Microsoft Edge is safer than Firefox ...

GlennB

Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
GlennB
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Or so MS has been telling me, off and on for a few months, as I start up a FF session :rolleyes:

But there's a little 'x' in the pop-up that carries this handy advice, so I click it and it goes away. Until tonight, when I clicked the 'x' and it started up an Edge session.

Is this even legal? Is it OK to intrude on someone's obvious choice just because it's your o/s that's handling the whole business?

You walk into Tesco and buy some branded pasta. The packet speaks to you: "Tesco 'own brand' pasta is just as good and cheaper!"

Are we doomed?
 
fagin said:
Maybe you are drunk and missed the X.
Click to expand...

I'll be very careful next time and maybe even take screen shots, but I certainly didn't click anything that said "Demonstrate to me now the joys of Edge", just as I didn't opt to upgrade to Win10 - the damn thing was sprung upon me through MS subterfuge.

And no, not drunk ;)
 
Yup, they pulled off the same stunt with the "Upgrade to Win 10" harassment, so it's not difficult to believe. For me such crap only exists in reports, though. You don't need Windows, Glenn.

www.mageia.org

In other words: "Mit Linux wär' das nicht passiert" (insider for Germans with any IT background). ;)
 
Hmm ... weren't you the one who wasn't "adventurous" enough to buy a refurbished quality PC? Is that happening on the new one? How is it?

edit: Oops... no, that wasn't GlennB, it was MikeG. You folks and your usernames. At least you two have avatars. :p
 
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At the risk of derailing this thread altogether, is there anything you do on your computer that can't be done in Linux?

I confess I get a bit upset when I hear people complaining about Windows and Microsoft's incessant games with its users when there's a perfectly viable and much less user-hostile alternative out there. Yes, there's a learning curve, but so there was also with Windows 3.1 --> XP, then XP --> Vista/7, then 7 --> 8/8.1, and finally 8.1 --> 10. And with every release Microsoft is making it more their computer instead of your computer.
 
Blue Mountain said:
At the risk of derailing this thread altogether, is there anything you do on your computer that can't be done in Linux?
Click to expand...

Probably not, though I haven't looked into it much. In fact a Unix variant doesn't scare me as I spent about 10 years deeply involved with Unix (mostly Solaris running Oracle dbs) and it could be fun to renew that acquaintance. But I imagine the interface would be geared towards ex-Windows users and pointy-clicky, and Unix knowledge wouldn't be much use?

Enough stupid questions from me ... is Linux enough like Windows that the many pages of instructions I've typed up so MrsB can manipulate her photos and manage her documents etc, without my endless intervention to help her, will still be valid?

I'm happy to learn the new tweaks for Linux, but I'm not the only person on these PCs.
 
GlennB said:
Or so MS has been telling me, off and on for a few months, as I start up a FF session :rolleyes:

But there's a little 'x' in the pop-up that carries this handy advice, so I click it and it goes away. Until tonight, when I clicked the 'x' and it started up an Edge session.

Is this even legal? Is it OK to intrude on someone's obvious choice just because it's your o/s that's handling the whole business?
Click to expand...

It's well known that IT companies know more than you what you want to do with your computer.
 
I wonder if there has ever been any more pointless advice in a thread about a Windows issue than "Don't use Windows."

I doubt it.
 
Babbylonian said:
I wonder if there has ever been any more pointless advice in a thread about a Windows issue than "Don't use Windows."

I doubt it.
Click to expand...

Happens all the time when someone in a thread, anywhere, asks for advice about a problem with a particular piece of software. Some smartass always comes in to suggest not using said software, as if the person asking for advice would never have thought of it. The very act of asking presumes that this isn't the option they've chosen yet.
 
paulhutch said:
This article will guide you through disabling almost all of it.
https://www.howtogeek.com/269331/how-to-disable-all-of-windows-10s-built-in-advertising/
Click to expand...

Good one.

Right now, knock on wood, this build (15063.540) of Win10 (Prox64) is giving me no headaches, and an unbelievably clean Event Viewer (after light fixing). Motherboard is overclocking well when asked, as is the video card, and I finally have a stable and excellent working 3D setup for media and games. GOG and Steam keep me busy when not working (OMG, Full Throttle Remastered).

Which is why I now live in fear of the next big OS update, which will be sure to need fixing.

ETA: I'm on FF. I use Edge for viewing pdfs.
 
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GlennB said:
But I imagine the interface would be geared towards ex-Windows users and pointy-clicky, and Unix knowledge wouldn't be much use?
Click to expand...
Most popular Linux distros are very GUI-friendly, but they've all retained the unix style terminal, with piping, regexp, etc.

Enough stupid questions from me ... is Linux enough like Windows that the many pages of instructions I've typed up so MrsB can manipulate her photos and manage her documents etc, without my endless intervention to help her, will still be valid?
Click to expand...

Depends. There ARE differences, ranging from the minor: renaming files requires right clicking and going to "Rename..." rather than clicking on the name and pausing; to the major: lack of a good drop-in replacement for MS Paint. There are a number of excellent, more professional options for various tasks, like Gimp and Inkscape, but a simple "I want to draw a dick on GlennB's face for making me use this thing" is much more complicated than it needs to be, for whatever reason.
 
Beelzebuddy said:
lack of a good drop-in replacement for MS Paint. There are a number of excellent, more professional options for various tasks, like Gimp and Inkscape, but a simple "I want to draw a dick on GlennB's face for making me use this thing" is much more complicated than it needs to be, for whatever reason.
Click to expand...


My mageia came with KolourPaint. Looks pretty straight forward.
 
Beelzebuddy said:
Most popular Linux distros are very GUI-friendly, but they've all retained the unix style terminal, with piping, regexp, etc.
Click to expand...

OK, but as a PC Linux user I won't be expected to dip into grep and sed and chmod and (heaven forbid) awk on a routine basis? I'm guessing not.

Beelzebuddy said:
Depends. There ARE differences, ranging from the minor: renaming files requires right clicking and going to "Rename..." rather than clicking on the name and pausing; to the major: lack of a good drop-in replacement for MS Paint. There are a number of excellent, more professional options for various tasks, like Gimp and Inkscape, but a simple "I want to draw a dick on GlennB's face for making me use this thing" is much more complicated than it needs to be, for whatever reason.
Click to expand...

MrsB does this kind of thing in MS Paint already and posts the results on FB, so maybe a switch to Linux could be a good thing.
 
GlennB said:
Probably not, though I haven't looked into it much. In fact a Unix variant doesn't scare me as I spent about 10 years deeply involved with Unix (mostly Solaris running Oracle dbs) and it could be fun to renew that acquaintance. But I imagine the interface would be geared towards ex-Windows users and pointy-clicky, and Unix knowledge wouldn't be much use?

Enough stupid questions from me ... is Linux enough like Windows that the many pages of instructions I've typed up so MrsB can manipulate her photos and manage her documents etc, without my endless intervention to help her, will still be valid?

I'm happy to learn the new tweaks for Linux, but I'm not the only person on these PCs.
Click to expand...

I think Ubuntu and variants (my current favorite being Xubuntu) are fairly close to be suitable replacements for Windows for most everyday usage (surfing the web, watching videos, email, word processing, photo collection and manipulation etc.).

That being said, there is no 1-to-1 replacement Linux distro I am aware of that behaves exactly like Windows. There's always a bit of a learning curve – though most Linux distros I have tried have a MUCH more streamlined and logical user interface behavior than Win, in particular Win 10.

You can always try. One easy way I like to use for that is virtualization through the free Virtualbox. Works pretty well with Win 10 as host. (Theoretically, it should also be possible to use Linux as host, and run Win as guest with VirtualBox, but I think the current driver signing BS Microsoft has introduced throws some major obstacles in the way for Win 10.)
 
Since the OP is riding along the Linux drift I don't feel guilty for adding to the 'derail' ...

I've been using a Win7 / Mint 18 dual boot on a desktop and a Win10 / Mint 18 dual boot on a laptop for quite a while, and in many ways I don't see Linux Mint as being more divergent from Win7 as Win10. IOW, jumping from one to the other will bring change, but if you start on Win7 then going to either Win10 or Mint would take roughly the same amount of relearning. Edit to clarify : since you're already on 10 my main point is trying to speak to how much relearning you'd do moving away from 10. Think of what was relearned going from 7->10, and that's about the amount (IMHO) you'd do going from 10->Mint 18.

All the standard patching and updating for Mint I've been able to do within the GUI - it's only when I'm trying to tweak something (like the dual boot options) that I have to go command line.

If it weren't for gaming I'd not be bothering with the Win10 install.
 
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Babbylonian said:
I wonder if there has ever been any more pointless advice in a thread about a Windows issue than "Don't use Windows."

I doubt it.
Click to expand...

I see it more along the lines of:

Patient. Doctor, every time I drink coffee I get horrible heartburn and a nasty rash all over my back.

Doctor. Have you considered not drinking coffee?


Argumemnon said:
Happens all the time when someone in a thread, anywhere, asks for advice about a problem with a particular piece of software. Some smartass always comes in to suggest not using said software, as if the person asking for advice would never have thought of it. The very act of asking presumes that this isn't the option they've chosen yet.
Click to expand...

When it comes to Windows and all the attendant crap Microsoft is doing to peoples' computers, yes, I highly suspect a lot of them don't know there's a viable alternative to it. Microsoft has done a superb job of getting people to think that "PC" == "Windows." It's not. A PC is a computer, and Windows is one of the operating systems you can run on it.
 
Windows has been a thorn in my side since they took the folder.jpg flat thumbnail view out. I have actual terabytes of graphics files and that is the only sane way to find what I'm hunting, but apparently my choices are moving to Apple architecture, which I really can't afford, or getting someone to set up a virtual XP environment just to view my files (at least according to my daughter). And no, XP compatibility mode doesn't help.

I need to be able to use certain applications for my job, too, like Photoshop. Gimp can't substitute when I need to use actual Photoshop plugins for parts of it. So I'm basically stuck with a rock or a hard place for an OS.
 
Blue Mountain said:
I see it more along the lines of:

Patient. Doctor, every time I drink coffee I get horrible heartburn and a nasty rash all over my back.

Doctor. Have you considered not drinking coffee?
Click to expand...
Sure, except that a fairly benign computer issue isn't exactly comparable to gastroesophageal reflux disease or a food allergy. Also, not drinking coffee doesn't inconvenience anyone else - the cups remain functional for everyone who lives in the house.

Apart from that specific, dumb analogy, Windows has its drawbacks and it has its benefits. One significant benefit is the ease of getting help with it; so many people use Windows that it would be possible to stop someone on the street and get productive assistance with Windows. For most people, there's also the fact that not only are they used to dealing with the operating system but virtually any computer they might buy in the future will likely have a version of Windows on it.

The bottom line is that the OP didn't request advice about switching operating systems, and offering that advice for such a minor problem is akin to recommending the use of a fuel-air bomb to remove a stump.
 
deadrose said:
I need to be able to use certain applications for my job, too, like Photoshop. Gimp can't substitute when I need to use actual Photoshop plugins for parts of it. So I'm basically stuck with a rock or a hard place for an OS.
Click to expand...


That's one of the two serious reasons why one can't switch to Linux: professional software that just isn't running, Adobe software being actually the most common example.

The other one (and I'm dismissing MrsB here just to keep it technical) is obscure hardware where drivers just aren't available. For a lot of obscure hardware drivers are available, but you have to go under the hood to make them running.

The thing is that in 2017, it is easy to find out if the second reason applies, as you just have to download an image that you burn to a DVD and boot your PC with to see what the experience is (and if you don't like it you remove the DVD and boot your totalitarian OS again without anything being changed).

Likely you'll end up with that odd grep command just to prove a point, not because you have to.
 
Babbylonian said:
The bottom line is that the OP didn't request advice about switching operating systems, and offering that advice for such a minor problem is akin to recommending the use of a fuel-air bomb to remove a stump.
Click to expand...


The OP was steaming off, not for the first time, about the products from the company you apparently are invested in so much that you write up several posts that are just complaints without any information value. The OP isn't asking for help, it is going all Spengler on us.
 
Babbylonian said:
Sure, except that a fairly benign computer issue isn't exactly comparable to gastroesophageal reflux disease or a food allergy. Also, not drinking coffee doesn't inconvenience anyone else - the cups remain functional for everyone who lives in the house.

Apart from that specific, dumb analogy, Windows has its drawbacks and it has its benefits. One significant benefit is the ease of getting help with it; so many people use Windows that it would be possible to stop someone on the street and get productive assistance with Windows.
Click to expand...
On that point, It really depends on how technical the problem is. I've run into lots of issues with Windows where various message boards are filled with "well, this worked me me" type of answers, and not even people with a lot of experience with the product in question had answers. It looked a lot like the blind leading the blind.

For most people, there's also the fact that not only are they used to dealing with the operating system but virtually any computer they might buy in the future will likely have a version of Windows on it.
Click to expand...
True, but it would be nice to see that trend change.

It seems to me that Microsoft is trying to see just how much they can screw over the customers before they finally wake up and and yell, "ENOUGH, ALREADY!" So far they've forced a conversion to Windows 10 on practically everyone, are shoving ads at them, installing unwanted software on their systems, and sending lots of telemetry data back to Microsoft. Just what's getting sent (is it PPSI--Personal, Private and Sensitive Information?) and how it's being stored and accessed is still a bit of a mystery,

The bottom line is that the OP didn't request advice about switching operating systems, and offering that advice for such a minor problem is akin to recommending the use of a fuel-air bomb to remove a stump.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. Except Microsoft pulled this exact same stunt with their forced upgrade to Windows 10, and then promised they wouldn't do it again. That and the fact this sort of sleazy behaviour is endemic to Microsoft, and it shows in their products. To me the minor problem reported in the OP is akin to a skin mole. It could just be a mole, or it could be melanoma.

Given that it was a problem with Windows, I'm more inclined to think it's melanoma, primarily because of Microsoft's long history of mistreating their users. That's why I wanted to let a larger audience know there are alternatives out there that don't treat you that way.
 
Blue Mountain said:
When it comes to Windows and all the attendant crap Microsoft is doing to peoples' computers, yes, I highly suspect a lot of them don't know there's a viable alternative to it. Microsoft has done a superb job of getting people to think that "PC" == "Windows." It's not. A PC is a computer, and Windows is one of the operating systems you can run on it.
Click to expand...

There's a difference between answering a request and then going on to suggest alternatives, and just posting "don't use [product X] lol".
 
Blue Mountain said:
On that point, It really depends on how technical the problem is. I've run into lots of issues with Windows where various message boards are filled with "well, this worked me me" type of answers, and not even people with a lot of experience with the product in question had answers. It looked a lot like the blind leading the blind.


True, but it would be nice to see that trend change.

It seems to me that Microsoft is trying to see just how much they can screw over the customers before they finally wake up and and yell, "ENOUGH, ALREADY!" So far they've forced a conversion to Windows 10 on practically everyone, are shoving ads at them, installing unwanted software on their systems, and sending lots of telemetry data back to Microsoft. Just what's getting sent (is it PPSI--Personal, Private and Sensitive Information?) and how it's being stored and accessed is still a bit of a mystery,


Fair enough. Except Microsoft pulled this exact same stunt with their forced upgrade to Windows 10, and then promised they wouldn't do it again. That and the fact this sort of sleazy behaviour is endemic to Microsoft, and it shows in their products. To me the minor problem reported in the OP is akin to a skin mole. It could just be a mole, or it could be melanoma.

Given that it was a problem with Windows, I'm more inclined to think it's melanoma, primarily because of Microsoft's long history of mistreating their users. That's why I wanted to let a larger audience know there are alternatives out there that don't treat you that way.
Click to expand...
It's worth noting that Microsoft never ever made money from the end users. The big money came in with licensing from big corporations – either PC manufacturers, or big corporations outfitting their offices. In the latter case, the end users never had a say about the software (that was decided in upper middle management – which never really had to work with the software in depth – and the IT department, who never would suggest anything that would endanger their job). Private users always took what the manufacturer bundled and what came with the machine. Or, in some cases for Office, got a license deal from their employers, university etc – not because they wanted, but because they were told "Use THAT".
 
The request seems to be "Is this legal? Is it morally acceptable? Are we doomed?"

"That is what Microsoft does, here is a good non-Microsoft option" seems to be a perfectly good answer to me.


GlennB said:
OK, but as a PC Linux user I won't be expected to dip into grep and sed and chmod and (heaven forbid) awk on a routine basis? I'm guessing not.
Click to expand...
No, but they're available if you want them. I prefer file searching via "find . | grep whatever" because it's faster and I can use regular expressions. But other than that and the occasional chmod to execute unfamiliar scripts I download from shady web sites, I don't need to hit the terminal for routine tasks.


One other highly beneficial change since the Unix days: you can install Linux on a thumb drive, boot from there, and muck about until you decide whether or not it works for you without any change to the existing drives.
 
Blue Mountain said:
Fair enough. Except Microsoft pulled this exact same stunt with their forced upgrade to Windows 10, and then promised they wouldn't do it again. That and the fact this sort of sleazy behaviour is endemic to Microsoft, and it shows in their products. To me the minor problem reported in the OP is akin to a skin mole. It could just be a mole, or it could be melanoma.
Click to expand...

Melodramatic much?

We don't know what happened. It could have been a misclick, a message could have been misread (Sorry GlennB) of the screen because of presumed familiarity

We have one case of "This weird thing happened to me" and everyone's on the MS doom train.
 
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Mongrel said:
Melodramatic much?

We don't know what happened. It could have been a misclick, a message could have been misread (Sorry GlennB) of the screen because of presumed familiarity

We have one case of "This weird thing happened to me" and everyone's on the MS doom train.
Click to expand...

No, those are fair points. But here is a sample of the kind of message I got. Note that the 'x' overlaps the blue area and there is no 'click here for more information' area. In fact the user is drawn to click in the little arrow-like area at the bottom. At worst I missed the 'x' by a fraction.
 

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paulhutch said:
This article will guide you through disabling almost all of it.
https://www.howtogeek.com/269331/how-to-disable-all-of-windows-10s-built-in-advertising/
Click to expand...
Oookay. I'd heard there were ads in windows 10, but what in the blue hell is all of that?

It's like hearing that someone beats their wife, versus seeing her show up with bruises that she swears are her own fault, really, she should have known to turn off the "Get tips, tricks, and suggestions as you use Windows" option in the settings > system > notifications & actions menu.

It seems to me that you're not in a healthy relationship with your OS vendor any more. Operating Systems should not do these things. Maybe you can turn the ads/tracking/etc off for now, but they'll just keep coming back.
 
GlennB said:
Or so MS has been telling me, off and on for a few months, as I start up a FF session :rolleyes:

But there's a little 'x' in the pop-up that carries this handy advice, so I click it and it goes away. Until tonight, when I clicked the 'x' and it started up an Edge session.

Is this even legal? Is it OK to intrude on someone's obvious choice just because it's your o/s that's handling the whole business?

You walk into Tesco and buy some branded pasta. The packet speaks to you: "Tesco 'own brand' pasta is just as good and cheaper!"

Are we doomed?
Click to expand...

It's typical MS dirty work.

I have to use W10 at work.

I'd like to find out who came up with that cluster **** and beat them in front of their kids.
 
Beelzebuddy said:
Oookay. I'd heard there were ads in windows 10, but what in the blue hell is all of that?

It's like hearing that someone beats their wife, versus seeing her show up with bruises that she swears are her own fault, really, she should have known to turn off the "Get tips, tricks, and suggestions as you use Windows" option in the settings > system > notifications & actions menu.

It seems to me that you're not in a healthy relationship with your OS vendor any more. Operating Systems should not do these things. Maybe you can turn the ads/tracking/etc off for now, but they'll just keep coming back.
Click to expand...

Amen.

You downloaded a perfectly respectable utility after checking out its bona fidesand accepted the default installation ("recommended") and found your default browser had changed/you acquired an unwanted browser toolbar/PhotoXYZ somehow became your default image editor ???

Well, fool you. You should be more expert at this stuff! I mostly know how to avoid this carp or fix it if I fail to avoid it, but I have friends whose PCs are a total disaster zone of unwanted and unasked-for junk.

(reminds me of when the pointy-haired Boss asked Dilbert to fix his browser. The PHB had so many added toolbars there was no space left to see stuff in the browser ;))
 
GlennB said:
No, those are fair points. But here is a sample of the kind of message I got. Note that the 'x' overlaps the blue area and there is no 'click here for more information' area. In fact the user is drawn to click in the little arrow-like area at the bottom. At worst I missed the 'x' by a fraction.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. Have you tried removing the shortcut from the task bar? I can say that I've run one of the privacy 'mods' and haven't seen anything like that.
 
Actually the stunt itself is pretty close to an attempt at social engineering, just performed with the audacious stupidity of a Microsoft algorithm.
 
Mongrel said:
Thanks for that. Have you tried removing the shortcut from the task bar? I can say that I've run one of the privacy 'mods' and haven't seen anything like that.
Click to expand...

Remove the Edge shortcut? My issue whinge is that this happens when I start up a Firefox session, so afaics I'd have to uninstall Edge completely.
 
Beelzebuddy said:
Most popular Linux distros are very GUI-friendly, but they've all retained the unix style terminal, with piping, regexp, etc.



Depends. There ARE differences, ranging from the minor: renaming files requires right clicking and going to "Rename..." rather than clicking on the name and pausing; to the major: lack of a good drop-in replacement for MS Paint. There are a number of excellent, more professional options for various tasks, like Gimp and Inkscape, but a simple "I want to draw a dick on GlennB's face for making me use this thing" is much more complicated than it needs to be, for whatever reason.
Click to expand...

Both are supported in Windows??
 
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