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Old 11th November 2017, 10:20 AM   #441
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The discussion centered on public schools, no? It's pretty well known there are entire seminaries devoted to studying various scriptures; that's not the issue at hand. University classes (I took one of those) is not the issue at hand. And, to repeat myself, there's no such thing as "the" bible - there are hundreds. So we can sidestep your special pleading & try to focus on the broader aspects of the matter. Despite your implied sense of personal affront & challenge to your sanctimonious pieties, this discussion is not about you or your blinkered view of what is and what is not scripture.
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Old 11th November 2017, 10:30 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
and as i have already explained, neither of those opinions are actual arguments why the Holy Bible should not be taught in school, because I have explained schools frequently teach things involving the observationally undetectable (indeed a Catholic school posited the big bang LONG before it was detectable) and history that involves flawed protaganists's allegedly absurd and cruel behavior (the Reverend Martin Luther King comes to mind) .

But you consider your opinions, no matter how wrong, as facts, and we see that.
Your attempted rebuttal is a non-sequitur.

It does not follow logically that, since some school jumped the gun on the big bang and the historically verified life of Martin Luther King has been taught in schools, therefore the absurdity of ancient goatherder stories is not an argument against teaching said absurd ancient goatherder stories as fact or theory.

My observation-based argument is not difficult to comprehend or verify (if one can read and think): the biblical god is either not real, or he is real but his thought processes are absurd and cruel. It is extremely unlikely that a being capable of engineering a universe and all the life therein would exhibit the thought processes of a deranged ancient goatherder.
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Old 11th November 2017, 10:37 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I am certain that we can make time for the bible
That's ok, the majority of children will grow up to realize how much worthless ******** religion is. Of course, a small fraction of them will not be intelligent enough to see behind the gibberish about skydaddy.
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Old 11th November 2017, 10:43 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Your attempted rebuttal is a non-sequitur.

It does not follow logically that, since some school jumped the gun on the big bang and the historically verified life of Martin Luther King has been taught in schools, therefore the absurdity of ancient goatherder stories is not an argument against teaching said absurd ancient goatherder stories as facts.
Jumped. the. gun. Oh my stars....

It would appear that as part of our exercise we have dismissed your second "argument" to wit: "or the biblical god is real but, (in addition to being undetectable by means of observation) behaves irrationally and cruelly almost beyond description."

Now we are left with the first opinion only, that God is fictional, which as I have quite patiently explained is not only an opinion, it is no basis why one should not teach it in school (except perhaps in dystopia like Fahrenheit 451 type of world) and indeed we now see that teaching it is necessary because advances in detection would enable us to confirm the existence of the Almighty to unbelievers, much like other Catholic ideas such as the Big Bang.
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Old 11th November 2017, 10:45 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by StackOverflow View Post
That's ok, the majority of children will grow up to realize how much worthless ******** religion is. Of course, a small fraction of them will not be intelligent enough to see behind the gibberish about skydaddy.
Say anything can happen! Because if it is one thing that children REALLY respond well to it is being patronized by fanatics who use insipid terms like "skydaddy."
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Old 11th November 2017, 10:47 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Say anything can happen! Because if it is one thing that children REALLY respond well to it is being patronized by fanatics who use insipid terms like "skydaddy."
You mean like being patronized by fanatics who believe that skydaddy actually exists?
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Old 11th November 2017, 11:17 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by StackOverflow View Post
You mean like being patronized by fanatics who believe that skydaddy actually exists?
Oh mercy! That is a hoot!

An old fashioned “no, you!” while repeating “skydaddy” in the very same sentence!

Man, that is beautiful.
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Old 11th November 2017, 11:38 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It would appear that as part of our exercise we have dismissed your second "argument" to wit: "or the biblical god is real but, (in addition to being undetectable by means of observation) behaves irrationally and cruelly almost beyond description."
I have no idea what The Imperial We may have imagined has occurred. I do know that I haven't dismissed my argument. OTC, I doubled down on it:

Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
My observation-based argument is not difficult to comprehend or verify (if one can read and think): the biblical god is either not real, or he is real but his thought processes are absurd and cruel. It is extremely unlikely that a being capable of engineering a universe and all the life therein would exhibit the thought processes of a deranged ancient goatherder.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Now we are left with the first opinion only, that God is fictional, which as I have quite patiently explained is not only an opinion, it is no basis why one should not teach it in school (except perhaps in dystopia like Fahrenheit 451 type of world)...
That god is fictional is one of the possibilities. The other possibility is that he is real but thinks like a deranged ancient goatherder. But the second possibility is extremely unlikely, given the alleged abilities of the alleged god.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
... and indeed we now see that teaching it is necessary because advances in detection would enable us to confirm the existence of the Almighty to unbelievers, much like other Catholic ideas such as the Big Bang.
...and indeed now we see that, by your form of "logic", we should teach that the biblical god does not exist, on the assumption that science will one day unambiguously confirm it's nonexistence.

Your "logic" defeats itself.
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Old 11th November 2017, 11:46 AM   #449
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the Royal we is us.

As far as your belief that we should have prohibited teaching about the theory of the Big Bang I am quite comfortable stating that We disagree.
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Old 11th November 2017, 11:49 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
the Royal we is us.

As far as your belief that we should have prohibited teaching about the theory of the Big Bang I am quite comfortable stating that We disagree.
Brazen strawman.
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Old 11th November 2017, 11:53 AM   #451
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Well, puppykins, "sky-daddy" seems to set you off even more quickly (and even more irrationally) than any factual comments questioning your particular views on your particular choices in scriptures. Oh, my! Oh, dear! Mercy sakes! Those goal posts really do run off the rails at every turn, don't they?
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Old 11th November 2017, 11:59 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
the Royal we is us.
The preferred phrase is "editorial we."
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Old 11th November 2017, 12:20 PM   #453
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
...God is fictional, which as I have quite patiently explained is not only an opinion.....
No. It doesn't matter how patiently you have explained anything. It is a fact that there is no god (in fact, there exist no gods of any kind) unless you, or someone, can provide scientific observations or evidence of its, or their, existence.

Also, claiming that your god by its very nature, cannot be proved observationally is a cop out. In doing so, you are resorting to the "fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage" argument.
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Old 11th November 2017, 12:35 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
Well, puppykins, "sky-daddy" seems to set you off even more quickly (and even more irrationally) than any factual comments questioning your particular views on your particular choices in scriptures. Oh, my! Oh, dear! Mercy sakes! Those goal posts really do run off the rails at every turn, don't they?
Puppykins? In any event, I do believe that a quick perusal of the thread will demonstrate that I have been quite consistent in attempting to elevate the level of discourse beyond that represented by the oaf in the video linked in the op. I understand that it may be a Sisyphean task, but we persevere.
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Old 11th November 2017, 12:38 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No. It doesn't matter how patiently you have explained anything. It is a fact that there is no god (in fact, there exist no gods of any kind) unless you, or someone, can provide scientific observations or evidence of its, or their, existence.

Also, claiming that your god by its very nature, cannot be proved observationally is a cop out. In doing so, you are resorting to the "fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage" argument.
And thus endeth the Lesson, Ramen. Now let us turn to the Atheist Hymnal, and sing today's verse: We worship you Oh Mammon, page 253, selection 4,
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Old 11th November 2017, 12:58 PM   #456
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I thought we just agreed that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

which, fantastic! That was as I have already said my ultimate conclusion.

This nonsense about the word and God qualifies as one of Daniel Dennett's "deepities". Perhaps it deserves the title of the ultimate deepity.
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Old 11th November 2017, 02:05 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
And thus endeth the Lesson, Ramen. Now let us turn to the Atheist Hymnal, and sing today's verse: We worship you Oh Mammon, page 253, selection 4,
Nah. Let us not turn to some hogwash about worshipping some invisible psychopath deity. That's what Christians do.

Let us instead watch football.
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Old 11th November 2017, 02:12 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Nah. Let us not turn to some hogwash about worshipping some invisible psychopath deity. That's what Christians do.

Let us instead watch football.
Will popcorn be available?

Hans
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Old 11th November 2017, 02:16 PM   #459
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Nah. Let us not turn to some hogwash about worshipping some invisible psychopath deity. That's what Christians do.

Let us instead watch football.
Things we learn today:some people do not know what mammon means.

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Old 11th November 2017, 02:32 PM   #460
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Things we learn today:some people do not know what mammon means.

Hooboy

Mammon refers to the worship of wealth I think.

The RCC comes to mind.
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Old 11th November 2017, 03:06 PM   #461
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Will popcorn be available?

Hans
Only for the repentant. The unforgiven shall be given pork rinds.
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Old 11th November 2017, 03:09 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
And thus endeth the Lesson, Ramen. Now let us turn to the Atheist Hymnal, and sing today's verse: We worship you Oh Mammon, page 253, selection 4,
"Oh" is grammatically incorrect in that context. You have used it as poetic apostrophe immediately preceding the name of or pronoun representing the person being formally addressed. It should be "O"....

"We worship you O Mammon"

You might consider yourself to be the foremost expert on the "Rule of So", but I am the master when it cometh to the "Rule of O"!!
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Old 11th November 2017, 03:14 PM   #463
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
"Oh" is grammatically incorrect in that context. You have used it as poetic apostrophe immediately preceding the name of or pronoun representing the person being formally addressed. It should be "O"....

"We worship you O Mammon"

You might consider yourself to be the foremost expert on the "Rule of So", but I am the master when it cometh to the "Rule of O"!!
O’Vey
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Old 11th November 2017, 09:02 PM   #464
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
... but we persevere.
Again with the "we" nonsense. A likely translation is "We're [I'm] pushing soup uphill with a fork." (Recall the Sysiphian reference above?)
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Old 11th November 2017, 09:05 PM   #465
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Now let us [me] turn to the Atheist Hymnal...
And YOU claim YOU'RE trying to elevate discourse in this thread? Oh, mercy me! Land Sakes! Sigh . . . . .
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Old 11th November 2017, 09:24 PM   #466
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
O’Vey
Planning to convert / deconvert? Or simply move the goalposts* one more time? If an attempt simply to deflect** (one of your favorite moves), it's a waste of time & bandwidth but a continuing source of mild amusement.

Since it's been established (supra) you're #1 in a field of one which nobody else has the least interest in joining, just shut yer trap. You've shown in this thread and many others that you wish to add nothing better than turmoil, obfuscation, deflections and canonically correct nonsense. Along with vaudevillian clutching of pearls. Your self-appointed, sanctimonious, supercilious sainthood buys no dispensations here.

*,** Noted in many threads over time.
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Old 11th November 2017, 09:27 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Hooboy
Yet another attempt to "elevate" the discourse in this thread. NOT!

Edited to eliminate superfluous wording.

Last edited by Peregrinus; 11th November 2017 at 09:29 PM.
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Old 12th November 2017, 08:40 AM   #468
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
Since it's been established (supra) you're #1 in a field of one which nobody else has the least interest in joining, just shut yer trap. You've shown in this thread and many others that you wish to add nothing better than turmoil, obfuscation, deflections and canonically correct nonsense. Along with vaudevillian clutching of pearls. Your self-appointed, sanctimonious, supercilious sainthood buys no dispensations here.
Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
Yet another attempt to "elevate" the discourse in this thread. NOT!
Hey Team TBD: Hide your Team TBD Brand Irony Meters !
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Old 12th November 2017, 05:30 PM   #469
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Why would anyone want to concede something as nonsensical as that? God is a word? OK I concede that "God" is a word, so is "wobble", but the rest of it is gibberish.

I think the bible should be treated like any other influential work of literature in school. Like Shakespeare, or Dickens, or Homer it contains some beautiful writing, it also contains ideas and morality which reflect the times in which it was written. I think it can be a very useful tool for teaching subjects like History, Philosophy and comparative religion, but teaching it as something to be accepted as fact would be a mistake.

The bible is not a science text. Its authors were poets and hagiographers, not Historians or Scientists. Imagine if schools tried teaching Geography based on the bible, or Economics, or Civics, that would be ridiculous in the 21st century. Teach a room full of American teens that they have to pay taxes to the Roman Emperor, or that all rulers are appointed by God (Romans 13: 1-4) and see how far you get.

By all means teach them about the Babylonian influences in the OT or the political climate in 1st century Roman Palestine, but please don't try to teach that ancient Hebrew Mystics knew the true nature of the universe through "visions" or "Divine Revelation". That would be silly.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Hey Team TBD: Hide your Team TBD Brand Irony Meters !
Hey TBD, given your concern for raising the tone in this thread I wonder if you might care to comment on the above post. You must have missed it in all the rush...
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Old 12th November 2017, 05:33 PM   #470
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Hey TBD, given your concern for raising the tone in this thread I wonder if you might care to comment on the above post. You must have missed it in all the rush...
yeah, it is *********** awesome!
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Old 12th November 2017, 06:00 PM   #471
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
yeah, it is *********** awesome!
I'm glad you agree that teaching religious dogma in schools is a bad idea.
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Old 13th November 2017, 12:00 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Now we are left with the first opinion only, that God is fictional, which as I have quite patiently explained is not only an opinion, it is no basis why one should not teach it in school (except perhaps in dystopia like Fahrenheit 451 type of world) and indeed we now see that teaching it is necessary because advances in detection would enable us to confirm the existence of the Almighty to unbelievers, much like other Catholic ideas such as the Big Bang.
I have done some objections to your opinions about what is God and what is detectable or imaginary. I have not read your answers. Are you overlooking them because you cannot answer?

Do you like when people agree with you? I like making people happy. You will be happy: I agree with you. It is useful to study the story of God in the same way that it is useful to study the story of Captain Ahab that you mentioned before: as a fictional being invented by men. Only a difference: Ahab is a declared fictional being create for men's pleasure. God is afictional being created to cheat men. A little difference that must also be explained in schools.
Of course, God is not a scientific hypothesis like superstring theory. This has been elaborated by means of a scientific apparatus as a mathematical probability that can be empirically confirmed later. How can God be empirically confirmed? No way. This is why the atheist says that God doesn't exist. This is not a dogma. This is a consequence of applying the tools of rationality. We must also teach this in schools.

I hope this comment will deserve your gracious attention. Thank you.

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Old 13th November 2017, 01:40 AM   #473
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I have done some objections to your opinions about what is God and what is detectable or imaginary. I have not read your answers. Are you overlooking them because you cannot answer?
That is standard practice for the God Squad.
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Old 13th November 2017, 07:18 AM   #474
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
... a consequence of applying the tools of rationality. We must also teach this in schools.
Critical thinking is sadly lacking* in many segments of our culture, not only in the schools and religious institutions but in general practice.

*Totally lacking in politics.
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Old 14th November 2017, 04:40 PM   #475
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Mod InfoThis thread has been set to moderated status pending cleanup of the last few pages.
Posted By:TubbaBlubba
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Old 15th November 2017, 03:50 PM   #476
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Mod WarningThank you for your patience. The thread is not now back in un-moderated status. Please address the topic and not attack each other.
Posted By:jsfisher
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Old 15th November 2017, 03:59 PM   #477
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
Mod WarningThank you for your patience. The thread is not back in un-moderated status. Please address the topic and not attack each other.
Posted By:jsfisher
Not back in un-moderated status? That means moderated??
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Old Yesterday, 04:28 PM   #478
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I have done some objections to your opinions about what is God and what is detectable or imaginary. I have not read your answers. Are you overlooking them because you cannot answer?

Do you like when people agree with you? I like making people happy. You will be happy: I agree with you. It is useful to study the story of God in the same way that it is useful to study the story of Captain Ahab that you mentioned before: as a fictional being invented by men. Only a difference: Ahab is a declared fictional being create for men's pleasure. God is afictional being created to cheat men. A little difference that must also be explained in schools.
Of course, God is not a scientific hypothesis like superstring theory. This has been elaborated by means of a scientific apparatus as a mathematical probability that can be empirically confirmed later. How can God be empirically confirmed? No way. This is why the atheist says that God doesn't exist. This is not a dogma. This is a consequence of applying the tools of rationality. We must also teach this in schools.

I hope this comment will deserve your gracious attention. Thank you.

The Big Dog remains silent.

The empirical confirmation of God's existence is possible if He would just give us some "Praise Jesus" miracles today.

Go back a few years and these miracles were almost commonplace. We have accounts of levitating monks in the past, with no less than 200 Saints reported as having mastered the knack of it. One of the most famous and recent was St. Joseph of Cupertino, only 400 years ago, who used to fly down the road to get lunch for himself and his fellow monks. Would be a hazard to air traffic today I suppose.

Perhaps The Big Dog, as a Catholic, can help us out here. The Catholic Church is constantly on the lookout for miracles because they need one for every person beatified (getting the title “Blessed”) and two for every canonisation (making a Saint). Given that many saints have been made in recent times, (John Paul II canonised 482 and beatified 1,338 during his 27 years as pontiff.), one would think The Big Dog could give us a few examples. We can skip the miraculous cure, and bleeding statue type ones, as they are a bit dodgy.
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Old Today, 12:28 AM   #479
David Mo
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The Big Dog remains silent.

(...)

Perhaps The Big Dog, as a Catholic, can help us out here. The Catholic Church is constantly on the lookout for miracles because they need one for every person beatified (getting the title “Blessed”) and two for every canonisation (making a Saint). Given that many saints have been made in recent times, (John Paul II canonised 482 and beatified 1,338 during his 27 years as pontiff.), one would think The Big Dog could give us a few examples. We can skip the miraculous cure, and bleeding statue type ones, as they are a bit dodgy.
I had assumed that Mr. Big Dog would be silent. Too complicated questions for him. He pretends to be ironic or mocking in a "twiter" style but never goes further.
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