Destroyed Atlantis = Menorah

King of the Americas said:
No.

I am saying the bible doesn't say anything about the piece. No mention of what it represents, or where it came from.

I presented the biblical evidence as proof that the symbol was adopted, nothing more.
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Knee-jerk posting, I see. I was addressing Vixen's post through Hokulele, not yours. Take the time to read, next time.
 
Porpoise of Life said:
The dating isn't given.
The location is not in an island in the Atlantic, and is a couple thousand miles from Israel. So no connection to either Atlantis or the Jews.
And the fact that the menorah did not exist before the Jews did in no way suggests that they modeled their candlestick after a rock in Spain.
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Cameron's film goes over how they dated these events.

The true location is beneath the waves, check out google earth, you can see them.

In fact Jewish history says, "go build this thing out of gold, after a pattern in that mount."...providing no rhyme or reason as to why... <----God talking
 
King of the Americas said:
Cameron's film goes over how they dated these events.

The true location is beneath the waves, check out google earth, you can see them.

In fact Jewish history says, "go build this thing out of gold, after a pattern in that mount."...providing no rhyme or reason as to why... <----God talking
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... and of course, god being omnipotent, knew of Atlantis and, thinking half of it would make a great candle holder, told the Israelites to use it so.

Checkmate Skeptics!
 
The Greater Fool said:
... and of course, god being omnipotent, knew of Atlantis and, thinking half of it would make a great candle holder, told the Israelites to use it so.

Checkmate Skeptics!
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Objection- Speculation

We have no idea why the biblical authority directed the Jews to do as he did.

Which is my point, there was no reason given. Only the symbol was adopted.
 
xjx388 said:
He says before posting

Which sounds like pure speculation to me...
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Ahhh, did you read the passage I posted?

Exodus simply says that God said to build the menorah in a shape after a "pattern" on the mount.

There is no explanation or previous history provided.

That's not speculation of any type.
 
King of the Americas said:
Objection- Speculation

We have no idea why the biblical authority directed the Jews to do as he did.

Which is my point, there was no reason given. Only the symbol was adopted.
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Of course we know. It was an exercise in recreating the original Tabernacle of Moses, with the specifications for the Ark and the altar, etc., etc. The Menorah is specifically a lampstand to go with it.

Sometimes it's Occam's Razor.
 
Vixen said:
Of course we know. It was an exercise in recreating the original Tabernacle of Moses, with the specifications for the Ark and the altar, etc., etc. The Menorah is specifically a lampstand to go with it.

Sometimes it's Occam's Razor.
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One, that's still not provenance. WHY a 'lamp' with 7 flames? Where did the "pattern" come from?

The biblical origins are silent hereon.
 
King of the Americas said:
One, that's still not provenance. WHY a 'lamp' with 7 flames? Where did the "pattern" come from?

The biblical origins are silent hereon.
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And so unto you I say "Go forth and fill thy gap with any old tosh, for thou art in search of an argument, not an answer".

But hey, I'm here for the lulz, so continue with the parody.

(and for the record, completed Law, Distinction average, thank you very much)
 
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King of the Americas said:
Ahhh, did you read the passage I posted?

Exodus simply says that God said to build the menorah in a shape after a "pattern" on the mount.

There is no explanation or previous history provided.

That's not speculation of any type.
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King of the Americas said:
One, that's still not provenance. WHY a 'lamp' with 7 flames? Where did the "pattern" come from?

The biblical origins are silent hereon.
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And yet you claim it came from Atlantis.
Did I miss the part where you provided historical evidence for this claim, because I'd hate to think you would break your own rules and resort to mere speculation.
BTW, does the Bible even mention Atlantis? It puzzles me that you would be using a source that (AFAIK) makes no mention of the civilisation you claim existed, as partial evidence that it did indeed exist.
To reiterate a question you have yet to answer: are there any historical sources other than Plato, that make mention of Atlantis? The Egyptians, Phoenicians, Chinese, Babylonians, the Indus River civilisations, the Celts? Anyone?
 
Cosmic Yak said:
Did I miss the part where you provided historical evidence for this claim, because I'd hate to think you would break your own rules and resort to mere speculation.
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Oh, Plato said it, so it's historical because Plato was a teacher and look at these concentric circles! No one else does them, so it must be Atlantis!
 
I don't have access to picture editing software right now, but if you put a stylized map of Atlantis next to the Spanish carving, and next to a menorah, it is quite clear that the only similarity between them is the use of more or less concentric curved lines.
Concentric curved lines and circles pop up all over the world, and throughout the ages.

And despite OP's claims, there is nothing about the location or dating of the carving that suggests a connection to the Jews, much less that they adopted and changed this symbol.
All connections to Atlantis are purely speculative because a: the Atlantis from Plato's dialogues could not have existed and b: a different Atlantis-like submerged city that was advanced for its time has never been found. (well, Mycenean and Minoan ruins have been found, but they appeared elsewhere in Greek sources, so they are not Atlantis)

OP has got nothing.
 
King of the Americas said:
You want me to provide negative evidence?

Tricky endeavor.
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You provided negative evidence that JK Rowling has never said her work was anything but fiction. How did you know that?

Why can't you provide similar negative evidence that Plato never said his work wasn't historical?

All you've got so far is some feature of an allegorical city being described as concentric circles, and a huge unevidenced leap to assuming that a carved pattern of concentric semicircles might represent half of that city. Except the top half is missing, which seems to me a stupid and unlikely symbol for a lost city which allegedly sank beneath the waves. And then you've got another huge leap from saying this semicircles thing at one end of the Mediterranean kinda looks a bit like a menorah from entirely the opposite end, to assuming it is really is the source from which the menorah's shape was adopted.

Did I miss anything of substance?
 
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Jack by the hedge said:
You provided negative evidence that JK Rowling has never said her work was anything but fiction. How did you know that?

Why can't you provide similar negative evidence that Plato never said his work wasn't historical?

All you've got so far is some feature of an allegorical city being described as concentric circles, and a huge unevidenced leap to assuming that a carved pattern of concentric semicircles might represent half of that city. Except the top half is missing, which seems to me a stupid and unlikely symbol for a lost city which allegedly sank beneath the waves. And then you've got another huge leap from saying this semicircles thing at one end of the Mediterranean kinda looks a bit like a menorah from entirely the opposite end, to assuming it is really is the source from which the menorah's shape was adopted.

Did I miss anything of substance?
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It's such a simple symbol anyway. If it was the coat of arms of some noble family it would be harder to argue that it's a coincidence.
 
Craig4 said:
You're going to need to show some actual work on that one. Your silly little conjecture and misplaced smugness aren't going to carry the water for you.
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You mean like provide evidence of sunken ruins elsewhere along the Spanish coast in an arch shape?
 

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King of the Americas said:
You mean like provide evidence of sunken ruins elsewhere along the Spanish coast in an arch shape?
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How do you know that they are ruins?

This is starting to sound very circular, no pun intended. Plato is correct because you spot things that look like what you're looking for, what you're looking for is there because Plato said so, and they look like what you're looking for because that's what you're looking for.

When people point out that what you're showing doesn't correspond to what Plato said you say Plato was wrong, but you offered no way of distinguishing where he's wrong and where he's right except to trust your own intepretation of these things.
 
Cosmic Yak said:
...
BTW, does the Bible even mention Atlantis?...
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No.

The bible's authority figure instructed others to create this object made of gold, from a "pattern" on some mount.

For about 10 pages I have been saying this symbol was culturally appropriated. Those adopting the symbol are given a new and different understanding of it. Take the Easter bunny and the resurrection of Jesus. Go ask a Christian why they color eggs...
 
King of the Americas said:
No.

The bible's authority figure instructed others to create this object made of gold, from a "pattern" on some mount.

For about 10 pages I have been saying this symbol was culturally appropriated. Those adopting the symbol are given a new and different understanding of it. Take the Easter bunny and the resurrection of Jesus. Go ask a Christian why they color eggs...
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Now tie the symbol on the mountain to Atlantis.
 
Argumemnon said:
How do you know that they are ruins?

This is starting to sound very circular, no pun intended. Plato is correct because you spot things that look like what you're looking for, what you're looking for is there because Plato said so, and they look like what you're looking for because that's what you're looking for.

When people point out that what you're showing doesn't correspond to what Plato said you say Plato was wrong, but you offered no way of distinguishing where he's wrong and where he's right except to trust your own intepretation of these things.
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Sorta...

"Plato was NOT wrong, because we are finding evidence that he was not lying."

*I have posted several google earth images of sunken ruins. They are real, you can look and see them for yourself. They are distinct and clearly not natural formations.
 
King of the Americas said:
Sorta...

"Plato was NOT wrong, because we are finding evidence that he was not lying."
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Except when he's wrong. I told you that he told us the size of the island and its location out in the Atlantic. You said he was wrong then. How do you determine when he's right and when he's wrong?

They are distinct and clearly not natural formations.
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I don't trust your ability to determine what's natural and what's not from overhead pictures taken from such distances. You need more than just that.
 
King of the Americas said:
Sorta...

"Plato was NOT wrong, because we are finding evidence that he was not lying."

*I have posted several google earth images of sunken ruins. They are real, you can look and see them for yourself. They are distinct and clearly not natural formations.
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And there's nothing indicating they are part of a city called Atlantis.
 
Craig4 said:
Now tie the symbol on the mountain to Atlantis.
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Well, that's the catch, right? Which mount, what symbol?

On page one is a picture another poster inverted, flipped and re-attached to another menorah.

The image is atop a large stone and features 3 concentric circles atop a trident, the symbol for Poseidon and Atlantis, here featured as a menorah...maybe?

Other early images of what may or may not be a menorah, are not 'upright' like a lamp should be, which is now a candle-stick holder...more evidence that the symbol is being misappropriated.

In my head, this is about 'the best possible explanation'... If we KNOW the symbol was adopted, which we do, where did it come from? The only other explanation put forth was the "cup" spirals missing the 'foot' of the menorah or Poseidon trident.

I am not certain, but I think those are Celtic, northern English borne, no?

While the symbol of a city lost to the Atlantic ocean's depths would have been quite accessible to the Mediterranean Sea.

I'm gonna conclude here, by saying, I don't know for 100% absolute fact that these two symbols are connected. I would however, after reviewing the Spanish coast, Cameron's film, multiple images of old menorah's, and the provenance or lack thereof, I find that "it is most likely" that the symbol or pattern was adopted from a previously known source of power, authority, or wisdom.

Plato's descriptions of a sunken city, and the ruins now underwater, in my opinion represent the most likely origin of the symbol.

If there is a better more likely source, I would be very interested in reviewing those findings.
 
King of the Americas said:
Well, that's the catch, right? Which mount, what symbol?

On page one is a picture another poster inverted, flipped and re-attached to another menorah.

The image is atop a large stone and features 3 concentric circles atop a trident, the symbol for Poseidon and Atlantis, here featured as a menorah...maybe?
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It's all maybes. As I said, it all hinges on your layman's interpretation.
 
My case has been presented, my evidences are varied and plentiful, and I have addressed all of the points raised by the opposition.

Rather than present a case to offer a counter argument, the opposition here have engaged in a "nu-uh" defense. Plato, a renowned teacher and writer, has been brought or made low, google earth images of sunken ruins ignored, so too with biblical references of the cultural appropriation of the "pattern" of the menorah.

Until a better, more consistent, more reliable explanation is brought to bare, the best possible understanding would, for now, be had by connecting the menorah and Plato's Atlantis.

My case is thusly rested.
 
King of the Americas said:
Well, that's the catch, right? Which mount, what symbol?

On page one is a picture another poster inverted, flipped and re-attached to another menorah.

The image is atop a large stone and features 3 concentric circles atop a trident, the symbol for Poseidon and Atlantis, here featured as a menorah...maybe?

Other early images of what may or may not be a menorah, are not 'upright' like a lamp should be, which is now a candle-stick holder...more evidence that the symbol is being misappropriated.

In my head, this is about 'the best possible explanation'... If we KNOW the symbol was adopted, which we do, where did it come from? The only other explanation put forth was the "cup" spirals missing the 'foot' of the menorah or Poseidon trident.

I am not certain, but I think those are Celtic, northern English borne, no?

While the symbol of a city lost to the Atlantic ocean's depths would have been quite accessible to the Mediterranean Sea.

I'm gonna conclude here, by saying, I don't know for 100% absolute fact that these two symbols are connected. I would however, after reviewing the Spanish coast, Cameron's film, multiple images of old menorah's, and the provenance or lack thereof, I find that "it is most likely" that the symbol or pattern was adopted from a previously known source of power, authority, or wisdom.

Plato's descriptions of a sunken city, and the ruins now underwater, in my opinion represent the most likely origin of the symbol.

If there is a better more likely source, I would be very interested in reviewing those findings.
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Only because you want it to be the most likely source. It's clearly not because you put any real thought or rigor into your "work". You still can't seem to appreciate the absurdity of trying to find the symbol of a city that you can't even show exists. Your Atlantis has to exist for it to have a symbol.
 
King of the Americas said:
My case has been presented, my evidences are varied and plentiful
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A claim is not evidence for itself. You've shown us pictures, assured us that they fit Plato's description, and then said that Plato was wrong when they did not. That is a very weak case.

I have addressed all of the points raised by the opposition.
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Hilarious. You've sidestepped a number of good, important points.

Rather than present a case to offer a counter argument, the opposition here have engaged in a "nu-uh" defense.
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What a tremendous lie. The quality and nature of the evence in addition to your reasoning have ALL been addressed, and you've done nothing but repeat that you're correct. Don't pretend that your failures are anyone's fault but your own.

Plato, a renowned teacher and writer, has been brought or made low
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Plato's reputation has nothing to do with whether the evidence stands on its own or not. You are using an argument from authority, a common fallacy.

google earth images of sunken ruins ignored
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Yeah, because you can't do archeological work by looking at pictures taken from planes.

so too with biblical references of the cultural appropriation of the "pattern" of the menorah.
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...which doesn't mention Atlantis.

Until a better, more consistent, more reliable explanation is brought to bare, the best possible understanding would, for now, be had by connecting the menorah and Plato's Atlantis.
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No, it wouldn't. You have given us no reason to connect these elements together into a solid narrative.

My case is thusly rested.
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Your case is dismissed.
 
Playing courtoom again, cute.
Quite a roundabout way of stating that you won't accept any challenge to your assertions and will not provide any evidence other than your own (in)credulity.

You have nothing.
 
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