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Old 5th August 2015, 11:24 AM   #3921
Robert Harris
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Originally Posted by Robert Harris View Post
I think I can help you guys out on the last question. Dr. Alvarez charted the four "angular accelerations" that he associated with loud, startling noises.

http://jfkhistory.com/alvarezchart.jpg

He posited a first shot at 177, a second at about 250 and third, which he suggested might be a siren, at 285 and a fourth at 313.

Of course we see dramatic reactions following 285 and 313, beginning at 290 and 318, associated with each of those "noises".

But we see no such thing following 177 and 250 and in fact, pretty much everyone these days, including Posner and Bugliosi, reject shots in those frames. There is a reason for that.

Neither of the first two shots startled anyone, including Abraham Zapruder. So Alvarez was forced to go with false positives.

Oswald's rifle was proven to generate 130 decibel sound at street level. That's 16 times louder than 90db, which is the level at which involuntary startle reactions will occur, as well as hearing loss with extended exposure.

So, it is not surprising that the people closest to the President were startled by the unsuppressed, high powered rifle shots at the end of the attack.

http://jfkhistory.com/duckstwice.gif

But the absence of such loud shots prior to 285, proves that a much different kind of rifle was used to first those shots than the ones at the end. So, unless Oswald was firing two very different weapons, there is no way he could have fired all of those shots.
It is important to understand how the different types of evidence corroborate each other.

The absence of startle reactions to the early shots, certainly proves that those shots were fired from a much weaker weapon than the final ones. But that fact is further corroborated by the large majority of witnesses. The Warren Commission concluded:

..a substantial majority of the witnesses stated that the shots were not evenly spaced. Most witnesses recalled that the second and third shots were bunched together.

That's a double edged sword. It not only confirms that they heard the shots at 285 and 313, but it proves that only one of the early shots was loud enough to even be audible. Obviously, those shots did not come from a high powered rifle - Oswald's or anyone else's.
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Old 5th August 2015, 11:27 AM   #3922
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Conversely, conspiracism is a shortcut to the appearance of erudition. Conspiracy theories are rarely based on extensive correct knowledge of the pertinent fields, and their proponents are rarely recognized by others in the field as having solid expertise. Hence conspiracism defines and lives in a world where the proponent's lay knowledge and understanding are sufficient, and subsequently denies that any other level of knowledge exists or is relevant.
And deny that anyone has an explanation for what they perceive are grave problems with the "official" theory, which turn out to be nothing.

Again I offer the moon hoax nonsense as an example: when your main line of argument comes from the fact that you don't know about film exposure, no one is going to take you seriously.
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Old 5th August 2015, 11:27 AM   #3923
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Post 4010, I love this one:

"Why should I? Any idiot can fire a rifle and hit his target in a such a small area as Dealey Plaza. It is ludicrous to think that Marcello would have backed off on his pledge to kill JFK, because one or more rifles were required."

I guess that when you asserted in earlier posts that "no one" could duplicate LHO's shots and I reminded you that Howard Donahue had done so, you ran right into the arms of the many-headed shooter fantasy where you remain firmly rooted today.

Today, any old shooter could have done the deed. What an odd way to support a theory.
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Old 5th August 2015, 11:33 AM   #3924
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Post 4013:

So, it is not surprising that the people closest to the President were startled by the unsuppressed, high powered rifle shots at the end of the attack.

Your problem here is that the rounds impacted before the sound of the muzzle blast reached the impact area.

No matter how you want to spin this, the round fired was supersonic.
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Old 5th August 2015, 11:53 AM   #3925
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Post 4013:

So, it is not surprising that the people closest to the President were startled by the unsuppressed, high powered rifle shots at the end of the attack.

Your problem here is that the rounds impacted before the sound of the muzzle blast reached the impact area.

No matter how you want to spin this, the round fired was supersonic.
Of course it was. But the shock wave was the shrillest and most startling component of the noise. It was measured at 130 decibels at a point 10 feet from the path of the bullet, from Oswald's rifle.

Barger,

the shock wave was measured by a microphone 10 feet from the trajectory of the bullet and the muzzle blast was measured by the same microphone which was at the same time 30 feet from the muzzle... The shockwave has an intensity of 130 decibels.

The shock wave of other high powered rifles was more than twice as loud as that. Watch Kellerman react to the 313 shot. He begins to drop his head at 315, 1/9th of a second later. The muzzle blast had not yet arrived then. He was reacting to the shock wave.

Bill Greer further confirmed that when he said he felt the "concussion" of the second shot he heard, which was almost simultaneous with the third.

That "concussion" could only have been the shock wave of the passing bullet. Dr. Alvarez was right. He was startled and in his panic, accidentally lifted his foot from the gas. That's why he spun around at such enormous speed, simultaneous with the reactions of the others.
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Old 5th August 2015, 12:59 PM   #3926
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Quote:
Did you figure out why no one reacted to the early shots, the way they did to the ones at the end?
We have established that the MC had a reputation, no matter how loud, of sounding like a fire-cracker when shot. This is also what everyone heard that day.


Quote:
Your argument is worthless. First of all, people who are infinitely more knowledgeable than you, like Summers, Waldron and Blakey, who worked for the Justice Dept and headed the HSCA, expressed no doubt at all, that the mob was behind the assassination.
No doubt, but in the end - No evidence.

Quote:
And it doesn't matter that they rarely used rifles. That certainly doesn't preclude them from using them or recruiting snipers who used them, when the situation called for it, as it did on 11/22/63.
Actually it does. It means they would have had to contract out to use people unknown to them, something the Mafia just doesn't do. Second, had the plot been discovered the United States would have hunted the entire mafia down Al Qaeda-style.

The Mafia is a business. Kennedy and his family were an asset to the mafia because of their father's past, and the questionable 1960 Illinois election results, etc. Plus, JFK was already ripe for blackmail. Why kill the most powerful man in the world when he can be so useful to you?

Right up until the murder, the CIA was working with the Mafia to take out Castro. This was done with the blessings of the Attorney General, RFK.

Throw in the fact that JFK was not likely to get a second term and you have no motive for the mafia to conduct a hit.


Quote:
Why should I? Any idiot can fire a rifle and hit his target in a such a small area as Dealey Plaza. It is ludicrous to think that Marcello would have backed off on his pledge to kill JFK, because one or more rifles were required.
This is circular logic. If any idiot could hit a target in the small area of Dealey Plaza then why would you need two shooters? Why hire two guys when you can pay one? Why spread the risk?

Marcello wasn't a stupid man.

Quote:
Of course there is. There is absolute proof.
No. There is no proof of a second shooter. Period.

First, it is silly to pretend that the large majority of witnesses, including the nonvictims in the limo, all suffered from the same delusion.

Quote:
And why won't you address the fact that almost no one heard more than a single, early shot?
People did. That's how they knew to look up and see the barrel of the rifle in the 6th floor window.


Quote:
Like all the others, John Connally heard the shot circa 150-160, as Posner and Bugliosi confirmed. But he NEVER heard the next shot. He only felt it.
The first shot passed over them. That's why he heard it. The second shot hit the President and him, it was super-sonic, and pain supersedes situational awareness.

You really have nothing.
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Old 5th August 2015, 01:06 PM   #3927
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Post 4028:

The shock wave of other high powered rifles was more than twice as loud as that. Watch Kellerman react to the 313 shot. He begins to drop his head at 315, 1/9th of a second later. The muzzle blast had not yet arrived then. He was reacting to the shock wave.

Having had a few rw experiences of this type under my belt, I'd like to know how exactly you came to the conclusion that "the shock wave" caused the automatic "startle response" you assign to Kellerman.

Most untrained (and inexperienced but trained) individuals don't react at all to the sound of a supersonic projectile.

Back in the 70's - 80's there was a SOT that came up with the best sales demonstration technique ever when he brought folks on a tour of the French Quarter and a certain hotel nearby where he fired live rounds into safe backstops w/ his suppressor designs while the good citizens of the Quarter and the tourists went about their business blissfully unaware of the supersonic/subsonic projectiles that were being fired in close proximity.
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Old 5th August 2015, 01:33 PM   #3928
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Post 4028:

The shock wave of other high powered rifles was more than twice as loud as that. Watch Kellerman react to the 313 shot. He begins to drop his head at 315, 1/9th of a second later. The muzzle blast had not yet arrived then. He was reacting to the shock wave.

Having had a few rw experiences of this type under my belt, I'd like to know how exactly you came to the conclusion that "the shock wave" caused the automatic "startle response" you assign to Kellerman.
I came to that conclusion, based on the fact that the shock wave from Oswald's rifle generated a sound level that was 16 times louder than 90db, the level at which involuntary startle reactions will be provoked, and that other high powered rifles were up to 32 times greater.

He and the others in the limo HAD to have been startled by any high powered rifle shots then, and anyone can see that they were.

http://jfkhistory.com/duckstwice.gif

Quote:
Most untrained (and inexperienced but trained) individuals don't react at all to the sound of a supersonic projectile.
That is flatly untrue, and the evidence proves it.
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Old 5th August 2015, 02:28 PM   #3929
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Originally Posted by Robert Harris View Post
I came to that conclusion, based on the fact that the shock wave from Oswald's rifle generated a sound level that was 16 times louder than 90db, the level at which involuntary startle reactions will be provoked, and that other high powered rifles were up to 32 times greater.

He and the others in the limo HAD to have been startled by any high powered rifle shots then, and anyone can see that they were.
You haven't shown that the reactions were due to hearing shots, that's your conjecture, unbacked by any evidence. Also, what were the background noise levels?
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Old 5th August 2015, 02:32 PM   #3930
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Did you figure out why no one reacted to the early shots, the way they did to the ones at the end?

Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
We have established that the MC had a reputation, no matter how loud, of sounding like a fire-cracker when shot. This is also what everyone heard that day.
Why are you dodging the question?

The reactions following 285 and 313 were vastly different than the ones following 160 and 223. Why don't we see people ducking and spinning around and shielding their ears in reaction to the early shots?

Those shots should have been the loudest and most startling, since the limo was much closer to the alleged sniper's nest then. Why didn't they startle anyone?

And why is it that most witnesses only heard one of those early shots? The WC correctly concluded that "most" relevant witnesses said they only heard one shot prior to the very end of the attack. How could they have overlooked a 130 decibel, high powered, rifle shot?

Quote:
No doubt, but in the end - No evidence.
Well of course. The top experts on the mob and its relationship to the JFK assassination, just formed their conclusions on a Ouiji board. Never mind the many hundreds of sourced footnotes in their books, or the minor fact that Marcello swore that he would kill JFK and then confessed to doing so, to an FBI informant, mafia attorney Frank Ragano, and others.

Never mind the fact that Sam Giancana was murdered exactly 5 days before he was supposed to testify about the mob's connections to the CIA, or that Johnny Roselli's dismembered body was found floating in an oil drum, shortly after telling the Washington Post that the mob ordered Ruby to kill Oswald.

Or the fact that within 24 hours after HSCA investigators began to call around, looking for Charles Nicoletti, the man was murdered.

Or the fact that David Ferrie, who Marcello described as his accomplice, was found dead, within a couple days after it came out in the papers that he was being investigated by Garrison.

Or the fact, that Jim Braden, who is in arguably, the best sniper position in Dealey Plaza that day, was rubbing elbows with Jack Ruby the night before, at the Cabana hotel, the same place where Ruby was meeting with Marcello lieutenant, Joe Campisi, who also just happened to be Ruby's first visitor after he shot Oswald.

Gosh, how could anyone be suspicious about those little details


Quote:
Actually it does. It means they would have had to contract out to use people unknown to them, something the Mafia just doesn't do.
Nonsense. Anyone could have shot Kennedy in Dealey plaza as the limo crawled along at 12 mph.

Quote:
Second, had the plot been discovered the United States would have hunted the entire mafia down Al Qaeda-style.
The FBI, who was responsible for the entire investigation was committed to "convince the public" that Oswald acted alone. And Hoover had been in the mobs' pocket for many years, which is why he claimed that the Mafia didn't exist.

And they carried out that agenda, over and over and over again - when they did everything possible to coverup the fact that Jack Ruby lied, when he was asked during his polygraph test, if he had been involved in the assassination.

http://jfkhistory.com/Polygraph/polygraph.html

They even went so far as to falsify evidence. This article about CE399 presents a mountain of evidence which proves that.

http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/BellArticle.html

As long as Hoover was in charge of the investigation, Marcello had no worries at all, that he would be caught.

Quote:
The Mafia is a business.
This was not about "business". Bobby humiliated Marcello by having him dragged out of his house in the middle of the night and dumped in the jungles of Guatemala. He swore that he would kill JFK (not Bobby) for that, and he admitted that he did it, even to an FBI informant.

Any idiot can fire a rifle and hit his target in a such a small area as Dealey Plaza. It is ludicrous to think that Marcello would have backed off on his pledge to kill JFK, because one or more rifles were required.

Quote:
This is circular logic. If any idiot could hit a target in the small area of Dealey Plaza then why would you need two shooters? Why hire two guys when you can pay one? Why spread the risk?
There have been thousands of acts of terror and murder in which fewer assassins, or even one, could have done the job.

Of course, you might be partially right. Maybe they did use people who were not expert riflemen and they thought they needed 2 or 3 people to be sure they got him - especially since some of the shots were obviously fired from suppressed weapons, which are not always accurate.

First, it is silly to pretend that the large majority of witnesses, including the nonvictims in the limo, all suffered from the same delusion.

Quote:
People did. That's how they knew to look up and see the barrel of the rifle in the 6th floor window.
Two or three people did indeed, look up there - probably because the two high powered rifle shots were fired by snipers on the 6th floor.

Quote:
The first shot passed over them. That's why he heard it.
No sir. He was very specific, that it was the second that caused the "concussion" he felt.

The second one didn't sound any different much than the first one but I kind of got, by turning around, I don't know whether I got a little concussion of it, maybe when it hit something or not, I may have gotten a little concussion that made me think there was something different to it.

And here's another clue for you. He wasn't turned around at 150-160 or 223,

http://jfkhistory.com/greer.gif

His face is not always clear, but keep an eye on his black tie.

Now look at him at 285.

http://jfkhistory.com/285.jpg

Quote:
The second shot hit the President and him, it was super-sonic, and pain supersedes situational awareness.
Of course the 223 shot hit JFK, but it was not supersonic. If it was, everyone would have heard it. And if Oswald had fired that shot, there would have been a 130 decibel shock wave, which would have had those people reacting at least as dramatically as they did, following 285 and 313.

But that isn't what happened, is it?

Virtually NO ONE heard that shot - not John Connally, not his wife, not Mrs. Kennedy, not Kellerman and not Greer.

Would you like to argue that there really was, only one early shot?

Last edited by Robert Harris; 5th August 2015 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 5th August 2015, 02:36 PM   #3931
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You haven't shown that the reactions were due to hearing shots, that's your conjecture, unbacked by any evidence. Also, what were the background noise levels?
Do you understand what "involuntary" means?

It means that those people had no choice. They had to react, and they obviously did.

Take a look at the reactions of Roy Kellerman and tell me with a straight face, that he was not startled then.

http://www.jfkhistory.com/kellerman2.gif

You can also see him reacting here

http://jfkhistory.com/royducks.gif
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Old 5th August 2015, 03:26 PM   #3932
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Originally Posted by Robert Harris View Post
Do you understand what "involuntary" means?

It means that those people had no choice. They had to react, and they obviously did.

Take a look at the reactions of Roy Kellerman and tell me with a straight face, that he was not startled then.

http://www.jfkhistory.com/kellerman2.gif

You can also see him reacting here

http://jfkhistory.com/royducks.gif
Odd; you quote my post, but are not replying to what it actually says. Have another go.
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Old 6th August 2015, 12:02 AM   #3933
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Originally Posted by Robert Harris View Post
If these reactions were to a gunshot, then the conspiracy debate is over:
So, how about providing some evidence that a gunshot caused the reactions?
Quote:

Maybe one of you can prove it was something other than a gunshot, or at least, create some doubts about it.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
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Old 6th August 2015, 03:50 AM   #3934
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Mod WarningThis thread has been put onModerated status until such time as a member of the moderation team can clean it out. As always, do not attempt to get around this by starting new threads or continuing the discussion in other threads.
Responding to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By:kmortis
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Old 14th August 2015, 08:04 AM   #3935
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This presentation discusses the shooting from start to finish. It explains much more than just my opinions. It presents the evidence which proves them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvqCtaBkyyE
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Old 15th August 2015, 07:05 AM   #3936
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These debunk conspiracy theories which proves yours wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7TbB4uxJEk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufFa5xBYPd0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeXMoWmu0TU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBfPKIN__SI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxmsyWSQj0A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYiyKtx9Y68

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSBXW1-VGmM

I can especially recommend the ABC presentation but they all do a good job.

I have many more links to YouTube videos if you'd like.
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Old 23rd August 2015, 01:59 PM   #3937
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Mod InfoThread ended because of length and continued in Part IV here. Thank you.
Posted By:Loss Leader
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