Merged All things Trump + Russia

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... It's as I keep saying, the problem with the election was not Trump, but the people that supported him. ....
That is yet to be seen.

From my POV, the constant dripping is really starting to fill that bucket. How many connections does there need to be in the Trump inner circle before the pattern suggests he had to have been involved?

For Trump not to be involved, the numbers add up to quite the coincidence.

About the only scenario not finding Trump involved is if due to Trump's financial ties to Russia, be it borrowing from Russian banks or making a profit selling Trump Tower space to Russian Oligarchs or both, those connections led to Trump knowing lots of other people involved in the Russian cash cow. In such a case, Trump appointing a preponderance of Russian connections could be coincidence.

But then you have to explain why Trump kept all these folks on as one by one they began looking compromised. And that's not to mention the lies told protecting these guys.

Looks like Ivanka and the Kushners had the China financial connections.
 
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No, that HAS been seen. As in, he was elected. That was and continues to be a serious failing of the American electorate.

The only thing left to be seen is whether they can actually shape up.

Right, so why did Trump just fire Comey who was investigating Trump?
 
More information in a notably skewed fashion,

This makes no sense. It's like saying the Billy Bush tape shouldn't have been released because it gave the public more information "in a notably skewed fashion". It gave us information about Trump, but not Clinton. Skewed!

If a group focuses on releasing the stories of the people who die each year of vaccine-related causes to try to convince people not to get vaccinations, should we simply be happy at the added information that they put out there, especially after disease outbreaks start getting nasty and deadly?

There's nothing wrong with the information being out there. People dying from vaccine-related complications should not be hidden, if it's happening. But it should be considered with the overall risks of vaccination versus the risks of not getting vaccinated in mind, in addition to the potential effects on others of not getting vaccinated. If the group is implying that it's better to not get vaccinated, then they are likely framing the information dishonestly and that is a bad thing. But the information being out there isn't bad.

While "act of war" likely is overblown, outrage is natural, regardless of how routine it may be.

I'm not sure how saying it's natural adds anything to the conversation. It's natural for a lot of people to be outraged over something much of the media and Democratic Party keep saying is outrageous, sure.

When a guy who distributes the incoming mail to the people who will deal with it is being effectively treated on par with a CEO when it comes to responsibility for the decisions of the leaders of the company, arguments like this rather lose any meaningfulness.

What...? CEOs are not elected by employees. We, as citizens, should be concerned with the actions of our government, because we are responsible for electing officials, and because we're capable of attempting to affect change through activism, pressuring our representatives and so on. Much harder to do this in Russia if one is a US citizen, living in the US. I never said anything about equal responsibility across the board.

Of course it's our responsibility to care what the CIA does, but when you're relying on a link that honestly only leads to each of us bearing a negligible amount of the responsibility, through a convoluted path that effectively removes our influence at multiple parts from the process, your stated reasoning for why we should care fails, badly.

You tell me why we should care then.

We could agree to do such, but to what end? To let you try to protect the notably flawed reasoning that you're trying to employ?

That's a notably impressive rhetorical device you've got there.
 
This makes no sense. It's like saying the Billy Bush tape shouldn't have been released because it gave the public more information "in a notably skewed fashion". It gave us information about Trump, but not Clinton. Skewed!

Perhaps it makes no sense when one ignores the rest of the picture, sure. That requires ignoring the rest of the picture, though.

There's nothing wrong with the information being out there. People dying from vaccine-related complications should not be hidden, if it's happening.

It certainly does happen and it certainly shouldn't be hidden (and isn't, at last check). Vaccines are not even remotely 100% safe, after all. What using them actually does, though, is dramatically decrease the odds of dying and various other potential horrors overall.

But it should be considered with the overall risks of vaccination versus the risks of not getting vaccinated in mind, in addition to the potential effects on others of not getting vaccinated. If the group is implying that it's better to not get vaccinated, then they are likely framing the information dishonestly and that is a bad thing. But the information being out there isn't bad.

And that rather gets to one of the cruxes of that particular issue. Few here have actually argued that the information being out there in the first place is actually a bad thing. I certainly didn't. When it's obtained using illegal means and is being used as a weapon to try to manipulate people to act in ways that have nothing to do with the people's benefit, though, it's entirely reasonable to be outraged at those parts of what's going on, for a number of reasons. Furthermore, it's entirely reasonable that people be more concerned about what others are trying to do to them than what others are trying to do to others who they aren't even likely to ever have contact with, which means that your claim which is directly contrary to that is rather unreasonable.

I'm not sure how saying it's natural adds anything to the conversation. It's natural for a lot of people to be outraged over something much of the media and Democratic Party keep saying is outrageous, sure.

That, unsurprisingly, has little to do with the actual reasons for outrage and so quite earns a :rolleyes:.

What...? CEOs are not elected by employees.

Nor is most of the federal government, yet you were pointedly saying that being part of the federal government, or even having any influence on it in any way, no matter how negligible, makes it a person's responsibility, in an attempted counter to me pointing out that those who actually make the decisions and carry them out are those who bear the responsibility.

We, as citizens, should be concerned with the actions of our government,

Yes, we certainly should.

because we are responsible for electing officials, and because we're capable of attempting to affect change through activism, pressuring our representatives and so on.

That's but one of many aspects of why. A minor one, really, given that the ability to have some tiny influence on who is going to be doing a particular job from a very, very limited selection of people who one doesn't know personally leaves plenty of leeway when it comes to invoking a sense of responsibility for the actions of the person elected. It's also one that's much, much better applied to whether we should be paying attention to what our elected officials are doing in the first place, contrary to how you've been trying to apply it. You've been trying to apply it to whether it's reasonable to be outraged at various things, though, while ignoring that outrage is inherently emotional and thus have been trying to argue that people should get *more* emotional about wrongs done to perfect strangers who they frequently would quite dislike anyways than they should get about wrongs done to their own selves and the people that they actually know and care about. It really doesn't take a genius to figure out why that argument's doomed from the start.

I never said anything about equal responsibility across the board.

When you chose to counter
If they were actually part of the decisions and implementation, perhaps. The vast majority of the federal government is not, though.
with
They are part of the institution that does it (as are we as voters, in a sense).

There's just not really any other way to reasonably take what you actually said. Even if we were generous and went with assuming that you actually meant a somewhat unequal responsibility, your argument still fails basic scrutiny for much the same reason. You're trying to spread responsibility around on the basis of working under the same very, very broad banner, not based on whether they even could have meaningfully affected anything about a decision in any way, let alone whether they even could have known about it to even try to take action regarding it. You are, of course, welcome to add to what you said to seek to clarify the intended meaning, should what you said not have accurately conveyed your meaning, but I have no intention of trying to make up positions for you that aren't directly a consequence of the words that you've chosen to try to convey such.


You tell me why we should care then.

There are many reasons, most of which boil down to the category of "because the decisions that they make affect us and those we care about."


That's a notably impressive rhetorical device you've got there.

Which I only used because it appeared to be completely accurate.
 
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I don't think we have any room to call Russia evil over this. We've not only interfered, we've gotten involved in deposing elected leaders, installed dictators, deposed dictators and there are many egregious examples. These often amounted to supporting the corporatocracy which were using the nations' natural resources.
So we should not be so outraged.

Rather we should expect it and take measures against it. That includes getting to the bottom of this thing with Trump and Russia.

For which the US has been rightfully attacked by the same people who now handwave similar actions from Putin and his Kremlin.
 
For which the US has been rightfully attacked by the same people who now handwave similar actions from Putin and his Kremlin.

One of these things is not like the other.

I make no moral judgement against Russia over the empirical effort to influence our election.

I do make a case that morality is not the issue, preventing Russia or any other country influencing our elections is a top priority. Stopping cybercrime is of interest to us all. I don't approve of the US deposing any elected leader of any country.
 
And now:

Trump Preparing Certified Letter Attesting to No Russia Ties

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-09/trump-preparing-certified-letter-attesting-to-no-russia-ties

Washington (AP) -- The White House says President Donald Trump is sending a certified letter to Sen. Lindsey Graham attesting that the president has no connections to Russia.
Graham told CNN on Tuesday he wants to explore possible ties between Trump's businesses and Russia. The South Carolina Republican chairs a Senate Judiciary subcommittee that is investigating Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election.
White House spokesman Sean Spicer says Trump has asked a Washington law firm to send a certified letter to Graham stating that he has no connections to Russia.
Spicer says Trump has no business in Russia or ties to the country. He says based on that Graham's inquiry "should be a really easy look."
U.S. intelligence agencies have concluded that Russia interfered in the election in attempt to help Trump.
 
This makes no sense. It's like saying the Billy Bush tape shouldn't have been released because it gave the public more information "in a notably skewed fashion". It gave us information about Trump, but not Clinton. Skewed!

Was the Billy Bush tape selectively edited when released? Then it did not give the public information in a notably skewed fashion.
 
Normally i would like the idea of the certified letter, ie 'here's something we can really hold him to', but it's extremely difficult to expect anything other than handwaving when it's inevitably pointed out that at least one of his certified assertions are factually incorrect.
 
Here is an informative short read for people who don't understand why the attribution claims by CrowdStrike and other paid actors are so unconvincing - and even transparent as disinformation - for those who have a good understanding of the matter.
 
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Here is an informative short read for people who don't understand why the attribution claims by CrowdStrike and other paid actors are so unconvincing - and even transparent as disinformation - for those who have a good understanding of the matter.
A cyber security expert says it's possible a Russian fingerprint could have been faked.

I think that makes it a good thing we have so many other indicators that point to Russia, including paid Russian trolls, and Russian propaganda sites that back it up, eh?

On a completely unrelated side note, have you noticed how communist countries and former communist nations lag really far behind western nations in terms of women's rights, minority rights, gay rights and so on? It's almost enough to make one think that communism isn't the way to go if you value social justice. Do you agree?

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Normally i would like the idea of the certified letter, ie 'here's something we can really hold him to', but it's extremely difficult to expect anything other than handwaving when it's inevitably pointed out that at least one of his certified assertions are factually incorrect.
Another squeaky toy for us, though, and you can never have too many squeaky toys.
 
Well if he sends a certified letter, that should put an end to it, right? :oldroll:


Who could possibly doubt the veracity of a certified letter?

Especially one from Trump.

Maybe I'm confused. I don't understand what a letter being certified has to do with the truth of its contents.

Does it actually provide anything aside from an acknowledgement that it was received by the intended party?
 
communist countries and former communist nations lag really far behind western nations in terms of women's rights, minority rights, gay rights and so on? It's almost enough to make one think that communism isn't the way to go if you value social justice. Do you agree?
Off topic, but no.

You have it backwards - Communism didn't create the inequalities you speak of - it was a response to them. To be fair you should compare countries that took up Communism to those in similar circumstances that didn't, for example Iran and Saudi Arabia. Then you will see that the real causes are religious and cultural, and have nothing to do with Communism.

There is even a major political party in the US which wants to strip women, minorities, gays etc. of their rights - and it's not the Communist Party!
 
False equivalence is false. Endorsing a candidate is nothing like using your clandestine agencies to hack servers or paying a troll army to influence opinion through comments.

Nice try, though.
Plus of course Obama is a private citizen who does not in any way represent the USA administration.
 
Off topic, but no.

You have it backwards - Communism didn't create the inequalities you speak of - it was a response to them.

In what way? I can't think of any countries that turned to communism as a response to inequalities among LGBT people, women or minorities. Nor can I think of examples where communism was instrumental in improving circumstances for these peoples. Can you?


To be fair you should compare countries that took up Communism to those in similar circumstances that didn't, for example Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Are you comparing Saudi Arabia and Iran to each other? Or are you comparing them to communist nations?

Then you will see that the real causes are religious and cultural, and have nothing to do with Communism.

I don't think communism causes sexism, racism, and homophobia. I'm proposing that empirical evidence suggests it doesn't improve these inequalities either.

There is even a major political party in the US which wants to strip women, minorities, gays etc. of their rights - and it's not the Communist Party!

I'm not claiming the United States is perfect, but is it possible to discuss this without the knee-jerk tu quoques?

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In what way? I can't think of any countries that turned to communism as a response to inequalities among LGBT people, women or minorities. Nor can I think of examples where communism was instrumental in improving circumstances for these peoples. Can you?

I don't think that was the claim. In Russia, for instance, it was a response to the inequality between the aristocrats and the people. And that it didn't improve the situation doesn't mean it wasn't a response to it.
 
The White House barred US media from yesterday's meeting between President Trump, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, and Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak. A Russian state media photographer was allowed to take pictures, however, and the Russian Foreign Ministry posted some on Twitter.

A White House official is unhappy.

"They tricked us," an angry White House official said.

"That's the problem with the Russians -- they lie," the official added.


Sad!
 
The White House barred US media from yesterday's meeting between President Trump, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, and Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak. A Russian state media photographer was allowed to take pictures, however, and the Russian Foreign Ministry posted some on Twitter.

A White House official is unhappy.




Sad!

What is this world coming to when you can't trust a foreign government to help deliver your message?
 
Lavrov and Kislyak get the red carpet treatment after Putin let Tillerson wait for hours before receiving him.
It's clear who is the junior partner in the US-Russia relationship.
 
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