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A question about a "super human."

JM85

Critical Thinker
J
Joined
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Messages
307
While searching for a video demonstration of supposed chi energy in martial arts, I found a clip from a television show called "Superhumans." Superhumans was a television series that aired in 2010. Anyway, <a href=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNctiOZPdO8>this is the clip</a> It's of a man named Guy Bavli who claims to use telekinesis to move objects. Near the end of the episode they hooked up an EKG machine to this guy while he was supposedly moving an object into a glass. The machine they hooked him up to showed a gamma wave spike that was on the scale of somebody having a seizure.

What I can't figure out is there are no strings attached to the object, and it seems nearly impossible for Guy Bavli to do a trick when there is a scientist testing him. Youtube commenters aren't helpful in explaining what's going on, so I'm turning to you guys and gals. I couldn't find any old threads on JREF discussing this subject.
 
JM85 said:
What I can't figure out is there are no strings attached to the object, and it seems nearly impossible for Guy Bavli to do a trick when there is a scientist testing him.
.
Click to expand...

Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Wherever did you get the idea that a professional magician has a difficult time performing in front of a scientist?

If someone is claiming psychic powers then the the thing to do is put him in front of someone like Randi.

.........
As for the video, if some of his telekinesis is simply easily-explained stage magic (e.g. spinning a carefully balanced spoon while waving his hands nearby is clearly done with a magnet), then there is no reason to believe that the other demonstrations are not stage magic as well.
 
Scientists operate in a world of "decision theory", where they are setting up experiments to see how the world works. The universe does not care it is being studied, and does not alter its behavior.


For paranormal stuff, they need to operate according to "game theory", where the universe conspires against you to defeat you, deliberately countering your moves.

Many psychics will pretend to be a happy little test subject, when in fact they are trying to defeat the investigator as in a chess match.

And a scientist needs to consult a magician Grand Master to watch for and counter skilled moves.
 
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Ladewig said:
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Wherever did you get the idea that a professional magician has a difficult time performing in front of a scientist?

If someone is claiming psychic powers then the the thing to do is put him in front of someone like Randi.

.........
As for the video, if some of his telekinesis is simply easily-explained stage magic (e.g. spinning a carefully balanced spoon while waving his hands nearby is clearly done with a magnet), then there is no reason to believe that the other demonstrations are not stage magic as well.
Click to expand...

I'm assuming that the scientist wasn't in on the trick. How did he fool the EKG machine measuring his brain waves? And this is conjecture on my part, but I'm guessing they checked to see if Guy had anything "hidden up his sleeve," before the test.

Yes, I agree that he would be a good candidate for Randi's million dollar challenge.
 
JM85 said:
I'm assuming that the scientist wasn't in on the trick. How did he fool the EKG machine measuring his brain waves?
Click to expand...

I don't know, but I suspect that it can be done.

And even if I am wrong and there is no way to short out or otherwise create false readings on an EEG, so what. Generating brainwaves is not evidence of telekinesis.

And this is conjecture on my part, but I'm guessing they checked to see if Guy had anything "hidden up his sleeve," before the test.
Click to expand...

Why would a program called "Superhumans" take steps to show that Superhumans don't exist?

Yes, I agree that he would be a good candidate for Randi's million dollar challenge.
Click to expand...

His very first demonstration is a well-known and often-used magic trick using magnets. Therefore, there is more evidence that he is a professional magician than there is evidence that he has psychic powers. I see no reason at all for him to apply for the million dollar challenge. I was just pointing out that magicians, sleight-of-hand artists, and stage mentalists are far more valuable than scientists when dealing with folks who claim to have psychic powers.
 
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Senex said:
That's what the term "superhuman" has come to?
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Something precariously balanced on the lip of the glass fell into the glass when he used his "telekinetic powers." So his superpower is to create a small draft very close to his hands.
 
p0lka said:
haha, Whatever happened to leaping buildings in a single bound.
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That's exactly what I was thinking.

Ladewig said:
Something precariously balanced on the lip of the glass fell into the glass when he used his "telekinetic powers." So his superpower is to create a small draft very close to his hands.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what I was thinking.

Today's woo claim is very modest.
 
Senex said:
That's exactly what I was thinking.

Today's woo claim is very modest.
Click to expand...

Well, to be fair, he did bend a house key in a different segment.
I believe psychic power is measured in Gellers. So he is displaying 1000 milligellers of psychic power. In American units that would be 3.57 bull **** of psychic power
 
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Ladewig said:
I don't know, but I suspect that it can be done.

And even if I am wrong and there is no way to short out or otherwise create false readings on an EEG, so what. Generating brainwaves is not evidence of telekinesis.
Click to expand...

Point taken, but from what some of the comments in the video were saying, the brain wave spike was equivalent to somebody having a seizure. And it showed that the object moved at the same time of the brain spike. Whether moving the object into the glass was a trick or not is up for debate, but that brain wave spike is hard to explain-for me anyway.

Ladewig said:
Why would a program called "Superhumans" take steps to show that Superhumans don't exist?
Click to expand...

The scientists who are testing the people on this show don't seem to be affiliated with the program. I don't think they have an interest in proving whether the people on the show are super human or not. Although that's just speculation, and they could have been paid to formulate fake test results.

Ladewig said:
His very first demonstration is a well-known and often-used magic trick using magnets. Therefore, there is more evidence that he is a professional magician than there is evidence that he has psychic powers. I see no reason at all for him to apply for the million dollar challenge. I was just pointing out that magicians, sleight-of-hand artists, and stage mentalists are far more valuable than scientists when dealing with folks who claim to have psychic powers.
Click to expand...


Wow, that's so obvious now. I'm not sure how I missed this.

Thank you all for the feedback so far.
 
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Ladewig said:
Well, to be fair, he did bend a house key in a different segment.
I believe psychic power is measured in Gellers. So he is displaying 1000 milligellers of psychic power. In American units that would be 3.57 bull **** of psychic power
Click to expand...

I performed mentalism in college and stole a big part of Geller's routine. Bending keys takes no psychic abilities. I'm wise to the woo as well.

JM85 said:
Point taken, but from what some of the comments in the video were saying, the brain wave spike was equivalent to somebody having a seizure. And it showed that the object moved at the same time of the brain spike. Whether moving the object into the glass was a trick or not is up for debate, but that brain wave spike is hard to explain-for me anyway.
Click to expand...
Are you saying that despite the object in the glass trick being woo the part about the brainwaves was the real thing that just happened to occur simultaneously to the glass trick?

Wow, that's so obvious now. I'm not sure how I missed this.

Thank you all for the feedback so far.
Click to expand...

I hope you are sincere
 
JM85 said:
Point taken, but from what some of the comments in the video were saying, the brain wave spike was equivalent to somebody having a seizure. And it showed that the object moved at the same time of the brain spike. Whether moving the object into the glass was a trick or not is up for debate, but that brain wave spike is hard to explain-for me anyway.
Click to expand...
So? Are any of them trained physicians? Do you believe all random comments on youtube videos? Was the machine callibrated and operated by a trained professional in the field? Or just a "scientist"? Is the spike actually all that special?
Are you aware of toys for sale such as the mindforce "levitating ball" toy that use changing brainwave activity of any user to affect the height of the ball? If a child can purposly adjust brainwave activity at will then i'm pretty sure a random adult can do it as well.

The scientists who are testing the people on this show don't seem to be affiliated with the program. I don't think they have an interest in proving whether the people on the show are super human or not. Although that's just speculation, and they could have been paid to formulate fake test results.
Click to expand...
Maybe or maybe they are paid to help hype results that aren't really all that special


Wow, that's so obvious now. I'm not sure how I missed this.

Thank you all for the feedback so far.
Click to expand...
 
fagin said:
I believe David Copperfield once made the Statue of Liberty disappear.
Click to expand...

And that's germane to the issue at hand, how? I'm not up to date on logical fallacies, but I will take a wild stab at it. I believe that's referred to as Post hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin: "after this, therefore because of this"...Since event Y followed event X, event Y must have been caused by event X.")
 
Ladewig said:
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Wherever did you get the idea that a professional magician has a difficult time performing in front of a scientist?

If someone is claiming psychic powers then the the thing to do is put him in front of someone like Randi.

.........
As for the video, if some of his telekinesis is simply easily-explained stage magic (e.g. spinning a carefully balanced spoon while waving his hands nearby is clearly done with a magnet), then there is no reason to believe that the other demonstrations are not stage magic as well.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ, kind sir. The best people to evaluate a Super Human are scientists' applying the Scientific Method being advised by someone like a Randi. Simply strip him down to his boxers, restrain his hands behind his back and his feet to the legs of the chair -- here's where the Randi's come in -- pinch his nose tight, insert a divers' mouthpiece in his mouth, seal it with something like rubber glue and then "Let slip the dogs of war and cry havoc"


Disclaimer: I will respond to polite, civil exchanges. I will not tolerate any inappropriate behavior, character assassination or killing the messenger type behavior.

Thank you in advance
 
jakesteele said:
And that's germane to the issue at hand, how? I'm not up to date on logical fallacies, but I will take a wild stab at it. I believe that's referred to as Post hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin: "after this, therefore because of this"...Since event Y followed event X, event Y must have been caused by event X.")
Click to expand...

Jolly good. If you say so.

Or to use a good Anglo Saxon phrase, bollocks is bollocks in any language.
 
jakesteele said:
And that's germane to the issue at hand, how? I'm not up to date on logical fallacies, but I will take a wild stab at it. I believe that's referred to as Post hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin: "after this, therefore because of this"...Since event Y followed event X, event Y must have been caused by event X.")
Click to expand...

On this board, such posts are shorthand for saying that professional magicians can do all sorts of things from monsterously large illusions down to appearing to use telekinesis to move very small objects. The precise message is to not believe everything one sees in TV programs and YouTube videos that are not filmed under carefully controlled conditions.

I personally think such posts are so brief that OPers can miss the point, but everyone has his or her own posting style. I wouldn't have even mentioned the post if you had not questioned it.

If I have misinterpreted your post, Fagin, I apologize.
 
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Guy Bavli is a magician. His own biography says he grew up doing magic. It says he realized from a young age that his destiny was “successfully entertaining and having the extraordinary ability to charm people while he performed magical illusions.” He got some inspiration from Geller. He has always performed as a magician. He does magic tricks. Many are common (and many are Gelleresque). He performs better than Geller, and his repertoire is larger. He does some other nice tricks.

He seems to have adopted the position that some magician take of not expressly saying that what he does is illusions, but he doesn’t say that isn’t what he does either. He does motivational speaking. Message about being able to change things if you put your mind to it and being able to accomplish amazing things if you only believe are good messages for a motivational speaker, and that fits in with his mentalism magic act.

His website plays around these edges with phrases like “spellbinding mind illusions” and “an unforgettably magical journey through the unexplored corners of the mind” and “performances that put you in touch with your Sixth sense”. Nowhere does it say he has supernatural powers. It sort of alludes to that, but never actually says it, and in some places specially mentions “illusions”. Even in the Superhuman show he corrects the host saying “what some people call telekinesis”. Although he the skips into his motivational type pitch of a “sixth or seventh sense” and that people just have to believe. He goes along with the program and never confesses that he does illusions.

The host tries to give the impression that he is questioning and testing Bavli’s abilities, but really he is just going along with supporting the act. It gives the appearance that he trying to rule out a magic trick. To test against props, he selects item on his own from a hardware store. To test against magnets, he selects non-metallic items.

But there are no controls. There is no real attempt to stump Bavli. How about a ceramic pot with a wide base sitting on carpet? A glass screen to protect from wires? Iron filing to check for magnets? Powder of Styrofoam to protect from blowing or air currents?

In the 1970s Randi busted Geller on the key/spoon bending trick and busted James Hydrick on the pen/pencil turning and blowing on pages/paint stirrer type tricks. These are old, simple tricks.

I don’t know enough about EEG to know how that trick was done. My first guesses would be a magnet brought near the electrodes or a thumbtack in the shoe pressed into his foot at the right time.

I don’t see anything to bust. This is a magician who claims to do illusions getting some publicity on a TV show looking for ratings by presenting things as mysterious.
 
JM85 said:
I couldn't find any old threads on JREF discussing this subject.
Click to expand...

Here is one post from 2005 that talks about a video for purchase from magic shops where Bavli reveals how he does his tricks.

The Mighty Thor said:
I can bend keys using three different "tricks" that you would never spot.

I can also "mentally" make you put a mixed pack of cards into red and black piles a la Randi.

I paid good money to learn how to do this. That is what most magicians do. Most magic shops stock a video by a conjurer named Guy Bavli where he demonstrates the tricks behind metal bending -- forks, spoons, big nails.

You can watch his show on the video before he exposes the secrets. You will be convinced he is doing it without any tricks -- until he shows just how he goes it.

Then you might feel very silly for having been so easily deceived.
Click to expand...
 
jakesteele said:
And that's germane to the issue at hand, how? I'm not up to date on logical fallacies, but I will take a wild stab at it. I believe that's referred to as Post hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin: "after this, therefore because of this"...Since event Y followed event X, event Y must have been caused by event X.")
Click to expand...


Jake Steele, Don't lecture people on logic and logical fallacies. From what I can see, you don't have a good grasp of the topic.
 
Those of us old enough to have been around during the popularity of "New Age" nonsense in the 70s and early 80s, when many major universities had a "Parapsychology" department and the US and Soviet governments were spending millions to see if they could psychically spy on each other.....
Are also aware of how easily "scientists" can be fooled by these charlatans. Geller took advantage of a number of fairly well-respected researchers, one of whom went on to make quite a fool of himself trying to get children to perform psychic feats. (because children wouldn't cheat...)

Science works on the principal that nature may be subtle and difficult, but it doesn't actively try to deceive you. Human beings do.
If you're interested in this field, dig up some of the old books by Martin Gardner and James Randi, and check out some past issues of the Skeptical Inquirer from your library.
 
DevilsAdvocate said:
I don’t know enough about EEG to know how that trick was done. My first guesses would be a magnet brought near the electrodes or a thumbtack in the shoe pressed into his foot at the right time.
Click to expand...

I'm sure if I imagined Jennifer Aniston in a negligee (or insert your own choice of suitably hot person/thing/creature (leading on from Furry thread) here) I could cause a massive spike.
 
DevilsAdvocate said:
I don’t know enough about EEG to know how that trick was done. My first guesses would be a magnet brought near the electrodes or a thumbtack in the shoe pressed into his foot at the right time.
Click to expand...


Tugging on the electrode lead wires could do it. Or stretching the skin of the scalp (perhaps by shifting ones weight while pressing the shoulders or back of the head against the back of the char).

It doesn't take much. EEG amplifiers are very sensitive (they're measuring signals of a few microvolts, through electrode contacts that are often tens of k-ohms or more in impedance) and the equipment is designed for a cooperative relaxed subject. Look up "motion artifact" in any source on electroencephalography.
 
DevilsAdvocate said:
Guy Bavli is a magician. His own biography says he grew up doing magic. It says he realized from a young age that his destiny was “successfully entertaining and having the extraordinary ability to charm people while he performed magical illusions.” He got some inspiration from Geller. He has always performed as a magician. He does magic tricks. Many are common (and many are Gelleresque). He performs better than Geller, and his repertoire is larger. He does some other nice tricks.

He seems to have adopted the position that some magician take of not expressly saying that what he does is illusions, but he doesn’t say that isn’t what he does either. He does motivational speaking. Message about being able to change things if you put your mind to it and being able to accomplish amazing things if you only believe are good messages for a motivational speaker, and that fits in with his mentalism magic act.

His website plays around these edges with phrases like “spellbinding mind illusions” and “an unforgettably magical journey through the unexplored corners of the mind” and “performances that put you in touch with your Sixth sense”. Nowhere does it say he has supernatural powers. It sort of alludes to that, but never actually says it, and in some places specially mentions “illusions”. Even in the Superhuman show he corrects the host saying “what some people call telekinesis”. Although he the skips into his motivational type pitch of a “sixth or seventh sense” and that people just have to believe. He goes along with the program and never confesses that he does illusions.

The host tries to give the impression that he is questioning and testing Bavli’s abilities, but really he is just going along with supporting the act. It gives the appearance that he trying to rule out a magic trick. To test against props, he selects item on his own from a hardware store. To test against magnets, he selects non-metallic items.

But there are no controls. There is no real attempt to stump Bavli. How about a ceramic pot with a wide base sitting on carpet? A glass screen to protect from wires? Iron filing to check for magnets? Powder of Styrofoam to protect from blowing or air currents?

In the 1970s Randi busted Geller on the key/spoon bending trick and busted James Hydrick on the pen/pencil turning and blowing on pages/paint stirrer type tricks. These are old, simple tricks.

I don’t know enough about EEG to know how that trick was done. My first guesses would be a magnet brought near the electrodes or a thumbtack in the shoe pressed into his foot at the right time.

I don’t see anything to bust. This is a magician who claims to do illusions getting some publicity on a TV show looking for ratings by presenting things as mysterious.
Click to expand...

This post was very helpful! The show didn't present Guy as a magical act, and I was fooled into thinking that it wasn't one. I have come to the conclusion that this episode was staged by the entire cast and crew. Even the people conducting the tests were probably in on it.
 
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Myriad said:
Tugging on the electrode lead wires could do it. Or stretching the skin of the scalp (perhaps by shifting ones weight while pressing the shoulders or back of the head against the back of the char).

It doesn't take much. EEG amplifiers are very sensitive (they're measuring signals of a few microvolts, through electrode contacts that are often tens of k-ohms or more in impedance) and the equipment is designed for a cooperative relaxed subject. Look up "motion artifact" in any source on electroencephalography.
Click to expand...

I had an EEG a few years ago and they kept telling me to leave my mouth hanging open and scolding me when I forgot and closed it, because when my teeth touched each other it messed up the EEG. I wasn't clear on whether it was my fillings touching one another or some minute vibration caused by teeth-on-teeth.
 
JM85 said:
This post was very helpful! The show didn't present Guy as a magical act, and I was fooled into thinking that it wasn't one. I have come to the conclusion that this episode was staged by the entire cast and crew. Even the people conducting the tests were probably in on it.
Click to expand...

Are you becoming more skeptical and less credulous?

HansMustermann said:
Well, for the real deal, you don't want a "super-human." See, what you need is a META-human :p
Click to expand...

Like Thor?

I want more ambition from the woos. What happened to the levitating monk?
 
Senex said:
Like Thor?

I want more ambition from the woos. What happened to the levitating monk?
Click to expand...

Nah, Thor is Marvel. Meta-Humans are DC. So, you know, like Flash, Reverse-Flash, Firestorm, Killer Frost, or Vibe, to name just the STAR Labs gang :p

(Warning: if you don't want spoilers and aren't enough of a DC nerd to know their names already, well, just don't look them up :p)
 
HansMustermann said:
Nah, Thor is Marvel. Meta-Humans are DC. So, you know, like Flash, Reverse-Flash, Firestorm, Killer Frost, or Vibe, to name just the STAR Labs gang :p

(Warning: if you don't want spoilers and aren't enough of a DC nerd to know their names already, well, just don't look them up :p)
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I should have known that but I was thinking of your predilection for Norse mythology more than DC/Marvel.
 
Well, as Loki is my witless, I'm also even more into taking the piss than into Norse gods. And "you don't want a 'super-human,' you want a god" wouldn't have been nearly as much as a nerdy joke.
 
HansMustermann said:
Well, as Loki is my witless, I'm also even more into taking the piss than into Norse gods. And "you don't want a 'super-human,' you want a god" wouldn't have been nearly as much as a nerdy joke.
Click to expand...

Well, maybe, but not by a lot :rolleyes:

I actually dressed up as a Norse god for Halloween this year. I even met a girl. That's all I can say because it's a Loki affair.
 
JM85 said:
Even the people conducting the tests were probably in on it.
Click to expand...

While that is possible, don't make the mistake of assuming that is necessary. A long history exists of people trying to honestly measure things being duped/confused/misled by others.
 
JM85 said:
This post was very helpful! The show didn't present Guy as a magical act, and I was fooled into thinking that it wasn't one. I have come to the conclusion that this episode was staged by the entire cast and crew. Even the people conducting the tests were probably in on it.
Click to expand...

When the question is "Did some humans deceive me or were the laws of physics broken?" the choice should be obvious.
 
Senex said:
Are you becoming more skeptical and less credulous?



Like Thor?

I want more ambition from the woos. What happened to the levitating monk?
Click to expand...

He was flying one day and got caught in a downdraft.
 
Again to go back a bit, some here will recall the show, "That's Incredible" which also featured numbers of people doing sideshow/carny tricks and passing these off as powers and abilities.

People having concrete slabs broken on their bodies, cars driving over them.... All cheesy side-show tricks that a high-school physics professor could explain to the kids.

One notorious individual who appeared first on this show was James Hydrick....Who billed himself as a "martial artist" who could move things like telephone-book pages with the powers of his mind....
Actually, the powers of a concealed compressed-air source which was discovered when James Randi exposed his fraud on the Tonight show.
 
Bikewer said:
Actually, the powers of a concealed compressed-air source which was discovered when James Randi exposed his fraud on the Tonight show.
Click to expand...

It was from a Bob Barker show.



It seems lousy to me that you get blessed with psychic powers and all you can do with it is move a precariously balanced pencil and turn a few pages of a phone book and even then your powers can be defeated with a few pieces of styrofoam.
 
Ladewig said:
On this board, such posts are shorthand for saying that professional magicians can do all sorts of things from monsterously large illusions down to appearing to use telekinesis to move very small objects. The precise message is to not believe everything one sees in TV programs and YouTube videos that are not filmed under carefully controlled conditions.

I personally think such posts are so brief that OPers can miss the point, but everyone has his or her own posting style. I wouldn't have even mentioned the post if you had not questioned it.

If I have misinterpreted your post, Fagin, I apologize.
Click to expand...

I believe this is the part you are referring to:

What I can't figure out is there are no strings attached to the object, and it seems nearly impossible for Guy Bavli to do a trick when there is a scientist testing him.

How does that necessarily equate to David C's doing the Statute of Liberty,
which is on the record. Nothing in the OP's statement says anything about a magician disproving the the Levitation Trick?

If I'm mistaken about it being a post hoc fallacy, please tell me which fallacy it is.
 
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