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Old 8th June 2016, 09:47 AM   #241
AdamSK
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Your understanding of the issue "rape is a crime of violence not passion" is naive and incomplete.
Please complete it - with evidence, not just claims, if you don't mind.
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Old 8th June 2016, 09:49 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That's not very fair. I don't take well to being deliberatley strawmanned. It's not about winning. It's about setting things straight.
It always is, dear. It always is.
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Old 8th June 2016, 09:59 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Please complete it - with evidence, not just claims, if you don't mind.
It's a philosophical approach the very concept of "rape." What possible "evidence" from a forty year old notion would you like?

It isn't about looking at each and every rape case individually and checking one box or the other "yep, he was just horny" vs "yep, it was a violent attack." It was about women demanding that an unwanted and very personal assault on a woman's body without her permission be treated as Assault, not as a sexual transaction.

Touching another person without their permission is assault.

Taking a person's clothing off without their permission is assault.

Taking something from a person without their permission is theft.

Shoving dirty fingers and pine needles into a woman's orifice is assault with an object.

Rape is not a sexual transaction. It's an assault by one person on another, forcing them to do something they don't want to do.

If rape were a purely sexual transaction he should marry her or pay her a fair price for the good time. Would that be consistent with our cultural values?

Last edited by Jrrarglblarg; 8th June 2016 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:03 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
It isn't about looking at each and every rape case individually and checking one box or the other "yep, he was just horny" vs "yep, it was a violent attack." It was about women demanding that an unwanted and very personal assault on a woman's body without her permission be treated as Assault, not as a sexual transaction.
You seem very confused about his point, which had nothing to do with this. How the law responds is distinct from what motivates the crime. You are talking about the latter, he's talking about the former.

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If rape were a purely sexual transaction
Nobody is claiming that it is.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:07 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You seem very confused about his point, which had nothing to do with this. How the law responds is distinct from what motivates the crime. You are talking about the latter, he's talking about the former.
That is the entire point. It doesn't matter if the rapist was "just horny" or a complete psychopath: rape is an assault on a person. It's a crime of violence. It's taking from others without permission.

Quote:
Nobody is claiming that it is.
If you think a "just horny" rapist didn't commit a crime of violence by forcing himself on the victim, then yes, you are claiming the event was a purely sexual transaction. The "violence not passion" philosophy rejects a priori any and all claims the rapist might have that the victim "asked for it" or "wanted it" or "enjoyed it." Motivations are irrelevant.

Last edited by Jrrarglblarg; 8th June 2016 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:12 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
It's a philosophical approach the very concept of "rape." What possible "evidence" from a forty year old notion would you like?
The same that I'd like from anyone else who insists that certain things are true - evidence that supports the claim being made. How about survey of results from convicted offenders? A brain scan? Maybe some numbers showing that castrated men still rape at the same rate?

What evidence do you have? If you don't think this "forty year old notion" is backed by any evidence, why do you believe it?

Quote:
It isn't about looking at each and every rape case individually and checking one box or the other "yep, he was just horny" vs "yep, it was a violent attack." It was about women demanding that an unwanted and very personal assault on a woman's body without her permission be treated as Assault, not as a sexual transaction.
But that has nothing to do with whether the assailant's purpose was violence or sex. Robbery is still assault even if the only motivation for it is to get money. It doesn't become a "monetary transaction" rather than an assault just because the perpetrator had no particular interest in afflicting injury for its own sake. Rapists don't not become rapists just because they are not also sadists.

It makes no sense that you would want to perpetuate this myth if it's not actually true. Is it just because you want rapists to be more vilified in society?

I think it would be good to recognize that at least some rapes are the result of a strong desire for sex that motivates violent and despicable behavior (very often facilitated by impaired judgment), rather than wrongfully claiming that men only rape if their purpose is the violence itself. Because misunderstanding the motives for crime does not help us identify and prevent factors that lead to the crime.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:17 AM   #247
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I will, at this point, reassert post 238 and leave the thread. I have no further interest in discussing this with any of you.

Sorry I can't help you understand this topic better. Perhaps it's an indicator of how far we've come in 40 years from how it was before.

I will ignore and Ignore this thread. Nothing personal, it's the topic.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:17 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
That is the entire point. It doesn't matter if the rapist was "just horny" or a complete psychopath: rape is an assault on a person. It's a crime of violence. It's taking from others without permission.
It's true that it's a crime of violence, yes. But that's not "the entire point," because people are claiming that rapists are motivated by power rather than by sex. It is they (you) who are making a claim about the assailant's motives.


Quote:
The "violence not passion" philosophy rejects a priori any and all claims the rapist might have that the victim "asked for it" or "wanted it" or "enjoyed it."
And you are now claiming the myth is actually about the motives of the victim rather than the motives of the rapist. That's a new one on me. Are you sure you have this right?

Quote:
Motivations are irrelevant.
Then don't insist that you know the motivations.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:18 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
It always is, dear. It always is.
Well, people usually think they're right.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:19 AM   #250
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So you're saying my understanding is incomplete, but you refuse to provide any evidence that would complete it. The most you did is provide reasons why people might lie about it.

From everything that's been presented here, it certainly seems that I am not the one whose understanding is incomplete.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:19 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
It's a philosophical approach the very concept of "rape." What possible "evidence" from a forty year old notion would you like?

It isn't about looking at each and every rape case individually and checking one box or the other "yep, he was just horny" vs "yep, it was a violent attack." It was about women demanding that an unwanted and very personal assault on a woman's body without her permission be treated as Assault, not as a sexual transaction.

Touching another person without their permission is assault.

Taking a person's clothing off without their permission is assault.

Taking something from a person without their permission is theft.

Shoving dirty fingers and pine needles into a woman's orifice is assault with an object.

Rape is not a sexual transaction. It's an assault by one person on another, forcing them to do something they don't want to do.

If rape were a purely sexual transaction he should marry her or pay her a fair price for the good time. Would that be consistent with our cultural values?
I don't think that anyone considers rape a "sexual transaction", any more than armed robbery is a "financial transaction". It is obvious that a necessary feature of rape is that it involves no consent and hence is not a transaction of any sort.

The controversy is over claims like smartcooky's.

Quote:
Rape is not about sex its about violence and control.
It's not clear what "about" means here, but if it means that the rapist is not motivated by sexual urges, but only by urges to control or violent urges, the claim seems too broad. Surely, many rapes are fundamentally motivated by violence and control, but it's not at all obvious that no rapes are motivated by sexual urges.

In fact, it may be that the claim has become less plausible as our notion of rape has broadened. At one time, we thought of rape more or less purely in terms of violent stranger rape. Now, we recognize that less overtly violent non-consensual sex is properly considered rape. This is, of course, a good change, but it makes the claim that the fundamental motivation is in terms of control rather than any sexual desire rather less plausible.

So, in sum, I don't disagree with your claim that a defining feature of rape is the fact that the rapist takes control, without consideration of the victim's interests. This is obviously true. It is not a "sexual transaction". The debate is whether the fundamental motivation is sometimes a sexual urge on the part of the rapist. I don't know that we can easily settle this controversy.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:20 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
That is the entire point. It doesn't matter if the rapist was "just horny" or a complete psychopath: rape is an assault on a person. It's a crime of violence. It's taking from others without permission.
That is YOUR point, but it wasn't Adam's. And his point doesn't contradict your point.

Quote:
If you think a "just horny" rapist didn't commit a crime of violence by forcing himself on the victim
Nobody has suggested that. If you thought Adam was trying to say that, then you have badly misunderstood him.

Quote:
The "violence not passion" philosophy rejects a priori any and all claims the rapist might have that the victim "asked for it" or "wanted it" or "enjoyed it." Motivations are irrelevant.
Evidently you misunderstand not only Adam, but the feminist claim that he was addressing as well. The claim that rape is about power and not sex is NOT a claim that motivation is irrelevant. It is specifically a claim about what that motive is, precisely because those making the argument believed that the motive DID matter.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:22 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Sorry I can't help you understand this topic better.
I'm sorry you're unwilling to learn anything.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:25 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm sorry you're unwilling to learn anything.
I'm sorry he won't engage this, too. It would be nice to have someone explain just what evidence exists that might support this idea, if at any point some feminist bothered to come up with some.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:27 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
I will ignore and Ignore this thread. Nothing personal, it's the topic.
I entirely understand. If a rape thread goes in certain directions I have to bow out as well.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:33 AM   #256
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There seems to be a disease, which is not isolated to the Internet, that causes some people to immediately respond to any story about a rape with how the victim should have been acting to prevent being raped.

It's not unique to rape and happens with other crime stories but it seems particularly vile in this context, like saying that if WTC 9/11 victims had been smart they would have worked in smaller buildings.

"If she didn't want to get raped, she shouldn't have gotten drunk in proximity to heterosexual men!" "I'm not blaming her, I'm just saying she's stupid."
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:33 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That is YOUR point, but it wasn't Adam's. And his point doesn't contradict your point.
It's ironic that I get accused of trying to win the internet when some people are making such an effort to disagree with others, blowing up disagreement over details to pretend like they're saying something entirely different.

Quote:
Nobody has suggested that.
That could be the title of this thread, or at the very least a tag.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:55 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
There seems to be a disease, which is not isolated to the Internet, that causes some people to immediately respond to any story about a rape with how the victim should have been acting to prevent being raped.

It's not unique to rape and happens with other crime stories but it seems particularly vile in this context, like saying that if WTC 9/11 victims had been smart they would have worked in smaller buildings.

"If she didn't want to get raped, she shouldn't have gotten drunk in proximity to heterosexual men!" "I'm not blaming her, I'm just saying she's stupid."
Because it is a highly emotional topic, where people fail to distinguish between discussions of risk versus culpability.

( i.e. to use a mugging example: if a guy wishes to lower his risk of getting mugged, he might consider not walking down dark alleys. That doesn't mean that any moral culpability would be on him if he did walk down a dark alley and get mugged (in a free country, he should absolutely have the right to walk down that alley unmolested). The moral culpability would all be on the mugger. )

Criminal sanctions should not be lessened just because the victim hadn't made all the 'safe' decisions. Comments on safe practices for the victim should be about future risk-management for others, not as mitigating circumstances for the offender.



FWIW (in this case), the mere 6 month sentence and the effrontery of the father's letter are mind blowing. One does wonder if the judge had significantly more empathy for the rapist than for the victim.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:01 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
The debate is whether the fundamental motivation is sometimes a sexual urge on the part of the rapist. I don't know that we can easily settle this controversy.
Well, it's a "debate" and "controversy" based on a semantic nitpick. And very few people argue so passionately over a semantic nitpick without some underlying agenda. Then again, some people are just contrarian ******** who need to be right all time (I have often been accused of this affliction, and probably rightly so).
Edited by Agatha:  edited to comply with rule 10


Either way, I bet there are better causes for these Crusaders for Truth and Justice to champion than establishing a fair representation of a rapist's motives.

Last edited by Agatha; 8th June 2016 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:03 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Because it is a highly emotional topic, where people fail to distinguish between discussions of risk versus culpability.

( i.e. to use a mugging example: if a guy wishes to lower his risk of getting mugged, he might consider not walking down dark alleys. That doesn't mean that any moral culpability would be on him if he did walk down a dark alley and get mugged (in a free country, he should absolutely have the right to walk down that alley unmolested). The moral culpability would all be on the mugger. )

Criminal sanctions should not be lessened just because the victim hadn't made all the 'safe' decisions. Comments on safe practices for the victim should be about future risk-management for others, not as mitigating circumstances for the offender.
But why does it need to come up at all, ever? In your "dark alley" example, no doubt hundreds or thousands of people have walked down a particular "dark alley" unmolested. Unless you can produce something beyond anecdotal evidence, advising someone to "avoid dark alleys" in order to prevent being mugged isn't really rational.

Similarly, if someone gets raped after getting drunk at a frat party, presumably that's the only person who was raped under those circumstances at that frat party, and maybe the only person who was raped under those circumstances in that general vicinity for a number of years. So, even advising women not to get drunk at that particular frat wouldn't be rational unless you're making a more general anti-alcohol point.

ETA: Muggings and rapes are caused by someone having evil intent. Everything else is window dressing, either to make people [unjustifiably] feel safer ("I'm glad that will never happen to me because I'm smart") or to blame the victim.

Last edited by Babbylonian; 8th June 2016 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:03 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nope, not even that.

You have been wrong at every single step. And yet you never learn. It's almost impressive.
From your first post the only people who have gone after in this case is the victim. Your first post that did anything more than point out this was at a liberal university was to lament that people don't like you blaming her for her horrible decisions. Go back and look.

Clearly you have no problems with the fathers letter or the judges decision as if you didn't support them you would comment on them, instead of blaming her in all your discussion.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:11 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Well, it's a "debate" and "controversy" based on a semantic nitpick. And very few people argue so passionately over a semantic nitpick without some underlying agenda. Then again, some people are just contrarian ******** who need to be right all time (I have often been accused of this affliction, and probably rightly so).
Edited by Agatha:  edited to comply with rule 10


Either way, I bet there are better causes for these Crusaders for Truth and Justice to champion than establishing a fair representation of a rapist's motives.
The difference between "control is a necessary feature of rape" and "rape is motivated by a desire for control" is not, I think, a nitpick.

I'm not sure that I'm arguing passionately over this so-called nitpick, but I invite you to tell me what my agenda might be.

Last edited by Agatha; 8th June 2016 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:12 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
From your first post the only people who have gone after in this case is the victim.
1) I didn't go after the victim.
2) It was one post, and would have been only one post, had you not made a big deal out of it.
3) Very often I don't bother posting about an issue when other posts cover that material adequately.

Quote:
Clearly you have no problems with the fathers letter or the judges decision as if you didn't support them you would comment on them
That is false. Again, I often don't comment on something when I feel other posts cover it adequately. It feels like a waste of time to simply say "me too!". Unless I say that I'm OK with the father's letter or the judge's decision, then you have no business concluding that I am.

But you have yet again proven that all you have to offer are straw men.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:13 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
But why does it need to come up at all, ever? In your "dark alley" example, no doubt hundreds or thousands of people have walked down a particular "dark alley" unmolested. Unless you can produce something beyond anecdotal evidence, advising someone to "avoid dark alleys" in order to prevent being mugged isn't really rational.
It's a matter of statistical risk. You're more likely to die if you don't wear your seatbelt, but if you haven't had an accident yet you could use the same logic to say that you don't need to be careful because you've done hundreds of trips without problem.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:15 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It's a matter of statistical risk.
Then I'm sure you have the applicable statistical analysis right at hand.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:33 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Then I'm sure you have the applicable statistical analysis right at hand.
I didn't make the claim. I'm simply explaining the nature of Adam's position as I understand it.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:36 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
The difference between "control is a necessary feature of rape" and "rape is motivated by a desire for control" is not, I think, a nitpick.

I'm not sure that I'm arguing passionately over this so-called nitpick, but I invite you to tell me what my agenda might be.
Nothing in my post was directed at you personally. Like yourself, I was merely commenting on the nature of the debate.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:41 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
It's not unique to rape and happens with other crime stories but it seems particularly vile in this context, like saying that if WTC 9/11 victims had been smart they would have worked in smaller buildings.
It's more like saying if you don't want to be captured and beheaded by ISIS, you shouldn't be living in Iraq right now.

Quote:
"I'm not blaming her, I'm just saying she's stupid."
"She did something stupid" != "She is stupid." In any crime, if a person acted recklessly with respect to their own safety or the safety of others, it should be pointed out with a warning to "not do that."

If, specifically in the case of rape, people were less adamant to make accusations of "victim-blaming," then such warnings would be one or two posts in a thread rather than a major discussion point.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:41 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Nothing in my post was directed at you personally. Like yourself, I was merely commenting on the nature of the debate.
Okay, fair enough. Perhaps I was being defensive.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:52 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Muggings and rapes are caused by someone having evil intent. Everything else is window dressing, either to make people [unjustifiably] feel safer ("I'm glad that will never happen to me because I'm smart") or to blame the victim.
Are you disputing the variety of studies that strongly correlate alcohol use with sexual assault? "Getting drunk in public increases the risk of sexual assault" is not an empty claim; it's one of the strongest risk factors. Alcohol use is strongly associated with assailants of sexual assault as well as victims.

Saying "don't get really drunk at a college frat party" is danger-signalling based on both anecdote and corroborated studies, not victim-blaming.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:56 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Whatever your motivation, your attitude, to my mind is horrific. For what it's worth (somewhere between very little and nothing, I suspect) I cannot express adequately how broken and unworthy of consideration I consider that view and those that take it.
We all have our crosses to bear, I learned hate for things like that early. On the bright side I doubt very seriously that I would ever need to feel that way about you!!

If it helps (and I expect it does not), I learned punishments from the Brothers Grimm. The real stories as they wrote/transcribed them, not the "cleaned up" rewrites. I believe evil deserves responsible evil in return.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:59 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I am not the one saying that going to these parties is totally irresponsible for women and comparing them to leaving your car unlocked and the keys in the ignition in a dangerous neighboorhood. So clearly they are rape centers in many peoples minds.

Ah, so evidence is unnecessary, because people's perceptions are always correct and in accordance with the facts. Okay then.


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.1778291

Or how about a one month jail sentence for raping a 14 year old who then kills herself?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...cing/16276429/

But she was a mature 14 so it was all really not a big deal of course

Now how about citing all those cases where the sentence was appropriate to the crime according to legal statutes and precedent, as well as citing all those cases where the sentence was harsher than would otherwise be typical.

You are basically citing exceptions as if they are the rule. That looks to me like you are engaging in confirmation bias.


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly we have to stop thinking of rape as a serious crime deserving of serious punishment.

You apparently missed the point entirely. Once more: exceptions are not the rule.
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Old 8th June 2016, 12:05 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Are you disputing the variety of studies that strongly correlate alcohol use with sexual assault?
How can I possibly dispute that which has not been presented?

What I am in dispute with are the condescending, evidence-free "warnings" you and yours are so kind to offer women in an effort to prevent rapists from attacking them.

This new temperance movement with the sole intention to reduce rape is admirable...even if it will do little to nothing to reduce rape.
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Old 8th June 2016, 12:21 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
"She did something stupid" != "She is stupid." In any crime, if a person acted recklessly with respect to their own safety or the safety of others, it should be pointed out with a warning to "not do that."
What exactly was her stupid action?
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Old 8th June 2016, 12:21 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
What I am in dispute with are the condescending, evidence-free "warnings" you and yours are so kind to offer women in an effort to prevent rapists from attacking them.
No, trust me - when I actually warn women not to go get drunk at frat parties, I send them studies (if they're science-minded) or newspaper accounts of incidents (if they are science-challenged).
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Old 8th June 2016, 12:22 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
This new temperance movement with the sole intention to reduce rape is admirable...even if it will do little to nothing to reduce rape.

I think the term "Neo-Puritans" fits, as it just isn't about sexual crimes, but the puritanism is showing up in other areas, such as the alleged 'sexism' in video games. Borrowing from Orwell, some seem to be advocating for what amounts to the Junior Anti-Sex League.

It is worth repeating that, according to the FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting database, the crime of rape is at a forty-year low. (Similarly decades-low rates are being recorded for other violent crimes as well.) Yet, according to some, it would seem rape (and other violent crimes) have never been worse. This is demonstrably false, as the evidence shows.
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Old 8th June 2016, 12:22 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Are you disputing the variety of studies that strongly correlate alcohol use with sexual assault? "Getting drunk in public increases the risk of sexual assault" is not an empty claim; it's one of the strongest risk factors. Alcohol use is strongly associated with assailants of sexual assault as well as victims.

Saying "don't get really drunk at a college frat party" is danger-signalling based on both anecdote and corroborated studies, not victim-blaming.
And given the nature of frat parties that means women shouldn't drink at all at frat parties. Or only drink things that come in sealed containers. Any kind of punch or mixed drink is right out.
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Old 8th June 2016, 12:22 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What exactly was her stupid action?
Drinking enough to have a 0.24 BAC.
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Old 8th June 2016, 12:23 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Ah, so evidence is unnecessary, because people's perceptions are always correct and in accordance with the facts. Okay then.
Take it up with those so quick to go after her for "bad decisions".
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Old 8th June 2016, 12:25 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Drinking enough to have a 0.24 BAC.
So how do you measure your alcohol intake precisely at parties? Mixing drinks that are stronger than they seem is a college tradition after all.
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