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Old 12th December 2015, 11:06 AM   #1961
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- You guys are partially right. I did know that "...she examined the CIQ in situ, font and back, by hand an eye, in various light sources (including backlighting)." But otherwise, she's claiming that any repair (except for the real invisible repair using the original cloth) can be detected by the naked eye. Yet, the study presented in Entry #2 claimed that when single threads from the Raes sample and C14 sample were examined under the microscope, certain anomalies did show up.
You are not an expert in textiles. You do not know the best way to detect whether a cloth has been patched. You just beg the question that a microscopic examination of fibers is somehow more revealing or probative. Even in the best of circumstances, "anomalies" are not even remotely the same thing as "patch." Marino and Prior are simply once again extending flimsy findings far beyond what is possible to know from them.
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Old 12th December 2015, 11:09 AM   #1962
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- You guys are partially right. I did know that "...she examined the CIQ in situ, font and back, by hand an eye, in various light sources (including backlighting)." But otherwise, she's claiming that any repair (except for the real invisible repair using the original cloth) can be detected by the naked eye. Yet, the study presented in Entry #2 claimed that when single threads from the Raes sample and C14 sample were examined under the microscope, certain anomalies did show up.
- Currently, I am doing the homework that everyone has suggested that I do, and I'll be back when I finish.
-
My Dear Mr. Savage:

This bit is, generously, an error. The very information you, yourself, provided about the "French" reweave (or the "invisible" reweave) stated outright that it could always be seen, by the naked eye, from the back of the fabric.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to quote, specifically, with citation, where Mme. F-L makes the claim that "...any repair (except for the real invisible repair using the original cloth) can be detected by the naked eye. " I, for one, do not believe that she ever said that, or implied it.

Not to mention, do you know what in situ means?

If there were, in fact, "certain anomalies" between threads obsevred to be taken from a contiguous bit of the manifestly medieval linen, and threads removed form the linen and handled in various ways by numerous people, of which of the threads would an honest researched be more suspect?
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Old 12th December 2015, 11:14 AM   #1963
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
...we humans (including Mme. F-L) are only human...
You don't get to simply insinuate that she must be in error. If you believe she erred in her findings, you must prove it. And judging from the past incarnations of this topic in this thread, you are patently unable to do so.

Further, the human errors (I daresay deliberate falsehoods) of your authors Marino and Prior have been belabored and acknowledged by you. Yet you resist any and all attempts to examine the authors you have postured as a credible summary of expert testimony. Your suspicion is flagrantly one-sided.

Quote:
...and we 'seekers of the truth' shouldn't...
You behave in no way as a seeker of truth. You behave in every way like someone desperate to prove a certain point at any cost, and wild unfounded aspersions ignorantly cast seems to be one of your common tricks.

Quote:
That sounds familiar...)
Elaborate.
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Old 12th December 2015, 11:26 AM   #1964
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- Was she able to look at both sides before the carbon dating? I don't think she was...
- (I have to admit that if I find out that she wasn't, I'll make an unkind suggestion, but we humans (including Mme. F-L) are only human, and we 'seekers of the truth' shouldn't simply dismiss an unkind possibility about someone simply because it is unkind. That sounds familiar...)
My dear Mr. Savage:

Are you going to suggest that the sampled area was ALL "...some patching", and that ALL of the "...patching" was taken up in the sample, leaving NONE on the CIQ itself; that the ENTIRE SAMPLE consisted of "...patching", and that NO ONE NOTICED the "...patching" while handling the sample?

You sir, have admitted that you are not a weaver, and have demonstrated that you do not understand fabric. I am a weaver, and a seamster. I understand fabric. I assure you that, had there been the kind of tapered and lapped "invisible" reweaving you keel hoping for, the very act of cutting through it would have been texturally patent.

You are grasping at straws, demonstrating once again that you are not seeking the truth about the CIQ, but seeking to support your assumed consequent.

You might also question whether you have the experience, the expertise, and the knowledge (not to mention the impartiality) to comment on Mme. F-L's abilities. You have already reviled her. You have already accused her of scientific misconduct, personal dishonesty, stupidity, cupidity, and incompetence. It is clear that you dislike her findings. What is not clear is whether you understand why insulting her does your case for your assumed consequent no good at all.

I also find it odd that you, who are so invested in your punctillio that you cannot even bear to identify how you, personally, claim to have been insulted, seem to be relishing and anticipating the mere possibility of saying something "unkind" about Mme. F-L.

Why not spend your time marshaling, and presenting, any skerrick of evidence you have that positively indicates that the CIQ is, in fact, ~2000 years old?
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Old 12th December 2015, 11:47 AM   #1965
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Was she able to look at both sides before the carbon dating? I don't think she was...

Jabba, less than half an hour earlier you had posted this:
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I did know that "...she examined the CIQ in situ, font and back, by hand an eye, in various light sources (including backlighting)."
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Old 12th December 2015, 02:21 PM   #1966
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- What exactly did these two experts do in their examination?
Jabba,

The following quote comes to mind:

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

In case you're wondering who I might be referring to here, it's you!
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Old 12th December 2015, 02:55 PM   #1967
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Jabba,

The following quote comes to mind:

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

In case you're wondering who I might be referring to here, it's you!
I thought for a moment you were saying the experts couldn't see the invisible patch as they were blinded by their Godless biases.
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Old 12th December 2015, 04:09 PM   #1968
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Jabba,

There are now 1,968 replies in this 4th iteration of the CIQ authenticity debate.

The best thing we have to look forward to is a fifth iteration, because you are getting nowhere.

Any response?
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Old 12th December 2015, 09:59 PM   #1969
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Originally Posted by Maurice Ledifficile View Post
What's with the cryptic talk? Can you say what you mean and mean what you say?

Time is up. You've admitted you need a miracle, which means you have abandoned any scientific leanings. Admit your position is based on faith.

I understand you love the idea of a thread going on ad vitam aeternam, but as a self professed christian, you should set the right example and try honesty.
In Jabba's defence, he isn't a self-professed Christian. He is a wanna-be Christian. That is, he can only be a Christian if Jesus really was who he said he was. Jabba was never specific about what exactly Jesus said about himself, but I suppose it was the word, the truth, and the way thing, whatever that means. Jabba can correct me if I'm wrong.

From that and from Jabba's occasional self-confessional posts, I got the impression that he needs the resurrection story to be true because he has some end-of-life issues and really wants to believe that he is somehow going to survive his own death. After all, if Jesus did, then why can't he? (Insert some silly Bayesian mental gymnastics here).

I've been following this thread and its previous incarnations and offshoots since 2012 and have been vastly entertained and educated by it. Thank you to those who possess more patience and forbearance than I currently have.

Back to lurking.
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Old 12th December 2015, 10:52 PM   #1970
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Originally Posted by Purple Pangolin View Post
In Jabba's defence, he isn't a self-professed Christian. He is a wanna-be Christian. That is, he can only be a Christian if Jesus really was who he said he was. Jabba was never specific about what exactly Jesus said about himself, but I suppose it was the word, the truth, and the way thing, whatever that means. Jabba can correct me if I'm wrong.

From that and from Jabba's occasional self-confessional posts, I got the impression that he needs the resurrection story to be true because he has some end-of-life issues and really wants to believe that he is somehow going to survive his own death. After all, if Jesus did, then why can't he? (Insert some silly Bayesian mental gymnastics here).

I've been following this thread and its previous incarnations and offshoots since 2012 and have been vastly entertained and educated by it. Thank you to those who possess more patience and forbearance than I currently have.

Back to lurking.
Before you go, has Jabba presented anything to make you think the shroud is authentic?
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Old 13th December 2015, 02:29 AM   #1971
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Originally Posted by Purple Pangolin View Post
In Jabba's defence, he isn't a self-professed Christian. He is a wanna-be Christian. That is, he can only be a Christian if Jesus really was who he said he was. Jabba was never specific about what exactly Jesus said about himself, but I suppose it was the word, the truth, and the way thing, whatever that means. Jabba can correct me if I'm wrong.

From that and from Jabba's occasional self-confessional posts, I got the impression that he needs the resurrection story to be true because he has some end-of-life issues and really wants to believe that he is somehow going to survive his own death. After all, if Jesus did, then why can't he? (Insert some silly Bayesian mental gymnastics here).

I've been following this thread and its previous incarnations and offshoots since 2012 and have been vastly entertained and educated by it. Thank you to those who possess more patience and forbearance than I currently have.

Back to lurking.
I agree with what you said.

By now, Jabba should have realised that this "discussion" is doing him no good whatsoever personally.

For his own beliefs, this place is the wrong place...
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Old 13th December 2015, 09:11 AM   #1972
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- Was she able to look at both sides before the carbon dating? I don't think she was...
- (I have to admit that if I find out that she wasn't, I'll make an unkind suggestion, but we humans (including Mme. F-L) are only human, and we 'seekers of the truth' shouldn't simply dismiss an unkind possibility about someone simply because it is unkind. That sounds familiar...)
We can safely dismiss any notion that you are seeking the truth.
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Old 13th December 2015, 09:30 AM   #1973
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Before you go, has Jabba presented anything to make you think the shroud is authentic?
No. I don't think he really does either, judging by all the waffling he does when he's really pressed to the wall. More than once I've seen him concede a point but then immediately retract it, sometimes even within the same sentence. It seems like such an odd thing to hang one's (wanna-be) religious hat on, when most of the religious people I know are content with something more personal like faith.

Back on topic, I was okay with the carbon-14 dating when it first came out, and other evidence presented in this thread and its previous incarnations have pretty much cemented my opinion that it's a medieval relic. It would take more than waffles to convince me otherwise.
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Old 13th December 2015, 10:13 AM   #1974
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Originally Posted by Purple Pangolin View Post
No. I don't think he really does either, judging by all the waffling he does when he's really pressed to the wall. More than once I've seen him concede a point but then immediately retract it, sometimes even within the same sentence. It seems like such an odd thing to hang one's (wanna-be) religious hat on, when most of the religious people I know are content with something more personal like faith.

Back on topic, I was okay with the carbon-14 dating when it first came out, and other evidence presented in this thread and its previous incarnations have pretty much cemented my opinion that it's a medieval relic. It would take more than waffles to convince me otherwise.
Even if you could have waffles with anything?

Oh - and welcome!
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Old 13th December 2015, 10:32 AM   #1975
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
Even if you could have waffles with anything?
I'd put up with a lot of nonsense for a plate of waffles, but even waffles with whipped cream and strawberries can't change the facts.

Quote:
Oh - and welcome!
Thank you! If I may get all fangirly for a moment, you are my favorite Wizzard .
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Old 13th December 2015, 10:50 AM   #1976
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Originally Posted by Purple Pangolin View Post
I'd put up with a lot of nonsense for a plate of waffles, but even waffles with whipped cream and strawberries can't change the facts.



Thank you! If I may get all fangirly for a moment, you are my favorite Wizzard .
Well, thank you kindly - I'm all embarrassed now...

Still - be as fangirly as you like!
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Old 13th December 2015, 11:07 AM   #1977
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Hey! You two! Get a room already!
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Old 13th December 2015, 11:21 AM   #1978
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Originally Posted by Purple Pangolin View Post
Thank you! If I may get all fangirly for a moment, you are my favorite Wizzard .

I thought he was a red-bearded dwarf.
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Old 13th December 2015, 11:30 AM   #1979
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Originally Posted by Purple Pangolin View Post
No. I don't think he really does either, judging by all the waffling he does when he's really pressed to the wall. More than once I've seen him concede a point but then immediately retract it, sometimes even within the same sentence. It seems like such an odd thing to hang one's (wanna-be) religious hat on, when most of the religious people I know are content with something more personal like faith.
Yeah, welcome!

Actually, I don't for one moment believe that Jabba is trying to find Jesus this way. It's just the same tactics as others we have seen coming on here saying "I am a firm skeptic, but I just need an explanation for ......"

It just gets a bit stale after so long. Jabba is a firm believer and is looking for something he can use to impress people who doubt. Not with much success, I might add...

Hans
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Old 14th December 2015, 01:52 AM   #1980
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
I thought he was a red-bearded dwarf.
Fascinating...

Thanks for that!
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Old 14th December 2015, 02:05 AM   #1981
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Originally Posted by Purple Pangolin View Post

Thank you! If I may get all fangirly for a moment, you are my favorite Wizzard .
There's only one Wizzard.
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Old 14th December 2015, 04:58 AM   #1982
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
There's only one Wizzard.
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I'm afraid that's self-evidently not true - there's him, and there's me!

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Old 14th December 2015, 06:11 AM   #1983
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
I'm afraid that's self-evidently not true - there's him, and there's me!

You may be a wizard (one 'z'), there is only one Wizzard (with two).

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Old 14th December 2015, 06:15 AM   #1984
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You may be a wizard (one 'z'), there is only one Wizzard (with two).

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What is the opinion of the wiz(z)arding world about the age of the CIQ?
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Old 14th December 2015, 06:17 AM   #1985
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You may be a wizard (one 'z'), there is only one Wizzard (with two).

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Nah - read the book: double "z"...

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Old 14th December 2015, 06:23 AM   #1986
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
What is the opinion of the wiz(z)arding world about the age of the CIQ?
We have the original in Ankh-Morpork - the one in Turin is, of course, a poor copy.

This original was created by the dwarves about xxx years ago.
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Old 14th December 2015, 06:38 AM   #1987
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
We have the original in Ankh-Morpork - the one in Turin is, of course, a poor copy.

This original was created by the dwarves about xxx years ago.
You are indeed correct. It is hanging in the Royal Art Museum to the left of Caravati's Three Large Pink Women and One Piece of Gauze.
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Old 14th December 2015, 07:12 AM   #1988
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You are indeed correct. It is hanging in the Royal Art Museum to the left of Caravati's Three Large Pink Women and One Piece of Gauze.
That's the one!

The reason for the anatomical oddities is that the subject was half dwarf, and half troll.

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Old 14th December 2015, 07:35 AM   #1989
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Carbon Dating/Doubts/Repair?/M&P/Entry #2

Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
My Dear Mr. Savage:

This bit is, generously, an error. The very information you, yourself, provided about the "French" reweave (or the "invisible" reweave) stated outright that it could always be seen, by the naked eye, from the back of the fabric.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to quote, specifically, with citation, where Mme. F-L makes the claim that "...any repair (except for the real invisible repair using the original cloth) can be detected by the naked eye. " I, for one, do not believe that she ever said that, or implied it...
Slowvehicle,
- Can you tell me where I, or the manual, stated outright that any repair (including repair with the original cloth) could always be seen, by the naked eye, from the back of the fabric?
- I don't know that she has ever said that repair with the original cloth could not, but I think she has, and I'm 99% sure that other "experts" have.
- I'll see what I can track down.
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Old 14th December 2015, 07:40 AM   #1990
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Can you tell me...
Your unfamiliarity with your own sources is not Slowvehicle's problem.

Quote:
I don't know that she has ever said that repair with the original cloth could not, but I think she has, and I'm 99% sure that other "experts" have.

I'll see what I can track down.
As long as you agree that it is your responsibility and no one else's to do so, and that your reliance on Marino and Prior does not satisfy that responsibility. Vague claims and second-hand reporting does not justify you to reopen this point.
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Old 14th December 2015, 07:44 AM   #1991
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Can you tell me where I, or the manual, stated outright that any repair (including repair with the original cloth) could always be seen, by the naked eye, from the back of the fabric?
Medieval repairs will be visible, Jabba.
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Old 14th December 2015, 08:26 AM   #1992
Craig4
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Medieval repairs will be visible, Jabba.
In fact, there are a number of complete hack jobs visible on the cloth. Seems odd the nuns would do an invisible repair on the edge and botch much more visible repairs elsewhere on the shroud.

Last edited by Craig4; 14th December 2015 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 14th December 2015, 08:38 AM   #1993
Filippo Lippi
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- Can you tell me where I, or the manual, stated outright that any repair (including repair with the original cloth) could always be seen, by the naked eye, from the back of the fabric?
- I don't know that she has ever said that repair with the original cloth could not, but I think she has, and I'm 99% sure that other "experts" have.
- I'll see what I can track down.
IIRC you rang a bloke who does "invisible mending;" read back through your mendacious posting history, if you can stomach it.
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Old 14th December 2015, 08:43 AM   #1994
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- Can you tell me where I, or the manual, stated outright that any repair (including repair with the original cloth) could always be seen, by the naked eye, from the back of the fabric?
.
It was in one or more of the previous threads on this topic. Post number such-and such. Hope That Helps!
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Old 14th December 2015, 08:43 AM   #1995
Slowvehicle
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- Can you tell me where I, or the manual, stated outright that any repair (including repair with the original cloth) could always be seen, by the naked eye, from the back of the fabric?
- I don't know that she has ever said that repair with the original cloth could not, but I think she has, and I'm 99% sure that other "experts" have.
- I'll see what I can track down.
My Dear Mr. Savage:

You, yourself, provided this information.

You, yourself, contacted a reweaving firm, and posted their materials.

You, yourself, even agreed with the material you posted--or, at least, for a time, seemed so to do.

All of which is immaterial in the light of Mme. F-L (who has the expertise you do not) stating unequivocally that "invisible" repairs are plainly visible on the back of the repaired cloth, and that no such repair had been seen on the manifestly medieval linen of the CIQ.

I remain,

Patiently yours &ct.
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Old 14th December 2015, 08:44 AM   #1996
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
IIRC you rang a bloke who does "invisible mending;" read back through your mendacious posting history, if you can stomach it.
Indeed, if all Jabba can "track down" is a replay of his previous debunked argument then there is nothing that requires repeated attention.
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Old 14th December 2015, 08:47 AM   #1997
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Indeed, if all Jabba can "track down" is a replay of his previous debunked argument then there is nothing that requires repeated attention.
Not to mention Mme. F-L's clear statement, presented above.
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Old 14th December 2015, 08:53 AM   #1998
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Seriously, Jabba: First-hand information from qualified people having handled the shroud says that there were no repairs in the C14 sample area.

Possibilities, speculations, and allegations cannot counter this. Unless you have expert-backed first-hand data indicating otherwise, this subject is dead. Stone dead. Forget it and move on.

Hans
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Old 14th December 2015, 09:40 AM   #1999
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
In fact, there are a number of complete hack jobs visible on the cloth. Seems odd the nuns would do an invisible repair on the edge and botch much more visible repairs elsewhere on the shroud.
And it just happens to be where they take the sample! Talk about rotten luck!
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Old 14th December 2015, 10:21 AM   #2000
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Apologies to the folks who want Jabba to do his own research. I was curious enough about the specifics of the technique to look for more info for my own knowledge, and then it seemed a waste not to share what I found.

Disclaimer: I’m a mediocre knitter, an abysmal seamstress and haven’t woven anything other than a placemat on a plastic loom when I was 6, so I welcome any corrections if my understanding of what I read is mistaken.

Hi Jabba,

In looking for more information about the French reweaving technique, I found this document with detailed instructions about the process. It has several images that may help you understand why a repair done using this technique will still be visible if one knows what to look for, even though it’s described as being an invisible repair technique.

Before we get to images, go to page 22 of the book (page 24 of the pdf) and read the text under the header The Problem of Extra Thickness.

Quote:
You will notice now that the “joined area” around the damaged places will have twice as many threads as before and will, therefore, feel thicker and more bulky.

The next steps explain how the replacement threads are anchored and how the extra thickness is made inconspicuous.
Note the use of the word “inconspicuous” rather than “invisible”.

If you scroll down to page 23 of the book (page 25 of the pdf), there’s Visualgram No. 6 at the top. That image shows how to begin the repair by starting the reweave several threads away from where the damaged area is. The reweave needs to overlap undamaged areas of the fabric to secure it. That’s the sort of thing that will make the end result visible.

Scroll down to the next page, page 24 of the book (page 26 of the pdf) and at the bottom of that page is Visualgram No. 7. As the caption under that photo explains, the ends of the broken thread are visible, the thread that goes all the way across is the replacement thread, and the area where there are two threads side by side is the join that anchors the repaired area in place.

Pages 26 and 27 of the book (pages 27 and 28 of the pdf) have Visualgram Nos. 8 and 9, demonstrating how the joins are staggered. Again, the rows where there are two threads overlapping are highly visible compared to the other single thread areas.

Finally, the loose ends of the broken threads need to be trimmed and the instructions for that are on page 30 of the book (32 of the pdf). The first and third paragraphs under Visualgraph No. 10 instruct that if the ends of the trimmed threads are visible on the right side of the fabric, they should be pushed through to the back. Those thread ends won’t be seen on the right side of the fabric at that point, but they will be visible from the back side of the fabric.

Regardless of the type of thread or the style of weave, these are the basic steps. There’s going to be some overlapping of threads and some ends that poke through to the reverse side. For a very fine weave using very fine threads, the overlap may indeed be invisible to the naked eye, from the right side at least. The Shroud of Turin, however, is not a fabric woven with what would be considered fine thread by today’s standards.

Front and back images (original source here, pages 4-5) showing the thread and weave pattern of the Shroud of Turin. Please note that individual threads are very easily visible at 1:1 magnification (that is, with no magnification at all) and it would be very obvious if any of those threads were overlapping or doubled up as would be necessary for the French reweaving technique, or if any of the broken ends had been pushed through to the reverse side.

Does that make sense, Jabba? French reweaving is invisible only in the sense that it is less visible than other methods of repairing woven fabric.
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