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Old 11th September 2017, 04:51 PM   #521
Crossbow
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I do not admit to trolling, nor to lying.

The insults aimed at me on this site are quite amazing. No debate, just more insults. And although the rules say it is not allowed, somehow it just keeps coming.

Your strategy is to attempt to drive me off the site, lest I influence those who have more of an open mind.

I suppose I should heed this part of Biblical wisdom:



The raging and laughing is coming at me in great volume. That speaks volumes about those raging at me.
Just use your fortune telling powers to raise money for the needy and you will be able to show everyone just how correct your religious nonsense actually is.
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Old 12th September 2017, 06:54 AM   #522
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
IMO it requires really biased and twisted logic to distort such a simple message: That there should be no differences when helping ones fellow man. Jesus was a Jew and the people not helping were obeying Jewish law.
Nobody is denying that the core message is one of helping others. What's being pointed out is that the message is being presented in an explicitly racist manner. Given the relieve social and economic positions of the Jews and the Samaritans in first century Palestine, this would be a relatively actuate updating of the parable:

Quote:
Luke 10:25-37New International Version (NIV)

The Parable of the Good Negro
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

27 He answered, "‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]"

28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Gary to Chicago, when he was attacked by gang-bangers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A megachurch Pastor happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Propsperity Gospel preacher, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Negro, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man in his own car, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out $200 and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."

Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."
The core message of helping your fellow man remains, but the underlying racism also remains. No matter how you dress it up, it's still a story of "one of those people" turning out out to be a "good one."
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Old 12th September 2017, 06:58 AM   #523
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I'm sure you're right, but just to satisfy my own curiosity, would you mind linking to the posts in which PS has admitted lying and being a troll?
Thanks.
Here is an example of the sort of thing I'm talking about:

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
abaddon. You deliberately misread and misquote me. Just returning the favor.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to correct username
I don't recall an explicit, "I am a troll!" moment in PartSkeptic's posts, but she / he has explicitly admitted to deliberately misreading and misquoting people they think may be doing the same to them. This has been born out in my interactions with PartSkeptic.
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Old 12th September 2017, 07:24 AM   #524
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Here is an example of the sort of thing I'm talking about:



I don't recall an explicit, "I am a troll!" moment in PartSkeptic's posts, but she / he has explicitly admitted to deliberately misreading and misquoting people they think may be doing the same to them. This has been born out in my interactions with PartSkeptic.
Yep. He spent a series of posts intentionally borking my user name in the hope of provoking me. I declined to bite on that bait. Eventually mods intervened as one can see.
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Old 12th September 2017, 07:55 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
How can a deity refuse to provide proof when he sends bears to maul children for making fun of a prophet being bald?

He does? You say. Prove it!

Dude.

Really?

Dude.

Quote:
2 Kings 2:23-25New International Version (NIV)

Elisha Is Jeered
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.
Now, there are apologetic arguments that try to claim the text could be referring to young men as opposed to actual children, but you still have a deity carrying out multiple violent, terrifying, drawn-out executions over an insult over a prophet's hair. It's a scene right out of a horror movie, and it's over calling someone "baldy."

And yet your deity has done NOTHING to us for disregarding your words. Hmmm. Interesting.
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Old 12th September 2017, 08:10 AM   #526
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Dude.

Really?

Dude.



Now, there are apologetic arguments that try to claim the text could be referring to young men as opposed to actual children, but you still have a deity carrying out multiple violent, terrifying, drawn-out executions over an insult over a prophet's hair. It's a scene right out of a horror movie, and it's over calling someone "baldy."

And yet your deity has done NOTHING to us for disregarding your words. Hmmm. Interesting.
That would be one of the parts of the bible that PS does not cherry-pick. It's a-la-carte all the way. Even then "nicest" parts of the bible predate the bible.
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Old 12th September 2017, 08:46 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
That would be one of the parts of the bible that PS does not cherry-pick. It's a-la-carte all the way. Even then "nicest" parts of the bible predate the bible.
I hope this isn't going to devolve into another "Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot" discussion as we try to find out which parts of the Bible she / he DOES consider valid. At that point we might as well tell the claimant to shuffle off until they put together their OWN edited Bible.
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Old 12th September 2017, 09:45 AM   #528
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This amusing video:

Christian “Prophetess” Will Stop Hurricane Irma By Hitting It With a Scepter

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


lead me to a thread in the /r/Christinaity subreddit where this comment struck me as relevant here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianit...ma_by/dmujj2f/

Quote:
True Prophets of the Lord have the following qualities:
1. What they predict comes true (Deuteronomy 18:21-22).
2. They receive visions and dreams (Numbers 12:6).
3. They seek only to glorify God, not themselves (2 Peter 1:21).
4. Their prophecies edify, uplift, comfort, and exhort the Church (1 Corinthians 14:3-4).
5. They are in control of their spirits and can take turns in the service to share (1 Corinthians 14:30-32).
6. Their prophecies align with God's word, not contradict it (Isaiah 8:19-20).
7. Their lives will display good fruit (Matthew 17:15-20). They should be displaying the fruits of the spirit. Not that they're perfect, but they endeavour to improve.
8. They believe and preach that Jesus is the son of God, who came to earth as a human, to die and rise again to redeem humanity (1 John 4:3-4).
1 John 4 also tells us to test everyone who claims to speak by the spirit, as there are many false prophets.
Edit after watching the video: I'm not saying this lady doesn't have this fruit, I don't know her personally. The internet has given her a platform which may be good or bad.
Her prayer sounds a lot like the prayers many in my pentecostal denomination would pray, but it's important to acknowledge that it is ultimately up to God whether he chooses to turn that cyclone back or not.

Last edited by halleyscomet; 12th September 2017 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 12th September 2017, 10:00 AM   #529
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I hope this isn't going to devolve into another "Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot" discussion as we try to find out which parts of the Bible she / he DOES consider valid. At that point we might as well tell the claimant to shuffle off until they put together their OWN edited Bible.
In fairness, this is Bethke's thread, PS has simply hijacked it. Bethke was a literalist. Everything in the babble was true. Even though he failed dismally.

PS is different. Only those parts of the babble that he likes are true.
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Old 12th September 2017, 10:15 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
In fairness, this is Bethke's thread, PS has simply hijacked it. Bethke was a literalist. Everything in the babble was true. Even though he failed dismally.

PS is different. Only those parts of the babble that he likes are true.
I want to know what Rev. Fred Rogers would have had to say about the passage where bears maul 42 people over an insult. If anyone could offer a satisfactory explanation it would be him.
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Old 12th September 2017, 11:52 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I'm sure you're right, but just to satisfy my own curiosity, would you mind linking to the posts in which PS has admitted lying and being a troll?
Thanks.
Dunno if that's possible at this point, but if halleyscomet can do it, kuddos. I do remember those posts, though, and will attest to hc's memory.

Eta: Late again. Sigh.

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Old 12th September 2017, 12:47 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
Dunno if that's possible at this point, but if halleyscomet can do it, kuddos. I do remember those posts, though, and will attest to hc's memory.

Eta: Late again. Sigh.

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I think the core takeaway is ParkSkeptic admitted to being willing to lie if she / he thought the other person was lying. This is a complete concession of any claim to a moral high ground.

I don't recall a single instance in either the Old or New Testaments where a prophet or apostle endorsed lying as part of their evangelism efforts. If anything, that sort of explicit half-truth behavior is considered the domain of the adversary, not the divine.
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Old 12th September 2017, 12:55 PM   #533
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
In fairness, this is Bethke's thread, PS has simply hijacked it. Bethke was a literalist. Everything in the babble was true. Even though he failed dismally.
Bethke seems to be somewhat aware of what is written in his bible(s) although he, as you stated, fails dismally understanding it.

On the other hand, PS...........

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
PS is different. Only those parts of the babble that he likes are true.
.........has admitted to not even being familiar with his bible at all, and only knows about bits and pieces shown to him by others. Of those bits and pieces, only the ones he likes are true, anything he does not like is "outdated" and not true.

Oh such infinite wisdom of the self proclaimed "prophets"!
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Old 12th September 2017, 01:27 PM   #534
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
.........has admitted to not even being familiar with his bible at all, and only knows about bits and pieces shown to him by others. Of those bits and pieces, only the ones he likes are true, anything he does not like is "outdated" and not true.

Oh such infinite wisdom of the self proclaimed "prophets"!
It's awfully convenient for them. It allows them to gleefully ignore anything that could contradict their head cannon about the religious Mary Sue Fanfic they've written about themselves.

Head Cannon: An idea, belief, or aspect of a story that is not mentioned in the media itself, but is accepted by either the media consumer themselves or the fandom in general. If it is confirmed by the creator of the story, it becomes canon.

Mary Sue: The name "Mary Sue" comes from the 1974 Star Trek fanfic A Trekkie's Tale. Originally written as a parody of the standard Self-Insert Fic of the time

Fanfic: Fan Fiction is a form of Alternate or Expanded Universe created by the fans of a work, rather than the work's original creator. Fan Fiction, or "Fan Fics" as they are often called, are written for any number of reasons
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Old 12th September 2017, 10:54 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Dude.

Really?

Dude.



Now, there are apologetic arguments that try to claim the text could be referring to young men as opposed to actual children, but you still have a deity carrying out multiple violent, terrifying, drawn-out executions over an insult over a prophet's hair. It's a scene right out of a horror movie, and it's over calling someone "baldy."

And yet your deity has done NOTHING to us for disregarding your words. Hmmm. Interesting.

My request to "prove it" was for proof that God ordered it. If he can prove God ordered the mauling then God exists and we will be talking about what kind of god God is.

I read the text. The children were mauled (torn). It does not imply killed.

If true, it means one should be careful of who one jeers at.

I jeered at an old woman in dressed in black on a dare. I was six years old. The local kids thought she was a witch. She went to my mother and insisted I get punished - while she watched. A serious beating.

In my own experience bad things have happened to people who have really wronged me. I gave up thinking that such things should happen because it has a negative impact on me. Now I just leave it up to God (whether he exists or not).

Last week I tried to get the last payment out of a fraudster who cons people. I was told he was in hospital with cancer. I did not say to his bookkeeper I was sorry because that would be lying - and I avoid lying (except in exceptional circumstances like when someone is holding a gun to my head).
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Old 12th September 2017, 11:01 PM   #536
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
........I read the text. The children were mauled (torn). It does not imply killed.......
Missing the point entirely, to no-one's surprise. Please comment on whether children should have been punished at all for these events.
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Old 13th September 2017, 03:15 AM   #537
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Step by step, inch by inch... to the inevitable confrontation.

Quote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...hats-next.html

“We think it’s just another very small step -- not a big deal,” Trump said Tuesday, referring to his and Secretary of State Rex Tillerson's view of the sanctions.

"I don't know if it has any impact, but certainly it was nice to get a 15-to-nothing vote. But those sanctions are nothing compared to what ultimately will have to happen," he said.
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Old 13th September 2017, 03:19 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Missing the point entirely, to no-one's surprise. Please comment on whether children should have been punished at all for these events.

And it is no surprise to me that you do not understand my reply. Or are you asking for a different phrasing so that you can accuse me of some heinous immoral position.

Am I supposed to make a number of little posts to every point I wish to make in response to a raft of posts? Show me the rule-book on that. Read the previous posts - or do you have an attention span problem?
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Old 13th September 2017, 04:44 AM   #539
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
My request to "prove it" was for proof that God ordered it. If he can prove God ordered the mauling then God exists and we will be talking about what kind of god God is.

I read the text. The children were mauled (torn). It does not imply killed.
Boys jeer at bald man.

Bald man curses boys for jeering at him.

Bears appear from woods and maul boys.

The implication of the story is that Yahweh the Bloody sent the bears to punish the boys for showing disrespect to his prophet (and therefore to him as well). The existence of this deity is irrelevant to the implications of the story - the deity in question will impose a sentence far in excess of what is just for showing disrespect, and that anyone who shows any disrespect to the deity or to his prophets/priests will be severely punished.

This is consistent with the behaviour attributed to Yahweh throughout the OT, and the NT.

Humans not blindly following instructions - they and all their descendants will now be subject to death, they must work very hard for subsistence and women MUST suffer during childbirth.

Humans not doing what he wants - kill everything on the planet except one family and their pets.

Ruler of the oppressive regime that was enslaving his people prepares to let them go - change the ruler's mind so that the deity can inflict greater punishments on the oppressive regime.

Members of your "chosen people" want to marry worshippers of another deity? - Have your worshippers kill all the males and women who have had children of that other deity and enslave all the young girls for your sexual gratification.

Fig tree not in season - curse it

People not following your rules during a brief existence - punish them for eternity.

Then there's the revenge porn that is Revelations.

The stories that people tell about this deity allow us to discern his character in the same way that we can tell that Joffrey Baratheon is a douche from reading Game of Thrones.
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Old 13th September 2017, 06:05 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Step by step, inch by inch... to the inevitable confrontation.
Not good enough. I believe you gave a date of sometime before October(?); there's not a lot of time left.

Meanwhile, in another thread, Relativity is supposed to collapse before the end of the year.

And, outside the forum, the earth will be destroyed in a collision with the planet Nibiru on September 23rd (two weeks from now), but apparently will leave enough for the coals to be raked over by God himself in 2021(World Bible Society).

Your nuclear exchange is starting to look like small potatoes. You're going to have to get bigger tarot cards if you want to compete.


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Old 13th September 2017, 06:26 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
My request to "prove it" was for proof that God ordered it. If he can prove God ordered the mauling then God exists and we will be talking about what kind of god God is.

I read the text. The children were mauled (torn). It does not imply killed.

If true, it means one should be careful of who one jeers at.
I was about to express incredulity at the absurdity of your response, until I remembered you were a confessed troll and liar, so of COURSE your response was going to be what you presented, something marginally more articulate than the average discourse on 4chan's /b/.

Yes, the Biblical deity is responsible. His prophet cursed the children and he sent bears as a response. That's about as morally culpable as you can get without getting down there to shiv the kids personally.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I read the text. The children were mauled (torn). It does not imply killed.
Right, because surviving a bear mauling is a given, especially on a road between cities where doctors were rare and antibiotics were still a few THOUSAND years in the future.

There are a number of people in this thread who know Hebrew well enough to answer the question of if the mauling described in the passage is a fatal or survivable one, but in the interim I'll bring in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. The word we're looking at is Strong's Hebrew #1234. בָּקַע


Quote:
baqa: to cleave, break open or through
Original Word: בָּקַע
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: baqa
Phonetic Spelling: (baw-kah')
Short Definition: split
Ouch. Being "split" by a bear doesn't sound too good.

Quote:
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
to cleave, break open or through
NASB Translation
breached (3), break (4), break forth (1), break through (1), breaks forth (1), breaks open (1), broke open (1), broke through (2), broken (3), burst (2), burst open (1), cleaved (1), dashed to pieces (1), divide (1), divided (4), forth (1), hatch (2), hews (1), invaded (1), make for ourselves a breach (1), rip (1), ripped (1), ripped open (2), shook (1), split (7), split open (1), splits (1), tear (1), tore (2), torn (2).
Ripped open??? Burst?? Yeah, this is sounding less and less survivable.

Follow the link and take a look at the other places בָּקַע is used. Most the references are to something being ripped apart. For example in Isaiah 34:15 it's used to refer to an egg hatching. In Amos 1:13 it's used to refer to pregnant women being ripped open. In other passages rocks are cut open so water can pour fourth, seas are divided. This is a violent, permanent act. The passage describes 42 people being disemboweled, not getting a flesh wound from a claw swipe.

My favorite is Genesis 7:11:

Quote:
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month--on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.
That's our friend בָּקַע. I'm particularly fond of that one because of an article I read in the Creation Research Quarterly back in the 1990's that used that very word as the cornerstone of an argument that Noah's Flood was even MORE violent than is typically depicted in Christian commentary. Creationists literally used the word you're dismissing as survivable to argue a global Genocide was even WORSE than we typically think.

And you think it describes a survivable attack.

How cute.

The sad part is you COULD have mounted a defense of the passage. There's a lot of ways to argue about the age of the young men who mocked the prophet. Knowing a bit of the historical, theological and political context of the passage could even allow you to see some deeper contexts in that passage that could arguably justify sending a couple bears to maul the mockers. (hint, mocking his lack of hair isn't the important part.)

But no. You tossed aside all the potential arguments to defend the passage and picked the single stupidest imaginable tactic of, "Well you can survive being split by a bear, right?"
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Old 13th September 2017, 06:40 AM   #542
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Here is an example of how I've often seen baqa discussed in the context of Biblical Literalism:

http://evolutionfacts.com/Appendix/a19b.htm

Quote:
2 - BROKEN UP

When the Flood began, something was "broken up". "In the six hundredth year of Naoh's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep [tehom] broken up [baqa] and the windows of heaven were opened."

What had happened?

Inside the earth were multiplied thousands of interconnected channels and springs of waters. These provided a vast watering system for the entire earth. As the first rains of the Flood began falling, this vast system was "broken up," or baqa. These channels and underground pools were torn open and ripped apart violently! baqa means a "violent cleavage." We have not here a gurgling forth of an artesian spring, but rather the most violent bursting forth of hundreds of thousands of subterranean water sources! One example of this would be Eccl 10:9, in which a man cleaves a block of wood with an axe: a powerful, quick thrust followed by a bursting apart. The presence of baqa also helps to graphically explain two other historical events: As the Israelites approached the Red Sea, the waters burst aside to make room for their passage ("divides" Ex 14:16). As Korah and his associates stood defiantly, the ground beneath their feet exploded sideways, and they and their possessions fell into the chasm which had opened.

Proverbs 3:19 speaks of Creation, 3:20 of the Flood "when the depths are broken up."

Isaiah 35:6 and Psalm 78:15 mention the mighty miracle which occurred when Moses hit the face of a rock monolith with a stick and a powerful cleavage ripped apart, out of which pure water poured.

The Hebrew word baqa is used to describe the breaking up of the immense fountains of the great deep (tehom). Pictured here is a gigantic cleavage of the crust of the earth, with oceans of water exploding outward from those fissures in continual commotion.

3 - FOUNTAINS OF THE GREAT DEEP

Psalm 78:15, mentioned above, includes both the word baqa and tehom, just as we find in Genesis: "In the six hundredth year of Naoh's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep [tehom] broken up [baqa] and the windows of heaven were opened" (Gen 7:11). One would expect to find, in Hebrew, "fountains of waters" (mayim), but instead we are presented with "fountains of the great deep" (tehom). "Tehom" specifically means "water in violent commotion, making a great noise."

An understanding of these Hebrew words is enabling us to obtain a better understanding of what the Flood was like!
Let's revisit one of those lines in relation to the bear attacks, shall we?

"Pictured here is a gigantic cleavage of the gut of the mocker, with pints of blood and viscera exploding outward from those fissures in continual commotion."

But yeah, PartSkeptic thinks he could survive that, with the primary medical care available at the time being, "Wrap it up and pray."

Riiiiiight.
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Old 13th September 2017, 07:12 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Step by step, inch by inch... to the inevitable confrontation.
You keep bringing this up as if it will prove something if hostilities resume. It won't. If your big claim to fame as a "prophet" is predicting a resumption of hostilities between two countries lead by bull-headed narcissists with thin skins and small hands, we might as well ask the forum moderators to change your username to "Captain Obvious" and be done with it.

I know you're trolling, but please, try to come up with something a BIT more plausible as a "hit" for prophesy. You might as well be predicting Trump will post something inflammatory to Twitter in the next week and then gloat with glee when he does.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
And it is no surprise to me that you do not understand my reply. Or are you asking for a different phrasing so that you can accuse me of some heinous immoral position.

Am I supposed to make a number of little posts to every point I wish to make in response to a raft of posts? Show me the rule-book on that. Read the previous posts - or do you have an attention span problem?
No, the fact you missed the point of the post is pretty damn clear. Of course I believe you "missed" it deliberately as part of a trolling persona, but there are others here who hold out hope that you might actually be honest in at least some of your interactions.
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Old 13th September 2017, 07:37 AM   #544
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@HalleysComet:

For the record: You accuse me of being a liar and a troll? Breaking the rules again.

You must be a lawyer (or think you are one). And you know what sort of reputation for twisting the facts they have.

Two bears maul 42 kids. Wow. The kids must have had a spell put on them that stopped them from running away.

Assuming you are right and 42 kids died, their souls would have been judged, told that they should not do it again, and then reincarnated having learned a serious lesson. One wonders what judgment you would receive.

Or without the curse, they could have grown up and suffered from leprosy.

ETA: I see your nasty personal abusive posts have been moved. Correctly so.
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Old 13th September 2017, 07:50 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
@HalleysComet:

For the record: You accuse me of being a liar and a troll? Breaking the rules again.

You must be a lawyer (or think you are one). And you know what sort of reputation for twisting the facts they have.

Two bears maul 42 kids. Wow. The kids must have had a spell put on them that stopped them from running away.

Assuming you are right and 42 kids died, their souls would have been judged, told that they should not do it again, and then reincarnated having learned a serious lesson. One wonders what judgment you would receive.

Or without the curse, they could have grown up and suffered from leprosy.

ETA: I see your nasty personal abusive posts have been moved. Correctly so.
Your contention now is that the holey babble is unreliable at best. Agreed.
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Old 13th September 2017, 07:55 AM   #546
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Two bears maul 42 kids. Wow. The kids must have had a spell put on them that stopped them from running away.
Do you know anything about anything?

Quote:
You can't outrun a bear so don't even try.*Despite rumours to the contrary, black and grizzly bears can outrun a human on*ANY*terrain, uphill or down. People will tell you that you should run downhill when chased by a grizzly. This is simply a myth - don't try it!
http://www.mountainnature.com/wildli...encounters.htm

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Old 13th September 2017, 08:13 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
@HalleysComet:

For the record: You accuse me of being a liar and a troll? Breaking the rules again.

You must be a lawyer (or think you are one). And you know what sort of reputation for twisting the facts they have.

Two bears maul 42 kids. Wow. The kids must have had a spell put on them that stopped them from running away.

Assuming you are right and 42 kids died, their souls would have been judged, told that they should not do it again, and then reincarnated having learned a serious lesson. One wonders what judgment you would receive.

Or without the curse, they could have grown up and suffered from leprosy.

ETA: I see your nasty personal abusive posts have been moved. Correctly so.
Seriously?

*sigh*

OK, fine. I tried to nudge you, but you keep sticking to the dumbest possible justification for the passage. The Conservative Evangelical pastor I could have grown up to be is sitting in the back of my mind shaking his head in disbelief at the absurdity of your replies, muttering, "Is this was the Body of Christ has decayed into?" In an act of pity I'll give the cliff-notes version of a more competent apologetic for the passage.
  • The Hebrew leaves some room for ambiguity about the ages of the people being gutted by the bears. It's possible, even likely the original author used the terms he did to refer to a bunch of young men he wanted to describe as foolish.
  • Yes, they were gutted. The Hebrew is pretty clear about that. Your incredulity is meaningless. This is the Bible were talking about.
  • We're never told how MANY people were jeering Elisha in the first place. Two rampaging bears killing 42 people out of 300 while people are running around a crazed panic? Perfectly plausible, even without divine intervention.
  • Elisha was going to Bethel. He was moving from a portion of the Kingdom that was still largely faithful to the Covenant with Abraham to one that was largely pagan, and therefor particularity hostile to his message. There's a boatload of economic and political issues added on top of that but they all boil down to, "Elisha wasn't welcome where he was going."
  • Translations vary, so I'd like to hear from people with a better understanding of the underlying Hebrew, but the jeer is sometimes translated as "get up" or "go up," in an apparent reference to Elijah's ascension. If this is an intentional reference on the part of the author, then the jeers are not merely asking Elisha to leave, they're demanding he die.

Take that all together, and instead of God sending bears to murder 42 children over calling a man bald, we have God sending two bears to disperse a large group of thugs who were threatening to murder a prophet.

Really, I thought I was throwing you a softball. I didn't expect I'd have to set up a Batting T and bunt the ball for you so you could get on base.

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Old 13th September 2017, 08:52 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
@HalleysComet:

For the record: You accuse me of being a liar and a troll? Breaking the rules again.
How is stating a fact against the rules?
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Old 13th September 2017, 09:50 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by StackOverflow View Post
How is stating a fact against the rules?
It depends on the context.

The two posts of mine that were moved had no content other than the comment about trolling. In those posts I dismissed PartSkeptic's augments on the basis of my belief that they were a troll. These comments were removed from the main thread. They constituted a discussion about the arguer and not the argument. I should not have made such posts and the moderators were right to remove them.

On the other hand, my comment where I quoted the ParkSkeptic post where I believe they were confessing to deliberate misrepresentation remains. My post where I compare their admission of misrepresentation to the behavior of prophets in the Bible also remains. One answered an explicit question that was asked of me regarding the reliability of the answers a person was giving. The other directly addresses PartSkeptic's claims of being a prophet. While the arguer's integrity is a core concern in both posts, they're supported accusations made in relation to specific points.

Compare these theoretical comments about a theoretical poster named "Baqa":

1. "I think Baqa is wrong because he's a poopiehead."

2. "I think Baqa is wrong because he's making claims about advanced physics yet he has demonstrated a third grade math education at best. He also just confused vectors with velocipedes."

3. "I think Baqa is not a reliable source because he brags about scooping up his own excrement and wearing it in paper hats. He also brags about 'never using 'sham' poo in my hair!'"

The first comment is simply an insult, like pointing a finger and yelling "troll!" It's analogous to the posts of mine that were recently removed from this thread. The third comment also calls Baqa a poopiehead, but explains what that means and why I think it's relevant to the conversation.

This very post is very likely to be removed, as it can easily be considered off-topic or even discussion of moderation decisions outside of the approved forums.

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Old 13th September 2017, 10:42 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
And it is no surprise to me that you do not understand my reply. Or are you asking for a different phrasing so that you can accuse me of some heinous immoral position.

Am I supposed to make a number of little posts to every point I wish to make in response to a raft of posts? Show me the rule-book on that. Read the previous posts - or do you have an attention span problem?
Wow, so much bile. Did someone kick your puppy? It remains no surprise to me that you still haven't commented on the morals of sending bears to attack children for comments they may have made. If that's your idea of moral behaviour by anyone then your perspective on the issue is way off whack.
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Old 13th September 2017, 11:04 AM   #551
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Also dodges the biblical endorsement of slavery. That's kind of hard to ignore.
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Old 13th September 2017, 11:09 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Wow, so much bile. Did someone kick your puppy?
It's probably my fault. I can be kinda harsh and brutal. Many years in IT have whittled away my need for tact.

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Also dodges the biblical endorsement of slavery. That's kind of hard to ignore.
To be fair, it hasn't really been discussed that much since they joined the thread.
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Old 13th September 2017, 11:45 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
It's probably my fault. I can be kinda harsh and brutal. Many years in IT have whittled away my need for tact.



To be fair, it hasn't really been discussed that much since they joined the thread.
That would be a dodge.
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:23 PM   #554
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
That would be a dodge.
Can we get (back) to discussing signs of the end times and all? I mean, if the tarot is to be believed, we don't have much time left and I don't want to waste a moment.

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Old 13th September 2017, 02:14 PM   #555
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Seriously?

*sigh*

In an act of pity I'll give the cliff-notes version of a more competent apologetic for the passage.


The Hebrew leaves some room for ambiguity about the ages of the people being gutted by the bears. It's possible, even likely the original author used the terms he did to refer to a bunch of young men he wanted to describe as foolish.
Yes, the Hebrew is unclear about the ages.

In verse 23 it refers to them as נער (na'ar) which means "young man/youth" which means of marriage and/or military age. But that noun is followed by the adjective קטן (katan) which means "small" but is also used to mean "young". So the meaning is very young adolescents. (Both words are in the plural form).

But then, to complicate matters, in verse 24 they are referred to as ילדים (yeladeem) which means "children/boys". The plain, literal description (of both verses together) is of older children/young teens.

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Yes, they were gutted. The Hebrew is pretty clear about that. Your incredulity is meaningless. This is the Bible were talking about.
In case PS still wants to (incredibly) go with the "just a flesh wound" response, he should check out Hosea 13:8. That is the only time in Tanakh (as far as I know) where the word בקע (baka) is used to describe what wild animals do when attacking humans.

I think that leaves no room for doubt.

Hosea 13:8
http://biblehub.com/hosea/13-8.htm

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
We're never told how MANY people were jeering Elisha in the first place. Two rampaging bears killing 42 people out of 300 while people are running around a crazed panic? Perfectly plausible, even without divine intervention.
Exactly. With a large crowd (unknown number) of 'adolescents', only some would have managed to escape in a panic. 42 of them obviously did not make it.

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Elisha was going to Bethel. He was moving from a portion of the Kingdom that was still largely faithful to the Covenant with Abraham to one that was largely pagan, and therefor particularity hostile to his message. There's a boatload of economic and political issues added on top of that but they all boil down to, "Elisha wasn't welcome where he was going."
The book of Kings was likely redacted in the 6th century BCE (during/after Babylonia) when the priests/scribes were pushing for monotheism, worship of YHVH alone. So it was obviously finalised as "monotheist = good, polytheists =bad".

In reality, the timeline of the Elisha stories (9th cent. BCE) was when virtually everyone were polytheists, so the finalised stories definitely had a political/religious agenda, and the story of the adolescents included economic issues.

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Translations vary, so I'd like to hear from people with a better understanding of the underlying Hebrew, but the jeer is sometimes translated as "get up" or "go up," in an apparent reference to Elijah's ascension. If this is an intentional reference on the part of the author, then the jeers are not merely asking Elisha to leave, they're demanding he die.
The actual word used is "go up" (infinitive לעלות) and is a very commonly used word. The same word is used three times in verse 23. The first is when Elisha "went up" (past tense) to Bet-El, the second is as he is "going up" (present tense) on the road, and the third is the jeers from the boys, "go up!" (imperative form). According to commentators the jeers from the boys is, as you said, taken as a reference to Elijah.

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post

Take that all together, and instead of God sending bears to murder 42 children over calling a man bald, we have God sending two bears to disperse a large group of thugs who were threatening to murder a prophet.

Really, I thought I was throwing you a softball. I didn't expect I'd have to set up a Batting T and bunt the ball for you so you could get on base.

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Old 13th September 2017, 02:33 PM   #556
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
Can we get (back) to discussing signs of the end times and all? I mean, if the tarot is to be believed, we don't have much time left and I don't want to waste a moment.
I get so confused between the tarot and the bible!
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Old 13th September 2017, 03:19 PM   #557
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
It depends on the context.

The two posts of mine that were moved had no content other than the comment about trolling. In those posts I dismissed PartSkeptic's augments on the basis of my belief that they were a troll. These comments were removed from the main thread. They constituted a discussion about the arguer and not the argument. I should not have made such posts and the moderators were right to remove them.

On the other hand, my comment where I quoted the ParkSkeptic post where I believe they were confessing to deliberate misrepresentation remains. My post where I compare their admission of misrepresentation to the behavior of prophets in the Bible also remains. One answered an explicit question that was asked of me regarding the reliability of the answers a person was giving. The other directly addresses PartSkeptic's claims of being a prophet. While the arguer's integrity is a core concern in both posts, they're supported accusations made in relation to specific points.

Compare these theoretical comments about a theoretical poster named "Baqa":

1. "I think Baqa is wrong because he's a poopiehead."

2. "I think Baqa is wrong because he's making claims about advanced physics yet he has demonstrated a third grade math education at best. He also just confused vectors with velocipedes."

3. "I think Baqa is not a reliable source because he brags about scooping up his own excrement and wearing it in paper hats. He also brags about 'never using 'sham' poo in my hair!'"

The first comment is simply an insult, like pointing a finger and yelling "troll!" It's analogous to the posts of mine that were recently removed from this thread. The third comment also calls Baqa a poopiehead, but explains what that means and why I think it's relevant to the conversation.

This very post is very likely to be removed, as it can easily be considered off-topic or even discussion of moderation decisions outside of the approved forums.
I am honestly baffled how this forum is giving trolls and narcissists a safe space and even a stage to repeatedly talk down to people instead of banning them after the very first iteration of "claims of woo -> getting called out -> reply in the most arrogant and hostile way possible"

Guess not everyones brain makes a safe transition into old age.

Happy removing
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Old 13th September 2017, 03:34 PM   #558
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
@HalleysComet:

For the record: You accuse me of being a liar and a troll? Breaking the rules again.

You must be a lawyer (or think you are one). And you know what sort of reputation for twisting the facts they have.

Two bears maul 42 kids. Wow. The kids must have had a spell put on them that stopped them from running away.

Assuming you are right and 42 kids died, their souls would have been judged, told that they should not do it again, and then reincarnated having learned a serious lesson. One wonders what judgment you would receive.

Or without the curse, they could have grown up and suffered from leprosy.

ETA: I see your nasty personal abusive posts have been moved. Correctly so.
So go use your fortune telling powers to make a good bit of money for charity.

And while I do not have any fortune telling powers, I clearly foresee that you do not have any such powers and therefore you will not be able to raise money for charity.
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Old 13th September 2017, 03:37 PM   #559
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
So go use your fortune telling powers to make a good bit of money for charity.

And while I do not have any fortune telling powers, I clearly foresee that you do not have any such powers and therefore you will not be able to raise money for charity.
It would be unethical for him to raise money for purposes of doing good. We all know that people grow emotionally only through coping with adversity, and he wouldn't want to endanger anybody's maturation.

Or something.

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Old 14th September 2017, 06:01 AM   #560
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Originally Posted by StackOverflow View Post
I am honestly baffled how this forum is giving trolls and narcissists a safe space and even a stage to repeatedly talk down to people instead of banning them after the very first iteration of "claims of woo -> getting called out -> reply in the most arrogant and hostile way possible"

Guess not everyones brain makes a safe transition into old age.

Happy removing
It's a difficult balance. At what point do you risk accusations of censorship in order to maintain forum decorum? This thread and a few others like it are going to go a long way towards addressing any accusations of censorship that get thrown at the site.

I originally came here because there was an absolutely HILARIOUS overtly racist religious zealot who had been kicked out of the "Skeptic's Guide to the Universe Forums." They tend to shut down circular discussions that go on for too long. She cropped up here and I came over to poke. I was not disappointed. I ended up with material for a novella I still have percolating in the background.

Sadly she got herself properly banned here for sock puppetry and I haven't seen her crop up anywhere else under a username I recognized.

The SGU forums and this forum are moderated differently in part because the forums ultimately have different goals. The SGU Forum is still a forum to support a podcast. This forum however is more of a clearinghouse of skepticism. Those different missions necessitate different moderation styles.
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