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Old 7th June 2016, 11:56 AM   #121
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No I didn't.

Really, turtle, this is getting pathetic even for you.
You are clear that getting this drunk (.32) is reckless and irresponsible. The rest flows from that. Want to talk about the actual judges decision about how merely raping a girl is no reason to ruin such a nice young mans life or do you only want to make it about how the victim had it coming thus making it ok that the rapist got a slap on the wrist?

Why even bring her up? As the rapist friend said after all this wasn't an actual rape rape. Legitimate rape is only when strangers attack sober women and as such is the only kind we need to care about, the more common forms of rape are not really legitimate as people consider them as the victim made bad choices either in how much to drink or in which man to allow herself to be alone with. Thus all her fault really.
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Old 7th June 2016, 11:58 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You are clear that getting this drunk (.32) is reckless and irresponsible. The rest flows from that.
It really doesn't. The problem is that you can't make the distinction between putting oneself at risk and commiting a crime against someone who has put themselves at risk.
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Old 7th June 2016, 12:01 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I don't mean this to sound callous, but it might, so sorry for that:

What on earth is the appeal in an unconscious woman? I don't get it. Removing, for a moment (and this is the callous bit) the fact that he clearly can't actually live by the rules of polite society, how much pleasure can one get from a 'partner' that's unconscious?
Conscious women can and do say no. Most of the time. Unconscious women, not so much. It's much the same as why some dudes use fleshlights, say.

That's enough for some.
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Old 7th June 2016, 12:07 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You are clear that getting this drunk (.32) is reckless and irresponsible.
These are not synonyms for inexcusable. And are you of the opinion that it is NOT reckless and irresponsible to get this drunk around strangers? Are you of the opinion that getting that drunk while surrounded by strangers is safe and responsible?

Quote:
Want to talk about the actual judges decision about how merely raping a girl is no reason to ruin such a nice young mans life or do you only want to make it about how the victim had it coming thus making it ok that the rapist got a slap on the wrist?
I never said she had it coming. Nor have I ever said that his actions were excusable, or that the sentence was sufficient. That's entirely your own fiction.

Quote:
Why even bring her up?
I brought up drinking because it's dangerous, this case demonstrates why it's dangerous, and young women should be better informed about its dangers. But apparently you don't want them to be. You object to any warnings which might actually keep them safe, because doing so it's politically correct.

Quote:
As the rapist friend said after all this wasn't an actual rape rape. Legitimate rape is only when strangers attack sober women and as such is the only kind we need to care about, the more common forms of rape are not really legitimate as people consider them as the victim made bad choices either in how much to drink or in which man to allow herself to be alone with. Thus all her fault really.
Yet more pathetic straw.
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Old 7th June 2016, 12:10 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I brought up drinking because it's dangerous, this case demonstrates why it's dangerous, and young women should be better informed about its dangers. But apparently you don't want them to be. You object to any warnings which might actually keep them safe, because doing so it's politically correct.
Ironically, this puts women in harm's way.
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Old 7th June 2016, 12:16 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Ironically, this puts women in harm's way.
It's only ironic if you assume that protecting women is the actual objective.

This assumption is probably wrong.
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Old 7th June 2016, 12:19 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
And the distinction is because of this "disregard for agency" thing, right? Which you believe represents an endemic and permanent condition of any individual who has exhibited it, and not a temporary state brought on by - for example - being very, very drunk?
No.

Quote:
A very drunk person fingering an unconscious person is clearly disregarding the victim's agency. Why do you believe that to be an inherent character flaw rather than a temporary (terrible) decision?
Sexual assault could raise to that level yes. If you would like to discuss that we may need a new thread though since that isn't the case here.

We are talking about isolating and disrobing a person who is well beyond consenting and then disrobing yourself to some extent and having sex with them. This is a multi-part assault that can hardly be termed "temporary". It required several steps, and several opportunities to turn back.

He was given a second chance, he was given a third chance, he was given multiple chances to stop short of rape. He didn't. And now he will have to pay the least possible penalty I can imagine.

And the local women will know not to bother bringing rape cases to the local police, because even if they have an open and shut case, which is tough enough with rape, the rapist is likely to get off with slap on the wrist.
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Old 7th June 2016, 12:35 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You are clear that getting this drunk (.32) is reckless and irresponsible.
0.32 now? Since it falls into the range of possible death, yeah, probably reckless and irresponsible. Carry on.
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Old 7th June 2016, 12:36 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Isn't that the point of drinks like a long island ice tea? To be made with such spirits with out then being as noticeable to the inbidder?
Are you seriously suggesting that she didn't know she was drinking alcohol?
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Old 7th June 2016, 12:46 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do you think he's a danger to society? If not, why 5 to 15? He made a very stupid decision and abused another person. I would hope that he won't repeat that mistake, but if he goes to prison after 15 he mightactually be worse than when he got in.
Quite possibly, yes. He has proved it once. Not agreeing or disagreeing with anything else.
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Old 7th June 2016, 01:03 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Are you seriously suggesting that she didn't know she was drinking alcohol?
I've made punch that tasted like a screwdriver but was closer to a hammer. Knowing that you are drinking and knowing what you are drinking are two different things.
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Old 7th June 2016, 01:04 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It really doesn't. The problem is that you can't make the distinction between putting oneself at risk and commiting a crime against someone who has put themselves at risk.
So how does her actions make it make sense for him to get a massively reduced sentence so that the crime he committed wouldn't overly impact his career?

It reminds me of this

College Basketball Star Heroically Overcomes Tragic Rape He Committed
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Old 7th June 2016, 01:06 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I brought up drinking because it's dangerous, this case demonstrates why it's dangerous, and young women should be better informed about its dangers. But apparently you don't want them to be. You object to any warnings which might actually keep them safe, because doing so it's politically correct.
Yes and punishing rapists is also more politically correct drivel.


Quote:
Yet more pathetic straw.
That was a summary of the letter his friend wrote to the court as a character reference. So it is rather relevant, as it helped him get this reduced sentence.
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Old 7th June 2016, 01:08 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Are you seriously suggesting that she didn't know she was drinking alcohol?
No, but how strong the drink was could well be unexpected. That is the point of many beverages after all to mask exactly how strong they are with more sugar and other strong flavors.
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Old 7th June 2016, 01:09 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I've made punch that tasted like a screwdriver but was closer to a hammer. Knowing that you are drinking and knowing what you are drinking are two different things.
How would you ever malign a fraternity that they might serve women drinks stronger than they seemed to be, for shame!
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Old 7th June 2016, 01:12 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes and punishing rapists is also more politically correct drivel.
I never said that.

You have nothing to offer except straw.

Quote:
That was a summary of the letter his friend wrote to the court as a character reference. So it is rather relevant, as it helped him get this reduced sentence.
It might be relevant to the thread, but it isn't relevant as a response to my post, and that's what you presented it as. You tried to imply that I was in agreement with this friend's letter. That's what makes it a straw man.
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Old 7th June 2016, 01:18 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Minor point: the victim was not a Stanford student. Just a girl who came to the party to get black-out drunk.
Nice victim blaming there. How do you know? Is the victim a personal friend of yours?
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Old 7th June 2016, 01:20 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I never said that.

You have nothing to offer except straw.



It might be relevant to the thread, but it isn't relevant as a response to my post, and that's what you presented it as. You tried to imply that I was in agreement with this friend's letter. That's what makes it a straw man.
You seem far more focused on what she did wrong and that than anything the rapist did or the judge did in refusing to ruin the life of this fine young man.
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Old 7th June 2016, 01:26 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by KatieG View Post
Nice victim blaming there.
Nothing of the sort. She was stupid, certainly, but only he was criminal. You don't blame crimes on the victim just because the victim was stupid.
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Old 7th June 2016, 01:39 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do you think he's a danger to society?
Yes.

This isn't an 8 year old who stole a pack of baseball cards from a convenience store because he didn't really know any better. This was an adult who should have known better. One that needs it impressed upon him how serious such an act is. A strong sentence can accomplish that.

But that's not the only consideration. Society itself needs to have how serious this was impressed upon it. Evidently. And a strong sentence would not simply be about reforming the young adult who is clearly deprived of a good education of the rights of other human beings, but also signaling to people at large that this is a very serious thing.
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Old 7th June 2016, 01:48 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You seem far more focused on what she did wrong and that than anything the rapist did or the judge did in refusing to ruin the life of this fine young man.
You seem far more focused on my one-line post about not getting drunk than anything the rapist or the judge did. What shall I infer from that?

And anyways, what business do you have in policing how much attention I spend on what topic? None, of course, but that's what you're retreating to now that your original complaint has completely cratered.
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Old 7th June 2016, 01:51 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by KatieG View Post
Nice victim blaming there. How do you know? Is the victim a personal friend of yours?
You're right, she may have only wanted to get drunk, not black-out drunk. Yet that's still what she did. And it isn't victim-blaming to note that getting drunk around strangers can be dangerous, as events proved. It's simply reality, uncomfortable as that may be.
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Old 7th June 2016, 02:00 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
I am heartened that when one guy was doing a bad thing, two other guys stopped it. I want my culture to oppose rather than facilitate bad acts.

Re: the bolded. That is usually the case now, if crime rates are any indication. Contrary to what media sensationalism may lead one to believe, violent crime rates in the U.S. are actually at forty-year lows. Society is much safer now than it was in the early 1990s (which is when crime rates peaked).
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Old 7th June 2016, 02:08 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
We are talking about isolating and disrobing a person who is well beyond consenting and then disrobing yourself to some extent and having sex with them. This is a multi-part assault that can hardly be termed "temporary". It required several steps, and several opportunities to turn back.
That doesn't match what I have read about the facts of the case. He fingered her; there wasn't sex.
Which doesn't make it not rape, but it does call into question this idea that he progressed through several elaborate steps before he was caught.
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Old 7th June 2016, 02:14 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
That doesn't match what I have read about the facts of the case. He fingered her; there wasn't sex.
Which doesn't make it not rape, but it does call into question this idea that he progressed through several elaborate steps before he was caught.
Then maybe we both need more facts. The interview I saw was of one of the cyclist who saw him humping her and then found a woman whose bra and panties were removed and whose dress was pulled down to expose her breasts and pulled up to expose her pelvic area. That seems to call into question that it was a temporary slip of his hand a bit high on her thigh.
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Old 7th June 2016, 02:14 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's only ironic if you assume that protecting women is the actual objective.

This assumption is probably wrong.
No one ever went broke erring on the side of cynicism.
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Old 7th June 2016, 02:16 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So how does her actions make it make sense for him to get a massively reduced sentence so that the crime he committed wouldn't overly impact his career?
I don't think that it does. Did Ziggurat recommend a lighter sentence because she was irresponsible?

Originally Posted by Tale View Post
Yes.

This isn't an 8 year old who stole a pack of baseball cards from a convenience store because he didn't really know any better. This was an adult who should have known better. One that needs it impressed upon him how serious such an act is. A strong sentence can accomplish that.

But that's not the only consideration. Society itself needs to have how serious this was impressed upon it. Evidently. And a strong sentence would not simply be about reforming the young adult who is clearly deprived of a good education of the rights of other human beings, but also signaling to people at large that this is a very serious thing.
Neither of us knows this guy in any way, so I will not speculate on whether he realises that this was a bad thing already. I also won't speculate on whether he's likely to do so again, and neither should you.
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Old 7th June 2016, 02:24 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It isn't all men, just clearly a majority of frat parties are rape focused...

Wow, that's a hell of an allegation there. Do you have any evidence to support it? Can you cite any studies demonstrating your assertion?


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Where do the double standards end?

That's a valid question. When will women, for example, receive sentences for crimes that are comparable to the sentences men typically get for comparable crimes? Or are you only focusing on some double standards and not others?


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes a 14 year old virgin is much more of a crime to rape than a 14 year old who is not a virgin anymore, just ask the judicial system. You can get an even bigger win if you hound the victim into committing suicide. These are all basic proven legal tactics.

You consider the above a logical and fact-based reply in support of the idea of a 'rape culture' in the United States? Wow.

Also, "proven legal tactics"? Care to cite examples from cases within, say, the last ten years, that unequivocally demonstrate these 'proven legal tactics' you allege? It feels like you're trapped in the 1980s (or earlier).


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The judge just didn't think he did anything that was worthy of punishing an upstanding young rapist that badly.

So the judge in this case handed out what you consider to be a far too lenient sentence. As I stated previously, if one looks one will find plenty of cases where convicted persons get what might seem to be a lenient sentence. If you want an infamous example from Canada, take a look at the deal Karla Homolka got in exchange for helping the Crown in the prosecution of Paul Bernardo; that deal in spite of Hololka's direct involvement in the crimes (which included drugging her own sister so Bernardo could sexually assault her).


Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I don't mean this to sound callous, but it might, so sorry for that:

What on earth is the appeal in an unconscious woman? I don't get it. Removing, for a moment (and this is the callous bit) the fact that he clearly can't actually live by the rules of polite society, how much pleasure can one get from a 'partner' that's unconscious?

For a few, it would seem, intercourse with a woman is intercourse with a woman, her involuntary participation notwithstanding.

I'm reminded of a scene from Animal House (released in 1978), where one of the frat guys is with a girl and she passes out drunk. The devil and angel versions of himself appear on his shoulders, with the devil version saying go ahead and have sex, and the angel version saying don't do such a thing. (In the end, he listens to his angel self.) So it's not as if the idea of possibly taking advantage of an incapacitated party is new.
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Old 7th June 2016, 02:29 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Then maybe we both need more facts. The interview I saw was of one of the cyclist who saw him humping her and then found a woman whose bra and panties were removed and whose dress was pulled down to expose her breasts and pulled up to expose her pelvic area. That seems to call into question that it was a temporary slip of his hand a bit high on her thigh.
No, he admits that he fingered her while dry humping. That's not a "slip of the hand." And the charges based on him having sex were dropped during the preliminary hearing - he was convicted of assault with intent to rape and of penetration with a foreign object (could just be the fingers).

He was very, very drunk. The facts are consistent with a clumsy start to an encounter. Thanks to the cyclist heroes, the rapist didn't actually get the chance to make the several more deliberate decisions you're talking about.
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Old 7th June 2016, 02:41 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
............
Neither of us knows this guy in any way, so I will not speculate on whether he realises that this was a bad thing already. I also won't speculate on whether he's likely to do so again, and neither should you.
Would you agree, that if he doesn't realize it's a bad thing, then he would be more likely to do it again?
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Old 7th June 2016, 03:52 PM   #151
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Quote:
penetration with a foreign object (could just be the fingers).
Pine needles. He was not only a drunken lout but a drunken clumsy lout. It injured the victim.
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Old 7th June 2016, 05:21 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Pine needles.
In her hair.
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Old 7th June 2016, 05:33 PM   #153
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Never mentioned me voicing consent, never mentioned us even speaking, a back rub. One more time, in public news, I learned that my ass and vagina were completely exposed outside, my breasts had been groped, fingers had been jabbed inside me along with pine needles and debris, my bare skin and head had been rubbing against the ground behind a dumpster, while an erect freshman was humping my half naked, unconscious body. But I donít remember, so how do I prove I didnít like
https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbake...MwE#.uhZvB1Nk2
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Old 7th June 2016, 06:38 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Would you agree, that if he doesn't realize it's a bad thing, then he would be more likely to do it again?
not after getting arrested for it already
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Old 7th June 2016, 06:50 PM   #155
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I was responding to the suggestion that he might not realize it was a bad thing...
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:08 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I was responding to the suggestion that he might not realize it was a bad thing...
Based on his idiot father's comments, I'd go so far as to say he was TAUGHT it wasn't a bad thing.
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:23 PM   #157
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Someone edited the letter written by the father to highlight the misogyny and ignorance shown therein. This, I think, showcases brilliantly just how ignorant and stupid that letter from Brock Turner's dad was.


Last edited by Sabrina; 7th June 2016 at 08:24 PM.
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:34 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yes, rape culture. In a culture that condemns rape and treats it as almost worse than murder.
Oh. I would say definitely worst. If this guy had went to this woman's home, doused her with gasoline and lit her on fire, he would not illicit near the reaction.
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:37 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by ZirconBlue View Post
He went way beyond "a very stupid decision."
If he said a very super duper stupid decision, would that have made you feel better?
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:38 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do you think he's a danger to society?
Do you think that someone who has committed a rape, is not remorseful, and believes he hasn't done anything wrong, is a danger to society?

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
..why 5 to 15?
Because sometimes punishment is about... punishment!!
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