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6th December 2017, 12:33 PM | #41 |
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When it comes to Israel/Palestine, there is no It's-pretty-obvious-if-you-think-about-it solution to be had.
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6th December 2017, 12:44 PM | #42 |
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6th December 2017, 12:54 PM | #43 |
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That's one step up from Golda Meir who denied Palestinians existed at all.
It's sort-of like Northern Ireland but then different. I think there's one pretty easy solution for Jerusalem, though. Nuke the place. Turn |
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6th December 2017, 01:11 PM | #44 |
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How many are going to die because of this decision? I think it's pretty good odds that someone bombs something and declares it's revenge for this move.
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6th December 2017, 01:19 PM | #45 |
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It certainly makes the US more of a target. I wouldn't be surprised if this puts US citizens in the region in the cross hairs of radicals.
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6th December 2017, 01:27 PM | #46 |
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Classic Trump. He does basically nothing, makes news and people freak out. This magnificent embassy will be built out of the same material as our giant Southern border wall.
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6th December 2017, 01:30 PM | #47 |
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6th December 2017, 01:36 PM | #48 |
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6th December 2017, 01:41 PM | #49 |
I would save the receptionist.
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First of all, Tel Aviv is not the capital of Israel. According to Israel itself, Jerusalem is the capital. Second of all, pretending the capital is Tel Aviv is stupid. When a diplomat has to interact with the Israeli government, he/she goes to Jerusalem. The Knesset is in Jerusalem. The President and Prime Minister are in Jerusalem. Imagine the outrage if every country in Europe refused to recognize Washington as the capital of the US and moved all their embassies to Newark, New Jersey. I do agree that recognizing Jerusalem may inflame Palestinian passions, may lead to violence and may set the peace process back. I also agree that it's a political act aimed at a small contingent of wealthy, orthodox Republican donors and some end-of-days Christians. But, as a talking head on CNN said today, refusing to recognize Jerusalem hasn't really led to peace in the last 50 years; recognizing basic reality probably won't disturb that lack of progress at all. |
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6th December 2017, 01:53 PM | #50 |
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No, I get that, I totally do. And my knowledge of history is woefully incomplete. But there wasn't much in Palestine to begin with, and Jews, fresh from the Holocaust, were determined to build a nation. (I don't know how determined they were to build it in Palestine, however). And this situation evolved into a multi-generational injustice - a tragedy - I agree. But it sometimes seems that Arabs in the region are their own worst enemies. Their uprisings ended up in more dead Palestinians and expanded Israeli territory. Coming from Europe, Zionists had some knowledge of how to organize, create a state, build infrastructure and affect public opinion. And they were very motivated. The Palestinian Arabs weren't stupid; they just did not have a lot of experience in organizing. And frankly, the existence of dispossessed Palestinian Arabs was a giant boon to the political fortunes of some Muslim leaders who used it to unite factions that otherwise hated each other. Sworn enemies needed those camps. And Trump has given them a huge gift.
You might be right, but that's a pretty big leap. There are Israelis against settlements; there is public opinion in the rest of the world; the Trump administration is not necessarily permanent. Has the whole of Jerusalem ever been considered Israeli territory in the international community? I don't think all is lost. If official recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital plays a role in the end-times fantasies of religious nuts? That's my biggest worry, because they are crazy and very well financed. And not just the Christian nuts, either. I'll be watching events, queasily. |
6th December 2017, 01:58 PM | #51 |
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Today was a very tense day. Everyone was very worried/scared/stressed about what Trump was going to say.
We had to wait until 8pm (Israel time) for Trump's live speech. The wait was nerve wracking. All my co-workers and friends said the same thing. Leave the U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv! We do NOT need more chaos and bloodshed in the region. We became more stressed as the wait wore on. Finally, to ease the tension we all said that Trump must be bluffing/putting on a show for his base, and that his announcement would be vague meaningless words that would change nothing, so we could then relax and forget about it. Still, about 20 of us gathered after work to wait for the statement. After Trump made his statement we were all stunned. We walked out of the room and no one said a word. That NEVER happens with Israelis. We always have something to say. But we were too shocked. We could not believe what he had said. But we know the chaos that he has now caused across the region. I feel sick to my core. It is almost 11 pm and I have get up at 4am for work. Thank you to those in this thread who are civil. The rest of you can continue talking about "nuking Jerusalem", not caring about how many deaths that would cause, it just makes you "feel better" to write it. For some sick reasons. You can also talk about your "expert knowledge" about Israel even though you have never lived here. Some of my friends will die in the next days or weeks. It could be me. (I have no family left. None. They are all dead). People will die, all because of Trump's decision----which we did not want. |
6th December 2017, 01:59 PM | #52 |
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6th December 2017, 02:04 PM | #53 |
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Zivan, what do you think of the official Israeli government position that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel?
Would you say you put more value in the opinion of the international community than in the resolutions of your own democratically-elected government? Do you attribute any deaths to your government's position on Jerusalem? How many more deaths do you think will be caused by Trump's recognition of your government's position, beyond the deaths that were going to be caused anyway by your own government? Do you attribute any deaths by the hands of Palestinian militants over Israeli policy to the Palestinian militants themselves? |
6th December 2017, 02:05 PM | #54 |
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Well they happened to be living in the land god gave to the jews that was their mistake after all. That is why taking it by force was the only logical option.
Quote:
You would certainly happily give up all your land and your home to anyone who asked right? |
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6th December 2017, 02:07 PM | #55 |
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6th December 2017, 02:07 PM | #56 |
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These advisers of Trump themselves seem to be kind of religious nuts. Kushner is very small-lipped in public, but isn't he a Lubavitcher? And Greenblatt and Friedman are apparently on record (I'll have to backcheck this) as being proponents of "Greater Israel", which in its full demand means they want the land between the Nile and Euphrates as God promised. This can only be reached by war of course. Interesting op-ed by David Hearst:
Originally Posted by Middle East Eye
Superbrats, I like that. But what would happen in a case of war? The first thing to go up in flames are their palaces and glass towers at the southern bank of the Persian gulf. And even with the (unlikely) support of US bleeding hearts on the ground, with a coalition of spoiled inbreds against the three regional 80 million nations with real armies - Iran, Turkey and Egypt, well, - let's hope cooler heads will prevail. |
6th December 2017, 02:08 PM | #57 |
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On the other hand this does raise the odds of Trumps signature war being in the middle east instead of Korea. Though both doesn't seem unlikely.
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6th December 2017, 02:09 PM | #58 |
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6th December 2017, 02:09 PM | #59 |
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Obviously, since I don't live in the region, my stake is not nearly as high as yours. But I too feel sick about the possibilities, so know that Israelis of your stripe aren't alone in your anxiety.
But are there other Israelis who think this is great? Who would prevail politically in Israel at this time? If precedence holds, plenty of them will be Palestinians. |
6th December 2017, 02:10 PM | #60 |
I would save the receptionist.
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I doubt it. Syria, Lebanon and Egypt don't have all that much oil money. Also, there's the inescapable fact that Israel needs the Palestinian territories for defensive purposes. The Golan Heights are, um, high. They're hills looking down on the rest of Israel. Handing over the high ground would be tactically insane. Still, I agree with your general point. Arab nations have happily sent arms and armor to the Palestinians when they could have used that money for civilian purposes. The reason is hate. It's that simple. |
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6th December 2017, 02:13 PM | #61 |
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6th December 2017, 02:17 PM | #62 |
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6th December 2017, 02:17 PM | #63 |
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There are regular people, being used as pawns in dynamics that they can't control. In the 1960s the dispute was about territory. Territorial disputes can be resolved. Holy wars can't. It has become very convenient for some Arab and other Muslim nations to have this sore festering; it helps hard-liners on both sides. That includes Trump as well. I have sympathy for anyone caught up in that BS.
I hope you're not among the faithful End Times enthusiasts. You bring something to the board. But if that is where you're coming from, it taints any legitimate conservative points you might make. |
6th December 2017, 02:20 PM | #64 |
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6th December 2017, 02:26 PM | #65 |
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Israel is a sovereign nation-state. Jerusalem is their capital - which, as the only sovereign nation-state that controls any part of Jerusalem, is perfectly valid and entirely appropriate.
Now if only the anti-Semitic demagogues in neighboring nation-states (and the anti-Semitic demagogues elsewhere in the world for that matter, including the "Western" world) could be reasoned with. But you can't reason with the unreasonable, sad to say. |
6th December 2017, 02:27 PM | #66 |
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I do not think you understand.... I, and everyone I know are in shock right now. Security has been stepped up. I just told a friend not to go to Jerusalem tomorrow because there may be road blocks and he will not be able to get back to work Sunday morning (work week here is Sun - thurs). We have been told to not be in large groups anyway (difficult in a tiny country). Everyone is in danger. I am numb. And you expect me to get into a political discussion with you? Now???? While you are safe far away, and I am in danger? You seem to have no empathy, or understand the situation on the ground here. Now. |
6th December 2017, 02:37 PM | #67 |
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So you're relying on the rule of so? I personally am not uniformly against negotiating with terrorists, even if I agreed with that description. It's just a form of asymmetrical warfare employed for achieving political goals. At least it used to be; now it seems to be violence for the hell of it. Or an orgasm for end-of-the-world types.
I just wondered if anyone had tried it. Territorial disputes can be resolved. Holy wars can't. How many deaths do you suppose Yasser Arafat caused? And were most of them Israeli or Palestinian? I get that you're angry but I don't cede the moral high ground to anyone in this dispute, except Israelis (and Arabs) committed to peacefully changing Israel's domestic policy re: occupied territories. I can only hope that the rule of unintended consequences kicks in and heads off or at least mitigates the disaster this has the potential to be. Could anything cause Israel to walk back its claim to all of Jerusalem? Are Trump's Saudi pals going to pat him on the back for this? |
6th December 2017, 02:47 PM | #68 |
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** advertisment for the parallel thread in the History subforum where especially ddt does a wonderful job in educating people who don't know much about the general conflict **
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6th December 2017, 02:55 PM | #69 |
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`
T hank you for your kind words. I know (from the news) that that there are some Israelis who bizarrely think this is great. I do not know any personally. I asked my boss today (who is as sick/shocked about this as I am) if he had any friends/family that thought differently than him. He looked at me like he was shocked I would even ask such a thing and said they all think the same as him about it. No one knows what will happen next politically. The Palestinians have already planned "Three days of rage" and to target Israelis (that includes Arab Israelis). Westerners do not seem to care about deaths of Arabs if they are also Israeli citizens. That does not make sense to me. |
6th December 2017, 02:57 PM | #70 |
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They were refugees who saw forming a Jewish state as the only possible means forward. I don't think they were relying on God so much as on statements made by the British government. And some of them probably weren't against alternatives to Palestine.
Then Trump didn't kill it, did he? And Israel has removed some settlers, there's no inherent reason to believe it can't be done. Not really. WaPo: Israeli police begin forced removal of Amona settlers in the West Bank Your imagination may not be the final word in what's possible. You understand what a load of straw this is, right? |
6th December 2017, 03:05 PM | #71 |
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Best thing I would think is you get Netanyahoo out of the way over one of his corruption cases and present a friendlier face to the region. I understand you people are shocked, and thanks for sharing your view with us, but I also think the really important players are wary of what is played here and nobody of them wants war. |
6th December 2017, 03:34 PM | #72 |
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Sovereignty is not a one-way street. It has to be recognized to mean much. The rest of the world does not agree that the sovereign state of Israel includes all of Jerusalem.
The anti-Semitic demagogues would be screwed without their anti-Israel narrative. They need it to exist. For very reasonable reasons. But assuming I'm wrong. How would you go about reasoning with them over the issue of Israel? "Israel has nukes, you don't, shut up?" I don't think that's a solution. "Hitler took their house, so they're taking your house, see? It all works out!" And that includes those Israelis who think that they should occupy as much of the Middle East as they want, because they want it. You think those settlers are being "reasonable"? No, they are being deliberately provocative, and I don't really blame them, but they are dangerous ideologues. They don't have to live in trailers on the West Bank. The situation is a tragedy, born of an earlier tragedy, and of long-fallen empires, and who wins? Hard-liners on both sides. Defense contractors. The individuals getting pieces of the $100B or so Germany has paid in reparations. I'd love to see Jews and Muslims unite to fleece evangelical Christians with tours of so-called holy sites. That would be a reasonable solution, IMO. |
6th December 2017, 03:54 PM | #73 |
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My apologies. That was over the line. That was my cynicism about the endless "peace process" that I don't think I'll see a successful conclusion in my lifetime (nor yours I guess). And the status of Jerusalem is one of the principal stumbling points there. FWIW, I didn't mean casualties with that, just that no-one could get the place.
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6th December 2017, 03:56 PM | #74 |
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Netenyahu would use it to project himself as a new Ezra, and if they brought their capital with them just think what it would do for house prices, a massive boost for the property-owning classes he actually represents.
The Blood and Soil settler movement would adore the idea, so Netenyahu couldn't say a word in opposition to it without going the way of Rabin. |
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6th December 2017, 03:58 PM | #75 |
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That's just a bit of play for the gallery. Amona is an outpost, an "illegal" settlement of only 200 people that's not endorsed by the government. The total number of inhabitants in the settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem is about 800,000.
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6th December 2017, 04:13 PM | #76 |
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The peace process has been a sham after Rabin's murder. He made the mistake of actually seeking peace before total victory, and paid the price.
I see a conflict arising within Israel, between the Blood and Soil movement and the Israelis who pay and occasionally fight for them. Another intifada will not be popular with the latter group, who will lay the blame on Netenyahu. This is a purely symbolic move, of no practical value, creating unknowable risks for Israel and Israelis just when Netenyahu is under the cosh. What a slimeball that man is. A perfect pairing with Trump, of course. |
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6th December 2017, 04:46 PM | #77 |
I would save the receptionist.
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Dude, what? First of all, I said it was one consideration, not the only consideration. Second, has Russia been under constant threat of attack from Crimea for seventy years? Did Crimea invade Russia on the holiest day of the Russian year? False equivalency is false. |
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6th December 2017, 05:08 PM | #78 |
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Do you really believe that a clique of European Jews defended themselves out of Europe and into possession of so much Palestinian land and property, while the aggression has all been Arab? Don't you find that bizarre?
The Balfour Declaration is a century old, and was predicted to cause a century of conflict : that was a rhetorical century, of course, but not inaccurate. And there's no end in sight, because no Israeli leader can declare peace with the nationalist project incomplete, which it is as long as any Arabs remain in the Land. From Dan to Beersheba, as promised. Blood and Soil and God, what a toxic combination, and with Netenyahu involved you can add "and Profit". |
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6th December 2017, 07:39 PM | #79 |
I would save the receptionist.
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What the hell are you talking about? I didn't say anything even remotely like this. I said that Israel's desire to keep the Golan Heights has a tactical component because they've been attacked from that border before. To my knowledge, Israel was not the aggressor in any war ever. In any case, it's historically wrong to say that Jews took possession of Palestinian land. Palestine was an absolute wasteland when both Jews and Arabs starting building a presence at the turn of the 20th century. |
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6th December 2017, 09:32 PM | #80 |
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Please forgive my cynicism, but I think that Trump just trolled the bulk of "the Arab world" which is in fact a fractious bunch of quarreling narcissists, and about 2/3 of the useful idiots who go along with the narrative that holds Israel to be wrong by default simply because the sun comes up. That covers most of Europe, and a variety of noise makers in the UN.
And having trolled them all, he sits back and watches for the reaction. But unlike very talented trolls, he'll not be able to STFU and just watch the fun. He'll twit some silly nonsense in a few days ... Bibi thinks Trump has his back. I think that's about as funny as this joke gets. |
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