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Tags cult , double , tweaks , audio

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Old 20th August 2005, 06:39 PM   #361
rwguinn
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Quote:
Originally posted by trainman
Snip....
FORCE_REDO: To keep things as simply as you wish: I can hear differences between treated and untreated cds without knowing which is which – some of them easily and some with difficulty – in my own space and system.
Son using your gear, with treated and untreated CD's you can tell the difference. On CD's you have treated yourself? Or CD's others have treated for you?
Pu-Leeze!
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Old 20th August 2005, 07:14 PM   #362
Terry
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Re: Re: Re: HANNIBAL ANTE PORTAS

Quote:
Originally posted by ktesibios
Umm... I can't complain about doing a DBT to determine the audibility of differences in caps, but "polypropylene vs. ceramic" is a gross oversimplification.
which is what it said on the ABX page. The method is the relavant thing, not the particular result.

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Old 21st August 2005, 06:54 AM   #363
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trainman,

I have to admit I don't understand half of your last posting. However, I try to reply to the bits I do understand.

Why people are not respoding anymore? Well, let's see:
You make a claim about a paranormal ability you have. You refuse to do a test to support this claim. Everything else you talk about is either irrelevant in connection with this claim or debunked within minutes (or both). Since then, there's nothing new from you anymore, not even your announced 'grande finale'. And since this forum is something people spend their spare time with, I don't think threre's any obligation to answer to the same old over and over again.

Quote:
Isn't a whole definition enough for you Trainman to understand how you are self deceived?
I don't know. Is it?

Quote:
"Who cares about what Randi challenges?" Nobody of course!
Not? I thought you did. Why else would you start a discussion here?

Quote:
we know without scientific evidence and without having listening ourselves - but that is not paranormal
No, it's not. Nobody here claims to have paranormal abilities. Only you do. But you don't want to or aren't able to prove it.
What do you want us to do? Prove it for you? We can't. You have to come up with the next step.

Quote:
Apply for the challenge, travel abroad, pay a month's salary to humor them with a preliminary test.
If you would read what people here are trying to tell you, you would have understood by now that maybe there's no need to travel very far to do the test. These tests aren't carried out by the JREF, but by some group hopefully close to you.

Read some of the challange application discussions and you'll see how it works.

FR
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Old 22nd August 2005, 07:27 AM   #364
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Re: THE SILENCE OF THE LAMBS

Quote:
Originally posted by trainman
So, come on Trainman. Amuse them. Apply for the challenge, travel abroad, pay a month's salary to humor them with a preliminary test. You may not be so amusing like their stage magician and his articles but you have something to give, too.
I can't believe you guys are still giving trainman serious responses.

From THE VERY FIRST RESPONSE IN THIS THREAD to Trainman's OP:
Quote:
Originally posted by Psiload
Lucky for you, you needn't travel to the U.S. to be tested. I'm sure the JREF would have no problem finding a qualified representative to conduct the tests in Europe, or quite possibly on your very own home island.

Now... I'll leave you to dream up another lameass excuse.

Carry on.
Now if after 10 pages of repeating the same things to trainman over and over he STILL refuses to acknowledge simple facts, why do you think he is suddenly going to start?

Trainman, if you are wondering why the responses have gone down in number this thread, this is an excellent example as to why that might be.

There's only so many times most people are interested in saying the same thing to someone who is deliberately ignoring them.

Good luck in your forthcoming application - I believe Randi has a slot available for you shortly after hell freezes over. Unless a flock of flying pigs interfere with the preliminary test.
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Old 22nd August 2005, 09:05 AM   #365
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Re: THE SILENCE OF THE LAMBS

Quote:
Originally posted by trainman
Don't waite for an answer Trainman. JJ keeps his silence and will keep it to the end - unless he decides that the time for speaking is after your departure. Scotth has returned to his precious radar - no time for physics and Maxwell's equations, Aerich has to interpret another interview and has no time, Powa dissapeared after you proposed him to try a free tweak and as for Fowlsound, he is probably playing his oboe with his mouth shut.

But hey - Force_Redo comes with a vengeance: He has an explanation for your case; If you don't appreciate 9 pages of proposals to apply or leave the stage, he has a whole definition about self-deception from an encyclopedia! Isn't a whole definition enough for you Trainman to understand how you are self deceived?

"Who cares about what Randi challenges?" Nobody of course! We are accidentaly here. We don't know even what all that JREF stands for, we cannot remember how we were carried to that discussion. Suddenly, nothing matters - we don't even demand scientifical evidence since we know who produces something that actually does something, and who produce a fraudulent product.

Yeah; we know without scientific evidence and without having listening ourselves - but that is not paranormal, for we are sceptics, remember? And sceptics, don't have to give any explanation to anyone.

So, come on Trainman. Amuse them. Apply for the challenge, travel abroad, pay a month's salary to humor them with a preliminary test. You may not be so amusing like their stage magician and his articles but you have something to give, too.

Come on Trainman
Pay up, or shut up.
A rather strange format for a post. Is it talking to itself, Precioussssss?

Or is it a sock puppet logged in under the wrong ID?

Nevertheless, I don't care. Just thought I'd point it out.
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Old 22nd August 2005, 10:16 AM   #366
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Still no DBT. Still spraying out the lie about having to travel. Stop wasting our time, trainman. Conduct the test.

Trainman, if your next post isn't about setting up a DBT or applying for the challenge, I will interpret it as a declaration of forfeiture.
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Old 23rd August 2005, 06:27 AM   #367
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Here's a post that caught my attention.
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Old 23rd August 2005, 03:53 PM   #368
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TRAINMAN – THE FINAL PAPER

I started this thread, in order to attack a certain narrow-mindness, and an assurance that comes, not from experience but from belief. I grasped the opportunity that James Randi gave me with his provocative insults against the audiophiles that would accept the validity of certain audio tweaks, including the Golden Sound Intelligent Chip. My thread was called “Audio Tweaks and the Double Blind Test Cult” and was not supposed to defend the chip exclusively.

Every thing I have written is true, with the sole exception of my identity as “student” that accompanied my surname: I didn’t choose it (at least intentionally) and when I noticed it, I judged it was too late to change it. My sincere apologies to everyone that was tangled by that description.

My status to enter that discussion was my piano studies from the age of 5,5 till 17, as well as my occupation with audio for the last 15 years. My knowledge of electrical theory was basic – from the physics of our high schools (more advanced than the ones in America) and the ones at the technical university I had entered, without finishing it, though, since my plans changed in the process.


AUDIO TWEAKS


The audio tweaks, (products and methods for fine tuning and improving the sound of an audio system) remains a highly controversial matter. I would generally divide them into three categories

a) Tweaks that are generally accepted from the audio community – with technical and empirical back up: Such tweaks are the bi-wiring of loudspeakers (no more a tweak but a designers choice), the support of audio equipment with anti-vibration devices (sorbothan feet or cones – the latter used from mass production companies like TEAC in their ordinary products), or the mains supply filters.

b) Tweaks that their efficiency has not yet been approved scientifically but may be accepted empirically and psychologically – like the cryogenical treatment of cables, the use of super tweeters, or devices that claim to battle a supposed influence of static charges on the reading of the cd. From the latter, I will personally mention “Blacklight” – a product of “Audioprism” (the inventor of the scoffed “green pen”), that, at my system at least, only a deaf person would not discern its effect. The products of this category, may have not the approbation of science, but at least are given the right to apply for its tolerance: The cryogenic treatment of a cable for instance, may have not a scientific back up for improving the latter's technical and audio characteristics, but one can imagine that the treatment may have some kind of effect at the structure of the conductor or its dielectric. I would classify mr. Ishiwata’s tweaks in the second category.

c) Tweaks that their effect borders on paranormal or non-existent: Such are the shakti stones, the “intelligent chip”, the Bedini clarifier or the products of Peter Belt. I have to mention here that the latter, a “pioneer” in that “field”, at least admits that there is no theory that could justify the effects that his products feature, and that his virtually “insane” theoretical attempts are balanced with a policy of free trial.

The differences between the devices of the second and third category were in my eyes more psychological than real – the products of the second category seem to be waiting for their approval from science in the future as the theory that accompanies them seems more “logical”; as such, they inspire the hope that some day, the secret that evades even the understanding of their creators will be revealed. What about the first category though? Are its secrets fully revealed? Is the influence of electromagnetic waves, of ionization, or of the presence of certain materials on the human sensual perception fully covered? And, do we really know why are certain people sensitive to certain colours (positively or negatively), or why would some prefer to be surrounded by wood rather than glass?

Everyone’s answer to the questions above, delimits, (at least in his mind) and the competence of the science of today to have the final word on the matters of human perception. James Randi’s “Educational Foundation” skips over all these matters, but claims the right to stamp every product that chooses so, as a “swindle”, passing the responsibility of proving the opposite, to the creators of the product and to its users.


AUDIOPHILES


Audiophilia can be a destructive neurosis and a mania but also, a serious occupation. Audiophiles are usually peaceful and harmless people. Many of them are just loners that are lead to a one-dimensional pass-time; others are lovers of music that are just trying to increase their enjoyment having understood the interpretative limits of their system. For others, audiophilia is a journey, a constant experiment, a matter of curiosity.

I personally accepted if not justified, every objection one may had over the usefulness of this search. For any serious evaluation of the validity of its results though, I demanded the personal involvement.


SCEPTICS


A “proverb” I have heard, claimed that “for a believer a miracle is not necessary and for a sceptic, the miracles are never enough”. In our case, the sceptics (with maybe the exception of one person) denied in every possible way, to have any personal involvement in the evaluation of a “paranormal” audio tweak.

To insult someone for a claim that you could search yourself without doing so, was to my eyes an act of fear, if not a truly unethical act. The James Randi Foundation, till now proves to be sharing both: There are always people able and ready to detect every “ten dollar swindle” but not one to inform its leader for the claims of famous designers of the multinational giants.

The sceptics in the line of James Randi, know very well how to demand technical explanations and DBTs from small negligible companies that would sell their dozen dollar stuff to a few audiophiles, but they seem to kneel in front of the industrial colossus with the strong legal departments. There, the ears, eyes and mouths shut up with the same fierce that a “dog of reason” would order me to do.


DECEPTION - SELF DECEPTION – AUTOSUGGESTION


Deception and self deception is not a question that someone should bypass or appeal to, easily. Illusion is the basis of the whole science, art and industry of entertainment and its rules are well documented. For decades, a dog searching his master in the funnel of a gramophone was the badge of the record industry. Every technician in the movie industry should be able to explain how the wheels of a car that moves forward may seem to rotate backwards. Every technician in the audio industry should be able to explain how a hi-fi system creates in a lounge, sonic images of a singer that is not present.

Modern techniques in audio aim to fool the ear, to perceive that a loudspeaker is actually bigger than it is in reality, or that a system may reproduce higher harmonics that are not present in the recording.

In case of scientifically unexplained audio tweaks, the reference to self deception bears no evidence of the introduction of a documented explanation, or even an attempt to that direction. It is more or less, an easy way to finish with the evidence of others through a claim that easily fits everywhere, or a method for self-reassurance through the disparagement of the “naïve”.

The version of autosuggestion is a more polite variant of self-deception. “Trying to see if there are any differences with the use of a tweak, you listen more carefully and you may discover thus, elements that you didn’t notice before”. It is a logical scheme that could fit in the case of the experience of a more detailed sound – but not in the case of a brighter, warmer, softer, quicker, slower perception.

The blind tests are proposed as barriers to deception and autosuggestion and so, equally, their conduct should be a sane choice for the rejection of that kind of explanation.


THE DOUBLE BLIND TEST


I never underestimated the value of Double Blind Test, as some would think. I have of course declared that for me (me and only) a double blind test was not indispensable to judge the effects of a tweak like the “intelligent chip”, and that, in the context of the search of paranormal, a positive result would not prove whether there is an effect of the tweak itself or just a “paranormal” ability of the subject under test. In any case, I have admitted that, in order to persuade someone that insists on the conduct of such a test, I should play in his own field; in order to illustrate what I have written above though, I was obliged to bypass the subject and just give at times glimpses of my approach.

Although I insist that the evaluation of an audio tweak lies in the mobility of any person interested, and I am steady in that position, I wouldn’t overlook the sincere interlocutor that would state that he is not an experienced listener and he is unable to discern differences between two sonic interpretations.

Even in that case though, the conduct of a Double Blind Test would brood risks regarding its credibility – and here is the point that its defenders abandon their argumentation; for the extent of the dangers of misevaluation, where acoustic memory is included, is unknown.

An experienced wine tester may be able to tell the descent and the age of the wine he tests – but he knows that he must not in any case, drink that wine, for he could not be able to return to his previous “neutral” condition. Is it possible, and to what extent, for a listener subject to a double blind test, to return to a previous state of perception, after he would have experienced (in reality or under his own illusion) an increased audio enjoyment that a tweak would have bring?

The answer is obvious: If you don’t feel ready for that test, don’t take it, but it is your responsibility to prove your paranormal claims. “JREF is a challenge, not a contest. Take it, or leave the stage”.

As I have illustrated in my posts, the risks of taking the challenge are not in any way negligible. Tweaks (even accepted ones) that are discernable under certain conditions seem totally insignificant and with only just audible effect under others. A possible failure of the subject “in a test of paranormal claims”, could have considerable consequences in his professional life, since his mental integrity could be under dispute.

JREF’s polemics are equalized by a very tempting financial reward though. One million dollars is not something that someone would ignore anyway, and the sceptics in the forum did not loose the opportunity to add that reward to their polemics; a complete answer in my part, should not ignore it.

With an adventurer’s soul or a provocative mind and pushing aside any inhibition, I could apply for taking the challenge. Since there is no sceptic institution in Greece (with the exception of one sole person that holds a sceptic web page), I should travel abroad for the preliminary test.

Being serious about the results and, (if you wish), with an eye to the million, I should require from the testers to deposit the series of samples to a notary in order to compare them with my notes and declare officially the result of the test. Since the latter would be blind, I should carry a second person with me, to watch if the testers follow the pre-ordained series or not.

Taking into account that in my country there are not more people believing to paranormal claims than anywhere else in the so-called civilised world, I should be ready to pay for the travel and a week’s expenses abroad for two persons, as well as the notary – just for the preliminary test.

That would be still far away from the million; but would it be at least enough for my interlocutors in the JREF’s forum? Of course not. I could as well fool the Germans but what about the Big Randi? I would have to be prepared for the formal test that would be carried in the States.

For travelling to the States, it would require a visa and for the visa, I would have to pass a humiliating interview in the American Embassy, where, among others, I should answer to the question whether I am a member of any political party in Greece and which – an answer that is required the last 50 years. And in our days, a rude reply to a bureaucrat can be a very dangerous thing.

After obtaining the two visas, I should pay for two people for travelling staying and returning from the States, the notary for sure, but also for a lawyer for defending my rights (whatever that would mean) as every defendant in the Challenge does. I should expect and be able to pay the lawyer in advance, since I don’t see which lawyer would accept to be paid after my winning a million dollars in a contest of paranormal.

Being able to accept all that, I would take the Double Blind Test and my partner should be able and ready to beat a top range stage magician that I would expect to try, not just to conduct the test, but (me being the first to pass the preliminary test) defend the huge amount of One Million Dollars in every way.

I should be able and ready and willing to enter into that financial Golgotha with the sole HOPE that this One Million Dollars does exist indeed.

If I have missed something, or misinterpret something else, I hope that the kind moderator of this Forum (for whom J. Randi warns that I must “not expect him to also be deaf, dumb and blind”) will correct me accordingly, officially and validly.

As it stands though, I can only declare my readiness to assist to any serious research in the quest of the paranormal in audio tweaks and being tested at home, or in the context of some consultation and cooperation with a serious group of researchers (that would include and some kind of a financial compromise) to be lead to a travel abroad. I also allow the kind moderator to hand down my mail address, in case that such an assistance from my part would be required.

As for my friends and enemies, illuminators and obscurants, gentle and gross, malefic and well-wishing, music lovers and music haters, blacks and whites, ignorant and knowledgeable, believers and sceptics, I cannot but activate a warning I conveyed in the very first page of that thread:

“The Trainman. I don’t like him. But my papa says we have to do what the Trainman says, or else he will leave us here forever and ever”.

24/08/2005
Andreas Makrides – aka Trainman
Athens, Greece
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Old 23rd August 2005, 04:39 PM   #369
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I'll read the rest some other time, but this stood out:

Quote:
In our case, the sceptics (with maybe the exception of one person) denied in every possible way, to have any personal involvement in the evaluation of a “paranormal” audio tweak.
Liar!
We offered you a million dollars if you could conduct a proper test observed by a JREF representative.

Lost Angeles personally applied for the JREF challenge over the GSIC chip and lost.
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Old 23rd August 2005, 05:25 PM   #370
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Re: TRAINMAN – THE FINAL PAPER

Quote:
An experienced wine tester may be able to tell the descent and the age of the wine he tests – but he knows that he must not in any case, drink that wine, for he could not be able to return to his previous “neutral” condition. Is it possible, and to what extent, for a listener subject to a double blind test, to return to a previous state of perception, after he would have experienced (in reality or under his own illusion) an increased audio enjoyment that a tweak would have bring?
Audible memory doesn't matter when all you're trying to discern is if there is a difference in sound. Same for the wine taster if all you're trying to ascertain is if the wine came from the same bottle or not. And I'm pretty sure wine tasters not drinking has less to do with cleansing the palate (which is usually done with water or bread) and more to do with not getting hammered and having that affect their judgement of later wines.

Determining if a sound is better or worse with a particular device/treatment/etc.... comes after deciding if the sound has been changed at all.

Double blind removes the pyschology from the test. quick example, doctor testing a new drug. Doesn't use double-blind so he knows who has the placebo and who has the real drug.

Doctor goes to patient A, knowing patient is on placebo, gets report of no effects. Writes that down.

Doctor goes to patient B, knowing patient is on real drug, gets report of no effects. Asks "are you sure?". Patient changes answer sensing from the question that they've given the "wrong" answer.

The doctor, probably unintentionally, is changing the results. Same in an audio test. If you run a test and your prompting the testee for answers "Now doesn't that sound better?" you've invalidated the test.

Double-blind is the only effective way of insuring the test is done with out pre-concieved notions interfering. And, in audio tests, your just trying to see if there is a discernable difference so that you can reliably tell the difference between the two.

Now I'll admit their are some people with better ears than others, but that should enable them to be even better at the double-blind test since that test removes other factors than just the sound.
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Old 23rd August 2005, 05:37 PM   #371
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Re: TRAINMAN - THE FINAL PAPER

Regarding the titles and general context of Trainman's posts - am I the only one getting the whole Ted Kaczynski (aka Unabomber) Manifesto vibe? Just a thought.

NOTE: I'm in no way implying that Trainman would harm anyone. It's just the whole delusion of grandeur tone I'm getting from his posts that made the thought pop into my head.
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Old 23rd August 2005, 05:37 PM   #372
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Well said, kevin.

Additional note that should be bleedingly obvious (sorry if I'm offending any UK friends with that): Being blinded doesn't change the sound, the wine, or anything else. It just prevents you from feeding your bias. Therefore, there's no reason not to DB.

Think I noticed something how the poor, poor manufacturers would be out of business if they had to DBT all their products.

LA, if you're reading, how much did your test cost?

Just to make sure: LA tested and failed, Wellfed chickened out, as did trainman. Think I remember SBPSC... BPSCP... What's-his-name buying a chip to DBT. Anyone know which thread that was?
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Old 23rd August 2005, 05:50 PM   #373
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So, you won't take the challenge because:

1. You won't take a weekend trip to Italy, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Germany, Hungary, Netherlands, Spain, Portugal, or any of the other European countries that have sceptic organizations to take a test that will net $1 million.

2. You might need to travel to the US for the final test.

3. The protocol, whatever it will be, will be onerous and just not worth the trouble.

4. Randi will personally use his magic skills to cheat you if you win.

5. Anyway the money might not exist regardless of what the IRS or Goldman Sachs think.

What a load of RULE(8).

Same old *****, all over again...
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Old 23rd August 2005, 05:53 PM   #374
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Quote:
Originally posted by Metullus
Same old *****, all over again...
I heard that.
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Old 23rd August 2005, 05:56 PM   #375
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Quote:
Originally posted by BronzeDog
*snip*
Think I remember SBPSC... BPSCP... What's-his-name buying a chip to DBT. Anyone know which thread that was?
This thread. He will be doing the test after the 26th.

I am doing the banana test using traintroll's protocol.
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Old 23rd August 2005, 06:13 PM   #376
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Quote:
Originally posted by BronzeDog
Think I remember SBPSC... BPSCP... What's-his-name buying a chip to DBT. Anyone know which thread that was?
That's Mister BPSCG to you, BronzeDog...

Anyway, yeah, I got the chip, about two days before I went on vacation. I got back just this past weekend and intend to do the first test this coming weekend.

I plan to use a solo vocalist album, with either acoustic guitar or piano accompaniment. I want to get an album (actually two of the same album - one for GSIC treatment) that has as little control-room interference as possible - minimal added reverberation and such. I want as close to the sound of a real human voice and a real guitar or piano as possible. I'm thinking along the lines of a Gordon Lightfoot album or somesuch, but would welcome suggestions.

Once I start getting results - remember, I said I was going to try this on as many people as I could - I'll start a new thread, posting the results.
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Old 23rd August 2005, 06:53 PM   #377
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Quote:
Originally posted by BPSCG
That's Mister BPSCG to you, BronzeDog...

Anyway, yeah, I got the chip, about two days before I went on vacation. I got back just this past weekend and intend to do the first test this coming weekend.

I plan to use a solo vocalist album, with either acoustic guitar or piano accompaniment. I want to get an album (actually two of the same album - one for GSIC treatment) that has as little control-room interference as possible - minimal added reverberation and such. I want as close to the sound of a real human voice and a real guitar or piano as possible. I'm thinking along the lines of a Gordon Lightfoot album or somesuch, but would welcome suggestions.

Once I start getting results - remember, I said I was going to try this on as many people as I could - I'll start a new thread, posting the results.
Okay. Got that. Mister BPMSG. (Okay, I kid, BPSCG. Need to come up with some mnemonic device.)

Out of curiousity, about how much money do you think it's going to cost you overall to perform this test?
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Old 23rd August 2005, 07:06 PM   #378
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Not that anybody cares, but I will be using Weird Al's "Dare to be Stupid" CD.
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Old 23rd August 2005, 07:24 PM   #379
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Quote:
Originally posted by BPSCG
That's Mister BPSCG to you, BronzeDog...

Anyway, yeah, I got the chip, about two days before I went on vacation. I got back just this past weekend and intend to do the first test this coming weekend.

I plan to use a solo vocalist album, with either acoustic guitar or piano accompaniment. I want to get an album (actually two of the same album - one for GSIC treatment) that has as little control-room interference as possible - minimal added reverberation and such. I want as close to the sound of a real human voice and a real guitar or piano as possible. I'm thinking along the lines of a Gordon Lightfoot album or somesuch, but would welcome suggestions.

Once I start getting results - remember, I said I was going to try this on as many people as I could - I'll start a new thread, posting the results.
I recomend Disk 4 of the boxed set..--but 2 of them would be expensive...
The Sundown album has a good mix. If the GSIC can improve "The Watchman's Gone", I'll buy one! That's about as close to perfect as it gets already.
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Old 23rd August 2005, 07:37 PM   #380
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Re: TRAINMAN – THE FINAL PAPER

Quote:
Originally posted by trainman
Is it possible, and to what extent, for a listener subject to a double blind test, to return to a previous state of perception, after he would have experienced (in reality or under his own illusion) an increased audio enjoyment that a tweak would have bring?
I'm not sure I understand you here. Are you saying that maybe someone shouldn't do a blind test on a tweak they like, because if it fails the test, that will lessen their future enjoyment of it?

That's a good point, I'll agree, sort of like asking whether a doctor should prescribe a placebo if he thinks it will calm the patient. No easy answer to that, I guess.

But then you're basically admitting that the tweak doesn't really improve the sound; it just makes people think that it improves the sound. Which is what everyone here has been saying all along.
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Old 24th August 2005, 08:03 AM   #381
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Quote:
Originally posted by BronzeDog
Okay. Got that. Mister BPMSG. (Okay, I kid, BPSCG. Need to come up with some mnemonic device.)
Howabout Battersea Power Station Community Group (not that it has anything to do with my username, but google Battersea Power Station for some interesting photos...)
Quote:
Out of curiousity, about how much money do you think it's going to cost you overall to perform this test?
Well, it was about $17.00 for the GSIC (including shipping and tax), and what, ten or fifteen bucks per CD? Under fifty bucks total. I suppose you could add in cost of electrcity each time I do the test, cost of entertaining my guests, cost of wear on the living room sofa they'll sit on and the carpet they'll walk across, extra cost of air conditioning to cool house from rise in temperature caused by guest (in summer) or extra heating cost (in winter), depreciation of my CD player, waste of my precious lifetime minutes trying to demonstrate an effect which I am almost certain does not exist...

I figure about a million bucks. So this thing better work.
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Old 24th August 2005, 08:08 AM   #382
BPSCG
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Quote:
Originally posted by Metullus
Not that anybody cares, but I will be using Weird Al's "Dare to be Stupid" CD.
Yeah, but what kind of bananas will you be using? You know that most bananas come from outside the US, and are therefore picked green. Do you want to run the risk of giving your CDs a raw, undeveloped sound?

And you need to be careful about using a banana that's past its peak, lest you run the risk of imparting a mushy, turgid sound to your CDs.
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Old 25th August 2005, 02:26 AM   #383
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Re: TRAINMAN – THE FINAL PAPER

Quote:
Originally posted by trainman
*sniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip* I cannot but activate a warning I conveyed in the very first page of that thread:

“The Trainman. I don’t like him. But my papa says we have to do what the Trainman says, or else he will leave us here forever and ever”.

24/08/2005
Andreas Makrides – aka Trainman
Athens, Greece
Good! Thank you. Then I won't waste time adressing any of the nonsense statements in your long rant.

Hans
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