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Old 13th September 2017, 10:35 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Antivaxers are already killing people. There have been measles outbreaks that have killed children.
From what I've read they've doubled down too. As tho deaths from the preventable disease somehow prove the disease shouldn't be prevented.
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Old 13th September 2017, 10:42 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
From what I've read they've doubled down too. As tho deaths from the preventable disease somehow prove the disease shouldn't be prevented.
Tough, the alt-med crowd have decided that alt-med is real. There is nothing you, I, or anyone else can do to stem this tidal wave of woo.
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Old 13th September 2017, 10:50 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Tough, the alt-med crowd have decided that alt-med is real. There is nothing you, I, or anyone else can do to stem this tidal wave tsunami of woo.
FTFY

Many tidal waves are actually pretty benign.
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:17 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Tough, the alt-med crowd have decided that alt-med is real. There is nothing you, I, or anyone else can do to stem this tidal wave of woo.
Doesn't stop me from bitching bout it.
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:42 PM   #45
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My mother is definitely not a skeptic, and tends to go in for all sorts of psychics and other woo - no chance of convincing her to re-evaluate those beliefs.

I'm glad though, that she seems to trust me when it comes to alternative medicine; at least mostly. She had trouble with her cholesterol medicine, as it was damaging her liver, and while looking for alternatives to switch to, she found "red rice" - told me about it, and I looked it up. It does actually lower cholesterol... but does so because it has the same chemical constituent that my mother's cholesterol medicine used.... the one that was causing problems with her liver.

Called her, and told her not to take the red rice, telling her that it's potency is based on the very same thing that was in the medicine she took earlier, that doesn't suit well with her. Thankfully she believed me. Found one cholesterol medicine that worked, and didn't cause problems, with the help of her doctor.

She's not unintelligent. She just hasn't ever been taught proper critical thinking skills. So she's relying on her common sense. And falling for all the confirmation bias that you fall for, if you aren't paying attention, and aware of the pitfalls, which makes it a dicey situation, whenever she encounters woo. I just try to get in early enough to dissuade her; like most people, if she gets in her head the idea that something works, it's really difficult to disabuse her of the notion.
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Old 16th September 2017, 03:19 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
A telecommunications company as well. Or at least they were. No idea if they still exist.
They got taken over by Cable and Wireless - I know because my parents were with them in the early 1990s/late 1980s?
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Old 16th September 2017, 02:25 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Mercury is not natural, because...actually, I don't know why.
Because it's silver. duh! Everyone knows natural stuff is earthtones.
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Old 16th September 2017, 02:48 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Yes, heroin is chemically modified (acetylated) morphine, so morphine good, heroin bad.
Actually heroin is one of the most effective pain killers ever. The fact that hospitals can't use it for its intended purpose due to politics is criminal.
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Old 16th September 2017, 02:50 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I think it's more accurate to simply have two distinctions: medicine that works vs. medicine that doesn't.
I doubt that doctors would like a dichotomous definition like that. "I'm writing a prescription for medicine that doesn't work ...."
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Old 16th September 2017, 03:00 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Actually heroin is one of the most effective pain killers ever. The fact that hospitals can't use it for its intended purpose due to politics is criminal.
Indeed, my late husband was grinding his half-assed morphene and injecting it. We finally got him to hospice he died 6 hours later.
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Old 16th September 2017, 06:06 PM   #51
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I got annoyed that I hadn't stumbled across the specific TV spot again, so I went a-Goolglin'...

I think this is the one, called "Nerve Pain Away" Topical Spray, and The Man had the truth of it... it's homeopathic. Of course.

Nerve Pain Away TV ad Google search


The claimed main ingredient... hypericum perforatum...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypericum_perforatum


Known to the majority of us as... St John's wort.
A mild anti-inflammatory (with unclear anti-depressant effects).
---

When I first burst discs, some of the pinched nerves created a sensation in my left foot as though I were standing in fire, with a railroad spike driven up through the sole of my foot. Ouch, eh?

I'm fairly confidant applying even an actual effective anti-inflammatory to my foot, would have had zero effect on the nerve pain, originating as it did in my spine with direct transmission to my brain (ain't anatomy amazing).

Woot... Placebo Man to the rescue.

Homeopathy for the... win?

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Old 16th September 2017, 06:17 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Antivaxers are already killing people. There have been measles outbreaks that have killed children.
And adults.
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Old 16th September 2017, 07:35 PM   #53
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"Head On. Rub Directly on the Forehead". Repeat ad nauseum.
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Old 16th September 2017, 07:51 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
The laying on of hands by various specialists (please don't touch me)
You must love Therapeutic Touch. No touching is involved.
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Old 16th September 2017, 11:52 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Actually heroin is one of the most effective pain killers ever. The fact that hospitals can't use it for its intended purpose due to politics is criminal.
Incorrect.
(Diamorphine = heroin).
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Old 17th September 2017, 01:20 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Incorrect.
(Diamorphine = heroin).

Gack... never realized Vicodin was so potent.
No wonder I used it at about a third the prescribed rate.

Quick... someone get over here and break my leg, haven't had a scrip in years.
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Old 17th September 2017, 02:08 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Gack... never realized Vicodin was so potent.
No wonder I used it at about a third the prescribed rate.

Quick... someone get over here and break my leg, haven't had a scrip in years.
It's all very weird. I suspect there is a healthy dollop of personal, individual response involved. Over the course of various medical misadventures, the only trippy drug I experienced was full on general anaesthetic. Otherwise, it appears that I feel no particular mental side effects. Why? I have no idea.

My most recent was a badly smashed ankle requiring surgery, pins, plates, etc. Afterwards, I was prescribed industrial painkillers. I might as well have been snorting skittles for all they did. I followed doctors orders for a whole day, and simply stopped.

For comparison, I have 3 siblings. Of the four of us, two will get all trippy and two will get all "Meh?" when taking such medication.
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Old 17th September 2017, 03:11 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Gack... never realized Vicodin was so potent.
No wonder I used it at about a third the prescribed rate.

Quick... someone get over here and break my leg, haven't had a scrip in years.
Vicodin is generally used for moderate (not severe) pain. Keep in mind: The reference strength is based on ORALLY administered morphine. The entire point of the mixture of opioid hydrocodone with acetaminophen is to reduce the amount of hydrocodone needed. There are other factors involved as well beyond equianalgesic strength - for example the speed at which analgesia occurs after administration or the relative amount of time the drug spends in system before being metabolized (cf half-life).

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Old 17th September 2017, 07:13 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
"... and it's completely natural, so I don't have to worry about any side effects."

(I think it was something, something... nerve pain relief.)



That just annoys the crap out of me.
You shouldn't. The text is just an induced inference. The person speaking just don't feel like worrying about any side effects, in spite there are many (one can deduce from the sentence itself). They're probably glad the side effects are not listed in the package.

If Joe Public is so stupid to believe his bad understanding of that induced inference, it's his problem.

All those ads are made of carefully designed induced inferences, like that old one with an announcer saying "garcinia cambogia dissolves fat" while simultaneously a chubby silhouette is shown morphing into a slim one. If the public is so stupid as to think the voice is talking about the images, they deserve to be conned.

Explain how induced inferences work and all that crap lost its magic appeal. I gave a little "seminar" to my mother on this subject, decades ago, consisting in jumping into scene when I heard my mother complaining "how is it possible they allow them to say this" and telling why there wasn't anything wrong except on her mind. I quickly stop hearing those reactions from her. Would have her understood or just grew sick of my explanations? Today all her grandchildren have been vaccinated against induced inferences in TV adds, so I guess she learnt it a taught it in turn when taking care of the kids.

But, there's a question. Why on earth this has to be said once and again here, in a site devoted to scepticism? The topic surely should be part of the curricula in K-12 and first two years of college, and it isn't. But why HERE is so blatantly ignored to the point of thinking that "induced inference" is a rookie ESL mistake for "inductive inference" which has nothing to do with it, really.
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Old 17th September 2017, 04:40 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
You shouldn't. The text is just an induced inference. The person speaking just don't feel like worrying about any side effects, in spite there are many (one can deduce from the sentence itself). They're probably glad the side effects are not listed in the package.

If Joe Public is so stupid to believe his bad understanding of that induced inference, it's his problem.

All those ads are made of carefully designed induced inferences, like that old one with an announcer saying "garcinia cambogia dissolves fat" while simultaneously a chubby silhouette is shown morphing into a slim one. If the public is so stupid as to think the voice is talking about the images, they deserve to be conned.

Explain how induced inferences work and all that crap lost its magic appeal. I gave a little "seminar" to my mother on this subject, decades ago, consisting in jumping into scene when I heard my mother complaining "how is it possible they allow them to say this" and telling why there wasn't anything wrong except on her mind. I quickly stop hearing those reactions from her. Would have her understood or just grew sick of my explanations? Today all her grandchildren have been vaccinated against induced inferences in TV adds, so I guess she learnt it a taught it in turn when taking care of the kids.

But, there's a question. Why on earth this has to be said once and again here, in a site devoted to scepticism? The topic surely should be part of the curricula in K-12 and first two years of college, and it isn't. But why HERE is so blatantly ignored to the point of thinking that "induced inference" is a rookie ESL mistake for "inductive inference" which has nothing to do with it, really.

I'm torn between enjoyment of the informative lecture, and annoyance at the tone of condescension.

Uh... thank you?


It was just a throwaway rant about the crap allowed in US marketing practices... that example is far from unusual, no industry or market sector is really free of it.

Perhaps if I had used a humorous approach instead, as you did in pointing out the dubious heritage claims of one of your countrymen.
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Old 17th September 2017, 07:51 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
I'm torn between enjoyment of the informative lecture, and annoyance at the tone of condescension.
That's the way it is with people who look down on everybody else.

We have laws against false and misleading advertising for a reason. If a manufacturer is able to avoid the requirements of drug advertising by a simple act of word smithing then that shouldn't be an opportunity to ridicule Joe Public and his "stupidity".
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Old 18th September 2017, 04:12 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
I'm torn between enjoyment of the informative lecture, and annoyance at the tone of condescension.

Uh... thank you?
You're welcome ... I think

It's exactly the fact that is typical what makes necessary a systemic approach. All those texts are carefully studied to bypass the laws again misleading and deceitful advertising, so there's just one defence left: teach the dudes how to fish.

To be pegged as an idiot, vulgar and the like is an efficient tool to "educate the sovereign (the People)". It Peru they had until recently the nasty habit of release themselves in the middle of the street. No campaign, no school, no ad and no fine would stop the scatological epidemics ... until mobile phones with camera came. A TV program started to screen the best videos about people soiling the cities and themselves in the doing, or making funny faces while pushing stool, and every day one video got a nice prize. In a few years the bad habit had stopped as nobody wanted to become the national laugh of the week. Now everybody do what they have to do: holding back, asking for directions to the nearest public restrooms or paying a coin for the cheapest soft drink in a bar so they can use their toilettes.

Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
It was just a throwaway rant about the crap allowed in US marketing practices... that example is far from unusual, no industry or market sector is really free of it.
That's exactly the reason you should teach how to fish, and doing it in a way no one would skip it. That includes accepting that few like to be illustrated, but everybody wants to avoid public shame. In schools, make it a contest of who brings the most ridiculous induced inference. Make the students watch TV and do their homework at the same time.

https://youtu.be/0ErKe36lHd0?t=230
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Old Yesterday, 09:22 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Incorrect.
(Diamorphine = heroin).
Wait, "Thebacon" was rated well up there. Is this delicious pork slices or movies with the great actor?

I'll take both at the same time, just to be sure.
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Old Today, 01:59 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
The entire point of the mixture of opioid hydrocodone with acetaminophen is to reduce the amount of hydrocodone needed.
IMO, the entire point was to market hydrocodone as a combination product, thereby allowing it to be regulated as a CIII drug (refills allowed; over-the-phone prescriptions OK). Now that anything with hydrocodone is Schedule II, the incentive to add other ingredients may be gone. Manufacturers were going in the direction of reducing the acetaminophen level because people were poisoning their livers by taking too much Vicodin.

I never thought much of acetaminophen as a painkiller - aspirin or other NSAIDs work better for me.

The ad where I heard "it's natural so it doesn't make me jittery" was for a weight-loss drug. Some combination of letters and numbers - R something or other. It's a dangerous line, but I'm not sure how to counter it. I have a girlfriend who likes Dr. Oz, and she gets annoyed if I query her too much on why she believes certain things.
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