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Old 13th September 2017, 10:04 AM   #521
Lorentz
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
OK let's consider unequal application of justice based on "race". (There are many examples.) Granted, the concept of race isn't scientific. Still, how does this discussion occur in a way that you don't object to?
Well, I sort of had my rant now; I feel I'm mostly done.

However, I'd like a discussion that doesn't focus on skin pigmentation or whose ancestors five generations removed did what to whom. I'd join a discussion about discrimination, inequality of opportunity, cultural conflicts and income gaps, as they apply in this century, not the last one. And yes, white supremacists could be part of the discussion, but I would still regard them as a long discredited fringe phenomenon.

Discussions that claim to be trying to improve a situation by focusing on pigmentation and ancestry and then trying to determine the most diplomatic - or fashionable - words and postures to use when speaking to people, depending on how dark their skin appears, are to me, beyond ridiculous. It's a way of perpetuating the idea that 'race' is important, that it should define who we are as persons.

Anyway, thanks for asking. I don't think I'll rejoin this thread.
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Old 13th September 2017, 10:24 AM   #522
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Originally Posted by Lorentz View Post
I'd join a discussion about discrimination, inequality of opportunity, cultural conflicts and income gaps, as they apply in this century, not the last one.
...because history is irrelevant to the present?

Originally Posted by Lorentz View Post
However, I'd like a discussion that doesn't focus on skin pigmentation or whose ancestors five generations removed did what to whom.
Current American society, for better or worse, bases social class/caste differentiation partially on skin pigmentation. Pretending that it doesn't is a denial of reality.

Yes, the goal should be that skin pigmentation makes no difference, but you cannot improve things without acknowledging how things are and what effect those differentiations have had on society.
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Old 13th September 2017, 10:30 AM   #523
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
...because history is irrelevant to the present?


Current American society, for better or worse, bases social class/caste differentiation partially on skin pigmentation. Pretending that it doesn't is a denial of reality.

Yes, the goal should be that skin pigmentation makes no difference, but you cannot improve things without acknowledging how things are and what effect those differentiations have had on society.
Society bases social class on many factors , what makes skin pigmentation the most important?
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Old 13th September 2017, 10:43 AM   #524
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Society bases social class on many factors , what makes skin pigmentation the most important?
Originally? No idea. It shouldn't be, but you can't reasonably deny that it still is.
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Old 13th September 2017, 10:44 AM   #525
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Meh, thought we were done. I still have more to add, apparently.

Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
...because history is irrelevant to the present?
Current American society, for better or worse, bases social class/caste differentiation partially on skin pigmentation. Pretending that it doesn't is a denial of reality.
Possibly "better"? I'm firmly on the side of worse there.

Quote:
Yes, the goal should be that skin pigmentation makes no difference, but you cannot improve things without acknowledging how things are and what effect those differentiations have had on society.
I'm all for acknowledging causes. There's a lot of pigment-based discrimination in the U.S. and in many other countries to some probably lesser degree. Have I fulfilled the acknowledgement requirement?

I'm against obsessing on one characteristic that causes differentiation - pigmentation in your case - and then projecting feelings and experiences on them many or most don't even have, or don't have in the form you imagine, to the detriment of looking at the actual differentiations and what to do about them. I do get the impression that's where we fundamentally disagree.
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Old 13th September 2017, 12:17 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by Lorentz View Post
Possibly "better"? I'm firmly on the side of worse there.
Relax. It's just an idiom.


Originally Posted by Lorentz View Post
I'm all for acknowledging causes. There's a lot of pigment-based discrimination in the U.S. and in many other countries to some probably lesser degree. Have I fulfilled the acknowledgement requirement?

I'm against obsessing on one characteristic that causes differentiation - pigmentation in your case - and then projecting feelings and experiences on them many or most don't even have, or don't have in the form you imagine, to the detriment of looking at the actual differentiations and what to do about them. I do get the impression that's where we fundamentally disagree.
I'm not obsessing on it. I'm simply not ignoring or refusing to talk about it.

What do you think are the "actual differentiations" in American society?
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Old 13th September 2017, 12:46 PM   #527
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
What do you think are the "actual differentiations" in American society?
Interesting question. I haven't lived there, only visited, so wouldn't regard myself as an expert, but here's my best guess:
1) Wealth (rich, wealthy, middle class, blue collar, poor)
2) Education (Ivy league, average college, community college, high school, dropout)
3) Ethnicity (caucasians, asians, first generation immigrants - skin colour not so relevant with these, as I understand -, Eastern Europeans, Latinos, African Americans. Maybe the last two groups are comparable, unsure)
4) Attire and haircuts (suits, quality leisure wear, torn jeans) and accent
5) Local origins (West Coast, East Coast, the rest), although which is treated better entirely depends
5) Religion (Protestant, Catholic, other, muslim, atheist).
6) Gender (unsure here - seems to have pros and cons depending on context, but probably more detrimental to women on average)

All of the above usually judged within a few minutes after first encounter, based on cues like clothing, body posture, neighbourhood, accent, pronunciation and elocution, apparent companions.

Wealth is the biggie. Everywhere. You doubt it?
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:04 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by Lorentz View Post
Wealth is the biggie. Everywhere. You doubt it?
Like a wealthy tennis player standing outside a nice hotel in New York should probably not be treated like a thug by police just because he has a dark pigment? Yeah, I doubt it.
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:22 PM   #529
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Originally Posted by Lorentz View Post
2) Education (Ivy league, average college, community college, high school, dropout)
Like a Harvard University professor being arrested entering into his own residence? Yeah, I doubt it.




ETA: It may be a cultural misunderstanding but, in the US, the terms "race" and "ethnicity" are largely interchangeable. I'm not sure where you're going with that one.
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Last edited by Upchurch; 13th September 2017 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:36 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Like a Harvard University professor being arrested entering into his own residence? Yeah, I doubt it.




ETA: It may be a cultural misunderstanding but, in the US, the terms "race" and "ethnicity" are largely interchangeable. I'm not sure where you're going with that one.
It may well be, but Caucasian Americans, Eastern Europeans, Western Europeans, Russians have similar pigmentation, but very different ethnicities and are perceived and treated differently.

Similarly, Caribbean blacks or African immigrants are different ethnicities from African Americans. They get treated very differently in the U.S. - according to one African immigrant I know anyway.

Given this whole variety - why this obsessive focus on African Americans only? And why is how you address them and what words you may use the most important thing ever? Why is it worth spending so much time thinking about words, disregarding individual context?

You address a person as a person. Two different persons do not have the exact same experiences, whether they have similar pigments or not, even if they're from the same country or the same city. Nobody should try to speak for all of a given ethnicity or background - those who do not share that background even less so.
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:43 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Like a Harvard University professor being arrested entering into his own residence? Yeah, I doubt it.
Are you sure you're not obsessed. Dr. Keith's response was fallacious enough without you adding a second example.
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:56 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Are you sure you're not obsessed. Dr. Keith's response was fallacious enough without you adding a second example.
Why "fallacious"? They are illustrations of what is known about from statistics.

In the first case, they said that the victim looked like another person who also turned out to be innocent.

It would be very interesting to see what the four misconduct charges were against the officer, and whether the previous charges independently support each other.
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Old 14th September 2017, 04:01 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Like a Harvard University professor being arrested entering into his own residence? Yeah, I doubt it.
Non whites need to learn to be more careful about being seen in their own neighborhoods.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.8e1249ca22a3
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Old 14th September 2017, 11:02 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Why "fallacious"?
The plural of anecdote is not data.

Quote:
They are illustrations of what is known about from statistics.
But yes, I think the data confirms the anecdotes are not outliers. Wealth makes being black easier, but negative impact of being black is not eclipsed by wealth alone. But, I'm taking the sunmaster14 approach to this: why should I find evidence for this when it will either be dismissed or the goal posts will be moved. Waste of my time and theirs.
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