture.php


This has been referred to in any number of articles I've seen in the last few days as a pyramid, without any quotes indicating irony or doubt. Can someone help me here? Try as I might, I can not see any resemblance to a pyramid there- no straight lines forming a base or converging on an apex. I mean, that is what a pyramid is, right? an artificial construct made to resemble a mountain, but obviously artificial by way of straight lines? This thing just looks like a mountain to me- striking in its size and isolation, I guess, for such a small world, but not remarkably, or even roughly, artificial-looking. So why "pyramid"? Pareidolia has really run recursively away with itself when people insist on describing a real thing as a mimic of a real thing.
 
I'm gonna ride this tangent all the way from Mars to another (dwarf) planet, Ceres (with Bubba's permission, of course :p), and ask about this "pyramid" there:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1257&pictureid=9958[/qimg]

This has been referred to in any number of articles I've seen in the last few days as a pyramid, without any quotes indicating irony or doubt. Can someone help me here? Try as I might, I can not see any resemblance to a pyramid there- no straight lines forming a base or converging on an apex. I mean, that is what a pyramid is, right? an artificial construct made to resemble a mountain, but obviously artificial by way of straight lines? This thing just looks like a mountain to me- striking in its size and isolation, I guess, for such a small world, but not remarkably, or even roughly, artificial-looking. So why "pyramid"? Pareidolia has really run recursively away with itself when people insist on describing a real thing as a mimic of a real thing.

It's a zit, isn't it?
 
Actually, I do have to thank Hoagland for something...

Some time ago, I checked out the Enterprise Mission, out of curiosity - at least there's a good few laughs there, but it did point me to the Bad Astronomer (in a sneering reference!)

I still enjoy the occasional visit to the BA, but he pointed me at the JREF.

So, I guess I should thank Mr H for that! :)
 
Could this also apply to the feature girdling Iapetus.

If by "this" you mean concluding that something is artificial because it appears regular, then yes. The equator of a rotating body isn't just an artificial line; it's a place where various physics changes (e.g., Coriolis effects). And here in Utah we have many formations consisting of steep, parallel ridges. Although I doubt the same sorts of geological factors produced it, Devil's Backbone in Echo Canyon here is a formation of two "perfectly" straight, "perfectly" parallel ridges.
 
I recall when Hoagland's ads were on TV when the writing was on the wall and Cydonia was going to be reimaged. He knew that he could only sell his 'Do you see a face' nonsense for so long.

Then he tried to take credit for that area being reimaged.

When the new images were made public he had the expected excuses: digital imaging, NASA sent nuclear bombs to blow up the face, or that there were no Mars probes.

At the time, his premier outlet besides his ads was appearing on Art Bell's coast to coast. Art Bell had been quite sycophantic towards Hoagland but even he started to get fed up with Hoagland's excuses and even confronted him on the air about it. I remember his appearances started to drop in number and when Art Bell left the show Hoagland had a lot harder time getting on C2C.
 
I'm gonna ride this tangent all the way from Mars to another (dwarf) planet, Ceres (with Bubba's permission, of course :p), and ask about this "pyramid" there:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1257&pictureid=9958[/qimg]

This has been referred to in any number of articles I've seen in the last few days as a pyramid, without any quotes indicating irony or doubt. Can someone help me here? Try as I might, I can not see any resemblance to a pyramid there- no straight lines forming a base or converging on an apex. I mean, that is what a pyramid is, right? an artificial construct made to resemble a mountain, but obviously artificial by way of straight lines? This thing just looks like a mountain to me- striking in its size and isolation, I guess, for such a small world, but not remarkably, or even roughly, artificial-looking. So why "pyramid"? Pareidolia has really run recursively away with itself when people insist on describing a real thing as a mimic of a real thing.

Curious. When I turn the picture upside down it looks like a dimple. :confused:
 
So why "pyramid"?
Let me take a guess: It might be that you are using "pyramid" in the literal sense with the sharp edges and other features of a classic pyramid. In that sense, that blob is certainly not a pyramid.

Others might be using a much looser "definition" as something with a pointy top that rises out of a flat plane. Especially if they are the type to want to find little green men in outer space.

That and $1.59 and you can buy me a hot dog at Costco. :)
 
Hoagie sees artifacts everywhere in the solar system. Apparently long ago, the soloar system was inhabited by a Type II civilization of litterbugs.
 
Let me take a guess: It might be that you are using "pyramid" in the literal sense...

Others might be using a much looser "definition" as something with a pointy top that rises out of a flat plane. ...

Clearly there is some wishful language employed. That's why I characterize my contribution here as a tangent. We talk about pareidolia, which is an unconscious phenomenon. But the suggestions that arise unconsciously in some people are then buttressed by fully conscious (and even pseudo-rational) exercises such as photographic interpretation, numerology, and rhetoric.

In geometry, a pyramid must have a polygonal base and a single apex. The proof that only a polyhedron can result from this construction is left as an exercise to the reader. The monuments at Giza are not perfect polyhedra, but they sure try to be -- regular, right pyramids, no less. Working backwards, the Bent Pyramid is putatively a polyhedron, even if it fails the geometric definition of a pyramid. We call it a pyramid by a more architecturally-motivated criterion. Even the cancerous pile of rocks at Saqqara tries very hard to be a polyhedron, and generally rises stepwise to an apex from a brave attempt at a polygonal base. It earns the title "pyramid" again because architecture reserves its own nomenclature, and because it's not at all hard to connect it culturally and historically to the shining examples at Giza.

The crux of the issue, which I failed to emphasize enough before, is how good is "close enough?" Hoaglandites can already point to things that don't strictly fit the Euclidean definition of "pyramid" but which are commonly called that. As I said before, we have ways of quantifying regularity objectively, but the comparative scores still require evaluation within the framework of tolerance. As exacting as the Giza architects tried to be, we can measure a degree of irregularity. My house was certainly architected by a human being, according to generally accepted techniques of mid-century construction. Yet I measure things that are not plumb, level, flat, or at right angles to an arbitrary degree.

Even after high-resolution photographs of Cydonia revealed that its "pyramid" is anything but regular and anything but polyhedral, we still refer to it as the Cydonia Pyramid. And this leads to an amphiboly that plays well into Hoaglandites' goals. Because we can so sloppily identify things as "pyramids," it's only a short hike to the insinuation that it's a "perfect pyramid," in Hoagland's commonly-applied interpretation. If it generally fits the definition, then they can sneak it toward something more rigorous.

We look at some apparent discontinuities in the Ceres feature and we can immediately see how some might consider them suitable for an informal appellation as a pyramid. There is a discontinuity from the surface to the left (brightly lit) side. This would suggest it rises abruptly from the surrounding floor. And there are three dark patches generally in a row that would seem to demarcate the left-facing facet from one facing the viewer.

But the extension from those observations to a "regular, therefore must be artificial" conclusion suffers from two factors. First, we've been fooled before by this level of resolution -- both spatial and in the quantization of light levels. The Face on Mars presented us with indistinct patches and plenty of error-diffusion smoothing that fooled us into thinking there were regular elements where there were none. And second, discontinuity -- even regularly-shaped ones -- are not unknown in nature. My state boasts some wonderfully formed cinder cones in its southwest corner, which satisfy many criteria of regularity yet are unquestionably formed by nature, up to and including their abrupt rise from the surrounding terrain.

The necessary adoption of informal definitions and fuzzy tolerances doesn't mean we get to throw all rigor out the window. You can call it a pyramid if you want, but that categorization doesn't mean you get to assume it's artificially regular.
 
The Heechee series is Frederick Pohl's best work.

As for the OP....gobsmacked that anybody still takes Hoagland seriously considering the number of times he has been througly debunked.

Starburst was also very good- Will Becklund explaining "Chandra's Other Limit" to a group of children is an image that's always stayed with me.
 
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I like how everything space related is a hoax for these people until it "supports" their ideas. In what universe would the conspiring NASA-Freemasuminatibergers actually show pictures with these "artefacts"?!
 
I like how everything space related is a hoax for these people until it "supports" their ideas. In what universe would the conspiring NASA-Freemasuminatibergers actually show pictures with these "artefacts"?!

That's kind of always been my question; they're essentially asserting that NASA is covering up- and their proof is the pictures NASA freely show. :rolleyes:
 
He also has the subconscious memories of astronauts revealing the true nature of the lunar surface.

He says this about one of Alan Bean's paintings:

Of all Bean's fascinating paintings, one in particular stands out above the others. Titled "Rock 'n Roll on the Ocean of Storms," it depicts Bean and his Mission
Commander, Pete Conrad, horse-playing on the surface of the Moon. Not only does it
display the bright, refractive color scheme which has become the hallmark of the Bean interpretation of the lunar surface—the sky above the astronauts unmistakably depicts not only Hoagland's "battered lunar dome" but its specifically "inclined buttresses" as well.

The 'inclined buttresses' are Bean's Apollo suit replica bootprint, which he incorporates (along with tiny moondust impregnated shreds of of part of his suit) into many of his paintings. Hoagland's buttresses are photograph noise.

Aaah, but of course you would deny it Alan, you suppressed the memories....
 
That's kind of always been my question; they're essentially asserting that NASA is covering up- and their proof is the pictures NASA freely show. :rolleyes:

You see it's the perfect cover! The pyramids are a cover for something far more devious. It's a classic psy-op false flag sim disinfo shim sham!
 
Hoagland's scameidolia is Monty Python's black knight sketch in reverse.

The head threatens terminal mastication, loudly, with brashness. In a moment, it is renecked. The limbless torso struggles to convince us that it has all its powers. The arms re-attach; the stump now boasts of impressive legs unseen. One by one they reappear; softer grows the facile confidence.

With increasing alignment, the knight becomes meek; Hoagland's visions grow harder to overlay on reality.
 

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