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6th December 2017, 09:37 PM | #81 |
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Where's Sirhan Sirhan when you need him?
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7th December 2017, 03:19 AM | #82 |
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7th December 2017, 03:56 AM | #83 |
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Exactly god gave the entire region to the jewish people and they will take it no matter how long the current residents have been living there. It is just like how the trail of tears was a high point in american history, Jackson wouldn't let laws of man or morals stand in the way of getting the land god had given to the american people from the savages. Same thing with taking Jerusalem from the muslims, Israel would never let boarders stand in the way of what is theirs by grace of god.
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7th December 2017, 04:00 AM | #84 |
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It only removed settlers because they were is tactically unsupportable locations, the strategically sound ones are never going anywhere. And there is a difference between forceably relocating 10,000 people from tactically unsound locations and 800,000. We are talking 13% of the total population after all.
But by right of conquest it is theirs and we need to stop this idea that you can't just take what you want. |
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7th December 2017, 04:02 AM | #85 |
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7th December 2017, 04:04 AM | #86 |
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7th December 2017, 06:41 AM | #87 |
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7th December 2017, 06:46 AM | #88 |
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At the same time, if it becomes clear you can't get them on your side, then not pissing them off doesn't accomplish anything.
Who's giving up on the two state solution? Why should this change any negotiations? There never was any proposal where Israel would give up Jerusalem entirely, the only issue of contention is if "Palestine" would have it's capital in East Jerusalem. The bottom line is this really doesn't change anything. The Palestinian side is upset soley because they think allowing Israel to have the capital they want lends legitimacy to the very existence of Israel. |
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7th December 2017, 06:57 AM | #89 |
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7th December 2017, 07:32 AM | #90 |
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^Yes, exactly.
Yes. We (Israelis) consider Jerusalem the capital no matter what anyone says. But we were tense about the embassy move from TLV to Jerusalem because of the violence that is coming from the Palestinian reaction. They plan the "three days of rage" beginning tomorrow (friday). We just do not want more chaos and violence. But there will be anyway. It will be centered in Jerusalem, but we were told this morning to be alert and careful in Tel Aviv too (I am in Tel Aviv now) because violence may break out here too. I am still going to the shuk tomorrow and running errands as usual. We have been through this many times before. We can not just sit home and hide just because the Palestinians are going on a rage. Again. |
7th December 2017, 07:36 AM | #91 |
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7th December 2017, 07:40 AM | #92 |
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7th December 2017, 08:33 AM | #93 |
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7th December 2017, 09:36 AM | #94 |
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Zionists prior to 1947 purchased the lands they built on.
During the Israeli war of independence, Muslim Arabs who fled their lands were not allowed back, and their lands were taken by the state. This also happened to Jewish refugees from areas that were taken by Arab forces. Today Zionists still purchase lands from Arab land-owners. Characterizing this as “taking by force” is at best uninformed, and at worst disinformation motivated by bigotry and a desire to be incendiary. The only obstacle to a two state solution is that there hasn’t been any serious negotiations about it since Arafat walked out of Camp David back in 2001. Abbas keeps coming up with new reasons not to come to the table. Settlements can be moved, or not, lands can be swapped, borders can be negotiated. It all requires negotiations. A straw man, and an incendiary one at that. |
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7th December 2017, 09:46 AM | #95 |
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7th December 2017, 09:50 AM | #96 |
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Plenty certainly are. Say the army decides it needs it as a command post, there you go you lose your house. Sucks to be you. Or you could try to live upstairs and get shot.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/11/28/...can-stem-abuse
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7th December 2017, 09:52 AM | #97 |
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7th December 2017, 01:00 PM | #98 |
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War sucks all around. We should put an end to this one especially for the sake of the Palestinian people who, being the weaker party, suffer even more than the Israelis.
Again, the fastest and easiest way to put a halt to it is to bring both sides together to negotiate final borders. There are armistice lines that are now called "the Green Line". At the end of the Israeli war of independence all sides agreed they are not final borders. |
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7th December 2017, 04:03 PM | #99 |
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From someone who's clearly pro-Israel, that sounds pretty paternalistic.
But then, there must first be someone to talk to on the Palestinian side. Or, the Palestinians must first recognize Israel as a Jewish state - never mind that 20-25% of the citizens of Israel are not Jewish. Or whatever the excuse-du-jour from the Israeli government is not to talk. That doesn't invalidate the fact that all territory beyond the Green Line counts as occupied territory. Building settlements there which house 100s of 1000s Jewish Israelis, with their exclusive "slegs vir Jode" roads contravenes international law. Surely you'll also advocate that Israel revert the West Bank (and East Jerusalem) to the status quo ante, i.e., evacuates all those illegal settlers before starting negotiations? And yes, Israel has been using the excuse of "military use" for obvious civilian settlements in the West Bank/East Jerusalem, that's a plain fact. |
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7th December 2017, 04:14 PM | #100 |
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Oh, but you do value when others recognize it as such as well. It may not be a big bargaining chip, but it nevertheless is one, and Trump gave that away. Next he'll try to press the Palestinians into accepting Abu Dis and not East Jerusalem as capital. The new Saudi king may already have done so, though the content in that NYT article is contested by other sources.
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7th December 2017, 04:18 PM | #101 |
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Do you also have an actual argument against what ponderingturtle said?
Because that's exactly what the settlements are - facts on the ground that are very hard, if not impossible to reverse. All Israeli governments have clearly said that large settlement blocks like Ariel are unnegotiable and must remain Israeli in a final settlement. And as these large blocks run along most of the Green Line between Israel and the West Bank, there's also little opportunity for compensation elsewhere. Or it must be Lieberman's proposal to give Arab villages in the Galilee to the Palestinian state. |
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7th December 2017, 05:10 PM | #102 |
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7th December 2017, 08:31 PM | #103 |
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The misspellings of “borders” as “boarders” in this thread are entertaining. When I reas that I imagine that the Palestinians are just renting rooms at Yitzak’s boardinghouse awaiting a settlement deal.
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8th December 2017, 09:33 AM | #104 |
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Well, I guess I don't have to tell you the consequences so far, nothing unexpected or too dramatic.
As to the broader thread topic though, Trump has, also on Wednesday, called on Saudi Arabia to immediately and completely lift the blockade of Yemen. Long overdue and very important as the humanitarian situation is absolutely grave. |
8th December 2017, 02:14 PM | #105 |
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Your argument is that, having stolen the coastal lands, Israel is justified in stealing more land to secure the proceeds. Where's the limit to that?
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In fact the Yishuv launched a long-planned war of conquest and ethnic cleansing in which they had some success, particularly against unarmed civilians, but ultimately failed to complete on the first attempt, despite outnumbering and out-gunning what armed opposition there was. Hence the second and more successful effort in 1967. Out of interest, how do you imagine it happened?
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8th December 2017, 02:28 PM | #106 |
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and afterwards repeated that he wouldn't, just to make sure everybody understood he didn't mean it. A genuine act of such profound betrayal would have seen him long dead by now.
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8th December 2017, 03:17 PM | #107 |
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Don't know if this will be the end of it but violence erupting is hurting mostly Palestinians. Only one reported dead - a Palestinian. I guess I can understand the anger that leads to spontaneous riots, but these really weren't spontaneous as far as I can tell. CNN reported that Friday was to be the culmination but I read somewhere that Friday was going to be the beginning.
At the risk of drawing more straw-man attacks, I really have to wonder how long it will take Palestinians to realizing that uprisings and attacks are not helping. Which of course means I must be OK with Israel seizing land because God gave it to them. Just to save a certain poster the trouble of playing that broken record again. Off to see what Al Jazeera says. ETA: Two Palestinians killed. I just hope it doesn't get worse. |
8th December 2017, 03:26 PM | #108 |
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26th December 2017, 03:30 AM | #109 |
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So Donald Trump is a bad man because - unlike his predecessors - he implemented the clear will of Congress ?
And what happened to these "Days of Rage" ? Any more than happens every Friday in East Jerusalem and the Occupied Territories ? Is it only me that thinks the Arab protests about the embassy move to be somewhat muted and "pro forma" ? The UN never recognised any Arab claim on any part of Jerusalem. It was supposed to be a 'corpus seperandum'. So why is it then that Trump is accused of attempting to "change the status" of the city, whereas the 1988 PLO claim on East Jerusalem as their capital was met with silent acceptance from the UN ? Here's what I think. If the Israeli's where to formally surrender Jerusalem to the PLO, move all their citizens out, and create a new capital next to a rock in the Negev desert, then... SUDDENLY... that rock would be revealed by the PLO as being the centre of Palestinian culture, and "Islamic scholars" would reveal that Muhammed once urinated on that rock, making it the 4th most holy site in the Islamic World, and that it was another example of the injustices against the Palestinian People, and there must be Days Of Rage against the vile Zionist feet trampling the Noble Damp Rock. And so on, and so forth. Sod 'em all, and well done Donald Trump. |
27th December 2017, 04:27 AM | #110 |
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I think you are missing something here Roofgardner. Prior to the war of 1967, East Jerusalem was part of the state of Jordan. The international community and the UN recognise that the territories Israel occupies as a result of their success in that war are occupied illegally. In the 50 years since there has been no peace treaty and no resolution to the problem of Israel's activities in the illegally occupied lands such as settlement building or the security wall. The status of East Jerusalem should be handled as part of a final peace settlement between the state of Israel and the Palestinian people who were dispossessed during the war of 1967. For the Orange Clown in the White House to make this unilateral declaration breaks all common sense rules of diplomatic procedure as recognised by most of the world, including the USA's traditional allies in the West. That he is doing it largely at the behest of extremist Christians who hope to speed the coming of Armageddon and the Rapture is even more worrying.
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27th December 2017, 07:26 PM | #111 |
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I doubt that. I think Netenyahu asked Trump to do it, and Jared Kushner, who is Jewish and therefore understands Israel stuff, said it was a good idea. And Obama hadn't done it. A score for Trump.
Netenyahu got a distraction when he's feeling a serious need for one, but I doubt it's really working for him. |
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22nd January 2018, 07:25 PM | #112 |
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'A gift to extremists': Pence's Jerusalem speech draws Palestinian anger
Originally Posted by Middle East Eye
The text about the "Evangelical Zionist narrative" linked in the quote is pretty informative if you aren't familiar with the topic. Keep barf bag ready. |
23rd January 2018, 02:52 PM | #113 |
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[quote=Childlike Empress;12157132]'A gift to extremists': Pence's Jerusalem speech draws Palestinian anger
Except that literally everything draws Palestinian anger. That's the problem, is that their "moderates" qualify as extremists by any rational scale. At some point to get to peace you need to figure out what that looks like to you and move towards it. That Palestinians never do that is why many people think they don't want peace. Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk |
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