Continuation The Electric Comet Theory Boogaloo (Part 2)

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Sol88 said:
The EU has plenty of evidence and a coherent hypothesis which by the way can also explain the bright spots on Ceres and the structures found on Pluto unlike the mainstream who seem consistently surprised, surprisingly!
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Not really Sol88, in fact the last time I asked you to demonstrate your claims, you waved your hands a lot and couldn't cite any data.

As usual

The EU is full of **** and has no data to support any electric stars or any thing other than ********
 
Sol88 said:
Well Hale-Bopp was still discharging (sorry outgassing) beyond the water sublimation zone...
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What albedo are the planets and icy moons? What is the albedo of a comet? What is the sublimation temperature of CO2?
Basic stuff.

Is all this scientifically illiterate hand waving just another attempt to avoid the question I keep asking?
Where is the evidence for any of the EU claims about comets?
I'll save you the time of trawling through the literature; there isn't any. All based on ignorance and pareidolia.
 
Sol88 said:
and they are collimated how exactly?

I don't think anybody here is denying "ice" sublimates into a vacuum but you have to ask the question, why do some of the icy moons we have in our solar system not appear like comets?
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There are numerous observations and models of how collimation occurs. For instance, for a recent paper, see: Geologic control of jet formation on Comet 103P/Hartley 2; http://planetary.brown.edu/pdfs/4623.pdf

As somebody else mentioned, the icy moons are water ice and beyond the distance at which water will sublimate. CO and CO2 will though, out to very large distances. See: Carbon Monoxide Production and Excitation in Comet C/1995 O1 (Hale-Bopp): Isolation of Native and Distributed CO Sources; http://astrobiology.gsfc.nasa.gov/pdf/2001 ref/disanti_2001.pdf

This stuff has been known about for a long time.
 
jonesdave116 said:
Why is asking for evidence of claims about electric comet models off-topic in the electric comet thread? Please explain.
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It doesn't fit in an evidence-free thread. No evidence has yet been offered, none will ever be offered, none can ever be offered because none exists.

The actual thread topic is not evidence for the Electricoidical whatchamahoosieISM "theory" but by body of work the thread topic is Texas Sharpshooting.
 
Reality Check said:
This thread is about the EC delusion, Sol88. Your (or anyone's!) ignorance about the mainstream theory does not support the EC delusion.
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Yep, old Sol's doing a pretty good job of keeping the thread off-topic to avoid questions about the ECH. He just keeps asking "But why?" to every response, like a pre-schooler who doesn't care about the answers but knows it's a wonderful way to wind up their parents.

So how about it, Sol? Why hasn't any significant electrical activity near the comet been detected by the Rosetta instruments? To paraphrase Dr. Ian Malcolm, you do eventually plan to have some, uh, electricity on your electric comet, don''t you?
 
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jonesdave116 said:
Why is asking for evidence of claims about electric comet models off-topic in the electric comet thread? Please explain.
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When Sol88 is talking about the EU, they are not talking about the Electric Comet Theory. They are talking about the Electric Universe and all that it entails.

It is a comment to avoid the EU nonsense being in this thread which is limited to a small subset of the EU the ECT.

Electric stars and that nonsense belongs in another thread, I was mainly trying to preemptive a major derail by Sol88.

Sol88 was changing the topic to something other than the ECT
Sol88 said:
The EU has plenty of evidence and a coherent hypothesis which by the way can also explain the bright spots on Ceres and the structures found on Pluto unlike the mainstream who seem consistently surprised, surprisingly!
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Jonesdave116 you are a wonderful poster and I in no way question your judgement, I was just asking that this not become a derail into the Electric Universe. Which is a quite a whole large number of other tthreads.
 
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Dancing David said:
Electric stars and that nonsense belongs in another thread, I was mainly trying to preemptive a major derail by Sol88.

Sol88 was changing the topic to something other than the ECT


Jonesdave116 you are a wonderful poster and I in no way question your judgement, I was just asking that this not become a derail into the Electric Universe. Which is a quite a whole large number of other tthreads.
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Ah, fair enough. My request for evidence does relate to the EC nonsense, and was posted a couple of times on the previous page. I probably should have phrased it more explicitly re EC.
Still nothing forthcoming, mind. Must be out looking for petroglyphs as proof!
 
jonesdave116 said:
Ah, fair enough. My request for evidence does relate to the EC nonsense, and was posted a couple of times on the previous page. I probably should have phrased it more explicitly re EC.
Still nothing forthcoming, mind. Must be out looking for petroglyphs as proof!
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Sol88 is the successor to many who have tried to actually explain the ECT, they seem unwilling to even try.
 
I've been asking for a year for a simple list of criteria by which one might differentiate between electrical and sublimation activity.

Ain't comin'.
 
Sol88: Icy moons are outside of the region where sublimation happens

Sol88 said:
and they are collimated how exactly?
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By being emitted from sublimating ices on a comet! Duh, Sol88!
Some jets are emitted from pits - anyone can see why that will collimate them.
As for the others, I do not know - being emitted from cracks rather than pits?
There are rational reasons in science as to why jets are collimated.
The EC delusion just has fantasies about electrical discharges.

The question "why do some of the icy moons we have in our solar system not appear like comets?" is easily answered. Icy moons are around Jupiter, etc. which is outside of the region where most comets develop coma.
In addition
  • Most icy moons are massive compared to comets - gravity prevents coma or jets from forming from any sublimation.
  • Few small icy moons have been observed closely enough to see any sublimation. The best observed ones are around Saturn - well outside of the sublimation region.
  • ETA: Icy moons tend to have different compositions than comets.
    They spend all of their lifetime in a region where volatile ices such as CO can sublimate and perhaps escape the moon. That leaves the ices that do not sublimate at their location. e.g. water.
    They are around gas giants where tidal heating is a factor.
    They have a lot of rock because they are denser than comets, e.g. Ganymede is about equal parts rock and ices.
 
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Sol88 said:
Well Hale-Bopp was still discharging (sorry outgassing) beyond the water sublimation zone...
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Well linking to the ignorance, delusions and lies of Thunderbolts suggests yet another lie from them (but is not), Sol88.
It does show more Thunderbolts ignorance of physics. Gasses escape from bodies when they exceed the bodies escape velocity. The more massive a body, the higher the escape velocity. Comets are tiny - it is easy for sublimating gases to escape from them. The icy moons of Saturn and Jupiter are mostly massive compared to comets - it is idiotic to think that sublimating gasses would escape from them to make them "as dry as our own scorched Moon". It is doubly idiotic to imply that the Moon is an icy moon :eek:!

It is possible that a tiny icy moon around Jupiter or Saturn could sublimate gases that would escape the moon. What you end up with is not a moon around Jupiter or Saturn. You end up with the rocks and dust that the icy moon had collected during its lifetime.

This is a rational citation: Comet Hale–Bopp
In October 2007, 10 years after the perihelion and at distance of 25.7 AU from Sun, the comet was still active as indicated by the detection of the CO-driven coma.[24]
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This is between Uranus and Neptune. The observation show that after perihelion and after the comet has been heated up to its maximum temperature, CO can still sublimate. Probably due to the stored heat though that 10 years surprises me.

The icy moons of Jupiter, etc. do not travel many AU to be heated up by the Sun and then swing outward again cooling slowly as they go :eye-poppi!
 
Because Comets Aren’t Cool Enough: They Also Have Sinkholes
The comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko is heading toward the Sun, and as it does, it slowly dies.

But what a death. Underneath its crusty surface are icy deposits, and as the comet nears the Sun, these warm. The ice turns directly to gas and blows out of vents, forming gorgeous and delicate streamers of water vapor dozens of kilometers long. The picture at the top of the article shows the long-distance view of this; from 177 kilometers away, the Rosetta spacecraft sees quite a few of these jets.

But what do these do to the surface? Some of the vents have been seen in close-up views from Rosetta, and they come from pits that you might mistake for impact craters at first. It’s clear these are the sources of at least some of the jets, but a new study reveals they’re more than that: They’re sinkholes.
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Jrrarglblarg said:
It doesn't fit in an evidence-free thread. No evidence has yet been offered, none will ever be offered, none can ever be offered because none exists.

The actual thread topic is not evidence for the Electricoidical whatchamahoosieISM "theory" but by body of work the thread topic is Texas Sharpshooting.
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It's there!!! Holger SIERKS needs to release the 3D and time lapse images of the jets source location, then we can talk again.

Why are they holding onto the data for so long??? Over a year now :(

Lots of pissed off public posting these thoughts on the ROSETTA BLOG page as well.

All we get now is a couple happy snaps '00kms away :(

just to reiterate HOLGER SIERKS holds the trump card!
 
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@Tusenfem

How's the detection of the 67P's double layer going?

Gota fly thru it and when they did it entered safe mode and was moved out to a safer orbit.

any chance of hearing the comets "song" and how's it's changed 1 year on??
 
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Sol88 said:
It's there!!! Holger SIERKS ..snipped insane demands....
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Yet more delusions from Sol88 :p!
  1. Holger SIERKS is not in control of the release of images.
  2. There are no 3D images :eek:
  3. You are not capable of analyzing astronomical images as you have shown in this thread.
  4. The ignorant and deluded Thunderbolts crowd are certainly not capable of analyzing astronomical images.
  5. Images are released all of the time.

This irrelevant rant from Sol88 demonstrates that he is incapable of understanding what is written here.
It doesn't fit in an evidence-free thread. No evidence has yet been offered, none will ever be offered, none can ever be offered because none exists.
That is about the EC delusion which is the subject of this thread (not science that actually works and has evidence!).
 
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Sol88 said:
Anyone can see the "jets" are on the bright rim of the "Sinkhole"!
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Back to making up delusions from a stance of ignorance, Sol88?
Because Comets Aren’t Cool Enough: They Also Have Sinkholes
A 200 meter wide sinkhole on a comet (and it's so cool just to type that). The walls are steep, and you can see jets of vapor moving across it. The overexposed parts are the comet's surface.
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Rational people look at that image and see the bright jets being obscured by the overexposed comet surface. We know that the surface is covered in dust. Thus the jets come from below the surface, e.g. from the exposed ices on the pit walls.

As I said: I know that you are too obsessed with your delusion that comets are rocks to ever accept any explanation for anything from anyone and here you are not accepting an explanation!

Ranting about HOLGER SIERKS controlling the release of images or that there are no images from OSIRIS does not help.
 
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Sol88 said:
Gota fly thru it and when they did it entered safe mode and was moved out to a safer orbit.
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How about you not fantasize about an imaginary double layer putting Rosetta into safe mode, Sol88, leading to an inane question?
Rosetta status report: close flyby navigation issues(Posted on 01/04/2015 by Emily)
During its most recent close flyby last Saturday, where Rosetta flew within 14 km of the surface of the comet, the spacecraft experienced significant difficulties in navigation. This resulted in its high gain antenna starting to drift away from pointing at the Earth, impacting communications, and was subsequently followed by a ‘safe mode’ event. The spacecraft has now been successfully recovered, but it will take a little longer to resume normal scientific operations. Here is the full report from the mission team:
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That was caused by the star trackers getting confused by dust in the coma.


More fantasy: Rosetta continued on its orbit and was not moved to a "safer" orbit.
 
Well then I 'spose we ALL just have to wait some more until the OSIRIS team release their hi-def images of the jets.

Access to Rosetta data

This period, typically 6-12 months, gives exclusive access to the data to the scientists who built the instruments or to scientists who made a winning proposal to make certain observations. In ESA's case, the length of the period is decided by our Member States when a mission is selected, although in some cases, the period is made shorter when a mission has been in operation for some time.

Snip...


As mentioned in a previous blog post, the reason we're not doing so is to avoid undermining the priority of the OSIRIS team, as there is some scientific overlap between the two camera systems. Some NAVCAM data are however being put out in coordination with the regular OSIRIS releases.
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Waiting.....waiting....waiting some more....
 
Sol88 said:
Well then I 'spose we ALL just have to wait some more until the OSIRIS team release their hi-def images of the jets.
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There is nothing to wait for - the existing images already make the already deluded EC idea more delusional, Sol88.
ETA: Unless you are waiting to support the EC delusion as it gets more delusional with every result from Rosetta (not only images, not only from OSIRIS ) :eek:!

Access to Rosetta data points out the common practice of giving people who work decades on a project dibs on the data from that project.
With Rosetta, all data from its 21 instruments (11 on the orbiter, 10 on the Philae lander) are subject to a 6 month proprietary period. Thus any release of images and scientific results that we are making now, as we approach rendezvous with 67P/C-G on 6 August, is being done with direct involvement of the instrument science teams, who are agreeing to waive the proprietary period for those items.
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The closest approach was on 14 February 2015 - so the high resolution images that then are only a month or so away.

The Thunderbolts team have been deluded for 10 years now and have remained deluded during the Rosetta mission. I expect that in a couple of months they will be just as deluded. Is there hope for you, Sol88 (somehow I doubt it :p)?
 
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Sol88 said:
@Tusenfem

How's the detection of the 67P's double layer going?

Gota fly thru it and when they did it entered safe mode and was moved out to a safer orbit.

any chance of hearing the comets "song" and how's it's changed 1 year on??
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what double layer?
safe mode was because the star trackers could not identify the stars anymore because of too much reflections from dust and has nothing to do with any double layer or other EC phantasys.
the singing comet paper has (finally) been accepted will appear soon in annales geophysicae
the song has petered off now, as the local plasma conditions have of course strongly changed since arrival at 67P/CG and the requirements for the instability creating the song are gone.
there will be interesting talks/posters at the fall AGU, for example "The magnetic response to sudden mass-loading of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko's induced magnetosphere"
 
Sol88 said:
Well then I 'spose we ALL just have to wait some more until the OSIRIS team release their hi-def images of the jets.

Access to Rosetta data

Waiting.....waiting....waiting some more....
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which is only fair, that the people who spent over 20 years of their professional life to get this data are the first to work on it

but you and your EC friends at thunderdolts could of course try to actually write up a real physical model of an EC, which then can be checked with available data on PDS or PSA from previous encounters with comets, and fine tune it, and then when the data start becoming available spruce it up further and show how mainstream is wrong.

however, I have not seen any EC proponents work with any actual data apart from looking at images ... can you show me any EC work that has used magnetic field or plasma data from e.g. giotto, vega, ... ?
 
tusenfem said:
As I would not expect Sol88 to be able to know his way around real scientific papers, here two about activity of Hale-Bopp at large distances (open access):

Cometary Activity at 25.7 AU: Hale-Bopp 11 Years after Perihelion

Frozen to death? Detection of comet Hale-Bopp at 30.7 AU

I have had no time to read them yet.
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Interesting read. To sum up briefly, the comet was still active at 25.7 AU, with an estimated temperature of ~53K. It seems to have ceased activity at or before 30.7 AU, with an estimated temperature of ~50K.
Should be noted that the sublimation temperature for CO in a vacuum is 24K.
 
@Reality Check

You are very good at understanding English, what are they trying to tell us?

Strongly-consolidated regions represent the most common region type on both lobes. Most of these regions show variable degrees of fracturing, which include irregular
or regular systems as well as ,polygonal, conjugate,regularly intersecting or ortho-rombic networks. The ubiquitous presence of fractured materials on the surface of the comet is of paramount significance for a body that displays a very low bulk density of ~0.5 kg/m3
[2], and high surface temperatures suggestive of a dry, porous, and poorly thermally conductive surface [8].
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LINK

I'm all ears! :)
 
 
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