ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags neil degrasse tyson , rape accusations , sexual misconduct charges

Reply
Old 27th October 2017, 06:11 AM   #81
Ron_Tomkins
Satan's Helper
 
Ron_Tomkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 43,897
Somehow I get the feeling that it's not coincidence that this accusation is happening now, in the midst of a sort of climate where it feels like everyone is now getting accused of rape/sexual harassing. Just two days ago I found out Louis CK had also been accused, and now Neil Degrasse Tyson??

So either the Weinstein case has inspired a lot of women to come out and make their own voices heard about things that happened to them.... or this new environment has created a whole new snowball effect phenomena of people going around making false accusations, either because they're crazy, or because they think they can get away with it (Since as far as I'm seeing, all these accusations are against people who are famous and have a lot of money)
__________________
"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan"

Carl Sagan
Ron_Tomkins is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 06:19 AM   #82
Stacko
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,837
Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Somehow I get the feeling that it's not coincidence that this accusation is happening now, in the midst of a sort of climate where it feels like everyone is now getting accused of rape/sexual harassing. Just two days ago I found out Louis CK had also been accused, and now Neil Degrasse Tyson??
Perhaps you should pay more attention? This accusation and the ones against Louis CK are years old and not just happening now.

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
So either the Weinstein case has inspired a lot of women to come out and make their own voices heard about things that happened to them.... or this new environment has created a whole new snowball effect phenomena of people going around making false accusations, either because they're crazy, or because they think they can get away with it (Since as far as I'm seeing, all these accusations are against people who are famous and have a lot of money)
False dichotomy based on a false premise.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 06:39 AM   #83
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,749
I'm quite prepared to believe she's sincere and believes she was raped.

What she actually remembers is being in his apartment, which she says was quite usual, and being handed a drink of water. Next thing she can remember is meeting him the next day.

There doesn't appear to be a problem with the accuracy of what she remembers but rather with a large blank in what she remembers.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 06:53 AM   #84
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,353
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Of course they are; that's how memory works. Why do you suppose the subject of the memory would affect how the brain recalls it?
Reinterpretation and rearrangement carries the implication of loss of accuracy. If that doesn't effect accuracy then we can skip the debate.

Originally Posted by Challenger Experiment
Stress has been found to sharpen memory functions in both rodents and humans, and intense, negative shocks seem to leave behind vivid, detailed recollections. But an emerging body of evidence suggests that highly emotional memories do not tend to be particularly accurate.
They are saying that stress sharpens the memory but highly emotional memories tend not to be very accurate. They use the Challenger explosion as an example and found poor recollection of where the person was when they heard the news. I would propose that the experience of being raped is much more stressful and emotional than hearing or reading news that a spaceship has exploded. The experience of the Challenger news seems trivial and inconsequential when compared to the experience of being raped. The experimenters didn't do a study of the memory of rape victims. They never inquired to see if rape victims can accurately remember where they were when they were raped.


Quote:
Why do you suppose the subject of the memory would affect how the brain recalls it?
Because I think that the subject of the memory can matter with regards to accuracy, and that the experiment doesn't address that.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 06:57 AM   #85
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,183
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Reinterpretation and rearrangement carries the implication of loss of accuracy.
Well yes it does. Again, if you have trouble with that, I suggest you read up on human memory.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 07:21 AM   #86
Fizil
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 684
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Can you remember the person who raped you? Do a lot of rape victims get the answer wrong?
I don't know the statistics on this*, but you should look up the story of Jennifer Thompson and Ronald Cotton.

The basics of the story are this: Jennifer Thompson was raped. Her rapist also raped another woman later that same night. During her rape she focused on memorizing what her assailant looked like, trying to remember as many details as possible. She was able to give police sketch artists many details to generate a good composite. Based on this, Ronald Cotton became a suspect. Jennifer was able to confidently ID him as her rapist from a photo array. Then she ID'd him in a physical lineup. At trial she confidently identified Ronald Cotton as her rapist. He was convicted and sent to jail.

He didn't do it though. Now to be fair to those arguing against the severity of memory contamination, the guy who actually did it did look quite similar to Ronald Cotton, but it wasn't him.

The actual rapists name was Bobby Poole, and on the testimony of another inmate that Bobby Poole had confessed to both rapes that night, Ronald Cotton was given a new trial. However, despite seeing Bobby Poole and Ronald Cotton in the same room, Jennifer was still absolutely sure her rapist was Cotton, and not Poole. Ronald Cotton was convicted yet again.

After around 10 years in prison, he saw the DNA evidence presented at the O.J. Simpson trial, and asked his lawyer about it. His lawyer had DNA testing done on the remaining evidence from the rape kits that had been done that night. The results: Ronald Cotton was exonerated, and Bobby Poole was shown to be the actual rapist.

What happened? Well one of the primary problems noted with this case is the use of photo arrays and lineups by police, and the way they can contaminate memory. When given an array of say 5 photos, or a line-up of 5 people, and asked to identify a culprit, witnesses/victims assume that one of the people present in that lineup is the guilty party. So Jennifer Thompson ids Ronald Cotton from the photo array, then when she ids him in the physical lineup receives positive reinforcement from the police "Good Job! That is the same guy you fingered in the photo array." This increases her certainty that it was Ronald Cotton who raped her. Her memory of the events essentially have Ronald Cotton retconned into them, so that when she sees Bobby Poole, despite how similar they look, that isn't the man who raped her in her memory.

This experience led Jennifer Thompson to become an advocate for reforming things like this (often with Ronald Cotton, of whom she asked forgiveness, and received it). So her state of North Carolina became the first to mandate things like serial photo arrays where people are given one picture at a time instead of several all at once.

*: I do have one statistic on this. About 75% of people falsely convicted and exonerated by DNA evidence, were primarily convicted on bad eyewitness testimony.

Last edited by Fizil; 27th October 2017 at 07:25 AM.
Fizil is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 07:48 AM   #87
Joe Random
Master Poster
 
Joe Random's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,133
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Let me remind you that the discussion about whether or not (or how) you would remember being raped 30 years ago is completely irrelevant in this case because even the alleged victim doesn't claim to remember being raped. What she claims is that she remembers being drugged prior to being raped, but even that alleged memory is rather odd:

Maybe a more complete version of her story is published somewhere else, I don't know, but based on this alone, it makes me wonder:
1) When people "recall coming back to consciousness", their recollection is usually about something other than merely being conscious (unless they're Descartes, I guess): Conscious of what?! In the case of rape victims it might be: and he was on top of me or: and he was taking off his clothes Whatever, just something.
2) Apparently she also doesn't remember waking up again or any other thoughts that a victim of a drug rape might have. Instead, the next thing she remembers after the pretty specific memory of a liquid in a coconut shell is "seeing him in the hallway the next day."
It doesn't seem to make sense. No thoughts when waking up? Where am I? What happened last night? How did I get here?
Was she still at his place? And if not: How did she get back to her own room? Residue of bodily fluids in her panties or any other signs of involuntary intercourse? Torn clothes? Bruises?
These are things that I think a victim of drug rape might remember 30 years later, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

He should have played things safe and offered her a stimulating beverage to wake up her senses, and do it some place public. For example, offer coffee while they're in an elevator. Nothing bad could possibly come from that ...
Joe Random is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 07:56 AM   #88
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,353
Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
I don't know the statistics on this*, but you should look up the story of Jennifer Thompson and Ronald Cotton.
It looks like rape victims have difficulty with accurate memory recollection when they don't already know the rapist.

I suspect that that changes when the rapist happens to be an acquaintance. I've read that many (most?) victims were raped by a person that they already knew. I suspect that in these cases the memory of rapist identity has greater accuracy.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 08:01 AM   #89
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 88,029
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Of course they are; that's how memory works. Why do you suppose the subject of the memory would affect how the brain recalls it?
Not quite, that is how some memories appear to work, others can be remarkably persistent - 604825 - that's the telphone number of my best friend from school, not rang it for over 30 years but I can still recall it.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 08:05 AM   #90
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,353
A friend of mine raped me. His name is XYZ.

I'm sorry to hear that. We are going to present you with a photo array. Please try to pick him out.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 08:06 AM   #91
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,930
Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
He should have played things safe and offered her a stimulating beverage to wake up her senses, and do it some place public. For example, offer coffee while they're in an elevator. Nothing bad could possibly come from that ...

I am not sure that everybody is familiar with your allusion!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 08:07 AM   #92
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,183
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It looks like rape victims have difficulty with accurate memory recollection when they don't already know the rapist.

I suspect that that changes when the rapist happens to be an acquaintance. I've read that many (most?) victims were raped by a person that they already knew. I suspect that in these cases the memory of rapist identity has greater accuracy.
I'm sure you're correct, since the familiarity would mean that the memory is cross-referenced with others, which helps strengthen it.

But you're still having trouble admitting that you were wrong and that, in fact, no memory is immune to alteration.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 08:13 AM   #93
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,353
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
But you're still having trouble admitting that you were wrong and that, in fact, no memory is immune to alteration.
I'm not denying that memories can be altered. But we have examples of memories that appear to be immune to, or have somehow resisted alteration.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 08:15 AM   #94
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,183
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm not denying that memories can be altered. But we have examples of memories that
appear to be immune to, or have somehow resisted alteration.
They're not immune. Memories can be reinforced as well. It depends on a number of factors. No memory is immune, which is the whole point of the discussion, so if you could stop using strawmen and just agree to that, we can move on.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 08:20 AM   #95
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,353
No memory is truly immune to alteration but we have examples of memories that do not have altered accuracy.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 08:23 AM   #96
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,183
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
No memory is truly immune to alteration but we have examples of memories that do not have altered accuracy.
Good. Better late than never, I guess.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 08:24 AM   #97
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,930
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
They are saying that stress sharpens the memory but highly emotional memories tend not to be very accurate. They use the Challenger explosion as an example and found poor recollection of where the person was when they heard the news. I would propose that the experience of being raped is much more stressful and emotional than hearing or reading news that a spaceship has exploded. The experience of the Challenger news seems trivial and inconsequential when compared to the experience of being raped. The experimenters didn't do a study of the memory of rape victims. They never inquired to see if rape victims can accurately remember where they were when they were raped.

Because I think that the subject of the memory can matter with regards to accuracy, and that the experiment doesn't address that.
I think that you're right! The Challenger explosion doesn't really concern most people personally, so unless you were in an unusual place or maybe surrounded by people that you immediately started talking with about it, you might not remember where you were when you heard about it. In the case of being raped, things like the place and the perpetrator are very essential to you and to the incident. (Meeting cartoon characters in Disneyland, well, not so much - unless you were raped by Donald Duck and/or Bugs Bunny.) In most rape cases you probably wouldn't be in doubt about where you were at the time, and if you already knew the rapist, it's unlikely that you would forget about him. But on the other hand, you might not remember the clothes he was wearing at the time or, if he was unknown to you until then, what he looked like and similar details.
I remember the Challenger explosion, but I have no idea where I was at the time.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 08:33 AM   #98
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 19,391
This whole memory derail is a bit off topic since she doesn't actually claim to have any memory of being raped. Interesting, but irrelevant to the topic of the thread.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 08:34 AM   #99
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,999
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not quite, that is how some memories appear to work, others can be remarkably persistent - 604825 - that's the telphone number of my best friend from school, not rang it for over 30 years but I can still recall it.
Part of what we're discussing is that it's possible to recall things with utmost clarity of detail and complete confidence in the accuracy of the recollection, and yet still be wrong.

You haven't tested the number in 30 years. How can you be so sure you remember it correctly?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 08:52 AM   #100
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,930
A case from my second or third year as a university student:
One of the female students freaked out, seriously. She was probably already highly strung, an overachiever, trying to combine student politics (at the time: pretty intense, mid 1970s) with being an A+-student, and on top of that, she had a crush on one of the young teachers, unrequited, and had an abortion.
She had a complete breakdown to the extent that she had delusions that he teacher had raped her and was the father of the aborted fetus (something that her actual boyfriend denied could have happened), she noticed that everybody on TV was smiling, and she knew that this was because the revolution was approaching, so she barricaded her parents' house and borrowed the father's hunting rifle to protect herself, her brother and parents from counter revolutionaries. (Apparently, the parents were so aggravated by her condition that they played along with her because they didn't know what else to do.)
Luckily, she was committed to a mental institution without anybody else being (more than, maybe, emotionally) damaged.
Things like that happen. Not every day, thank fate, but they do happen.
My guess is that the Tyson case is similar to this story, but I have no way of knowing, of course.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 08:52 AM   #101
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
No memory is truly immune to alteration but we have examples of memories that do not have altered accuracy.
Are you remembering those examples correctly?
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 08:53 AM   #102
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,183
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
This whole memory derail is a bit off topic since she doesn't actually claim to have any memory of being raped. Interesting, but irrelevant to the topic of the thread.
How can she claim to be raped if she doesn't claim to have a memory of it?

I think reliability of memory absolutely are on-topic when discussing experiences.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 08:53 AM   #103
ahhell
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,689
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Can you remember the person who raped you? Do a lot of rape victims get the answer wrong?
Yes.

https://www.innocenceproject.org/cases/ronald-cotton/ At least on occasion.

Last edited by ahhell; 27th October 2017 at 09:04 AM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 08:56 AM   #104
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,930
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You haven't tested the number in 30 years. How can you be so sure you remember it correctly?
Old phone bills, for instance? Old notebooks? Other old papers?
Why are you so hard to convince that things like old phone numbers, even other people's that you would call frequently, won't stick in your memory till your dying day?
Do you forget your passwords all the time? Does your memory of your passwords change from day to day?
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 27th October 2017 at 10:04 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 09:04 AM   #105
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,749
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
How can she claim to be raped if she doesn't claim to have a memory of it?
She believes the gap in her memory implies she was drugged in order to be raped. It's hardly infeasible, it's just not much in terms of evidence.

Quote:
I think reliability of memory absolutely are on-topic when discussing experiences.
With no memory of events are they experiences?
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 09:06 AM   #106
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,183
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
She believes the gap in her memory implies she was drugged in order to be raped. It's hardly infeasible, it's just not much in terms of evidence.
Wow, so the whole discussion about memory was entirely irrelevant, then.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 09:12 AM   #107
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,749
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Wow, so the whole discussion about memory was entirely irrelevant, then.
Might leap into relevance if somebody posts some interesting stuff about the prevalence of people having seemingly unexplained gaps in their memory. Otherwise, yes.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 09:12 AM   #108
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,930
A case of false rape allegations in Denmark, 2008:
A 15-year-old girl, the daughter of a judge, claims to have been raped by three young men, 16-year-old Mahmoud El-Abed El-Ahmad, 15-year-old Mahmoud Walid Fathi and 16-year-old Sharif Saloni, at a public toilet at a railway station.
One of them was sentenced to 2 years and 3 months in jail, the other two to 2 years. They were later acquitted, but only because the brother of one of the young men recorded her telling him that it was a lie: She did have sex with Sharif Saloni, who paid her 27 dkr. (about 4 US-$), but it was consensual because she needed money for bus fare, but now she couldn't take back her allegations because her family would never believe in her anymore!
http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/article4177536.ece
These things happen - and when the daughter of a judge accuses three sons of Middle Eastern immigrants …
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 27th October 2017 at 09:33 AM. Reason: US- --> US-$
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 09:13 AM   #109
Pterodactyl
Graduate Poster
 
Pterodactyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,180
Accuse someone people like of rape, and the whole concept of human memory gets called into question.
Pterodactyl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 09:15 AM   #110
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,183
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Accuse someone people like of rape, and the whole concept of human memory gets called into question.
You know, there's a reason why eyewitness testimony is weak evidence.

Furthermore, if you read the thread, you'll see that people posted reasons why they doubt the account.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 09:17 AM   #111
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,930
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Accuse someone people like of rape, and the whole concept of human memory gets called into question.
No, the whole concept of human memory is called into question the whole time.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 09:21 AM   #112
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 19,391
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
How can she claim to be raped if she doesn't claim to have a memory of it?
She doesn't have the same logical filters that you do. From what I have seen she claims to have lost consciousness. That is it.

Quote:
I think reliability of memory absolutely are on-topic when discussing experiences.
Generally, yes, but in this case we don't have to question whether her memory is true, just the inferences she makes based on her memory.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 09:23 AM   #113
Pterodactyl
Graduate Poster
 
Pterodactyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,180
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You know, there's a reason why eyewitness testimony is weak evidence.

Furthermore, if you read the thread, you'll see that people posted reasons why they doubt the account.
I did read the thread, I just think it's interesting the direction it has gone.
Pterodactyl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 09:24 AM   #114
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,183
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
I did read the thread, I just think it's interesting the direction it has gone.
Do you consider the reasons given to be irrational or unfounded? If not, why is it interesting?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 09:29 AM   #115
Pterodactyl
Graduate Poster
 
Pterodactyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,180
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do you consider the reasons given to be irrational or unfounded? If not, why is it interesting?
Because with anything that has ever been witnessed in human history, we could debate its accuracy based on the fallibility of the memories of those who claimed to have witnessed the event.

There are numerous sexual assault/rape threads going on right now. Only one has gone down this path.
Pterodactyl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 09:31 AM   #116
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,183
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Because with anything that has ever been witnessed in human history, we could debate its accuracy based on the fallibility of the memories of those who claimed to have witnessed the event.

There are numerous sexual assault/rape threads going on right now. Only one has gone down this path.
You've not answered my first question, upon which the second was dependant.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 09:32 AM   #117
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,930
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
There are numerous sexual assault/rape threads going on right now. Only one has gone down this path.
Your point being?!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 09:33 AM   #118
ahhell
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,689
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Might leap into relevance if somebody posts some interesting stuff about the prevalence of people having seemingly unexplained gaps in their memory. Otherwise, yes.
There is relevance in this case. The accusation occurred 30 years after the fact. Even the laps in memory is questionable, unless she's been telling this story to friends for the last 30 years.

Humans routinely conflate memories and alter them as time passes. People often remember stories they were told by others as having happened to them we combine memories of events together when they were separated in time and geography, we remember the wrong people being present at events and forgot the people that were actually their.

Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Accuse someone people like of rape, and the whole concept of human memory gets called into question.
Nope, the whole concept of memory is always in question, it just isn't reliable.

Now, have someone else back up at least parts of her story or others come out with similar stories and you start to build a case.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 09:37 AM   #119
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,824
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Accuse someone people like of rape, and the whole concept of human memory gets called into question.
The only reason it seems inappropriate to me that the concept of human memory be called into question in this particular thread - as opposed to many other threads where it is repeatedly and quite sensibly called into question insofar as it's claimed to constitute an accurate depiction of events, which it is very frequently not - is that in this instance, it's irrelevant; the woman accusing Tyson of raping her clearly states in the text of her accusation that she has no memory of being raped. What should be being called into question is, in the absence of any memory of rape, what is the actual basis of her accusation? I'm struggling to find one, other than that she suffered a period of memory loss and couldn't come up with any other explanation for it.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 09:37 AM   #120
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 25,813
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
How can she claim to be raped if she doesn't claim to have a memory of it?
.
I don't know about this case, but there is nothing wrong, in principle, with claiming to have been raped with no memory of the event. Other evidence, if it existed could be forensic or photographic or third person witnesses or even confessions.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:54 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.