ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags neil degrasse tyson , rape accusations , sexual misconduct charges

Reply
Old 26th October 2017, 12:13 PM   #41
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,955
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yeah, you're right. But honestly, it's still a sick behavior and do we have any other* evidence whatsoever NGT is sexually sick?
*Suggested fix. While we might evaluate the evidence provided as poor, I think it's still fair to call it evidence. "Corroborative" might be another good descriptor of the evidence we should probably wait to see before coming to a conclusion.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 12:14 PM   #42
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 76,519
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
FTFY.Wrong cartoon Franchise. Warners would not allow Bugs withina 100 miles of appearing at Disneyland.
I take it you didn't watch the video? It's only a minute, nineteen seconds long
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 01:54 PM   #43
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,353
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Is that supposed to be sarcasm?

Older memories are particularily at risk of alteration. The brain doesn't actually record these thing, so yeah, it can be applied as a blanket statement. Why do you say that I know "damn well" what you're saying?
What city or town were you living in when President Kennedy was assassinated?

Is that memory reinterpreted and rearranged each time that you go to recall it? Do you give a different home location each time? If you weren't yet born at that time is your memory of what is your birthdate reinterpreted and rearranged each time you go to recall it?

You "damn well" know that you have old memories which are accurate and not altered over time.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

Last edited by William Parcher; 26th October 2017 at 01:56 PM.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 02:54 PM   #44
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,100
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What city or town were you living in when President Kennedy was assassinated?

Is that memory reinterpreted and rearranged each time that you go to recall it? Do you give a different home location each time? If you weren't yet born at that time is your memory of what is your birthdate reinterpreted and rearranged each time you go to recall it?

You "damn well" know that you have old memories which are accurate and not altered over time.
I know this feels right to you, but these scenarios are particularly prone to memory distortion.

Where were you when the Challenger exploded? Why your memory might be wrong.
Quote:
Stress has been found to sharpen memory functions in both rodents and humans, and intense, negative shocks seem to leave behind vivid, detailed recollections. But an emerging body of evidence suggests that highly emotional memories do not tend to be particularly accurate.

"When I first heard about the explosion I was sitting in my freshman dorm room with my roommate and we were watching TV," wrote an Emory University student who participated in a memory study a year and a half after the Challenger disaster. "It came on as a news flash and we were both totally shocked."

But that same student had given a surprisingly different answer, just 24 hours after the tragedy. "I was in my religion class and some people walked in and started talking about [it]," she wrote. "I didn't know any details except that it had exploded and the schoolteacher's students had all been watching which I thought was so sad."

The researchers who had hustled to gather these reports found that by 1988 and 1989, not one of their 44 subjects remembered the Challenger's explosion the same way they had in its immediate aftermath.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 02:58 PM   #45
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,694
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
The thought had crossed my mind.
In light of what evidence?

At this point we have a claim, like all claims we require evidence before branding someone a rapist.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 03:03 PM   #46
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,157
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What city or town were you living in when President Kennedy was assassinated?
That's a bit old for me.

Quote:
Is that memory reinterpreted and rearranged each time that you go to recall it?
Yes, that's how memory works. It doesn't depend on the memory. It's a brain process.

Quote:
Do you give a different home location each time?
You can actually misremember a location after a while. You can recall a conversation and think it took place in some place when it in fact took place in another. This isn't a controversial fact about memory. I'm sorry if the thought of your own memory being unreliable is hurtful, but that's just a fact.

Quote:
If you weren't yet born at that time is your memory of what is your birthdate reinterpreted and rearranged each time you go to recall it?
The memory is reinterpreted. Not necessarily each element each time, because that's not how memory works.

Quote:
You "damn well" know that you have old memories which are accurate and not altered over time.
No, actually I know for a fact that none of my memories are immune to this effect. Which memories do you think are magically immune to change? Have you read a bit about this topic, or are you just talking from personal experience? Since your memories are altered, how do you know, from memory, that they're true or not?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 03:04 PM   #47
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,157
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
In light of what evidence?
...on the evidence that people tend to favour the people they like over those they don't, and this often overwhelms their judgment.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 03:05 PM   #48
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,353
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I know this feels right to you, but these scenarios are particularly prone to memory distortion.
I understand memory distortion and what it can do. I also think I understand that a person could have been raped 30 years ago and actually have an accurate memory of who did it.

It's just wrong to throw a blanket over old memories and say that those memories will be inaccurate or false.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 03:28 PM   #49
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 19,361
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I understand memory distortion and what it can do. I also think I understand that a person could have been raped 30 years ago and actually have an accurate memory of who did it.

It's just wrong to throw a blanket over old memories and say that those memories will be inaccurate or false.
The memory as a whole will not be 100% accurate but elements of the memory, especially those reinforced by recalling the memory with others or with documentary evidence, may be in tact.

I was held at gunpoint in the 90's. I remember the location, the perpetrator's name, the car I was getting out of, the general time of day, etc. I don't remember what I was wearing. I don't even remember what time of year it was. I remember what the perpetrator was wearing, because it became a big issue, so I'd say the weather was mild. I don't remember what day of the week it was. I don't remember where I was coming home from. There are a lot of things about that event I don't remember, and I bet there are some things that I am misremembering, because I've told the story a few times. But that doesn't mean I was not held up or that the man who was convicted of that crime did not hold me up.

But that conviction was based on my contemporaneous testimony, recorded by police and my contemporaneous confirmation of the perpetrator's identity. If you showed me that set of mugshots today I would be surprised if I picked the same person.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 04:03 PM   #50
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 45,910
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What city or town were you living in when President Kennedy was assassinated?

Is that memory reinterpreted and rearranged each time that you go to recall it? Do you give a different home location each time? If you weren't yet born at that time is your memory of what is your birthdate reinterpreted and rearranged each time you go to recall it?

You "damn well" know that you have old memories which are accurate and not altered over time.
I think a better exemple would be "What were you doing and where were you living when you heard about 9/11"? simply because ,like me, so many people were not alive when Kennedy was shot.

Though your general point is well taken.And, indeed everybody who was above the age of 5 in 1963 could probably tell you where and what they were doing when Kennedy was shot.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 04:16 PM   #51
Silly Green Monkey
Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness
 
Silly Green Monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 4,770
But, as the earlier Challenger example shows, they may not tell you the same where and what at a later date.
__________________
Normal is just a stereotype.
Silly Green Monkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 04:36 PM   #52
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,353
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think a better exemple would be "What were you doing and where were you living when you heard about 9/11"? simply because ,like me, so many people were not alive when Kennedy was shot.

Though your general point is well taken.And, indeed everybody who was above the age of 5 in 1963 could probably tell you where and what they were doing when Kennedy was shot.
I think you are going astray from what I am suggesting. It's really more simple. A person claims to have a memory of being raped 30 years ago and can remember the name of the rapist. They are actually claiming that it actually happened and that it is retained in their memory with accuracy. Various details may not be claimed to be retained in memory. The person is not responding to a question of "what went on in your life 30 years ago?", but is instead voluntarily giving the recollection (for whatever reasons). But if they were questioned it may go something like this...

Q: Have you ever been raped?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: Do you remember when it happened?
A: Yes, I do. It was 30 years ago.
Q: Do you remember who raped you?
A: Yes, I do. Their name is XYZ.
Q: Have you always been able to recall these three bits of information?
A: Yes, I have. Those memories are unchanged ever since the event.

I'm saying that I believe that a person can have memories like that which are unaltered and remain accurate over time. I'm not saying more than just that. Nor am I endorsing this particular woman's credibility, honesty, or ability to remember what she is claiming.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 04:48 PM   #53
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,687
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I know this feels right to you, but these scenarios are particularly prone to memory distortion.

Where were you when the Challenger exploded? Why your memory might be wrong.
[off topic but related]
I know exactly where I was when I first heard the news, and my memory of it is very clear because of the circumstances that surrounded it. I was playing cricket for Wigram in the RNZAF Interbase competition being held at Te Rapa, near Hamilton. It was the end of the first innings and we just entered the Pavilion for lunch.

The man serving behind the lunch counter said "Have you guys heard that the Shuttle crashed?"

Now, you have to understand, that when anyone in the RNZAF talked about "the Shuttle", they were not referring to the Space Shuttle, they were talking about a regular transport flight that ran three times each week up and down the country from Air Force base to Air Force base - Wigram, Wellington (Shelley Bay/Def HQ), Woodbourne, Ohakea, Hamilton (Te Rapa), Whenuapai. The first thought was that I hoped there wasn't anyone I knew on board..

Someone asked "What happened?"
Lunch guy said "It Blew up!"
Someone else asked "Where?"
Lunch guy said "In America, where else?"
Someone else asked "What the hell was it doing in America?"

Of course, at this point Lunch Guy realized were were talking at crossed purposes and explained it was the Space Shuttle.[/off topic]

However, I think that for these kinds of events (JFK/RFK assassination, Columbia, 9/11, for Kiwis, the Christchurch earthquakes) you can remember details because they are important and have an impact. I could not tell you anything about the cricket match; which team we were playing, what the result was, how I played, who all my team-mates were (I do remember some of them) or what I had for lunch.
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 04:49 PM   #54
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,353
Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
But, as the earlier Challenger example shows, they may not tell you the same where and what at a later date.
In this particular case, you would want to look for instances where this woman has said different things to different people about being raped in the past.

All I'm saying is that you shouldn't offhandedly dismiss her claim because "a recollection of an old event is just no good".

Also, there might be an apples and oranges thing going on. Folks were asked to recall the occasion that the Challenger exploded vs. a person recalling being raped. That might be comparing apples to oranges.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 04:58 PM   #55
TheGoldcountry
Philosopher
 
TheGoldcountry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,758
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Amazing the attitudes of the critical thinkers here; when we like the alleged perpetrator, we quickly jump to victim shaming "kook" or "bad memory" or "false accusation".
don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.
__________________
I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten
I sometimes think the Bible was inspired by Satan to make God look bad. And then it backfired on Him when He underestimated the stupidity of religious ideologues. -MontagK505
TheGoldcountry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 04:59 PM   #56
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 76,519
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I think you are going astray from what I am suggesting. It's really more simple. A person claims to have a memory of being raped 30 years ago and can remember the name of the rapist. They are actually claiming that it actually happened and that it is retained in their memory with accuracy. Various details may not be claimed to be retained in memory. The person is not responding to a question of "what went on in your life 30 years ago?", but is instead voluntarily giving the recollection (for whatever reasons). But if they were questioned it may go something like this...

Q: Have you ever been raped?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: Do you remember when it happened?
A: Yes, I do. It was 30 years ago.
Q: Do you remember who raped you?
A: Yes, I do. Their name is XYZ.
Q: Have you always been able to recall these three bits of information?
A: Yes, I have. Those memories are unchanged ever since the event.

I'm saying that I believe that a person can have memories like that which are unaltered and remain accurate over time. I'm not saying more than just that. Nor am I endorsing this particular woman's credibility, honesty, or ability to remember what she is claiming.
I do agree someone is likely to remember a rape, even decades later.

But there are people who are susceptible to false memories. I know people who tell lies like Trump does and I'm pretty sure at some point they no longer recognize they are lying.

And do we know yet if these memories were awakened during a hypnosis session? Why is this woman talking now? Does she want to be on the accuser wave, 15 minutes of fame and all that?

Not saying this story will definitely turn out to be false, but there are red flags here.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 05:05 PM   #57
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,955
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And do we know yet if these memories were awakened during a hypnosis session? Why is this woman talking now? Does she want to be on the accuser wave, 15 minutes of fame and all that?

Not saying this story will definitely turn out to be false, but there are red flags here.
Let's be fair here. She posted her story over 3 years ago. A supposed journalist blogger was the one who most recently dredged it up, and he apparently asked for but didn't receive a comment from the victim. Given the latter, I don't think we have evidence to even suspect that she's looking for attention today.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 05:09 PM   #58
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,157
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I understand memory distortion and what it can do. I also think I understand that a person could have been raped 30 years ago and actually have an accurate memory of who did it.

It's just wrong to throw a blanket over old memories and say that those memories will be inaccurate or false.
Nobody did that. You added content to my statements that wasn't there. Of course the memory can be accurate. But there are mechanisms in place that make it likely that it's not entirely accurate, at the very least.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 05:11 PM   #59
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,353
Imagine this conversation...

I was raped 20 years ago and the guy is in prison but I have to live with the horror of remembering it every single day.

Yeah, well your memories are constantly altered so you really don't remember what happened to you. Here, let me show you studies done on the widespread fallibility of memory.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 05:16 PM   #60
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,353
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Nobody did that. You added content to my statements that wasn't there. Of course the memory can be accurate. But there are mechanisms in place that make it likely that it's not entirely accurate, at the very least.
I'm not talking about accuracy of entirety. I'm talking about...

Was raped.
30 years ago.
Still knows his name.

That's it. Full stop.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 05:23 PM   #61
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,157
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm not talking about accuracy of entirety. I'm talking about...

Was raped.
30 years ago.
Still knows his name.

That's it. Full stop.
No, it's not it. I was responding originally to a post by Kestrel which was more general. You popped in an doubted that, even though ALL memory is subject to this. All. Now you want to narrow your point but that's post hoc. You responded to my response to Kestrel. If you misunderstood our point, that's fine, but don't change the topic of the discussion retroactively.

Quote:
Imagine this conversation...

I was raped 20 years ago and the guy is in prison but I have to live with the horror of remembering it every single day.

Yeah, well your memories are constantly altered so you really don't remember what happened to you. Here, let me show you studies done on the widespread fallibility of memory.
I see you're in full make-****-up mode. Nobody here said anything like this. But I suppose it's easier to consider other posters idiots when you're arguing against made-up, ridiculous arguments.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward



Last edited by Belz...; 26th October 2017 at 05:24 PM.
Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 05:30 PM   #62
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,353
I could do this all day long. Here's another conversation...

I was raped by 2 guys 10 years ago. They raped me for about an hour. I became pregnant and had an abortion.

Yeah, well your memories are constantly altered so you really don't remember what happened to you. It could have been one guy or maybe it was 9 guys. Your abortion could have happened 3 years before your rape incident. Here, let me show you studies done on the widespread fallibility of memory.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 05:36 PM   #63
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,687
1. the story doesn't appear anywhere other than blogs, most of which have dubious journalism credentials.
2. the lack of presence in mainstream media after three years means the story has probably failed fact checking.

The victim clams it was reported to Police at the time. This is 1987 in Austin Texas - redneck country. That the Police didn't proceed on a rape complaint from a white student against a black student is even less believable than this story.

The story seems to meet some of the criteria for "fake news", and I am tending towards "not a real story" until I hear/read evidence to the contrary. As far as I know, NDT has not even addressed the story.
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

Last edited by smartcooky; 26th October 2017 at 05:38 PM.
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 05:38 PM   #64
applecorped
Suspended
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,796
Did he offer to touch Uranus?
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 05:40 PM   #65
desmirelle
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 483
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm not finding the account credible. I imagine NGT at that time would have had no trouble getting laid.
<snip>
<snip>.
And herein lies the problem. You are equating the act of rape with that of a consensual sexual encounter.

Rape is an assault where sex is the weapon. It is a crime of POWER, not passion. Whether the perp is male or female, it's about having the POWER over the victim.

The other problem is 'public persona' vs. private personality. They are often very different. Rock Hudson's rep was virile, skirt-chasing man until he was forced to come clean by AIDS. The reality is that we don't know any of these men, we only know the side they show us.
desmirelle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 05:41 PM   #66
applecorped
Suspended
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,796
The gender Wars are progressing nicely
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 05:46 PM   #67
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,353
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
a rape complaint from a white student against a black student
I don't know what her racial ancestry is but she might appear to be black or mixed.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg a1667058037_2.jpg (33.9 KB, 6 views)
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 05:47 PM   #68
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,955
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The victim clams it was reported to Police at the time. This is 1987 in Austin Texas - redneck country. That the Police didn't proceed on a rape complaint from a white student against a black student is even less believable than this story.
Are you referring to some other case? Because both people under discussion here are black.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 05:47 PM   #69
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,157
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I could do this all day long. Here's another conversation...
No, I won't entertain another of your strawmen. You know full well, especially after so many dishonest attempts, that no one here is saying anything of the sort.

The point of the matter is that all memories are subject to alteration, at the very least on the details, and especially over long periods of time where you've had plenty of opportunities to recall and reinterpret them.

That's it. Full stop.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 06:08 PM   #70
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 76,519
Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Let's be fair here. She posted her story over 3 years ago. A supposed journalist blogger was the one who most recently dredged it up, and he apparently asked for but didn't receive a comment from the victim. Given the latter, I don't think we have evidence to even suspect that she's looking for attention today.
Oh, didn't know that. However, the 'abused victim wave' cannot be ruled out given that was peak Cosby revelation time.

But your info adds even more weird to this. And there are people including at least one in this forum that have some unfounded hate on NDT. OMG Tyson said there are no penguins in the northern hemisphere and one species lives on both sides of the equator in the Galapagos.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 26th October 2017 at 06:14 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 06:14 PM   #71
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 25,813
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh, didn't know that. However, the 'abused victim wave' cannot be ruled out given that was peak Cosby revelation time.

But your info adds even more weird to this. And there are people including at least one in this forum that have some unfounded hate on NGT. OMG Tyson said there are no penguins in the northern hemisphere and one species lives on both sides of the equator in the Galapagos.
If it is the poster I am thinking of, the same one did say that he or she didn't believe Tyson was a rapist. And it is NDT!
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 07:52 PM   #72
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 21,527
Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
I think it's just awful when Hollywood people are accuse of rape before any charges are laid.
Or hush money paid out.
__________________
'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 08:04 PM   #73
phunk
Illuminator
 
phunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,042
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I was held at gunpoint in the 90's. I remember the location, the perpetrator's name, the car I was getting out of, the general time of day, etc. I don't remember what I was wearing. I don't even remember what time of year it was. I remember what the perpetrator was wearing, because it became a big issue, so I'd say the weather was mild. I don't remember what day of the week it was. I don't remember where I was coming home from. There are a lot of things about that event I don't remember, and I bet there are some things that I am misremembering, because I've told the story a few times. But that doesn't mean I was not held up or that the man who was convicted of that crime did not hold me up.
And if you found some way to look up details that you didn't remember, and told the story again enough times, you'd remember some of the details as if you always had remembered them, not as if you looked them up. Even if the info you looked up was wrong...
phunk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2017, 11:41 PM   #74
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,925
Let me remind you that the discussion about whether or not (or how) you would remember being raped 30 years ago is completely irrelevant in this case because even the alleged victim doesn't claim to remember being raped. What she claims is that she remembers being drugged prior to being raped, but even that alleged memory is rather odd:
Quote:
He offered me a glass of water. I accepted a liquid in a cup made out of a coconut shell. I recall coming back to consciousness briefly, then next thing I remember is seeing him in the hallway the next day. I have lived in this nightmare for 30 years, and it stops today.
Maybe a more complete version of her story is published somewhere else, I don't know, but based on this alone, it makes me wonder:
1) When people "recall coming back to consciousness", their recollection is usually about something other than merely being conscious (unless they're Descartes, I guess): Conscious of what?! In the case of rape victims it might be: … and he was on top of me … or: … and he was taking off his clothes … Whatever, just something.
2) Apparently she also doesn't remember waking up again or any other thoughts that a victim of a drug rape might have. Instead, the next thing she remembers after the pretty specific memory of a liquid in a coconut shell is "seeing him in the hallway the next day."
It doesn't seem to make sense. No thoughts when waking up? Where am I? What happened last night? How did I get here?
Was she still at his place? And if not: How did she get back to her own room? Residue of bodily fluids in her panties or any other signs of involuntary intercourse? Torn clothes? Bruises?
These are things that I think a victim of drug rape might remember 30 years later, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 12:15 AM   #75
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,073
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What city or town were you living in when President Kennedy was assassinated?

Is that memory reinterpreted and rearranged each time that you go to recall it? Do you give a different home location each time? If you weren't yet born at that time is your memory of what is your birthdate reinterpreted and rearranged each time you go to recall it?

You "damn well" know that you have old memories which are accurate and not altered over time.
I don't know if this is relevant but I'm pretty sure I accurately remember the phone number at the house where I grew up, and the address, even though I moved away decades ago. But maybe that's a different kind of memory.

I have more trouble remembering my current phone number, because I never dial it. Modern technology makes that unnecessary.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

Last edited by Puppycow; 27th October 2017 at 12:19 AM.
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 03:20 AM   #76
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,694
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
...on the evidence that people tend to favour the people they like over those they don't, and this often overwhelms their judgment.
So we should believe the claim without evidence?

Skeptics site my friend. At the moment no evidence has been presented, should that change so should our view
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 04:19 AM   #77
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,157
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
So we should believe the claim without evidence?

Skeptics site my friend. At the moment no evidence has been presented, should that change so should our view
Did you even read my post? Someone described the behaviour of posters here, and I agreed that this is often how people behave. How do you get from there to what people "should" do?

Why do so many posters here have such a problem distinguishing descriptive statements from prescriptive ones?

Also, Rule of So and Belz...'s First Law of Non-Sequiturs.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 04:30 AM   #78
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,925
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I don't know if this is relevant but I'm pretty sure I accurately remember the phone number at the house where I grew up, and the address, even though I moved away decades ago. But maybe that's a different kind of memory.
I'm not only pretty sure but quite certain that I do too, and things like that come in handy when you have to come up with new passwords. And, yes, that is a different kind of memory! If memories like these changed every time you recollected them, you would have to write everything down. Remembering a phone number (in the past) or a password (nowadays) would be impossible.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 05:50 AM   #79
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,353
The more I think about it the more that Challenger experiment becomes an apple compared to an orange.

The group was asked where they were when the Challenger exploded. They did quite poorly at it. Now try to apply it to rape victims.

Can you remember where you were raped? Do they do similarly poor with their answer?

Can you remember the person who raped you? Do a lot of rape victims get the answer wrong?

Are memories of a rape incident reinterpreted and rearranged over time to the same extent that Challenger explosion memories are?
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 06:10 AM   #80
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 43,743
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Are memories of a rape incident reinterpreted and rearranged over time to the same extent that Challenger explosion memories are?
Of course they are; that's how memory works. Why do you suppose the subject of the memory would affect how the brain recalls it?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:33 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.