ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Austria elections , Austria issues , Austria politics , Russia-Austria relations

Reply
Old 15th October 2017, 11:06 AM   #1
magellan
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 670
Russian interference in austrian elections

The ukrainians tried to warn us, now it happened.

Austria voted today, and the russians interfered!

The only austrian party that was in favor of sanctions against russia might not make it into the next parliament! (the greens) Current polls have them at 3.9%, just shy of the 4% requiered.

I guess it was via social media. Of course If the russians spent as much money on meddling with austria as they spent meddling with the US it would be almost 1000 in ad buys. (And of course none of it would have been anti green, and 560 have not been spent yet, but will be spent in the next few months)

Or maybe they just gave the money to Peter Pilz directly. Maybe he funded his election poster with it (He had just one, and took it with him wherever he went)
magellan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th October 2017, 11:15 AM   #2
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,457
When does the vote go final? (In terms of tallying the votes to find out the final % and thus whether the Greens are in or out?)
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th October 2017, 12:20 PM   #3
magellan
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 670
Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
When does the vote go final? (In terms of tallying the votes to find out the final % and thus whether the Greens are in or out?)
Only thing missing right now is "wahlkarten"
They can still nudge the greens into the parliament (they still are at 3.9, right under the 4% threshold.) Results will be in tomorrow, but the official announcement is on thursday.

Pilz (whom the greens kicked out in a rather machiavellian fashion earlier this year) got 4.3, and will remain in parliament.

Full disclosure: I voted SP today, because i feared a vote for pilz would be a lost vote, and to punish the VP for making me go to the polls one year early. It's the second time in my life i didn't vote green. (The other time was in the mid 90ies)
magellan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th October 2017, 12:22 PM   #4
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 21,136
Gotta give them credit for figuring this new method of attack first.
__________________
you to the ignorant, uneducated portion ofAmerica too short sighted to see what's right in front of your cheeto loving faces.
NoahFence is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th October 2017, 02:33 PM   #5
magellan
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 670
corection: 3.9 for the greens is with estimated wahlkarten results. Actual count has them at 3.3. Unless a miracle happens tonight they are out. Seeing how well pilz did I expect a big chunk of the wahlkarten bounce the greens usually enjoy to go his way as well.
magellan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2017, 06:17 PM   #6
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,457
I hate to play Debbie Downer here, but with the last 30+ years of the Greens being all anti nuke power plants, I am pleased to see them get the shaft. (Granted, I am on board with a variety of other elements of that platform, but our current civilization is founded on Energy). May all of the Green parties in Europe and on my side of the pond get a right rogering along with the Austrian Greens. Think about it, enviro supportive friends: had the Greens and Nader not run in 2000, Gore wins.

As Ron White once said: ya can't fix stupid.
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

Last edited by Darth Rotor; 16th October 2017 at 06:19 PM.
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2017, 06:35 PM   #7
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 14,769
Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
As Ron White once said: ya can't fix stupid.

He didn't know Putin.
__________________
De-Putin-Nazify America!
...progress updates [1] [2] [3]...
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2017, 07:43 PM   #8
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,457
CE, I am not sure what Putin has "fixed" (though some say he likes to fix elections) so I'll give it a few years and check back to see what fixing he's done.
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2017, 08:13 PM   #9
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 14,769
Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
CE, I am not sure what Putin has "fixed" (though some say he likes to fix elections) so I'll give it a few years and check back to see what fixing he's done.

He fixed stupid. The Greens aren't in the Austrian parliament because of his interference. Haven't you read the OP?
__________________
De-Putin-Nazify America!
...progress updates [1] [2] [3]...
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2017, 08:50 PM   #10
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 18,511
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
He fixed stupid. The Greens aren't in the Austrian parliament because of his interference. Haven't you read the OP?
Seeming to make fun of the idea while openly gloating over it's success. I am impressed.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2017, 09:00 PM   #11
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 14,769
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Seeming to make fun of the idea while openly gloating over it's success. I am impressed.

But you don't have a presentable car. We know.
__________________
De-Putin-Nazify America!
...progress updates [1] [2] [3]...
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2017, 01:39 AM   #12
magellan
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 670
They are out.
36.000 votes stil have to be counted, but they would need 10.000 of those.
And yes: good riddance.

Of course now we are propably going to get a VP/FP government, and I still remember the last time pretty well.

As to Nader and Gore:
I have come to the conclusion that the main difference between a republican and a democratic president is that there are protests when a republican does it.
Under Obama the US didn't take in any refugees and bombed people and folks were fine with it. Under trump the US doesn't take in any refugees and bombs people and folks are less fine with it.
magellan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2017, 07:26 PM   #13
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,457
You are invited to take in all of the refugees that you care to take in.
I suppose I could drag out the DoS data on how many refugees reached our shores between 2008 and 2016, but I'll leave that for another day since you have a habit of being wrong about some details.

For CE: well, if Mr Putin is indeed the one to get the credit for giving the Austrian Greens the elbow, that's a funny sort of move. Back in his KGB days, the nascent greens and leftists (commie symps in Western Europe) were fellow travelers, but I suppose that the world changes over time.
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

Last edited by Darth Rotor; 17th October 2017 at 07:28 PM.
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2017, 11:32 PM   #14
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,281
Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
You are invited to take in all of the refugees that you care to take in.
I suppose I could drag out the DoS data on how many refugees reached our shores between 2008 and 2016, but I'll leave that for another day since you have a habit of being wrong about some details.

For CE: well, if Mr Putin is indeed the one to get the credit for giving the Austrian Greens the elbow, that's a funny sort of move. Back in his KGB days, the nascent greens and leftists (commie symps in Western Europe) were fellow travelers, but I suppose that the world changes over time.
You have Greens under your bed as well as Reds under your bed? Must be crowded down there!
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2017, 10:28 AM   #15
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,567
A Neo Nazi Party nears getting power in a German country. Worked out so great last time that happened.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2017, 10:33 AM   #16
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,710
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
You have Greens under your bed as well as Reds under your bed? Must be crowded down there!
These days it's "bots under the cot"
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2017, 10:48 AM   #17
The Great Zaganza
Master Poster
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,890
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A Neo Nazi Party nears getting power in a German country. Worked out so great last time that happened.
no worries - Hitler was German.

no wait.

oops.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th October 2017, 11:04 AM   #18
magellan
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 670
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A Neo Nazi Party nears getting power in a German country. Worked out so great last time that happened.
Yep.
Privatisation left and right, Tuition fees (Hit me hard back then) EU putting the austrian government under "sanctions", Karl Heinz Grasser, Eurofighters instead of swiss second hand F16 or Saabs, steps towards joining Nato... it was bad!
magellan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th October 2017, 11:31 AM   #19
magellan
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 670
Oh: Forgot to tell you: The greens are officially out. They got 6% of Wahlkarten votes. Last time it was 19%.

SP got a sliver more than FP and one more seat than them. So according to tradition Kurz is supposed to negotiate with the SP first, before asking the FP. Propably not going to happen though. Heck SP FP is possible. It works in some of the bundeslander quite well (Vienna for instance)
But yes: It's going to be VP FP again. And this time there are 10 Neos (Neoliberal party), and with those they have a 2/3rds majority... yikes is all I can say there.
magellan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2017, 02:31 AM   #20
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,527
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A Neo Nazi Party nears getting power in a German country. Worked out so great last time that happened.
No kidding. The FP was founded by actual Nazis.
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
no worries - Hitler was German.
As German as Seyss Inquart.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjez Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2017, 11:51 AM   #21
magellan
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 670
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
No kidding. The FP was founded by actual Nazis.

As German as Seyss Inquart.
Erm.... yes.
It was officialy founded in the 50ies.
In the 50ies most non nazis in austria were between 5 and 15, and too young to found a party.

This summer the VP finally removed the Dollfu portrait from their parliamentary office. (Dollfu was opposed to the nazis)

Karl Renner was a proponent of reunification with germany. (I have literally no idea what the english term is for the "Anschluss")

But seriously: The FP is about as likely to start rounding up jews as swoboda is.
magellan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 01:52 AM   #22
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,527
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Erm.... yes.
It was officialy founded in the 50ies.
In the 50ies most non nazis in austria were between 5 and 15, and too young to found a party.
Now you're exaggerating. Collectively, Austria was a willing accomplice for Hitler, not his "first victim", but that does not mean every Austrian collaborated, let alone was a member of the NSDAP, let alone of the SS. However, as per wiki:
Quote:
The first FP party leader was Anton Reinthaller, a former Nazi Minister of Agriculture and SS officer.
[...]
Reinthaller was replaced as leader in 1958 by Friedrich Peter (also a former SS officer)
the FP was a handy refuge for (ex)Nazis to have a political career where the SP and VP did not tolerate that.
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
This summer the VP finally removed the Dollfu portrait from their parliamentary office. (Dollfu was opposed to the nazis)
Dolfu was also a shining paragon of democratic enlightenment. ("Austrofascist").
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Karl Renner was a proponent of reunification with germany. (I have literally no idea what the english term is for the "Anschluss")
He thought the devil he didn't know might be better than the devil he knew?
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
But seriously: The FP is about as likely to start rounding up jews as swoboda is.
It's Muslims these days that are en vogue as scapegoat.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjez Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 04:56 AM   #23
magellan
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 670
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Now you're exaggerating. Collectively, Austria was a willing accomplice for Hitler, not his "first victim", but that does not mean every Austrian collaborated, let alone was a member of the NSDAP, let alone of the SS. However, as per wiki:

the FP was a handy refuge for (ex)Nazis to have a political career where the SP and VP did not tolerate that.
Yes they did.
https://www.profil.at/home/zeitgesch...aschine-102743
For example.

Quote:
Dolfu was also a shining paragon of democratic enlightenment. ("Austrofascist").
Oh boy, now I see how that might look if you aren't familiar with the discussion. Of course the reason Dollfu was against the Nazis was because they were offering the same product.

The point was that his portrait was hanging inside their parliamentary offices until this summer! The guy who dissolved parliament! And the VP refused to part with their ideological forefather. And it's not a thing that nobody noticed. They have been called out for it over the years regularly.

Quote:
He thought the devil he didn't know might be better than the devil he knew?
Not entirely sure what devil you mean? The Austria as an independent state devil?

Quote:

It's Muslims these days that are en vogue as scapegoat.
Yes. Poor Muslims. Has nothing to do with a migration crises and the fact that a few of them are very bad drivers. Or that 100.000 got stuck here just because Merkel wanted to get patted on the head.
Just xenophobia and scapegoating.
magellan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 09:36 AM   #24
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,527
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Oh boy, that's very... sobering. Even the KP had this as official policy. You'd think that in 1945, you only get your credentials as communist when you've either been incarcerated in a KZ or been member of the resistance.

I may revise my earlier claim that there were Austrians who were not tainted by Nazism.

Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Oh boy, now I see how that might look if you aren't familiar with the discussion. Of course the reason Dollfu was against the Nazis was because they were offering the same product.

The point was that his portrait was hanging inside their parliamentary offices until this summer! The guy who dissolved parliament! And the VP refused to part with their ideological forefather. And it's not a thing that nobody noticed. They have been called out for it over the years regularly.
I think you missed my sarcasm smiley. I'm aware that Dolfu dissolved Austrian democracy and instituted a fascist dictatorship. There's a slight difference with Hitler though; Dolfu had no ambition to export his product.

Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Not entirely sure what devil you mean? The Austria as an independent state devil?
The devil I mean is Dolfu' / Schuschnigg's fascist dictatorship which had outlawed Karl Renner's SP.

Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Yes. Poor Muslims. Has nothing to do with a migration crises and the fact that a few of them are very bad drivers. Or that 100.000 got stuck here just because Merkel wanted to get patted on the head.
Just xenophobia and scapegoating.
Scapegoating of Muslims has been going on for much longer than the 2015 migration crisis and is not confined to Austria but happens all over Europe.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjez Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

Last edited by ddt; 23rd October 2017 at 09:44 AM.
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 11:32 AM   #25
magellan
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 670
I was of course a bit hyperbolic with everyone was a nazi. But "untainted" was definitely rare. Of course as the "first victim" we also didn't get to enjoy the glories of "denazification"
(Not that it worked that well in Germany either. Ever heard of Hans Globke for example? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Globke )

You may be right about Renner. Looks like he had his doubts the new austria after WW1 would be viable, and that was his main point.

Scapegoats: You are of course right. But since we are talking about elections in 2017 I don't think scapegoating in the 90ies plays that much of a role. Back then it was xenophobia, today we are having serious problems.
magellan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 11:54 AM   #26
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 14,769
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
(Not that it worked that well in Germany either. Ever heard of Hans Globke for example? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Globke )

Germany's best TV satire show had a segment on this last week, with Globke featuring prominently. Not sure if you can watch it outside of Germany, might have to proxy up. Pretty "funny", though.
__________________
De-Putin-Nazify America!
...progress updates [1] [2] [3]...
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:47 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.