ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 30th November 2017, 03:20 PM   #41
sphenisc
Illuminator
 
sphenisc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,682
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
How does being conscious explain traveling velocity?
I think therefore I scram.
__________________
"The cure for everything is salt water - tears, sweat or the sea." Isak Dinesen
sphenisc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2017, 03:05 PM   #42
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 17,916
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Ironclad logic.
Iron... Are you a proponent of the Electric Uinverse and Iron Sun theory?
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2017, 12:41 AM   #43
Clive
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 366
1. A short story:

The Sun and the Wind had an argument as to who was stronger. They kept arguing with each other and couldn’t make a decision.

Meanwhile, a traveller was passing by. On seeing him, the Wind said, “The one who is able to make the traveller remove his coat is the winner.” The Wind decided to try first, and huffed and puffed and blew as hard as it could, but the traveller just drew his coat tightly around him and kept walking on. Finally, the Wind gave up and it was the turn of the Sun to show its might. The sun shone brightly. Gradually, it grew hotter and hotter and the heat was so unbearable that the traveller finally removed his coat.


The Sun proved his strength and was delighted at winning the argument.


(Source: http://shortstoriesshort.com/story/t...-and-the-wind/)


2. Everything on the Internet is true, and the source of the above story is the Internet.

3. Behaviour and obvious intelligence as exhibited by the sun in the above true story suggest consciousness.

4. I conclude the sun is in fact conscious.
Clive is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2017, 02:04 AM   #44
Roofgardener
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 382
If we are talking about The Sun - as in the steller body - then no, it is not conscious. It simply acts under basic physical principles, going mindlessly through the same predictable routines every day without any thought, awareness or consciousness.

If we are talking about The Sun - as in the British tabloid newspaper, then....

... actually... same answer

Last edited by Roofgardener; 2nd December 2017 at 02:05 AM.
Roofgardener is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 02:55 AM   #45
Dabop
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Oz
Posts: 703
Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Years ago I read a science fiction story about intelligent beings that had evolved within the Sun, totally unaware of the surrounding solar system.
Pretty decent story, as I recall...

There does seem to be a pervasive belief among the New Age Woo types in some sort of vague “universal consciousness”.
One of my favourites with this theme is The_World_at_the_End_of_Time
__________________
It's a kind of a strawman thing in that it's exactly a strawman thing. Loss Leader

'When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.' George Carlin
Dabop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 05:23 PM   #46
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,120
Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Maybe Sundiver by David Brin.
One of the greatest preludes to a fantastic trilogy I ever read. But no. The story was to lead in an entirely different direction.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2017, 07:48 AM   #47
albie
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 124
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Just asking questions on behalf of the David Icke forum, Albie? I've looked through your post history, and that is the obvious suspicion.
nope.

http://www.online-literature.com/for...-sun-conscious

Would it matter if I were?
albie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2017, 11:44 AM   #48
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 23,418
Originally Posted by albie View Post
It gives some context for vacuous questions, yes. One would also take into account poster behaviour when judging the worth of responding. I mean, what is the point of engaging with someone who posts a provocative (or stupid) thread and then buggers off, returning weeks later?

Oh, and Rubert "I can talk to dogs" Sheldrake is a woo-meister of the highest order. Don't expect to have anything he says taken seriously around here.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.

Last edited by MikeG; 11th December 2017 at 11:46 AM.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th December 2017, 08:19 AM   #49
albie
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 124
Does it matter if I were never to return? I mean it's not like you guys are patrolling conspiracy forums(unless I missed you)correcting folk. Aren't ALL conspiracy theories/alternative ideas vacuous to you guys? I have a weird theory...I'm not going to tell you what it is...but I want to know your opinion on it right now. Do you believe it?

I bet not. No offence but why are you guys hanging out disproving stuff for each other that you wouldn't have believed in anyway? Surely your time would be better spent on the David Icke forum making them look like fools.
albie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th December 2017, 08:34 AM   #50
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 26,889
Originally Posted by albie View Post
I have a weird theory...I'm not going to tell you what it is...but I want to know your opinion on it right now. Do you believe it?
Based on experience I'd suspect it was bollocks, but my opinion isn't all that important; whatever it is, the evidence for and against it needs to be evaluated. If the evidence for it is virtually non-existent or requires excessive inductive leaps, and it's not actually possible to tie down whether it's true or not because it has no practical significance, then really, who cares?

Originally Posted by albie View Post
Surely your time would be better spent on the David Icke forum making them look like fools.
Newcastle has plenty of coal, thank you.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th December 2017, 08:40 AM   #51
Beerina
Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
 
Beerina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 29,235
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Wasn't that a Dr Who plot?


Ha ha, very funny. Since you asked, here the Doctor defeats a sunlike god

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


which likes absorbing memories the way usual freaky science fiction enemies like absorbing hatred and anger.

It has a cool solution -- the Doctor's memories are so vast and terrible that it will overwhelm even this creature.

Unfortunately, they balked at the last second by having it fail so they could shoehorn in a Clara solution instead.

But it will always be the real ending to me.
__________________
"Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson

The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

Last edited by Beerina; 18th December 2017 at 08:57 AM.
Beerina is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th December 2017, 11:02 AM   #52
Steve001
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,313
Originally Posted by albie View Post
Does it matter if I were never to return? I mean it's not like you guys are patrolling conspiracy forums(unless I missed you)correcting folk. Aren't ALL conspiracy theories/alternative ideas vacuous to you guys? I have a weird theory...I'm not going to tell you what it is...but I want to know your opinion on it right now. Do you believe it?

I bet not. No offence but why are you guys hanging out disproving stuff for each other that you wouldn't have believed in anyway? Surely your time would be better spent on the David Icke forum making them look like fools.
We'd likely get banned too quickly to make a rational difference so we wait here and eventually someone with a "brilliant" theory or question shows up.
Steve001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2017, 06:28 PM   #53
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,724
Originally Posted by albie View Post
Does it matter if I were never to return?
No. It doesn't. It simply demonstrates that you don't believe your own ideas.

Originally Posted by albie View Post
I mean it's not like you guys are patrolling conspiracy forums(unless I missed you)correcting folk.
While we are not "patrolling" anything, lots of us happen to be on the same fora elsewhere. That is inevitable. We have common interests.

Originally Posted by albie View Post
Aren't ALL conspiracy theories/alternative ideas vacuous to you guys?
Nope. That is flat out nonsense.

Originally Posted by albie View Post
I have a weird theory...I'm not going to tell you what it is...but I want to know your opinion on it right now. Do you believe it?
I don't know. Let me consult with the dragon in my garage. You do accept that I have a dragon in my garage, right?

Originally Posted by albie View Post
I bet not. No offence but why are you guys hanging out disproving stuff for each other that you wouldn't have believed in anyway? Surely your time would be better spent on the David Icke forum making them look like fools.
That is not what happens here and FFS the ickebots have no need of our assistance to make them look like morons. And I was a member there and got banned for having an opinion they did not much like. It was much like the holocaust. First, the labels were applied, then doom happened. That is the nature of DI.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2017, 06:56 PM   #54
fuelair
Suspended
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,679
Is the Sun Conscious?

NO!!!!!!!!! Nor is any other star or related!!!!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2017, 07:24 PM   #55
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 22,778
Originally Posted by albie View Post
I am having a debate with a guy who believes there is scientific evidence that some suns demonstrate consciousness.

Here is his evidence...

http://www.gregmatloff.com/Edge%20Sc...tloff-ES29.pdf

http://www.conscious-stars.com/blog/...spectral-lines

The theory is that some stars move too fast to explained by theories on gravity and that these stars have simple molecules at their edges which could carry consciousness. ergo the advanced speeds of these stars are due to volition.

what do you think?
The polite version:

You can imagine any nonsense you want, but of course if what you imagine is nonsense then so is everything you imagine about it. Everything is conscious if you redefine consciousness to include it. The resulting redefinition is of course meaningless, and since nothing you say about nothing is more than nothing, what you've said is only that.

One might of course use the terser, less polite term for the stuff bovine creatures leave in the grass, but that, for all that, is real, and perhaps does not deserve to be insulted by identification with the insubstantial.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2017, 07:31 PM   #56
Hans
Philosopher
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,406
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I am conscious. My faeces is a product of mine. Is it possible that it is conscious? It's even organic........... but unfortunately I haven't worked out a way of working "quantum" into the sentence.
I believe you might be right. I worked for and with several people who were truly faeces like.
Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th December 2017, 09:13 AM   #57
fuelair
Suspended
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,679
Originally Posted by Hans View Post
I believe you might be right. I worked for and with several people who were truly faeces like.
I have even read posts on some of these threads in here (the entire input of posters here) that must have been written by persons who were made up entirely of faecal matter!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th December 2017, 01:12 PM   #58
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 22,778
Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I have even read posts on some of these threads in here (the entire input of posters here) that must have been written by persons who were made up entirely of faecal matter!!!
I respectfully disagree, as I believe the composition of many includes a sack.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st December 2017, 09:36 AM   #59
WhatRoughBeast
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by albie View Post
Aren't ALL conspiracy theories/alternative ideas vacuous to you guys?
No, no, no. A good conspiracy theory is ingenious. It must incorporate all the known facts (including, if necessary, a mechanism for producing false "facts" which we, the sheeple, will accept to divert us from the truth), and provide a "better" narrative. Of course, such a theory is generally impossible to prove, which makes the decision as to whether to accept or reject it rather a matter of taste.

Of course, that's a GOOD theory. So many offerings sound entertaining, but they get the details wrong, and skepticism gets results.

Let's take an example: remember the Oklahoma City bombing? There was a cogent theory put forth by a guy with (purportedly, but he seemed genuine) explosives experience that the blast would have reflected from the front of the building, and the depth of the collapse was inconsistent with known behavior of structures under these conditions. Therefore, the damage was not entirely caused by the truck bomb, and some supplementary explosives (as in, preplanted charges) was needed to explain the effects. This in turn implied a major government effort to plant, conceal and synchronize the supplementary charges, which in turn implied, at the least, government collusion with Timothy MacVeigh.

Now that's what I call a good conspiracy theory. It doesn't require anonymous sources (who may or may not exist), and it doesn't require any ideological predisposition to reject official versions of "the truth".

Unfortunately, since its assumptions are clear they can be examined (by the skeptical), and they are flawed. The front of the Murragh building was not a uniform surface. Instead, the second floor overhung the first by about 15 or 20 feet. The bottom front edge of the facade was a concrete beam supported by 5 concrete pillars. The bomb fractured the beam and destroyed at least 2 of the five pillars, with the result that the entire front of the building was unsupported and collapsed, with much greater penetration of damage than the assumed construction would have produced.

See? That's a conspiracy theory which was not in the least vacuous. It turns out to be wrong, but that's not the same thing.

Last edited by WhatRoughBeast; 21st December 2017 at 09:39 AM.
WhatRoughBeast is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2017, 08:07 PM   #60
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 12,814
Originally Posted by albie View Post
The theory is that some stars move too fast to explained by theories on gravity and that these stars have simple molecules at their edges which could carry consciousness. ergo the advanced speeds of these stars are due to volition.
Isn't that evidence on the "light" side? You could just as easily conclude that stars are made out of fairy dust.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2017, 10:15 PM   #61
fuelair
Suspended
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,679
Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
If we are talking about The Sun - as in the steller body - then no, it is not conscious. It simply acts under basic physical principles, going mindlessly through the same predictable routines every day without any thought, awareness or consciousness.

If we are talking about The Sun - as in the British tabloid newspaper, then....

... actually... same answer
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:32 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.