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Old 24th July 2016, 08:57 PM   #41
Tony Stark
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Originally Posted by Dog Town View Post
Oddly enough the person you are replying to in the above quote, found it OK for HRC to use a cowboy server. Reason most used was her opponents might use it against her. The hell, with FOIA! Not to mention the speeches to wall street.

I love the hypocrite irony around here.
The Republican Director of the FBI swore under oath that (he believes) she did it because it was convenient.
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Old 24th July 2016, 08:59 PM   #42
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Trump is like Denny Crane without Cranes brains and personality
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Old 24th July 2016, 09:07 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I don't know what is or isn't in his taxes. They seem to be of interest to his political opponents. That's enough reason not to release them.
Lalalalalalala I can't hear you? That's your answer?

We all know what's in them, it's not like there are a whole lot of possibilities. Either he's lying about his actual net worth and he's lying about his charitable contributions or he's lying to the IRS about his net worth. Either way he's cheating someone, the voters or the other taxpayers.

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I was counting his opponents in the primary as "pros."
I realize that, I just beg to differ. They missed many golden opportunities with bad decisions.

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As to his character, I think you can fill mouths from either side with the same words. They lose their meaning. Every "Trump is a jerk with a serious personality disorder" is balanced by "Hillary is a jerk with a serious personality disorder." Maybe the difference is in how skilled they are at lying to us.

Would I rather have a salesman whose lies I can detect or a salesman whose lies sneak past me until they explode later on?
Yet you think you detect Trump lies but your posts scream otherwise.
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Old 24th July 2016, 09:11 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
If one of the strongest planks in his platform is "elect me because I am a successful businessman," then the public has a right to know how successful he really is.
And the existing indicia aren't enough?

He's being audited isn't he? If there's something criminal he'll be charged. But even if it's just shadowy, semi-criminal stuff, it would still not amount to what's being said about Hillary trading money for influence with foreign nationals/governments. One is criminal, the other traitorous.

I don't really feel I should be burdened with defending every criticism against Trump. The OP asked about people who will be voting for the guy and I just wanted to be helpful/sociable.

It seems like almost every election I can remember we all go into this panic mode where one candidate or the other is going to totally ruin America. We get like that. We got like that with Obama. It says much more about the electorate than the candidates.
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Old 24th July 2016, 09:13 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
And the existing indicia aren't enough?

He's being audited isn't he? If there's something criminal he'll be charged. But even if it's just shadowy, semi-criminal stuff, it would still not amount to what's being said about Hillary trading money for influence with foreign nationals/governments. One is criminal, the other traitorous.

I don't really feel I should be burdened with defending every criticism against Trump. The OP asked about people who will be voting for the guy and I just wanted to be helpful/sociable.

It seems like almost every election I can remember we all go into this panic mode where one candidate or the other is going to totally ruin America. We get like that. We got like that with Obama. It says much more about the electorate than the candidates.
Prove that Hillary has accepted bribes from foreign nationals.

No, their charity that she doesn't personally benefit from is not proof.
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Old 24th July 2016, 09:29 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Prove that Hillary has accepted bribes from foreign nationals.

No, their charity that she doesn't personally benefit from is not proof.
I can't prove it at all. No more than I could prove Trump cheated on his taxes.

I'm a typical voter who only has the celebrity cut-out presented to me as a basis for a decision. It's about like trying to figure out if Bill Cosby did all the stuff he's accused of, some of it, or none.

And bias rules the field. If I already believe a candidate has certain attributes, I will be sensitive to confirming evidence - even fairly shoddy allegations. "Seems like something they would do."
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Old 24th July 2016, 09:41 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Well, crap. This is going exactly as I hoped it wouldn't. Silly me.

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It's your side that's ruining it. They're essentially doing the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and going "nyah nyah nyah." It's to your credit that you're disappointed in them. Or maybe not. I expected it actually.
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Old 24th July 2016, 09:43 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
It's your side that's ruining it. They're essentially doing the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and going "nyah nyah nyah." It's to your credit that you're disappointed in them. Or maybe not. I expected it actually.
Ok, tell me what's good about Trump.

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Old 24th July 2016, 09:43 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
...

It seems like almost every election I can remember we all go into this panic mode where one candidate or the other is going to totally ruin America. We get like that. We got like that with Obama. It says much more about the electorate than the candidates.
Bush came damn close.

I see no evidence anyone who thought Obama would have a shred of evidence supporting their fear mongering.
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Old 24th July 2016, 09:46 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Ok, tell me what's good about Trump.

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He would give huge tax cuts to people like him (well assuming he actually pays taxes).

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Old 24th July 2016, 09:47 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
And the existing indicia aren't enough?

He's being audited isn't he? If there's something criminal he'll be charged. But even if it's just shadowy, semi-criminal stuff, it would still not amount to what's being said about Hillary trading money for influence with foreign nationals/governments. One is criminal, the other traitorous.

I don't really feel I should be burdened with defending every criticism against Trump. The OP asked about people who will be voting for the guy and I just wanted to be helpful/sociable.
When I read the OP I promised myself I would not argue specific points about reasons to vote for Trump. I broke my promise on the first page.

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It seems like almost every election I can remember we all go into this panic mode where one candidate or the other is going to totally ruin America. We get like that. We got like that with Obama. It says much more about the electorate than the candidates.
Yes. It is very common. People talking about the end of our country.
But there is one objective difference that has not occurred in modern history. This time a candidate is being bad mouthed by large numbers of people in his own party.
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Old 24th July 2016, 09:48 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
He would give you tax cuts to people like him (well assuming he actually pays taxes).
I wasn't asking you.

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Old 24th July 2016, 09:50 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I wasn't asking you.

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I know, just saying.
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Old 24th July 2016, 09:51 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
I know, just saying.
Stop saying. Multiple other threads for that.

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Old 24th July 2016, 09:54 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Stop saying. Multiple other threads for that.

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Since I like you, ok.
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Old 24th July 2016, 10:02 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Stop saying. Multiple other threads for that.

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You're fighting a losing battle. It's a discussion forum. If the Trump supporters want to give their rationalizations for their support, they've had plenty of opportunity to do so. It's nice of you to offer them a platform, but do you expect anything more than the constant bobbing and weaving that you've seen over the past year-and-a-half? And you can't stop people from weighing in on the topic of politics.
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Old 24th July 2016, 10:02 PM   #57
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Me sad. But not surprised.

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Old 24th July 2016, 10:06 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Ok, tell me what's good about Trump.

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I'm going to sleep, but I have posted the fundamental justification for his candidacy before.
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Old 24th July 2016, 10:08 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I'm going to sleep, but I have posted the fundamental justification for his candidacy before.
Do you really believe that there is any chance that Republicans would be OK with removing him from office?
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Old 24th July 2016, 10:15 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Do you really believe that there is any chance that Republicans would be OK with removing him from office?
Are you kidding me? Of course. He would be, by far, the most impeachable President of the modern era. Ironically, it might be the Democrats who would block his impeachment under some scenarios. Trump would be on the shortest leash of any President in living memory. He would almost certainly have the effect of diminishing the power of the Executive branch relative to the Legislative. Which would be a good thing in my opinion. The Executive has grown way too powerful, and it has been a steady increase with each successive administration since FDR.
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Old 24th July 2016, 10:19 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Arg9 View Post
Because the "insiders" are owned by those with the power, media control, and $$$ which is why nothing is changing

Including the continuing decline in violent crimes? The decline in illegal immigration? The recovery of the economy? The steady decline in police deaths? The fact that fewer than 100 Americans have been killed by foreign terrorists since 9/11/01? The recognition of the civil rights of tens of millions of Americans, previously denied because of their sexual orientation? The worldwide decline in violent conflict?



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and why Trump has appeal. His rise is an example of desperation from the voters.

Well, I agree with that. Trump's appeal lays in the misconceptions his supporters have about the state of the nation.


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What is interesting is all voters for Hillary that want change but deny she is owned. That we know of, Trump isn't owned. But he exhibits characteristics of a tyrant which is risky and cause for alarm. But now we know Hillary is "above the law" so who do you think really has more of a chance for being a tyrant?

These accusations are made, but then tend to disappear when specifics are required. What laws has Mrs. Clinton broken? Even the director of the FBI admitted he couldn't make a convincing criminal case. No other crimes have been ever been clearly stated.

But if you're asking whom I think would be a tyrant, I think it's the person who never mentions Congress or how he would get any of his policies enacted. I think it's the person who claims that only he can fix whatever he says is wrong with America. I think it's the candidate who lashes out against any individual whom he supposes has wronged him - from journalists to judges. I think it's the person who easily believes conspiracy theories about 9/11, the JFK assassination, the President's birthplace, the secret plans of the Mexican government to export their criminals, and more. I think it's the person who has expressed admiration for tyrants like Putin and Kim Jon Un. I think it's the person who knows so little about the workings of American government that he could not identify an Article of the Constitution, promised to "swamp" a single Supreme Court Justice with "real lawyers and real opinions," and insisted that the military would follow his orders even if they were illegal. Oh, also the guy who thinks murdering the families of terrorists would be both: a) a good idea; and b) in any way legal. I'm pretty sure the tyrant will be someone who blames all of his country's problem on small, easily-identifiable minority populations. That's who I think has the better chance of being a tyrant.



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If the downward spiral we've been in is going to stop,

Evidence of a downward spiral?
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Old 24th July 2016, 10:20 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Are you kidding me? Of course. He would be, by far, the most impeachable President of the modern era. Ironically, it might be the Democrats who would block his impeachment under some scenarios. Trump would be on the shortest leash of any President in living memory. He would almost certainly have the effect of diminishing the power of the Executive branch relative to the Legislative. Which would be a good thing in my opinion. The Executive has grown way too powerful, and it has been a steady increase with each successive administration since FDR.
I disagree.

If Trump wins, he will be untouchable in this highly polarized climate. Republicans will let him do pretty much whatever he wants because their crazy moron bigot voters would be very upset otherwise. He would have to do something way worse than what Nixon did to be removed from office (say be caught red handed taking bribes from Putin).


ETA: there might be some decent Republicans (Senator Jeff Flake, for example), but not enough to actually fire him.

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Old 24th July 2016, 10:23 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Are you kidding me? Of course. He would be, by far, the most impeachable President of the modern era. Ironically, it might be the Democrats who would block his impeachment under some scenarios. Trump would be on the shortest leash of any President in living memory. He would almost certainly have the effect of diminishing the power of the Executive branch relative to the Legislative. Which would be a good thing in my opinion. The Executive has grown way too powerful, and it has been a steady increase with each successive administration since FDR.
Sorry Trebuchet.

So if your Minister of Propaganda, 16.5, was here to spin this....

That's a helluva campaign slogan. Trump in '16. Ready for impeachment. And promotion of a paleo-conservative no one's ever heard of to the presidency.
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Old 24th July 2016, 10:35 PM   #64
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I've voted republican for the past 5 presidential cycles. I will not this time. Not contributing to the point of the thread, but I am part of the reason it won't be Trump.
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Old 24th July 2016, 10:58 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by whatsthedreamnow View Post
I've voted republican for the past 5 presidential cycles. I will not this time. Not contributing to the point of the thread, but I am part of the reason it won't be Trump.
As an in the closet liberal Democrat at my Country Club, I hear that a lot this year. (Don't tell anyone)
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Old 25th July 2016, 12:35 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
It's a matter of pride that we do not consider foreign opinions about the candidates we vote for. In this, their opinions do not matter. And why should they? If I'm in Brazil, I care about what's good for Brazil, not the US. Symmetry.
That sort of view is proving extremely unwise in this day and age. It's not the isolationism being objected to if it were informed isolationism. But it's not. It is the willful ignorance of the world around you and your place in it that is so galling.

Here's the point: Other countries are affected by US foreign policies. Best example: the TPP. Were you aware it is not just China and the USA involved in this, but a whole slew of Far Eastern tiger economies plus allies like Australia? So the notion of "telling China to go suck it" by cancelling the TPP in the mistaken notion that it will create US jobs again is almost laughable.

The reality would be something like the USA being shut out of the biggest economy in the world (so no trade, thus no new US jobs), and China calling in all its US loans (and that's really gonna smart!). Other economies like the EU and UK would start to balk on commitments to the US and actively look to take over the trade where the USA walked away. There is much lose to be had. Finally, your allies in the region, of which we are one, could be looking to other sources of trade and partnerships.

Also consider: Indonesia and Malaysia are major trading partners in the region. Many of your computer chips come from there. But they are Muslim countries, by and large, the biggest number of Muslims on the planet, and they are not keen to be treated like Trump treats his workers. So it takes genuine diplomacy to deal with them successfully. But Trump's idea of "diplomacy" seems to be to send all the wrong messages and hit all the wrong buttons. Things could go horribly wrong.

So your "internal" choice does have a whole lot of external outcomes. Vote wisely...
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Old 25th July 2016, 12:42 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
That sort of view is proving extremely unwise in this day and age. It's not the isolationism being objected to if it were informed isolationism. But it's not. It is the willful ignorance of the world around you and your place in it that is so galling.

Here's the point: Other countries are affected by US foreign policies. Best example: the TPP. Were you aware it is not just China and the USA involved in this, but a whole slew of Far Eastern tiger economies plus allies like Australia? So the notion of "telling China to go suck it" by cancelling the TPP in the mistaken notion that it will create US jobs again is almost laughable.

The reality would be something like the USA being shut out of the biggest economy in the world (so no trade, thus no new US jobs), and China calling in all its US loans (and that's really gonna smart!). Other economies like the EU and UK would start to balk on commitments to the US and actively look to take over the trade where the USA walked away. There is much lose to be had. Finally, your allies in the region, of which we are one, could be looking to other sources of trade and partnerships.

Also consider: Indonesia and Malaysia are major trading partners in the region. Many of your computer chips come from there. But they are Muslim countries, by and large, the biggest number of Muslims on the planet, and they are not keen to be treated like Trump treats his workers. So it takes genuine diplomacy to deal with them successfully. But Trump's idea of "diplomacy" seems to be to send all the wrong messages and hit all the wrong buttons. Things could go horribly wrong.

So your "internal" choice does have a whole lot of external outcomes. Vote wisely...
China is not part of the TPP. Obama says that if not for it it, China will set the rules.

To be honest, I am very conflicted about it. I respect President Obama more than I do my own father. But on the other hand I hate Republicans and many of them are in favor. And then again, the devil himself (Donald Trump) is opposed.

****.

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Old 25th July 2016, 12:55 AM   #68
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Here's why I'll probably end up voting for Trump:

1)I agree with his view of immigration: we have to secure the border and clamp down on the people we allow to come into the country. I am not an advocate of the open borders that so many on the left seem to want.
2)I like the way he just says things the way he wants to say them; he has no political filter. I don't always agree but at least he's telling me what he really thinks and not just what I want to hear.
3)He is business-friendly and mostly aligns with my view of economics
4)He opposes the ACA and coming from the business world, might have some better ideas about running the healthcare system
5)I can't vote for Hillary and I am debating whether or not to vote for the Libertarians instead; I'm torn between wanting to support a 3rd party candidate and not wanting to "throw my vote away."
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Old 25th July 2016, 12:56 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
... Here's another evaluation point. Both Hillary and Trump have survived and emerged victorious (so far) in a highly competitive process. Hillary's an expert at that particular process - it's her turf. Trump, an outsider, is good at competition generally and has already beaten other pros. The expectation is that Hillary may continue to be strong in the political arena, but Trump is strong across the board, bringing a competitive edge to both domestic and foreign interactions while keeping contact with the business side.
I respect your opinion, and would like to hear more of your reasoning on these points.

(1) Alpha Leadership. I do agree, being a realist, that alphas serve a purpose, and there is a role for those who lead bluntly. Perhaps an imperfect example that comes to mind would be Steve Jobs and his 'reality distortion field' which, as I understand it, consisted mainly of insistingly insanely on his way, but getting results by having others excel and finding ways to placate that may not pertain to that distortion. So a heavy hand at the till is something I can see works, and works often. When supporting this form of authority, however, I'd like to know how you feel its effects might be effectively circumscribed to avoid extremes, apart from the formal legal impediments.

(2) Competitive edge. I confess to be dumbfounded. Macroeconomics and micro are vastly different. In the former, one optimizes for the performance of all players in a system, in the latter, one optimizes for an enterprise. As for the policy of rolling back decades of nuclear anti-proliferation firewalls, and ending security alliances or bending them to serve parochial interests, I find this extremely destabilizing. In fact, I'd like to know what you feel might be the realistic conditions that lessen the chance for nuclear war today, as opposed to any time in the past since 1945, if nuclear arms become widespread among regional enemies.
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Old 25th July 2016, 12:58 AM   #70
Tony Stark
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Here's why I'll probably end up voting for Trump:

1)I agree with his view of immigration: we have to secure the border and clamp down on the people we allow to come into the country. I am not an advocate of the open borders that so many on the left seem to want.
2)I like the way he just says things the way he wants to say them; he has no political filter. I don't always agree but at least he's telling me what he really thinks and not just what I want to hear.
3)He is business-friendly and mostly aligns with my view of economics
4)He opposes the ACA and coming from the business world, might have some better ideas about running the healthcare system
5)I can't vote for Hillary and I am debating whether or not to vote for the Libertarians instead; I'm torn between wanting to support a 3rd party candidate and not wanting to "throw my vote away."
So in short, you're going to vote for a racist, fascist, conman moron who doesn't care about NATO.

To be expected.

BTW, what do you have to say about the absolute fact that your Fuhrer's tax "plan" would greatly increase the deficit/debt?

ETA: how about his upcoming fraud trial?

Last edited by Tony Stark; 25th July 2016 at 01:12 AM. Reason: IU
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Old 25th July 2016, 01:13 AM   #71
Hlafordlaes
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
... 5)I can't vote for Hillary and I am debating whether or not to vote for the Libertarians instead; I'm torn between wanting to support a 3rd party candidate and not wanting to "throw my vote away."
From overseas, might I enjoin you to consider voting Libertarian? Not that that is my choice, but as one who remembers the Cuban missile crisis as if it were yesterday, and knows that very little stands in the way of its feared outcomes even today, I would implore you to not vote for Mr. Trump. If you can find a smilie that begs on hands and knees, I'd be happy to fill a post with them.

ETA: The overseas part may have provided me with an inside look at feelings toward the US without any color in the glasses worn to do so.
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Old 25th July 2016, 02:33 AM   #72
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Did I say his daughter is hot?
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Old 25th July 2016, 02:45 AM   #73
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
So in short, you're going to vote for a racist, fascist, conman moron who doesn't care about NATO.

To be expected.

BTW, what do you have to say about the absolute fact that your Fuhrer's tax "plan" would greatly increase the deficit/debt?

ETA: how about his upcoming fraud trial?
Now now, he had some legitimate reasons, even though they are divorced from reality. People like XJX believe the free market can save the world, even though businesses are the reason for climate-change, income inequality and political corruption.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old 25th July 2016, 05:02 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
And the existing indicia aren't enough?

He's being audited isn't he? If there's something criminal he'll be charged. But even if it's just shadowy, semi-criminal stuff, it would still not amount to what's being said about Hillary trading money for influence with foreign nationals/governments. One is criminal, the other traitorous.

I don't really feel I should be burdened with defending every criticism against Trump. The OP asked about people who will be voting for the guy and I just wanted to be helpful/sociable.

It seems like almost every election I can remember we all go into this panic mode where one candidate or the other is going to totally ruin America. We get like that. We got like that with Obama. It says much more about the electorate than the candidates.
Trump hasn't yet been in a position where his actions could be deemed traitorous.

Yet.
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Old 25th July 2016, 05:04 AM   #75
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
China is not part of the TPP. Obama says that if not for it it, China will set the rules.
Well, I feel sheepish! I think it is because Australia concluded a free trade deal with China at about the same time, and we are part of the TPP as well. I confugulated them. The TPP partners you are referring to are: Australia, Canada, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, Peru, United States, Vietnam, Chile, Brunei, Singapore, and New Zealand.

Quote:
To be honest, I am very conflicted about it. I respect President Obama more than I do my own father. But on the other hand I hate Republicans and many of them are in favor. And then again, the devil himself (Donald Trump) is opposed.

****.
Forget about the parties - it's all a semi-religious ****-fight. Think about what you calculate may be the benefits and drawbacks of the initiative based on actual facts, and make your own judgement on that basis.
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Old 25th July 2016, 05:23 AM   #76
DavidJames
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Here's why I'll probably end up voting for Trump:

2)I like the way he just says things the way he wants to say them; he has no political filter. I don't always agree but at least he's telling me what he really thinks and not just what I want to hear.
How does the fact that he's been outed as the biggest liar of all the candidates fit in with this thought?
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Old 25th July 2016, 05:23 AM   #77
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I guess I'm going to have to keep bringing this up since I see discussion happening without acknowledging it: the TPP is not a simple trade deal. It's a huge package of legislative changes to be backdoored into its member countries. Here's some criticism of its intellectual property chapter, containing among other things the entire text of the failed ACTA bill, and that's just one small part.

You can support it or object to it regardless of your stance on trade protectionism, because it's so much more than that.
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Old 25th July 2016, 05:48 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
He's not a creature of a corrupt political process
No, he's just a creature of a corrupt business process. Much better.
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Old 25th July 2016, 05:50 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Just a creature of the corrupt corporate process.
Damn! I hate you. How dare you ninja me?
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Old 25th July 2016, 05:54 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No, he's just a creature of a corrupt business process. Much better.
And he's bad at it. Six business bankruptcies (three of them casinos ) and he's going to be in court in the fall as a defendant in a fraud class action lawsuit.
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