Ed Breaking: Mueller Grand Jury charges filed, arrests as soon as Monday

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TheL8Elvis said:
And for those who don't believe the "fake news" ....

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...s-start-questioning-white-house-staffers.html

Sources told Fox News then-senator Jeff Sessions shut down the discussion, with others following up via email that such a meeting might violate the Logan Act -- a 200-year-old statute that bars American citizens from engaging with a foreign government without authorization from the current U.S. government.

Fox News was told the meeting was more for the cameras than a serious national security discussion, with one source saying investigators were told the president had no reaction to the proposed Russian meeting and another saying the president seemed flattered by the idea.

Trump and Sessions was well aware of the attempts to set up a meeting with trump ...
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It certainly appears he committed perjury.

Looks like Jeff Sessions perjured himself. Robert Mueller’s investigation into Russian interference in the election has entangled the attorney general. In his sworn testimony during his confirmation hearing in January, Sessions was asked by Senator Al Franken, “If there is any evidence that anyone affiliated with the Trump campaign communicated with the Russian government in the course of this campaign, what will you do?” Sessions responded: “Senator Franken, I’m not aware of any of those activities. I have been called a surrogate at a time or two in that campaign and I didn’t have—did not have communications with the Russians, and I’m unable to comment on it.”

But George Papadopoulos’s guilty plea indicates that there were attempts in the Trump campaign to arrange a meeting with Putin, and that Sessions was aware of them. As CNN reports this morning, “The chairman of Trump’s national security team, then Alabama Senator and now Attorney General Jeff Sessions, shut down the idea of a Putin meeting at the March 31, 2016, gathering, according to the source. His reaction was confirmed with another source who had discussed Sessions’s role.”

The good news for Sessions is that he can plausibly claim to have opposed any Russian collusion. The bad news is that, in making those claims, he opens himself up to charges of perjury.
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Jim_MDP said:
That appears to have been the main intent, with a Trump win preferable to Clinton. The actual "fake news" campaign and posts etc may have favored Trump, but some percentage were designed to attack him as well.

Sowing discontent, anger, uncertainty in the democratic process were the big picture.

Yes... Russia succeeded. :(
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:( Yes.
 
Meadmaker said:
I'm not following the perjury inference here.

Going by the article you quoted, it says that Sessions testified he knew of no communications with Russians, and it says that when someone attempted to communicate with Russians, Sessions shut down the effort.


Where's the perjury?
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He attempted to shut down an existing set of contacts?
 
Jim_MDP said:
That appears to have been the main intent, with a Trump win preferable to Clinton. The actual "fake news" campaign and posts etc may have favored Trump, but some percentage were designed to attack him as well.

Sowing discontent, anger, uncertainty in the democratic process were the big picture.

Yes... Russia succeeded. :(
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I have found myself wondering these many months just what the Russians were up to, and I thought that that was worth investigating. Why are they concerned?

It's all starting to make sense now. And while I do not know if the Russian involvement is actually responsible, in part, for the sorry state of hyperpartisanship that infects America at the moment, they are certainly happy with the result.
 
Meadmaker said:
I'm not following the perjury inference here.

Going by the article you quoted, it says that Sessions testified he knew of no communications with Russians, and it says that when someone attempted to communicate with Russians, Sessions shut down the effort.


Where's the perjury?
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How can he shut down something he said didn't exist? It existed and he lied about its existence.
 
Meadmaker said:
I have found myself wondering these many months just what the Russians were up to, and I thought that that was worth investigating. Why are they concerned?

It's all starting to make sense now. And while I do not know if the Russian involvement is actually responsible, in part, for the sorry state of hyperpartisanship that infects America at the moment, they are certainly happy with the result.
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From a thread on the Russian Facebook and Google bots

jimbob said:
theprestige said:
Do you happen to have an example of one of the ads you're talking about? I'd like to see what Russia's been getting for their money.
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They seem to have been getting some unrest at least:

Cross posted from the Trump and Russia thread

Organizers behind armed white supremacist protest in Houston revealed as Russian
"It really gives an indication of the extent to which there must be a major Russian apparatus."

As CNN reported last week, the protest was put together by the “Heart of Texas” Facebook page – a page that was revealed last month as one of the fake accounts operated out of Russia. Unlike the November anti-Hillary Clinton, pro-secession rallies the page attempted to organize across Texas, the May protest not only brought armed protesters, but a raft of counter-protesters to face down those calling for “white power!”
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“What’s relevant about the Russia thing is it absolutely validates the concern that people have that the Russians were putting out completely fabricated stories,” Faisal Shah, a lawyer for the Islamic center, told ThinkProgress. Or as Mustafaa Carroll, executive director of CAIR Texas, told Houston’s ABC affiliate, “This stuff where we see the Russians instigating – you know, that’s crazy.”
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jimbob said:
“What’s kind of remarkable is that a Russian agent would be burrowing down that deep in the weeds to find a story that’s that local, and cooking up something, fabricating something, at such a small picture, such a detailed picture,” Shah added. “It really gives an indication of the extent to which there must be a major Russian apparatus, that they’re willing to put the kind of resources to drill down that deep. So I’m actually kind of fascinated by just the depth of fake news.”
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Stacko said:
How can he shut down something he said didn't exist? It existed and he lied about its existence.
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If that's all there is, it's wishful thinking to expect a perjury conviction.


If the article is to be believed, then someone tried to set up a meeting to discuss something. In doing so, we can assume that they communicated a time and place for the meeting to occur. Maybe even a general topic for the meeting. Sessions learned of the meeting and shut down the meeting before it happened. Later, he said he knew of no communication.

You think that when he later said "no communication", but in fact he knew that they agreed to meet, but the meeting never happened, that's perjury? Good luck trying to win that case.
 
Meadmaker said:
If that's all there is, it's wishful thinking to expect a perjury conviction.


If the article is to be believed, then someone tried to set up a meeting to discuss something. In doing so, we can assume that they communicated a time and place for the meeting to occur. Maybe even a general topic for the meeting. Sessions learned of the meeting and shut down the meeting before it happened. Later, he said he knew of no communication.

You think that when he later said "no communication", but in fact he knew that they agreed to meet, but the meeting never happened, that's perjury? Good luck trying to win that case.
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I thought Papadopolous had been in communication for some time beforehand - not just a one off.

I agree that it is unlikely that sessions will face perjury charges, though.


Separately to this, we also have the Kushner/Don Jr meeting, for which there is good email evidence of intent. Admittedly that doesn't affect Sessions,
 
jimbob said:
I thought Papadopolous had been in communication for some time beforehand - not just a one off.

I agree that it is unlikely that sessions will face perjury charges, though.


Separately to this, we also have the Kushner/Don Jr meeting, for which there is good email evidence of intent. Admittedly that doesn't affect Sessions,
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They already allowed Sessions to revise his testimony about Russian contacts already because he failed to disclose meetings. We've got another incident that he failed to disclose again.
 
Meadmaker said:
If that's all there is, it's wishful thinking to expect a perjury conviction.

If the article is to be believed, then someone tried to set up a meeting to discuss something. In doing so, we can assume that they communicated a time and place for the meeting to occur. Maybe even a general topic for the meeting. Sessions learned of the meeting and shut down the meeting before it happened. Later, he said he knew of no communication.

You think that when he later said "no communication", but in fact he knew that they agreed to meet, but the meeting never happened, that's perjury? Good luck trying to win that case.
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Loosely paraphrased from Twitter:

This opening isn't even foreplay from Mueller. This is just letting you know you have a dinner date.

Game on.
 
Meadmaker said:
If that's all there is, it's wishful thinking to expect a perjury conviction.


If the article is to be believed, then someone tried to set up a meeting to discuss something. In doing so, we can assume that they communicated a time and place for the meeting to occur. Maybe even a general topic for the meeting. Sessions learned of the meeting and shut down the meeting before it happened. Later, he said he knew of no communication.

You think that when he later said "no communication", but in fact he knew that they agreed to meet, but the meeting never happened, that's perjury? Good luck trying to win that case.
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Sort of like saying "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."
 
plague311 said:
Real soon? Buddy, it's happening as we speak. We've seen the beginning now.
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Oh, I agree. But I was thinking especially of whats to come for Trump's kids and their spouses. Except Tiffany, whose mom showed good sense distancing herself and her daughter from that abomination.
 
ferd burfle said:
Oh, I agree. But I was thinking especially of whats to come for Trump's kids and their spouses. Except Tiffany, whose mom showed good sense distancing herself and her daughter from that abomination.
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I didn't interpret your post correctly, my fault.
 
ferd burfle said:
Oh, I agree. But I was thinking especially of whats to come for Trump's kids and their spouses. Except Tiffany, whose mom showed good sense distancing herself and her daughter from that abomination.
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To wit:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/the-west-wing-trump-is-apoplectic-as-allies-fear-impeachment

After Monday’s indictments, the president blamed Jared Kushner in a call to Steve Bannon, while others are urging him to take off the gloves with Robert Mueller.
...
 
TheL8Elvis said:
To wit:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/the-west-wing-trump-is-apoplectic-as-allies-fear-impeachment

After Monday’s indictments, the president blamed Jared Kushner in a call to Steve Bannon, while others are urging him to take off the gloves with Robert Mueller.
...
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A leaky administration is an unhappy administration.

From that link:

According to two sources, Trump has complained to advisers about his legal team for letting the Mueller probe progress this far. Speaking to Steve Bannon on Tuesday, Trump blamed Jared Kushner for his role in decisions, specifically the firings of Mike Flynn and James Comey, that led to Mueller’s appointment, according to a source briefed on the call. When Roger Stone recently told Trump that Kushner was giving him bad political advice, Trump agreed, according to someone familiar with the conversation. “Jared is the worst political adviser in the White House in modern history,” Nunberg said. “I’m only saying publicly what everyone says behind the scenes at Fox News, in conservative media, and the Senate and Congress.”
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If Trump is starting to blame Kushner, then it really might be popcorn time.
 
jimbob said:
I thought Papadopolous had been in communication for some time beforehand - not just a one off.

I agree that it is unlikely that sessions will face perjury charges, though.


Separately to this, we also have the Kushner/Don Jr meeting, for which there is good email evidence of intent. Admittedly that doesn't affect Sessions,
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There may be more to come in the future, and I was just going by the single message I quoted.


We're far from over on the investigation. I still trust Mueller to follow this wherever it leads. It's just a little early to be sure that he's got the goods on any of the big fish. There are some hints available, but we'll have to stay tuned to see if he's got anything worthwhile on anyone worthwhile.
 
quadraginta said:
But. but ... he has the BEST memory. He said so himself, so it must be true!!!

(Maybe he doesn't remember that.)
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I think there is literally no topic of his own actions that trump hasn't commented on ...

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...recall-claim-of-having-worlds-greatest-memory

A lawyer questioning Trump in the case on behalf of the plaintiffs, Jason Forge, peppered the presumptive GOP presidential nominee with questions about his claims and actions surrounding the case.

At one point, he told Trump that the businessman had stated he had "one of the best memories in the world," according to a transcript that includes hundreds of pages of testimony.
"I don't know. Did I use that expression?" Trump asked. When told he had used the phrase, the billionaire asked to see evidence that he had said it, being told there was video of his remark.

"Did I say I have a great memory or one of the best in the world?" Trump asked for clarification, to which he was told he'd said he had "one of the best in the world."

"I don't remember saying that. As good as my memory is, I don't remember that, but I have a good memory," Trump responded.
"So you don't remember saying that you have one of the best memories in the world?" Forge asked.

"I don't remember that. I remember you telling me, but I don't know that I said it," Trump continued.

He stood by another expression that he had "one of the all-time great memories."

Trump's remarks came in a deposition on Dec. 10, according to the court documents.
 
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TheL8Elvis said:
I think there is literally that trump hasn't commented on ...

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...recall-claim-of-having-worlds-greatest-memory

A lawyer questioning Trump in the case on behalf of the plaintiffs, Jason Forge, peppered the presumptive GOP presidential nominee with questions about his claims and actions surrounding the case.

At one point, he told Trump that the businessman had stated he had "one of the best memories in the world," according to a transcript that includes hundreds of pages of testimony.
"I don't know. Did I use that expression?" Trump asked. When told he had used the phrase, the billionaire asked to see evidence that he had said it, being told there was video of his remark.

"Did I say I have a great memory or one of the best in the world?" Trump asked for clarification, to which he was told he'd said he had "one of the best in the world."

"I don't remember saying that. As good as my memory is, I don't remember that, but I have a good memory," Trump responded.
"So you don't remember saying that you have one of the best memories in the world?" Forge asked.

"I don't remember that. I remember you telling me, but I don't know that I said it," Trump continued.

He stood by another expression that he had "one of the all-time great memories."

Trump's remarks came in a deposition on Dec. 10, according to the court documents.
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You couldn't make this stuff up.
 
Meadmaker said:
I have found myself wondering these many months just what the Russians were up to, and I thought that that was worth investigating. Why are they concerned?

It's all starting to make sense now. And while I do not know if the Russian involvement is actually responsible, in part, for the sorry state of hyperpartisanship that infects America at the moment, they are certainly happy with the result.
Click to expand...


I wouldn't blame Russia for the level of partisanship in the U.S., but the reason for Russia's influence seems clear: money and specifically the Magnitsky Act. Russians identified by this act can't launder their stolen money in the international market. Follow the money; which Mueller is no doubt doing.
 
Quick summary of Seth Abramson's twitter updates, for those who can't read it: Sam Clovis in the crosshairs, said to be a "cooperating witness," withdrew from nomination for USDA, put together the "National Security" committee, incl. Page and Papadopolous.

Next up and first primary target: Sessions, who ran said committee. Sessions last spotted holding emergency meetings with Trump.

[ETA] Sessions also met with Kislyak at least three times that we know of, with the topic of dropping Russia sanctions, and all of these with Trump team *knowing* about the hacked emails.
 
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Beelzebuddy said:
Quick summary of Seth Abramson's twitter updates, for those who can't read it: Sam Clovis in the crosshairs, said to be a "cooperating witness," withdrew from nomination for USDA, put together the "National Security" committee, incl. Page and Papadopolous.

Next up and first primary target: Sessions, who ran said committee. Sessions last spotted holding emergency meetings with Trump.
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Yes. After finding and posting a couple of his threads a couple of days ago, I have to confess that I've been following his twitter feed. It's definitely compelling. This post sought to discredit him, but he's actually answered the two main criticisms.

That he's never worked as a prosecutor

(For those just joining the feed, I'm a trained criminal investigator and represented 2,000+ defendants as a criminal defense attorney.)
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I would say that working as a defence lawyer is likely to make you as au fait with the way prosecutors build a case just as much as working as a prosecutor would.

That he is a conspiracy theorist

There's no conspiracy THEORY here; I'm simply pointing out what any criminal investigator or attorney would say about conspiracy CHARGES.
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You'll always have journos with no legal background who see in these facts a "conspiracy theory"—but this is Criminal Investigation 101.
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I'm still inclined to believe that he knows what he's talking about.
 
Brainster said:
Yes, he speaks quite authoritatively about what prosecutors do, the procedures they follow, etc. Must be stuff he picked up from law school, as he has never worked as a prosecutor (he's currently an assistant professor of English). Abramson has been mentioned recently in both the Atlantic and the New Republic. From the former:



And TNR:
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Squeegee Beckenheim sent me here. Take that, Brainster!
 
TheL8Elvis said:
I think there is literally no topic of his own actions that trump hasn't commented on ...

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...recall-claim-of-having-worlds-greatest-memory

A lawyer questioning Trump in the case on behalf of the plaintiffs, Jason Forge, peppered the presumptive GOP presidential nominee with questions about his claims and actions surrounding the case.

At one point, he told Trump that the businessman had stated he had "one of the best memories in the world," according to a transcript that includes hundreds of pages of testimony.
"I don't know. Did I use that expression?" Trump asked. When told he had used the phrase, the billionaire asked to see evidence that he had said it, being told there was video of his remark.

"Did I say I have a great memory or one of the best in the world?" Trump asked for clarification, to which he was told he'd said he had "one of the best in the world."

"I don't remember saying that. As good as my memory is, I don't remember that, but I have a good memory," Trump responded.
"So you don't remember saying that you have one of the best memories in the world?" Forge asked.

"I don't remember that. I remember you telling me, but I don't know that I said it," Trump continued.

He stood by another expression that he had "one of the all-time great memories."

Trump's remarks came in a deposition on Dec. 10, according to the court documents.
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It isn't even about politics anymore.
It is about the sheer stupidity and the farce this administration is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHmskwqCCQ
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
Yes. After finding and posting a couple of his threads a couple of days ago, I have to confess that I've been following his twitter feed. It's definitely compelling. This post sought to discredit him, but he's actually answered the two main criticisms.

That he's never worked as a prosecutor



I would say that working as a defence lawyer is likely to make you as au fait with the way prosecutors build a case just as much as working as a prosecutor would.

That he is a conspiracy theorist

I'm still inclined to believe that he knows what he's talking about.
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Confirmation bias afflicts us all.

He worked in the public defender's office. For how long I am not sure. His Wikipedia page says he got out of Harvard Law in 2001, but he also had stints at the Iowa Writer's Workshop in 2009 and his doctoral work from 2010-2016, plus he was apparently on Air America radio at some point. Let's say he had 10 years as a public defender. That means 200 cases a year, and probably most of them were low-level offenses committed by people who couldn't afford a lawyer. I'm guessing the majority of his cases were DUIs.

In other words, nothing like this investigation.
 
Brainster said:
Confirmation bias afflicts us all.

He worked in the public defender's office. For how long I am not sure. His Wikipedia page says he got out of Harvard Law in 2001, but he also had stints at the Iowa Writer's Workshop in 2009 and his doctoral work from 2010-2016, plus he was apparently on Air America radio at some point. Let's say he had 10 years as a public defender. That means 200 cases a year, and probably most of them were low-level offenses committed by people who couldn't afford a lawyer. I'm guessing the majority of his cases were DUIs.

In other words, nothing like this investigation.
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When I first read his feed a couple of days ago and he was saying Clovis was the next target, I was like "Clovis who?" Yet, Clovis.

So long as his posts are informative and correct, he could be a long-haul trucker tweeting with one hand on the wheel for all I care.
 
Beelzebuddy said:
When I first read his feed a couple of days ago and he was saying Clovis was the next target, I was like "Clovis who?" Yet, Clovis.

So long as his posts are informative and correct, he could be a long-haul trucker tweeting with one hand on the wheel for all I care.
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He does seem to be pretty accurate, as some of his tweets have referred back to things he said weeks or months ago which are now coming to pass.

And, even if his analysis is off (which I've yet to see, but have to concede the possibility of), you certainly can't argue with his feed as a source collating relevant information. He's not only posting disparate American news stories and showing how they tie in to each other and to historical statements from the relevant players, but even going so far as to post news stories from other countries and showing how the various narratives being pushed are different.

It's interesting, informative stuff, even if he ultimately turns out to be wrong.
 
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My take on Seth Abramson:

  • He has some relevant background - but only some
  • He has obviously done his homework, for quite some time
  • He reasons convincingly
  • He necessarily speculates some
  • So take it with a decent measure of salt and not as gospel
Occasionally he does add a touch of CTish feel, and so I try to keep my BS-o-meter handy when I think I smell the faintly unhandsome smell of woo.
 
jimbob said:
A leaky administration is an unhappy administration.
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It's Trump's own fault that his administration leaks. He encourages infighting in his staff. What he fails to comprehend is that when you in-fight in Washington the weapon is the leak and the ammunition is inside information. Not sure how you in-fight in New York real estate but he clearly doesn't understand how it's done in Washington DC.
 
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