Republicans do hate education

blutoski said:
So, here's my main concern... I have been developing a thesis that Skepticism is riding this wave, rather than resisting it. ie: we're part of the trend, not a solution to it. My exit from organized skepticism was largely precipitated by my local chapter adopting a policy of "Science advocacy means educating the public that climate change is a liberal hoax. Citing any so-called expert is a fallacious Appeal to Authority - do your own research or shut up."
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Except that is not an expression of skepticism, but of dogma. It's denialism. Any skeptic who has even a rudimentary grounding in the discipline knows that the what the Appeal to Authority fallacy is referring to is an appeal to irrelevant authority, that is, someone who is an authority in an unrelated field. If someone is an authority in a relevant field, such as climatology, then their assertions and evidence should definitely be considered, and compared to the assertions and evidence of other experts to determine what the overall scientific consensus is on the issue. This sort of misuse of the Appeal to Authority fallacy accusation is a tactic of denialists, not skeptics.

It's a far too common practice these days for denialists to refer to themselves as skeptics. Despite the fact that they are not actually thinking critically, but are cherry picking or outright ignoring data depending on the degree it fits their preconceived worldview. It's an attempt used to garner some sort of ostensible legitimacy for their own dogmas, while discrediting actual critical thinkers and scientists.
 
luchog said:
Except that is not an expression of skepticism, but of dogma. It's denialism. Any skeptic who has even a rudimentary grounding in the discipline knows that the what the Appeal to Authority fallacy is referring to is an appeal to irrelevant authority, that is, someone who is an authority in an unrelated field.
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I hate to say it, but I don't think that's true. It's my 'bugaboo' if you will, precisely because there's so much hostility toward experts in general within Skepticism, which I feel is at odds with authentic critical thinking. When we give talks on Critical Thinking about Scientific Questions, we get reliably heckled.

Skeptics are just as vulnerable to Dunning Kruger as nonskeptics, unfortunately.



luchog said:
If someone is an authority in a relevant field, such as climatology, then their assertions and evidence should definitely be considered, and compared to the assertions and evidence of other experts to determine what the overall scientific consensus is on the issue. This sort of misuse of the Appeal to Authority fallacy accusation is a tactic of denialists, not skeptics.

It's a far too common practice these days for denialists to refer to themselves as skeptics. Despite the fact that they are not actually thinking critically, but are cherry picking or outright ignoring data depending on the degree it fits their preconceived worldview. It's an attempt used to garner some sort of ostensible legitimacy for their own dogmas, while discrediting actual critical thinkers and scientists.
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My issue is that a lot of skeptics fall into this category. Most of my critical thinking inventories (and I admit I haven't done one in a few years) show that skeptics are not better critical thinkers than laypersons, and are actually a bit worse at interpreting the Appeal to Authority questions. Meaning: skeptics are more likely than the national average to say that a person doesn't need to consult experts to make a decision involving specialized knowledge, skeptics are more likely to say everybody can be an expert by learning a subject independently.

What I haven't been able to do is adjust the results for possible demographic biases. Specifically, skepticism attracts a high proportion of Libertarians versus the national percentage. So, not sure if that's worth regressing out. The direction of causality is not clear.
 
Dr. Keith said:
I never before took you as lazy.

:)
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Hey, I'd love to do my own research, but having worked in research medicine for about half a decade, it's clear that I would need a few hundred million dollars just to investigate some basic questions in a laboratory setting.

And even then, I'm relying on other experts (who calibrated the IR spec? Damn, now I need to learn how to do it rather than defer to an expert's opinion. I guess I'll have to take a course. Wait: why would I trust the instructor? Y'know what, better build my own IR spec... wait how do I know they even do what they say they do?)

Eventually, every critical analysis in a specialized domain of knowledge winds up with trusting some expert (or thousands of experts, really)
 
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Argumemnon said:
That's nice. There's always been something wrong with the news media. However what's specifically wrong with it, in your view?
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I have been involved with a few (locally) major news stories over the years, and the number of mistakes that the media made while covering those stories was startling to say the least--made-up quotes, or quotes attributed to the wrong person, botched details, misspelled names, etc.

My favorite run-in with the media was about 25 years ago. A friend of mine and I were out mountain-bike riding, and returned after dark. As we rode down my street we could see easily a dozen cop cars ahead of us, lights blazing. They had set up crime scene tape around an apartment building across the street. We asked a couple of people what had happened, but all we heard was that it was an accidental shooting.

Next morning my buddy's at the door, telling me there's a news guy out front. So we go out there, and my friend asked him what had happened the night before. News guy explains that a man was showing off his gun to a friend when he accidentally fired, hitting the friend in the shoulder. The friend was okay, but the man was so distraught at what he'd done that he turned the gun on himself.

So no kidding the news guy calls the cameraman over, and asks my friend what happened the night before, gets him to repeat the story virtually verbatim. Ten seconds later, they're packing up, having gotten the clip they needed.

ETA: On the universities issue, it may just be that people are getting tired of some of the antics going on in the name of higher education. You have the generalized nuttiness of the SJW crowd (as highlighted in the last couple years at Evergreen State, Yale and Columbia and Missouri).
 
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Brainster said:
I have been involved with a few (locally) major news stories over the years, and the number of mistakes that the media made while covering those stories was startling to say the least--made-up quotes, or quotes attributed to the wrong person, botched details, misspelled names, etc.

My favorite run-in with the media was about 25 years ago. A friend of mine and I were out mountain-bike riding, and returned after dark. As we rode down my street we could see easily a dozen cop cars ahead of us, lights blazing. They had set up crime scene tape around an apartment building across the street. We asked a couple of people what had happened, but all we heard was that it was an accidental shooting.

Next morning my buddy's at the door, telling me there's a news guy out front. So we go out there, and my friend asked him what had happened the night before. News guy explains that a man was showing off his gun to a friend when he accidentally fired, hitting the friend in the shoulder. The friend was okay, but the man was so distraught at what he'd done that he turned the gun on himself.

So no kidding the news guy calls the cameraman over, and asks my friend what happened the night before, gets him to repeat the story virtually verbatim. Ten seconds later, they're packing up, having gotten the clip they needed.
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When I did ghost investigations, I worked with an established society that had a website and about 20 years of history. Come October, their phone was ringing off the hook for interviews or ride alongs on our investigations, and I was always very depressed with the results.

One that comes to mind was an investigation that was a total bust (as usual - my presence seems to have Goat Effected our vigils). The reporter had obtained anecdotes from the owners of the property about what previous owners had told them, and he compiled all the events into a story as if they all happened during the investigation. Total fabrication.

But he got his story, his editor must have been happy, he circled back to us the following October, having completely forgotten he had ever spoken to us before.

In terms of whether this is getting worse? Hard to say, since the entire concept of 'media' and 'journalism' has changed. Everybody's a reporter now.
 
Brainster said:
I have been involved with a few (locally) major news stories over the years, and the number of mistakes that the media made while covering those stories was startling to say the least--made-up quotes, or quotes attributed to the wrong person, botched details, misspelled names, etc.

My favorite run-in with the media was about 25 years ago. A friend of mine and I were out mountain-bike riding, and returned after dark. As we rode down my street we could see easily a dozen cop cars ahead of us, lights blazing. They had set up crime scene tape around an apartment building across the street. We asked a couple of people what had happened, but all we heard was that it was an accidental shooting.

Next morning my buddy's at the door, telling me there's a news guy out front. So we go out there, and my friend asked him what had happened the night before. News guy explains that a man was showing off his gun to a friend when he accidentally fired, hitting the friend in the shoulder. The friend was okay, but the man was so distraught at what he'd done that he turned the gun on himself.

So no kidding the news guy calls the cameraman over, and asks my friend what happened the night before, gets him to repeat the story virtually verbatim. Ten seconds later, they're packing up, having gotten the clip they needed.

ETA: On the universities issue, it may just be that people are getting tired of some of the antics going on in the name of higher education. You have the generalized nuttiness of the SJW crowd (as highlighted in the last couple years at Evergreen State, Yale and Columbia and Missouri).
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At least POTUS nor any of advisors own any of big papers or stations... (We have such fun over here and it is not pretty)
 
blutoski said:
In terms of whether this is getting worse? Hard to say, since the entire concept of 'media' and 'journalism' has changed. Everybody's a reporter now.
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James B and I were mentioned in a book about 10 years ago; IIRC it was titled, "Watching the Watchdogs," and it was about how bloggers were holding the mainstream media accountable. That, I'd say, is the good side of new media. But the bad side is really, really bad. You've got people like Louise Mensch and Claude Taylor completely making stuff up and as a result they've become Twitter and Web superstars.
 
Argumemnon said:
Where in his post does he say that?
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There was a long list of things that are an inherent part of a good liberal arts education. So it didn't seem a leap to me.

phiwum said:
The poll results are discouraging, sure. But, Travis, did you notice that over a quarter of Democrats "hate education" and "believe having a degree means you are a bad, bad person?"

Or maybe there's some other reason persons would answer the poll the way they did. Don't be too damned keen on pointing out the Republicans 58% when the Democrats have 28% answering the same way. That's not a comforting fact about Democratic opinions.
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The numbers 58 vs 28. Which is bigger? Which is a majority?

mgidm86 said:
Lie. Outrageous hyperbole is not an endearing quality, though you seem determined to make that your thing.
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Have you never read anything I post?
 
luchog said:
I was raised Religious Right Republican back during the Reagan years for the most part, and "universities are bad for America" was very much a popular meme in the community at that time. Or rather, it was, "secular universities are bad for America"; and the push was very strong for Christian universities; institutions such as Bob Jones and Oral Roberts universities being the big names among the Evangelical communities. The point, of course, was to ensure sufficient Christian indoctrination, and prevent Christians from being exposed to ungodly stuff like science and critical thinking and other subjects that "contradict Biblical principles".

As the power of the Religious Right wing of the GOP grew, so did the inherent anti-intellectualism of the Right in general, and the push away from secular university education.

There has always been a streak of anti-intellectualism in the US, going back to its earliest days; and the Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christian movements have exacerbated that to a great degree. While the upper-class Republicans still push for university education, not being particularly closely associated with the more fanatical Christian movements, the rank and file is increasingly anti-education.

This is due in large part to the fundamentally black-and-white, for-us-or-against-us worldview and thought processes common to the intensely religious. Anything that challenges or criticizes their worldview in any way is inherently evil, and guilt-by-association tars a great deal more with the same brush, whether that's education or the news media. With regard to the latter, they also seem to be fundamentally unable to separate factual reporting from editorial opinion; mainly because in their worldview there is no distinct line between the two.
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For what it's worth, Oral Roberts University taught evolution back in the late eighties. I picked up a booklet at their bookstore on how evangelicals should view the inconsistencies between evolution and the Bible. This booklet was necessary because ORU students would learn evolutionary theory back then.

I think that evangelical belief had become more stubborn and entrenched since then, so I wouldn't bet that evolution is still part of the curriculum.
 
phiwum said:
For what it's worth, Oral Roberts University taught evolution back in the late eighties. I picked up a booklet at their bookstore on how evangelicals should view the inconsistencies between evolution and the Bible. This booklet was necessary because ORU students would learn evolutionary theory back then.
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Their curriculum on the theory of evolution was, as I recall, highly distorted and dramatically out of date with what was the consensus at the time. I may be conflating them with one of the other universities. I do recall that in my reading at the time, much was made of the ostensible difference between "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution", with the former being considered acceptable, and the latter receiving the bulk of the denialism.

I think that evangelical belief had become more stubborn and entrenched since then, so I wouldn't bet that evolution is still part of the curriculum.
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That would be my bet, or it would appear, but in a grossly distorted fashion with lots of qualifications and religious denialism added. Which is odd, considering there really isn't anything in it that's fundamentally incompatible with scripture, unless one takes a ludicrously hardline, young-earth, literalist interpretation that is not in any way supported by scripture.
 
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luchog said:
Their curriculum on the theory of evolution was, as I recall, highly distorted and dramatically out of date with what was the consensus at the time. I may be conflating them with one of the other universities. I do recall that in my reading at the time, much was made of the ostensible difference between "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution", with the former being considered acceptable, and the latter receiving the bulk of the denialism.




That would be my bet, or it would appear, but in a grossly distorted fashion with lots of qualifications and religious denialism added. Which is odd, considering there really isn't anything in it that's fundamentally incompatible with scripture, unless one takes a ludicrously hardline, young-earth, literalist interpretation that is not in any way supported by scripture.
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They never have been the same since they had to let in blacks.
 
Travis said:
See poll results which show Republicans believe having a degree means you are a bad, bad person.

http://www.people-press.org/2017/07/10/sharp-partisan-divisions-in-views-of-national-institutions/

Specifically see how 58% of Republicans say that universities are bad for America. And see that this only happened in the past year. Prior to 2015 Republicans still saw education as a good thing. Now they hate it because they see it as an assault on their Beloved Trump God.

Or maybe it is part of the larger trend where Republicans simply hate everything "libtards" love? Because 72% of Democrats still think universities are a good thing.

I expect yoga instruction to be outlawed, punishable by catapult, any day now.
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Republickers hate a lot of good stuff - and love the hell out of bad things. Apparently it is a curse upon them.
 
I think it's more accurate to say that "Republicans" are coming to loathe and mistrust an academic class that combines self-righteousness, authoritarianism, and incompetence in a toxic cancer on our society.

People look at the recent news from Evergreen College. They think about the kind of citizens that are being produced at that institution. They think about the indications that something like that, to one degree or another, is happening throughout the American institutions of higher learning. What's to trust, in that? What's to like?
 
luchog said:
Their curriculum on the theory of evolution was, as I recall, highly distorted and dramatically out of date with what was the consensus at the time. I may be conflating them with one of the other universities. I do recall that in my reading at the time, much was made of the ostensible difference between "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution", with the former being considered acceptable, and the latter receiving the bulk of the denialism.
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You could be right about the micro/macro distinction. It has been a long time since I read that booklet and I really don't remember the advice.
 
theprestige said:
I think it's more accurate to say that "Republicans" are coming to loathe and mistrust an academic class that combines self-righteousness, authoritarianism, and incompetence in a toxic cancer on our society.

People look at the recent news from Evergreen College. They think about the kind of citizens that are being produced at that institution. They think about the indications that something like that, to one degree or another, is happening throughout the American institutions of higher learning. What's to trust, in that? What's to like?
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My experience in a few academic institutions suggests that Evergreen is an outlier. This is, of course, merely anecdotal but I don't see political correctness run amok.
 
phiwum said:
My experience in a few academic institutions suggests that Evergreen is an outlier. This is, of course, merely anecdotal but I don't see political correctness run amok.
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Political correctness on campus is part of the trend of anti-intellectualism in general. It's common for the targets to be 'the aministration' - the protests are usually a rejection of the establishment, a rejection of authority.

It's students lecturing profs, basically, which is part of the War On Expertise.
 
phiwum said:
My experience in a few academic institutions suggests that Evergreen is an outlier. This is, of course, merely anecdotal but I don't see political correctness run amok.
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Evergreen State College is indeed an outlier in many, many ways. Deliberately so, as they are structured and function completely differently from just about any other major college or university in the US. "Greener" staff and students are proud of this fact, and the school attracts a large number of "alternative" culture types, especially the types commonly known as "trust fund hippies".

blutoski said:
Political correctness on campus is part of the trend of anti-intellectualism in general. It's common for the targets to be 'the aministration' - the protests are usually a rejection of the establishment, a rejection of authority.

It's students lecturing profs, basically, which is part of the War On Expertise.
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The "trend" has been a prominent reality of university life since at least the 1960s, reaching a peak during the Vietnam War, and exemplified by the likes of UC Berkeley.
 
luchog said:
Evergreen State College is indeed an outlier in many, many ways. Deliberately so, as they are structured and function completely differently from just about any other major college or university in the US. "Greener" staff and students are proud of this fact, and the school attracts a large number of "alternative" culture types, especially the types commonly known as "trust fund hippies".




The "trend" has been a prominent reality of university life since at least the 1960s, reaching a peak during the Vietnam War, and exemplified by the likes of UC Berkeley.
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Sort of... I'm referring to a different sort of trend, which is challenges within their own domains of expertise. eg: first year math students arguing with their math profs about math (as opposed to about politics).

Tom Nichols couches this in context with grade inflation. The concern is that university has shifted from being a source of education to being a business that sells degrees. Customer is King, and students are customers, and therefore, always right under this model.
 
blutoski said:
Sort of... I'm referring to a different sort of trend, which is challenges within their own domains of expertise. eg: first year math students arguing with their math profs about math (as opposed to about politics).

Tom Nichols couches this in context with grade inflation. The concern is that university has shifted from being a source of education to being a business that sells degrees. Customer is King, and students are customers, and therefore, always right under this model.
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Arguing about math by people taking a low level intro course sounds really stupid. Maybe time to melt some special snowflakes with zeroes or Fs!!!!!!!!

Boldening and reddening in above post is by me to make stupidity emphasized!!!!!!
 
fuelair said:
Arguing about math by people taking a low level intro course sounds really stupid. Maybe time to melt some special snowflakes with zeroes or Fs!!!!!!!!
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Not in today's academic world. That might result in a poor review. Instructor salaries and job security are very dependent on student reviews.

Also: the parents sue. (They paid the university for straight As, so this teacher has to go). A quote I heard from a prof recently was that it's not the helicopter parents he fears, it's the B-52 Bomber parents.
 
theprestige said:
I think it's more accurate to say that "Republicans" are coming to loathe and mistrust an academic class that combines self-righteousness, authoritarianism, and incompetence in a toxic cancer on our society.

People look at the recent news from Evergreen College. They think about the kind of citizens that are being produced at that institution. They think about the indications that something like that, to one degree or another, is happening throughout the American institutions of higher learning. What's to trust, in that? What's to like?
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And the Prof at Mizzou asking where the muscle was, and the "protesters" at UC Berkley blocking a bridge and not letting any white students use it, and the list goes on and on.

Such things have nothing to do with "education," of course, yet it is remarkable how many posters in the thread seemingly believe the headline.
 
blutoski said:
Not in today's academic world. That might result in a poor review. Instructor salaries and job security are very dependent on student reviews.

Also: the parents sue. (They paid the university for straight As, so this teacher has to go). A quote I heard from a prof recently was that it's not the helicopter parents he fears, it's the B-52 Bomber parents.
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**** them too, with bells on!!!!! Up the wazoo!!!
 
The Big Dog said:
And the Prof at Mizzou asking where the muscle was, and the "protesters" at UC Berkley blocking a bridge and not letting any white students use it, and the list goes on and on.

Such things have nothing to do with "education," of course, yet it is remarkable how many posters in the thread seemingly believe the headline.
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Actually it does. These kids are finally getting an education for the first time. No longer do they have to believe exactly what dad believes lest they get beaten. No longer are they in a school where whackjob parents control the school board and dictate weird evangelical biases.

They are for the first time free to use their minds. Free to understand that the nation they were indoctrinated to believe is the "Best, Prefect 100% #1" actually has huge problems. They are learning for the first time that Jesus actually didn't ride around on dinosaurs that got left off Noah's Ark.

So all that stuff you hate is just the result of kids finally no longer being under the thumb of their nutjob conservative parents. They tend to over-correct a bit at first. It is just part of the process of them being allowed to know how the world actually works for the first time.
 
Travis said:
Actually it does. These kids are finally getting an education for the first time. No longer do they have to believe exactly what dad believes lest they get beaten. No longer are they in a school where whackjob parents control the school board and dictate weird evangelical biases.

They are for the first time free to use their minds. Free to understand that the nation they were indoctrinated to believe is the "Best, Prefect 100% #1" actually has huge problems. They are learning for the first time that Jesus actually didn't ride around on dinosaurs that got left off Noah's Ark.

So all that stuff you hate is just the result of kids finally no longer being under the thumb of their nutjob conservative parents. They tend to over-correct a bit at first. It is just part of the process of them being allowed to know how the world actually works for the first time.
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Yeah, no. That isnt what's going on, at all. Most of those protesters do not have abusively strict conservative parents. Nor do most of them have any clue about how the world actually works. Your post reads like middle school fiction.
 
Travis said:
Actually it does. These kids are finally getting an education for the first time. No longer do they have to believe exactly what dad believes lest they get beaten. No longer are they in a school where whackjob parents control the school board and dictate weird evangelical biases.

They are for the first time free to use their minds. Free to understand that the nation they were indoctrinated to believe is the "Best, Prefect 100% #1" actually has huge problems. They are learning for the first time that Jesus actually didn't ride around on dinosaurs that got left off Noah's Ark.

So all that stuff you hate is just the result of kids finally no longer being under the thumb of their nutjob conservative parents. They tend to over-correct a bit at first. It is just part of the process of them being allowed to know how the world actually works for the first time.
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Good lord! I shudder to ponder what you think inner city kids go through!
 
Travis said:
Actually it does. These kids are finally getting an education for the first time. No longer do they have to believe exactly what dad believes lest they get beaten....
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I stopped reading right there, and started laughing. Not only does that nonsense completely ignore what I wrote it shows an unbelievable ignorance of history.

Anyone with even the most rudimentary education about real college protests in the 1960's and 70's would find that rant utterly laughable.

Fantastic.
 
Travis said:
See poll results which show Republicans believe having a degree means you are a bad, bad person.

http://www.people-press.org/2017/07/10/sharp-partisan-divisions-in-views-of-national-institutions/

Specifically see how 58% of Republicans say that universities are bad for America. And see that this only happened in the past year. Prior to 2015 Republicans still saw education as a good thing. Now they hate it because they see it as an assault on their Beloved Trump God.

Or maybe it is part of the larger trend where Republicans simply hate everything "libtards" love? Because 72% of Democrats still think universities are a good thing.

I expect yoga instruction to be outlawed, punishable by catapult, any day now.
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As to the title, I presume because they have none and no idea where to get some............
 
phiwum said:
I'm genuinely puzzled. What is your point?
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Not his point, UNESCO's. He is just quoting it. Unesco is saying/writing that better education makes the individuals gaining such become greater users of scarce/scarcish resources because their knowledge gives them access to more stuff. Which is pretty much how this has always worked except in completely subsistence cultures. Hope this clarifies it for you!!!!!:):)
 
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“Why does a kid go to a major university these days?” said Antenori, 51, a former Green Beret who served in the Arizona state legislature. “A lot of Republicans would say they go there to get brainwashed and learn how to become activists and basically go out in the world and cause trouble.”

Antenori is part of an increasingly vocal campaign to transform higher education in America. Though U.S. universities are envied around the world, he and other conservatives want to reduce the flow of government cash to what they see as elitist, politically correct institutions that often fail to provide practical skills for the job market.

To the alarm of many educators, nearly every state has cut funding to public colleges and universities since the 2008 financial crisis. Adjusted for inflation, states spent $5.7 billion less on public higher education last year than in 2008, even though they were educating more than 800,000 additional students, according to the State Higher Education Executive Officers Association.

In Arizona, which has had a Republican governor and legislature since 2009, lawmakers have cut spending for higher education by 54 percent since 2008; the state now spends $3,500 less per year on every student, according to the progressive Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. Tuition has soared, forcing students to shoulder more of the cost of their degrees.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/

America needs an educated workforce, and a workforce willing to reeducate themselves, to keep up with a rapidly changing marketplace cause otherwise you get places like the rust belt and other regions that experience social decay.

Or you can drown your sorrows with opioids, alcohol and pin your hopes on the empty promises of con artists like Trump.
 
Just remember - 100% of the respondents are the sort of people who participate in polls about crap like this.
 
But I would respond to a poll like this....

.....oh.
 
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