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Old 7th December 2017, 07:38 AM   #41
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
As you imply it is really quite ridiculous to suggest a common Jewish-Israeli _national_ character existing continuously from ancient times to the 20th century. For comparison one would be on way better footing to assert the existence of a continuous Iranian national character from Cyrus to the present day, but even that would be questionable to ridiculous, as that overarching view of continuity from the Achaemenids through the Sassanians and Islamic times only really emerged with the Mongol rulers of the Ilkhanate who saw it fit to paint Chingiis Khan as the second coming of Cyrus the Great. And of course the modern movement began in earnest only in the 19th century!

So... a continuous Israeli identity? Uh, nope.
But it is vital politically to view it that way, or they look like a European colony.
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Old 7th December 2017, 07:43 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But it is vital politically to view it that way, or they look like a European colony.
To be fair, European colonies are typically, at least at some point in their history, ruled by a European country, which is clearly not true of the present day nation of Israel.

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Old 7th December 2017, 08:20 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
To be fair, European colonies are typically, at least at some point in their history, ruled by a European country, which is clearly not true of the present day nation of Israel.

Dave
Just by people from European countries
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Old 7th December 2017, 08:27 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Just by people from European countries
Not in dispute. I'm not saying that Israel is better or worse, by whatever means you want to define, than a European colony; just that it's significantly different to one in rather a fundamental way.

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Old 7th December 2017, 08:57 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Not in dispute. I'm not saying that Israel is better or worse, by whatever means you want to define, than a European colony; just that it's significantly different to one in rather a fundamental way.

Dave
Yes indeed. The parallels are striking though.
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Old 7th December 2017, 09:08 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
A Palestinian national identity arose only fairly recently as a result of the way borders were forcibly drawn after WWs 1+2. It is essentially negatively defined as those Arabs caught in limbo between Israel on one side, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt on the other. With Jordan playing a low-key, special role. In fact, it has long been said by some sypathetic to Israel's territorial claims that a recognized Palestinian state already exists, and its name is Jordan.

Prior to the establishment of Israel and the invention of Jordan, Iraq etc, indeed the whole region was merely called "Palestine" as a historic geographic term referencing an ancient Roman province named after a Kanaanite tribe, the Philistines, if memory serves (I am slightly unsure about the "Kanaanite" designation), but it was inhabited mostly by Arabs identifying as Arabs and muslims. Hence the locally prefered option in the early and mid 20th century to create a greater Syria as an Arab state, which could have included modern Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and parts of Iraq. Had an Israel been wedged into such a greater Syria, there would have been a place for displaced Palestinians to go and have rights as full citizens of a recognized, strong state.

Israel, in contrast, has indeed had a rather clear identity, both ethnically and territorially, all the time since at least the Maccabean time.

The problem is that we can't roll back time and implement better solutions that might have been feasible before lots of **** hit multiple fans. We have to deal with a Palestinian identity, even though that has emerged rather recently and we' d perhaps be collectively better of if we could all forget about it.
A "national" identity as you describe isn't much older than the idea of a Palestinian national identity.

Various administrative structures dating back to Roman times have borne that name, however. This is also the case for many places we know today and readily accept as the names of regions and the inhabitants therein.

The Ottoman administrative divisions used more the old Satrapy/City-State style of naming (and Eastern names, ex. Halab rather than Aleppo).

I'm not sure whether the old regional names survived through the ages or whether, when offered a semi-autonomous rule with hopes for independence, they wisely chose not to balk at what word was used to describe it. In either case, there are numerous parallels of regional identities complete with unique ethno-linguistic quirks that we all readily accept as authentic.

I mean is Germany really Germany, then? The people we call Germans migrated there from somewhere else! Hell, half of them live in a place called "France" and the ones actually in Germany were trying for 7-800 some-odd years to convince us all they were actually Romans (and Holy...and an Empire). Meanwhile, France was actually part of Rome while Germany wasn't for crying out loud!

Just sayin' :9.

ETA: Do I need to que up a certain They Might Be Giants song?

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Old 7th December 2017, 09:08 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Yes indeed. The parallels are striking though.
Hence the need to firmly establish the idea that there was either continuous presence of the Jewish people there and that it was a barren wasteland. Being viewed as primarily european people moving in and taking land from the people who live there would be politically unacceptable no matter how accurate it is.

And of course non european jews are not exactly treated all that well.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32813056
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Old 7th December 2017, 09:45 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Not in dispute. I'm not saying that Israel is better or worse, by whatever means you want to define, than a European colony; just that it's significantly different to one in rather a fundamental way.

Dave
Well, there's inherently two kinds of colonies is probably more accurate. One is where a diffuse population is displaced by mass migration (Americas, Australia) and the other is a thin administrative apparatus directing a subjugated population (Africa, India). The protectorate model picked up a lot of its DNA from the latter (having similar developed infrastructure, social institutions, and regional proximity). The proper modern term would be more akin to "occupied territory"

Then the script changes and suddenly there's a lot of mass migration. The other North African and India colonies to one degree or another saw local populations enter the bureaucracy and take control. Generally speaking, there's a rough correlation between the peaceful and structured transition and positive relations with the West. To my mind, the unique thing about Israel is the entirely questionable transition alongside its top-tier status among former colonies. A sudden mass migration parallel to a transition to "local" rule with frequently positive benefits for the former host country and its allies/power bloc raises a few yellow flags for me.

ETA: this would also not be an unprecedented event. A certain Babylonian king once gave the Israeli people right of return. There was a resurgent Egypt at the time and he saw that spinning Israel off as an autonomous dependent would give him a nice buffer state.

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Old 7th December 2017, 10:28 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Is this the case? I can't say Israeli 20th century history is an area I have really been able to wrap my head around, but the reading I have done (which admittedly has been written by friends of Israel, though not utter jingoists) gave the impression that there were broadcasts that did play a role, but that violence and the generally coercive/unfriendly environment Palestinians now found themselves in were the ultimate reasons for why Palestinians left. That is, that it was not exactly forcible, but not exactly voluntary either.
Some left voluntarily and some were forced out. Some kind of a combination. Both sides have incentive to exaggerate that which better supports their narrative, and they do.
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Old 7th December 2017, 10:43 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
To be fair, European colonies are typically, at least at some point in their history, ruled by a European country, which is clearly not true of the present day nation of Israel.

Dave
Ask any Mizrahim or Beta Israel in Israel and they'll say the place is run by Ashkenazim.
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Old 7th December 2017, 11:27 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hence the need to firmly establish the idea that there was either continuous presence of the Jewish people there and that it was a barren wasteland. Being viewed as primarily european people moving in and taking land from the people who live there would be politically unacceptable no matter how accurate it is.
Exhibit A in this category is Joan Peters' book "From Time Immemorial", which argued this on basis of forged and invented statistics and selective quoting, like a Mark Twain quote with an ellipsis in it... that spanned over 300 pages. The wiki page gives a nice overview of the history of the book. When it first came out in the USA, all pro-Israel shills lapped it up. When it later came out in the UK, Norman Finkelstein, who wrote his PhD thesis on eviscerating the hoax, sent his notes to the reviewers and the book was blown out of the water by the reviewers of the Times and the London Review of Books. In Israel itself, the book was laughed out of the room by relevant academics.

Undaunted by this, Alan Dershowitz later copied and pasted significant parts of the book for his own book "The Case for Israel", including the aforementioned Mark Twain quote. When Finkelstein called him out on this, he suddenly didn't get tenure at DePaul.
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Old 7th December 2017, 11:29 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Some left voluntarily and some were forced out. Some kind of a combination. Both sides have incentive to exaggerate that which better supports their narrative, and they do.
Yeah, but that's a pretty weak narrative as far as understanding the events go.
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Old 7th December 2017, 05:36 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
After the failed UN partition plan, in 1948 war broke out between Israel and its neighbours and in 1949 an armistice was signed with the "Green Line" delineating Israel. Pending a final peace resolution, the "Green Line" is the recognized border of Israel. Egypt occupied and militarily administered the Gaza Strip. Jordan annexed the West Bank and East Jerusalem; no other country save the UK recognized this annexation.
Fun fact: All the parties that signed the 1949 armistice agreed the "green line" was NOT Israel's border, that it was just an armistice line and that a permanent border would be agreed upon (or fought over) later.
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Old 8th December 2017, 12:47 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Wouldn't the simplest thing just be to forget about dividing the country and make it one secular nation state where Palestinians and Israelis have the same rights? That would seem the most rational solution to me. Give it some funky name that doesn't favour either.
The problem with that is baby making. The Palestinians who have no interest in being Israelis will eventually grow more voters than Israeli Jews. Your proposal would mean the end of the Jewish state.
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Old 8th December 2017, 01:43 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The problem with that is baby making. The Palestinians who have no interest in being Israelis will eventually grow more voters than Israeli Jews. Your proposal would mean the end of the Jewish state.
Of course it would mean that. Undesired Walrus is saying exactly so. A Jewish state would end and
one secular nation state where Palestinians and Israelis have the same rights
would replace it. That is the essence of this position.

Would you object, if I suggested that Catholics and Protestants should have the same rights in a United Ireland: that would end the Protestant ascendancy in part of that partitioned island? (These Catholics breed like rabbits, don't you know?)

Of course it would! It should be ended. States should belong to the generality of their population, not to any defined religious or ethnic sub group.

Zionism has unintentionally perpetuated the now outdated assumptions of the late nineteenth century imperialist milieu in which it was founded.

Here is the 1916 Irish Republic proclamation of Independence
The Irish Republic is entitled to, and hereby claims, the allegiance of every Irishman and Irish woman. The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities of all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the children of the nation equally, and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority in the past.
Here is a self justification from the Jewish National FundWP.
The JNF is not the trustee of the general public in Israel. Its loyalty is given to the Jewish people in the Diaspora and in the state of Israel... The JNF, in relation to being an owner of land, is not a public body that works for the benefit of all citizens of the state. The loyalty of the JNF is given to the Jewish people and only to them is the JNF obligated. The JNF, as the owner of the JNF land, does not have a duty to practice equality towards all citizens of the state.
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Old 8th December 2017, 01:46 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Your proposal would mean the end of the Jewish state.
Honestly... so? Aren't strictly maintained ethno-states kind of out of fashion?
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Old 8th December 2017, 04:54 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The problem with that is baby making. The Palestinians who have no interest in being Israelis will eventually grow more voters than Israeli Jews.
[ citation required ]
Shall we play a game? You provide a reference that argues that "demographic threat", and then I'll provide a reference that demolishes the numbers.

Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Your proposal would mean the end of the Jewish state.
Given that from the beginning, over 20% of the Israeli population have been Palestinians, not Jews, don't you think that's a bit insulting to a large minority?
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Old 8th December 2017, 05:42 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Well duh. That would be denying Israelis their national identity, which is basically genocide, unlike denying Palestinians their national identity, which is totally cool.
The Israeli's do have a cultural tie with the region that reaches back into ancient history. For a thousand years, the Passover and Yom Kippur ceremonies have ended with the phrase "next year... in Jerusalem". Whether that counts as a national identity is another matter.

The Palestinians do not. Perhaps they might in the future, but as thinks stand currently they are a manufactured nationality with a manufactured claim on the land in general, and Jerusalem in particular.

To quote Zuheir Mohsen,

Originally Posted by Zuheir Mohsen
...Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new tool to continue the fight against Israel and for Arab unity.

........Once we have accomplished all of our rights in all of Palestine, we shouldn't postpone the unification of Jordan and Palestine for one second....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen
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Old 8th December 2017, 05:51 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
The Israeli's do have a cultural tie with the region that reaches back into ancient history. For a thousand years, the Passover and Yom Kippur ceremonies have ended with the phrase "next year... in Jerusalem". Whether that counts as a national identity is another matter.

The Palestinians do not. Perhaps they might in the future, but as thinks stand currently they are a manufactured nationality with a manufactured claim on the land in general, and Jerusalem in particular.
So if I spend the next ten years wishing I lived in your house, does that mean I deserve it more than you because your only connection to it is that you live there already?

Dave
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Old 8th December 2017, 06:02 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Honestly... so? Aren't strictly maintained ethno-states kind of out of fashion?
So it's a part of the world where being an ethnic minority really sucks. To the north in Syria Yazidi women have been traded back and forth as sex slaves, their men simply murdered. To the southwest, Egypt, Coptic Christians face regular attack in addition to the governmental discrimination against them.
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Old 8th December 2017, 06:03 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
So if I spend the next ten years wishing I lived in your house, does that mean I deserve it more than you because your only connection to it is that you live there already?

Dave
The Jewish National Funds thinks so, as already noted.
The JNF is not the trustee of the general public in Israel. Its loyalty is given to the Jewish people in the Diaspora and in the state of Israel... The JNF, in relation to being an owner of land, is not a public body that works for the benefit of all citizens of the state.
it provides land for Jewish tenants whether they live in the area or not, and not for others, whether they live there or not. This is the fundamental principle of Zionism. That is why people who support that ideology give more weight to Biblical mythology than to current legal tenure. As if I had to have a real ethnicity to have the right to occupy my home in the city of my birth.
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Old 8th December 2017, 06:04 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
So if I spend the next ten years wishing I lived in your house, does that mean I deserve it more than you because your only connection to it is that you live there already?

Dave
To make the analogy work, you need to buy the house.
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Old 8th December 2017, 06:05 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
The Israeli's do have a cultural tie with the region that reaches back into ancient history. For a thousand years, the Passover and Yom Kippur ceremonies have ended with the phrase "next year... in Jerusalem". Whether that counts as a national identity is another matter.

The Palestinians do not. Perhaps they might in the future, but as thinks stand currently they are a manufactured nationality with a manufactured claim on the land in general, and Jerusalem in particular.

To quote Zuheir Mohsen,


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen
Manufactured identity is just as important as non manufactured identity.
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Old 8th December 2017, 06:13 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
The Palestinians do not. Perhaps they might in the future, but as thinks stand currently they are a manufactured nationality with a manufactured claim on the land in general, and Jerusalem in particular.

To quote Zuheir Mohsen,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen
And what are Mohsen's credentials as an ethnographer? His bio is that of a politician who wanted a "Greater Syria". I could also dig up plenty of quotes from Dutch or Flemish (wannabe) politicians with an agenda who claim we're really one people and advocate a "Greater Netherlands".
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Old 8th December 2017, 06:19 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
To make the analogy work, you need to buy the house.
No, I think I just need to break in.

Dave
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Old 8th December 2017, 06:44 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
The Israeli's do have a cultural tie with the region that reaches back into ancient history. For a thousand years, the Passover and Yom Kippur ceremonies have ended with the phrase "next year... in Jerusalem". Whether that counts as a national identity is another matter.

The Palestinians do not. Perhaps they might in the future, but as thinks stand currently they are a manufactured nationality with a manufactured claim on the land in general, and Jerusalem in particular.

To quote Zuheir Mohsen,


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen
If manufactured identity is a disqualifier, we've got a lot of putting our own house in order to do. What national identity isn't "manufactured" in the same sense?

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
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Old 8th December 2017, 06:47 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
To make the analogy work, you need to buy the house seize the house through eminent domain and gentrify the neighborhood by making generous grants and tax incentives to out of town developers.
Better.

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Old 8th December 2017, 07:13 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
No, I think I just need to break in.

Dave
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Better.

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Then you guys are shamefully promoting a characterization of the conflict that's purposefully distorted to be inflammatory.
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Old 8th December 2017, 07:21 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Then you guys are shamefully promoting a characterization of the conflict that's purposefully distorted to be inflammatory.
How so?
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Old 8th December 2017, 07:27 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Then you guys are shamefully promoting a characterization of the conflict that's purposefully distorted to be inflammatory.
In your characterisation, then, in what sense did Israel "buy" the house?

Like any analogy it's flawed, and the reality is far more complex; but any representation that results in the appearance of people who have lived in an area for centuries having no right to continue living there is hardly undistorted either.

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Old 8th December 2017, 07:36 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Then you guys are shamefully promoting a characterization of the conflict that's purposefully distorted to be inflammatory.
Unilateral assertion of one's own position being superior or another's inferior is about the most useless contribution to a discussion one can make.

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Old 8th December 2017, 07:46 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
To make the analogy work, you need to buy the house.
More precisely, buy your neighbourhood from your unscrupulous landlord and evict you because you are of the wrong ethnicity.

Owning so much property that the livelihood and shelter of other people is entirely dependent on land and real estate you own gives you the power to do profoundly immoral things. Quelle surprise.
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Old 8th December 2017, 07:53 AM   #73
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Americans seem to understand Black nationalism but not Arab nationalism. Netanyahu doesn't want peace, he wants war with Iran. That's very unfair on British hostages of the mad mullahs in Iran I hope that's civil enough.

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Old 8th December 2017, 10:49 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
In your characterisation, then, in what sense did Israel "buy" the house?
Because Zionist immigrants from the very beginning to today needed to acquire their lands and residences by legally purchasing or leasing them. Just like any other immigrant in any other nation of the world. The characterization that Jews just show up, kick Arabic peoples out of their homes and lands and move in is false, inflammatory, and frankly bigoted.

Now, having said that, it is also true that during the Israeli war of independence (called the "Nakba" by some) Arabs who fled, voluntarily or by force, were not allowed back (with some exceptions) and their lands were ultimately taken by the state. In addition in subsequent years there have also been incidences where security zones and buffers have also displaced Palestinians from their lands. I am not defending these actions, but am pointing out that they are a tiny percentage of the whole, and to characterize it as typical rather than exceptional is not correct.

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Like any analogy it's flawed, and the reality is far more complex; but any representation that results in the appearance of people who have lived in an area for centuries having no right to continue living there is hardly undistorted either.

Dave
The conflict can be characterized as a civil war, but it needs to be brought to an end. A two state solution, albeit imperfect, puts an end to the violence and lets everyone have self determination.
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Old 8th December 2017, 10:58 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
More precisely, buy your neighbourhood from your unscrupulous landlord and evict you because you are of the wrong ethnicity.
While that may have happened on an individual basis, the JNF, which was the agency who acquired lands to facilitate immigration specifically targeted unused lands for the specific purpose of not creating resentment among local Arab populations who would have been displaced.

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Owning so much property that the livelihood and shelter of other people is entirely dependent on land and real estate you own gives you the power to do profoundly immoral things. Quelle surprise.
In theory this is true, but I don't see how it applies to this conflict. I humbly suggest you may have formed opinions based on incomplete information.
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Old 8th December 2017, 11:00 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Unilateral assertion of one's own position being superior or another's inferior is about the most useless contribution to a discussion one can make.
My unilateral assertion was a critique of your statement alone, and not a comparison. If you want to provide evidence demonstrating your analogy is true, feel free to do so.
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Old 8th December 2017, 11:31 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I have no idea if any of the Jewish people who lived in the area in 1947 refused Israeli citizenship, or if there are any Jewish people living in West Bank or Gaza who have not sought out nor want Israeli citizenship.
I can assure you there are no Jews living in Gaza.
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Old 8th December 2017, 11:35 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I can assure you there are no Jews living in Gaza.
That's probably the most concise expression of who's actually in the wrong, here. There are Arabs in Tel Aviv, but no Jews in Gaza.
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Old 8th December 2017, 12:52 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
While that may have happened on an individual basis, the JNF, which was the agency who acquired lands to facilitate immigration specifically targeted unused lands for the specific purpose of not creating resentment among local Arab populations who would have been displaced.
You're selectively quoting from the history of the JNF?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Fund:
Quote:
By 1948, the JNF owned 54% of the land held by Jews in the region,[16] or a bit less than 4% of the land in what was then known as the British Madate of Palestine.[17] By the eve of statehood, the JNF had acquired a total of 936,000 dunums of land;[18] another 800,000 dunums had been acquired by other Jewish organizations or individuals.
But after Israel's establishment:
Quote:
After Israel's establishment in 1948, the government began to sell absentee lands to the JNF. On January 27, 1949, 1,000 km² of land (from a total of about 3,500 km²) was sold to the JNF for the price of I£11 million. Another 1,000 km² of land was sold to the JNF in October 1950. Over the years questions about the legitimacy of these transactions have been raised but Israeli legislation has generally supported the JNF's land claims.
One dunum is around 900 m2, so the 2,000 km2 the JNF acquired in 1948/1950 equals 2,222,222 dunum, i.e., more than twice what she had acquired by buying it from Arab landlords.

The land that Israel sold to the JNF in 1948 and 1950 was confiscated from "absentee" landlords. However, "absentee" does not even mean they were out of the country:
Quote:
As a result, two million dunams were confiscated and given to the custodian, who later transferred the land to the development authority. This law created the novel citizenship category of "present absentees" (nifkadim nohahim), persons present at the time but considered absent for the purpose of the law. These Israeli Arabs enjoyed all civil rights-including the right to vote in the Knesset elections-except one: the right to use and dispose of their property. About 30,000-35,000 Palestinians became "present absentees".
When Robert Fisk interviewed the Custodian of Absentee Property, he said that maybe up to 70% of Israeli territory had been confiscated from "absentees".

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
In theory this is true, but I don't see how it applies to this conflict. I humbly suggest you may have formed opinions based on incomplete information.
What an ironic statement given the above.
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Old 8th December 2017, 01:34 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You're selectively quoting from the history of the JNF?
No, I was specifically referring to the period of time from before the foundation of Israel.
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