The south, evangelicals and the Civil War

pgwenthold

Penultimate Amazing
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Since when, would you expect evangelicals anywhere, to think the south losing the war was a good thing?

Irony is that much of the Abolitionists leaders had religious views that would be considered "evangelistic" nowdays.....

IMHO the article paints with far too broad a brush.The evangelical movement is a lot more diverse then the writer of that article indicates.
Of course, although I am a total skeptic on religion, I don't share the hatred and loathing for it that is common on this site.
 
Irony is that much of the Abolitionists leaders had religious views that would be considered "evangelistic" nowdays.....

IMHO the article paints with far too broad a brush.The evangelical movement is a lot more diverse then the writer of that article indicates.
Of course, although I am a total skeptic on religion, I don't share the hatred and loathing for it that is common on this site.

A surprising number of people don't remember that Martin Luther King was a Baptist minister, or that the civil rights movement was largely fueled by religious sentiments.
 
A surprising number of people don't remember that Martin Luther King was a Baptist minister, or that the civil rights movement was largely fueled by religious sentiments.
When it comes to that, few would remember that the first declaration of a secular government was when Roger Williams, the Baptist, was thrown out of sectarian Massachusetts, and founded Rhode Island, and unlike many who fled persecution only to establish new persecutions, he put religious tolerance at the top of his agenda.
 
Since when, would you expect evangelicals anywhere, to think the south losing the war was a good thing?

I would expect that nearly 100% of northern Evangelical abolitionists think it was a good thing. I would expect the followers of the Evangelical Rev. MLK Jr. wherever they live would think the confederacy loosing was a good thing.
 
I just read something that made my skin crawl here

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2017/03/evangelicalism-returns-white-supremacist-roots

"Thirty-eight percent of evangelicals [in South Carolina] told pollsters that they wished the South had won the Civil War "

That's twice as much as non-evangelicals, but even there, think about it: 20% of those in South Carolina wish the south would have won the Civil War.

friggin traders.

And 80% wish the other way.
 
A surprising number of people don't remember that Martin Luther King was a Baptist minister, or that the civil rights movement was largely fueled by religious sentiments.

So was the anti-civil rights movement. As well, King was a Baptist minister unlike almost all other Baptist ministers of his time. His message was entirely different from theirs. He also embraced atheists and communists, having many in his inner circle. His only white adviser all those years, Stanley Levison, devote atheist.
 
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So was the anti-civil rights movement. As well, King was a Baptist minister unlike almost all other Baptist ministers of his time. His message was entirely different from theirs. He also embraced atheists and communists, having many in his inner circle. His only white adviser all those years, Stanley Levison, devote atheist.

Another advisor/mentor/organizer, Bayard Rustin, was gay - and not at all discrete about it, either.

(although, note the lack of women in this circle of leadership.)
 
One only becomes an evangelical in this day and age because they are mindless and hate filled. So of course they would sympathize with the Confederacy.
 
One only becomes an evangelical in this day and age because they are mindless and hate filled. So of course they would sympathize with the Confederacy.

Does "mindless and hate filled" mean ignorant of how other people think, and prone to saying nasty things about them? Are you familiar with a popular passage from the Bible refererencing ophthalmological diagnoses involving wood products?
 
Irony is that much of the Abolitionists leaders had religious views that would be considered "evangelistic" nowdays.....

IMHO the article paints with far too broad a brush.The evangelical movement is a lot more diverse then the writer of that article indicates.
Of course, although I am a total skeptic on religion, I don't share the hatred and loathing for it that is common on this site.

It is in large part because they have solidly cemented the identity of christian with conservative. And I don't think anyone would ever consider the quakers as evangelical.
 
I would expect that nearly 100% of northern Evangelical abolitionists think it was a good thing. I would expect the followers of the Evangelical Rev. MLK Jr. wherever they live would think the confederacy loosing was a good thing.

Are you changing definitions now so that all christians are evangelical?
 
I bet the vast majority of those who wish the South won voted for Trump too.

The vast majority of those who DON'T wish the South won voted for Trump, too.

More than 80% of evangelicals voted for Trump, irrespective of their position on the Civil War.
 
The vast majority of those who DON'T wish the South won voted for Trump, too.

More than 80% of evangelicals voted for Trump, irrespective of their position on the Civil War.
Er, bad wording? Perhaps you meant that the vast majority of those who voted for Trump don't wish the south had won? Because the people who actually voted for Trump are a minority of voters.
 
Does "mindless and hate filled" mean ignorant of how other people think, and prone to saying nasty things about them? Are you familiar with a popular passage from the Bible refererencing ophthalmological diagnoses involving wood products?

He can't read it, he has something in his eye.
 
Does "mindless and hate filled" mean ignorant of how other people think, and prone to saying nasty things about them? Are you familiar with a popular passage from the Bible refererencing ophthalmological diagnoses involving wood products?


As someone who grew up in the American Evangelical Christian community, I'd say that "mindless" certainly qualifies for the vast majority, and "hate-filled" is not an unfair description of a very large percentage. While they may not be as openly racist in some areas as in others; hatred of "queers", "liberals", atheists, and similar groups is very much thriving.

According to multiple polls, white Evangelical voted in record numbers in the 2016 presidential election, and overwhelmingly (over 80%) voted for Trump.

Black Evangelicals tend to vote more to the left than white Evangelicals, and were a large part of Clinton's base in the last election; but like their white counterparts, overwhelmingly oppose LGBT rights, abortion, and drug legalization/decriminalization. A very large number of them also support restricting immigration and refugee programs.

Non-Evangelical mainstream denominations such as the Baptists, Methodists, or Episcopalians are much more likely to lean in more socially-liberal directions. The Evangelical community is very much aligned with, and to a great extent drives, the far-right of American politics.
 
Are you changing definitions now so that all christians are evangelical?


Apparently, since the modern, fundamentalist form of the Evangelical movement didn't really come into being until 1910; and did not really become a significant religious presence until post-WWII, and a major socio-political force until the birth of the Charismatic movement in the 1960s.

The backbone of the fundamentalist Evangelical movement, the Assemblies of God denomination, was founded in 1914, as part of the burgeoning Pentecostal movement. The general Pentecostal super-denomination itself is profoundly socially conservative, and increasingly far-right leaning.
 
Can someone explain to me what we mean by "evangelical Christian" that distinguishes them from regular Christians?


"Evangelicalism" is a wide umbrella that has seen its meaning change over the years. Originally, it simply referred to a particular branch of actively-proselytizing and revivalist Christianity.

That changed in the early-20th century with the rise of fundamentalism and the Pentecostal movement, which were in large part complementary, and which eventually merged; resulting in what those outside the US commonly refer to as Conservative Evangelicalism. The most significant example of this branch of the religion is the Assemblies of God church founded in 1914.

The politics of the member churches at the time tended to vary, but overall tended to reject the liberal "social-gospel" of the more mainstream denominations, and espouse a conservative political platform. With the birth of the Charismatic movement, it became firmly and inextricably linked with far-right conservative politics.

The basic tenets of American Evangelicalism are those of Fundamentalism. In a nutshell, these are Biblical literalism and inerrancy, conservatism, Dispensationalism, millenialism, and opposition to what it sees as attacks on Christianity in the sciences and social programs (it is profoundly anti-evolution and anti-abortion, as well as anti-LGBT rights; although some Evangelical branches reject the association with fundamentalism due to its profoundly anti-intellectual stands, they still agree with the majority of its tenets).

In recent decades, this has merged with the "Word of Faith" aka "Prosperity Gospel"; resulting in even further association with far-right conservatism; and emphasis on material wealth and prosperity as an indicator of piety and favor from G-D. This last quality is a very large part of why the Evangelical movement is so smitten with Trump. He is able to claim to be Christian (he's not, he's actually a disciple of Norman Vincent Peale), and hold up his wealth as an indicator of his faith has resonated with those who hold this theological worldview.
 
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The basic tenets of American Evangelicalism are those of Fundamentalism. In a nutshell, these are Biblical literalism and inerrancy, conservatism, Dispensationalism, millenialism, and opposition to what it sees as attacks on Christianity in the sciences and social programs (it is profoundly anti-evolution and anti-abortion, as well as anti-LGBT rights; although some Evangelical branches reject the association with fundamentalism due to its profoundly anti-intellectual stands, they still agree with the majority of its tenets).

I'm almost afraid to ask how many of them there are in the US.
 
The basic tenets of American Evangelicalism are those of Fundamentalism. In a nutshell, these are Biblical literalism and inerrancy, conservatism, Dispensationalism, millenialism, and opposition to what it sees as attacks on Christianity in the sciences and social programs (it is profoundly anti-evolution and anti-abortion, as well as anti-LGBT rights; although some Evangelical branches reject the association with fundamentalism due to its profoundly anti-intellectual stands, they still agree with the majority of its tenets).

Curiously, "evangelical" is a label we seem to apply exclusively to Protestant Christians. But, there are plenty of Catholics wordwide that share those same beliefs.
 
It seems many here have very little understanding of the history or variety of sects that compose evangelical Christianity. The Wikipedia article is pretty good, you could start learning there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

A few quotes from the article:
Its origins are usually traced back to English Methodism, the Moravian Church (in particular theology of its bishop Nicolaus Zinzendorf and his community at Herrnhut), and German Lutheran Pietism. While all these phenomena contributed greatly, John Wesley and other early Methodists were at the root of sparking this new movement during the First Great Awakening. Today, Evangelicals are found across many Protestant branches, as well as in various denominations not subsumed to a specific branch. Among leaders and major figures of the Evangelical Protestant movement were John Wesley, George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, Billy Graham, Harold John Ockenga, John Stott and Martyn Lloyd-Jones. The movement gained great momentum during the 18th and 19th centuries with the Great Awakenings in the United Kingdom and North America.

As a trans-denominational movement, Evangelicalism occurs in nearly every Protestant denomination and tradition. The Reformed, Baptist, Wesleyan, Pentecostal, Churches of Christ, Plymouth Brethren, charismatic Protestant, and nondenominational Protestant traditions have all had strong influence within modern Evangelicalism. Evangelicals are also represented within the Anabaptist, Anglican and Lutheran traditions
 
Does "mindless and hate filled" mean ignorant of how other people think, and prone to saying nasty things about them? Are you familiar with a popular passage from the Bible refererencing ophthalmological diagnoses involving wood products?

One has to try pretty hard to not know what evangelicals think. They tell others all the time what they think. They aren't shy about it. Hell Right Wing Watch is a great archive of their musings.
 
I'm almost afraid to ask how many of them there are in the US.


Unfortunately, millions.

Curiously, "evangelical" is a label we seem to apply exclusively to Protestant Christians. But, there are plenty of Catholics wordwide that share those same beliefs.


There are a lot of different flavours of Evangelical, with greater or fewer similarities between them. Protestant and Catholic evangelicals, however, are definitely not part of the same branch, and do not get along particularly well. The Protestant branches tend to be very critical of the Catholics, to the point of calling them outright heretical in some cases. There's a great deal more animosity on the Protestant side than on the Catholic side from what I've seen.

When discussing the Evangelical church in the contemporary USA, however, you're generally discussing the Pentecostal-Charismatic-Prosperity Evangelical churches like the AoGs and the non-denominational mega-churches. Especially when you're discussing them in a political context.
 
The vast majority of those who DON'T wish the South won voted for Trump, too.

More than 80% of evangelicals voted for Trump, irrespective of their position on the Civil War.

Er, bad wording? Perhaps you meant that the vast majority of those who voted for Trump don't wish the south had won? Because the people who actually voted for Trump are a minority of voters.

I believe he meant the vast majority OF EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS who don't wish the South had won voted for Trump too. That would be correct.
 
It seems many here have very little understanding of the history or variety of sects that compose evangelical Christianity. The Wikipedia article is pretty good, you could start learning there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

A few quotes from the article:


The older historical Evangelical movements bear little relation to the modern Evangelical churches in the US. That particular branch of the movement did not start until the 20th century.
 
Does "mindless and hate filled" mean ignorant of how other people think, and prone to saying nasty things about them? Are you familiar with a popular passage from the Bible refererencing ophthalmological diagnoses involving wood products?

I may drop a log later today - but not in my own eye!!!!!
 
Can someone explain to me what we mean by "evangelical Christian" that distinguishes them from regular Christians?

Regular xtians go to church from time to time, give fundage from time to time, go to special services occasionally if it does not interfere with their real activities and may or may not mention church to their friends outside of it. Their kids may participate in some youth activities, but it is not required.

Evangelicals let everybody know they love Jesus and push everybody else to, make their kids go to church, VBS, Sunday School, etc., control their kid's friends - limiting them to the in-crowd at church, not where it really matters.
Outside of church, they push to control the things they do not like by making it difficult or criminal to engage in/enjoy (etc.) the things they think are naughty or bad. I am fine with regular xtians, dislike/hate fundies/evangelicals because they want to control others.
 
One has to try pretty hard to not know what evangelicals think. They tell others all the time what they think. They aren't shy about it. Hell Right Wing Watch is a great archive of their musings.

And no doubt they read your vitriolic ravings and conclude you speak for all your kind, too.
 

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