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Old 1st January 2018, 10:37 PM   #1361
Samson
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Anyone holding bitcoin right now will soon understand that putting profits in the tin is essential.
Bitcoin will bounce from 5000, offering one last chance to bank profits.
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Old 1st January 2018, 10:46 PM   #1362
Craig B
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Wow. Satoshi Nakamoto is not only a computer geek but psychic and can control the future too!
No; but he could make bets on it, and increase the odds in his favour by designing the enterprise to be attractive to a targeted category of victims: millions of libertarians are still being sucked in by this Ponzi scheme that masquerades as a better alternative to 'fiat' currency". I think that's what's being argued. If that is what happened it is poetic justice.

The main force we have to protect us from swindlers and assailants is the government, with its repressive and regulatory legal and enforcement powers. In a democracy deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. Libertarians see this as tyranny, and refuse to offer their consent. Not only, therefore, can they not resist swindles designed to negate and usurp the social functions of government - they positively embrace them. They have for example elected an "anti-President" in the USA.

Is bitcoin a scam intentionally conceived, and cleverly designed, to exploit this ideological prejudice?
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Old 2nd January 2018, 04:47 AM   #1363
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
No; but he could make bets on it, and increase the odds in his favour by designing the enterprise to be attractive to a targeted category of victims: millions of libertarians are still being sucked in by this Ponzi scheme that masquerades as a better alternative to 'fiat' currency". I think that's what's being argued. If that is what happened it is poetic justice.
Bitcoin is NOT a ponzi scheme and it doesn't "masquerade" as anything other than exactly what it is.

The fact that you have to consistently find new adjectives to make bitcoin seem worse than it is is your problem.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:01 AM   #1364
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Bitcoin is NOT a ponzi scheme and it doesn't "masquerade" as anything other than exactly what it is.
Good. So what's your reasoning. Is this it?
Quote:
The fact that you have to consistently find new adjectives to make bitcoin seem worse than it is is your problem.
I'm not at all impressed with that argument. Recall mine? Bitcoin and Ponzi schemes have a prime essential similarity. They are both arrangements for taking money out of an enterprise without putting any new real value into it.

All you have to do to refute that, is to show the value added, or revenue generated, by Bitcoin. As you have been invited to do: tell us what its price to earnings ratio is, for example. That would settle the matter.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 07:38 AM   #1365
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Good. So what's your reasoning.
You should have paid attention the last time I explained why they are totally different.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
All you have to do to refute that, is to show the value added, or revenue generated, by Bitcoin. As you have been invited to do: tell us what its price to earnings ratio is, for example. That would settle the matter.
Give it up! Bitcoin is nothing more than buying something at one price and selling it at another. It has more similarity to stamp collecting than any of the nefarious schemes that you want to shoehorn bitcoin into.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 09:05 AM   #1366
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Bitcoin now the biggest bubble ever. RTTV

Quote:
https://www.rt.com/business/412944-b...t-bubble-ever/

To the moon! updated chart from Convoy Investments showing #bitcoin surpassing all other previous financial bubbles in recorded history

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQ33ZyIX4AYLeli.jpg

Max Keiser interviewed Michael Pento. See episode 1170. Max has been pushing Bitcoin for years, and still is. Pento was very skeptical.

While I am pretty much in agreement with Max on a number of issues, Bitcoin is one I am not.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 09:23 AM   #1367
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You should have paid attention the last time I explained why they are totally different.


Give it up! Bitcoin is nothing more than buying something at one price and selling it at another. It has more similarity to stamp collecting than any of the nefarious schemes that you want to shoehorn bitcoin into.
I suppose there could be a speculative bubble in the price of old or rare stamps. If Bitcoin is as you say, then you are admitting that it is a bubble.

Because current stamps used to cover postage charges don't behave like bitcoin. Things providing a service don't shoot up in price to that degree; because the extent of the service gives them an intrinsic measurable value, which Bitcoin doesn't have.

Pure speculation. "Buying at one price and selling at another" can create a bubble, if it gets out of hand and becomes a mania unrelated to the object's value, assuming that it has a value in the first place.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 09:24 AM   #1368
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What stops hackers from hacking exchanges to steal crypto-currency? Including bitcoin?


Quote:
https://www.rt.com/business/410479-b...ryptocurrency/

Hackers have robbed the wallet in the 19th largest cryptocurrency tether. The company behind the dollar-pegged cryptocurrency blamed "malicious action by an external attacker" for the theft of $30,950,010 on Monday.

Tether would not redeem any of the stolen tokens. The cryptocurrency’s market cap is $674 million, with the value of one tether equal to one US dollar.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 09:53 AM   #1369
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I suppose there could be a speculative bubble in the price of old or rare stamps. If Bitcoin is as you say, then you are admitting that it is a bubble.

Because current stamps used to cover postage charges don't behave like bitcoin. Things providing a service don't shoot up in price to that degree; because the extent of the service gives them an intrinsic measurable value, which Bitcoin doesn't have.

Pure speculation. "Buying at one price and selling at another" can create a bubble, if it gets out of hand and becomes a mania unrelated to the object's value, assuming that it has a value in the first place.
So what? I have always said that bitcoin is in a bubble and that it has gone through many bubbles in its lifetime. Some were minor and some were spectacular. It is your assertion that bitcoin will go through a final bubble then have no lasting value that is without merit.

Collecting cancelled stamps that have no "intrinsic value" (whatever that means) and have practical use whatsoever is an exact analogy. Many stamp buyers are only in it for the money (ie speculators). There seems to be no end in sight to the number of "greater fools" who are willing to buy rare and expensive stamps.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 09:55 AM   #1370
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
What stops hackers from hacking exchanges to steal crypto-currency? Including bitcoin?
Never! Unless that's one
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
of the nefarious schemes that you want to shoehorn bitcoin into.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 10:12 AM   #1371
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Collecting cancelled stamps that have no "intrinsic value" (whatever that means)
It does have a meaning, believe me.
Quote:
and have practical use whatsoever is an exact analogy. Many stamp buyers are only in it for the money (ie speculators). There seems to be no end in sight to the number of "greater fools" who are willing to buy rare and expensive stamps.
I agree with all that. It's the degree of social consequence that distinguishes the two kinds of speculation. I can't think of a case in which Joe Kennedy was advised by his shoe shine boy: buy Penny Blacks, and then Joe said, "when the shoe shine boy is giving advice on stamp collecting, it's time to get out."

Then the price of penny blacks crashed and brought the economy down with it. Not likely. But it is the same thing, one on a socially and economically insignificant scale, the other not. Bitcoin, like 1840 penny stamps, has no intrinsic or use value giving it any particular price at all.

Also unlike old cancelled stamps, Bitcoin has been made the darling of the extreme libertarian right, who support it on ideological grounds. Nobody treats stamps like that, AFAIK.

Last edited by Craig B; 2nd January 2018 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 11:42 AM   #1372
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
millions of libertarians are still being sucked in by this Ponzi scheme that masquerades as a better alternative to 'fiat' currency". I think that's what's being argued. If that is what happened it is poetic justice.
Oh. Sounds like you're not as caring as I thought. Surprise.

Quote:

The main force we have to protect us from swindlers and assailants is the government, with its repressive and regulatory legal and enforcement powers. In a democracy deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. Libertarians see this as tyranny, and refuse to offer their consent. Not only, therefore, can they not resist swindles designed to negate and usurp the social functions of government - they positively embrace them. They have for example elected an "anti-President" in the USA.
What happens when the swindlers run the monetary system, and the government?

Quote:

Is bitcoin a scam intentionally conceived, and cleverly designed, to exploit this ideological prejudice?
I don't know, what happens? Why don't you tell me? You're putting in a lot of work around here. Are you getting paid?
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Old 2nd January 2018, 12:09 PM   #1373
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Oh. Sounds like you're not as caring as I thought. Surprise.
The only thing surprising is that you think the expression "poetic justice" is an indication of lack of concern. It isn't. It merely indicates that the punishment is deserved and appropriate, not that it mustn't excite sympathy.
Quote:
You're putting in a lot of work around here. Are you getting paid?
Are you?

Last edited by Craig B; 2nd January 2018 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 02:55 AM   #1374
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Btc still trading @ 14 —15 k

Dead cat bounce 2 continues?
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Old 3rd January 2018, 03:33 AM   #1375
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
Btc still trading @ 14 —15 k

Dead cat bounce 2 continues?

Looks like it might have reached its peak and starting to drop. If is is a DCB then the peak should not exceed the previous one.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 03:49 AM   #1376
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
Btc still trading @ 14 —15 k

Dead cat bounce 2 continues?
Looks like it might have reached its peak and starting to drop. If is is a DCB then the peak should not exceed the previous one.
When did TA become a valid tool to analyze the future of bitcoin?
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Old 3rd January 2018, 04:01 AM   #1377
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
When did TA become a valid tool to analyze the future of bitcoin?
Freely traded markets go up for a while then down for a while.
It is pleasing to note bitcoin is a slave to TA.

The reason this time it's different is straightforward,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AzEY6ZqkuE
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Old 3rd January 2018, 04:03 AM   #1378
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I am researching some of the issues about currency, and taking one issue at a time.

Here is a false claim:

Quote:
https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@...itcoin-is-born

The second is even more mind blowing: American dollars are created by debt. In stark contrast, cryptocurrencies are created by work. If there was ever a scam at work in the world of currencies, creating new dollars out of debt would seem pretty high on my list. Mining Bitcoin or curating Steem? Not so much.

When a person buys a house and takes out a loan from the bank, the debt is backed by a physical asset. The house. The bank can ask the Reserve Bank for cash and use the debt/asset. The dollar cash is backed by an asset.

When a bitcoin is created, electricity is used which creates nothing but a number. That is not "work". It is the same as burning down a tree and getting nothing but smoke and carbon dioxide as proof or work.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 04:15 AM   #1379
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Looks like it might have reached its peak and starting to drop. If is is a DCB then the peak should not exceed the previous one.
Last small bounce peaked at $15,803, now around $14,750.

It's holding up quite well, rising from a level of around $13,500, which it held for a day or two. Is this the credit card-funded last gasp, or a do or die holdout by libertarian anarchocapitalists? Or is there a higher peak beyond $20,000 to be attained? Perhaps, but I rule out the fantasy levels of $100,000.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 08:00 AM   #1380
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This whole crypto-currency craze is remarkable. I am seeing articles on how to develop your own currency.

I just checked out Ripple. They decided that they would start with 100 billion coins and kept 20 billions coins for themselves "as a fee".

At the beginning of 2017 the value price was about USD 0.006. On 4 Dec 2017 it took off from a price of 0.23 and has now reached about 2.47.

Wow. Crazy.

People taking REAL money and buying this and that hoping to get rich. It sure is entertaining to watch it.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 09:45 AM   #1381
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I am researching some of the issues about currency, and taking one issue at a time.

Here is a false claim:

Quote:
https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@...itcoin-is-born

The second is even more mind blowing: American dollars are created by debt. In stark contrast, cryptocurrencies are created by work. If there was ever a scam at work in the world of currencies, creating new dollars out of debt would seem pretty high on my list. Mining Bitcoin or curating Steem? Not so much.

When a person buys a house and takes out a loan from the bank, the debt is backed by a physical asset. The house. The bank can ask the Reserve Bank for cash and use the debt/asset. The dollar cash is backed by an asset.

When a bitcoin is created, electricity is used which creates nothing but a number. That is not "work". It is the same as burning down a tree and getting nothing but smoke and carbon dioxide as proof or work.
The claim is not entirely false. It is true that debts must be backed by an asset but it does not have to be a totally physical asset. It could be backed up by somebody else's debt or even just the word of the borrower (think: credit cards).

Fiat currency is ultimately government debt backed up by the liabilities of tax payers.

OTOH crypto currencies are not backed up by anything (except themselves) because they are not debt instruments. They are worth only what somebody is willing to pay for them. They operate as "currencies" in a similar fashion to the way gold and other precious metals used to be currency. The energy used to create crypto currencies is a red herring since this energy is irrelevant to the "value" of a crypto currency.

What I find astounding is the apparently hard core belief the one day all the bitcoin holders will decide that bitcoin is worthless and dump them. It is going to take a lot more than a spontaneous change in public belief about bitcoin to get it off this never ending roller coaster.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 09:48 AM   #1382
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That reminds me, I've been meaning to look into other cryptocurrencies for a while. Back when Bitcoin was peaking for the first time, I made a small list of requirements I'd need to imagine people actually using a currency instead of storing them in their digital socks. Does anyone know of coins that meet them today?

My list:
No "gold rush" - It should not heavily reward the people who first start mining it, and sure as hell shouldn't start with enriching the creators with huge theoretical sums. That's begging for a pump and dump scam. Ideally it'd start with a high difficulty, as if there were already a lot of coins and everyone was already just mining the interest. The idea would be to encourage people to join the mining swarm at any time without them "missing out."
Inflationary - it needs to grow about 10-20% per year. More coins entering with time encourages investment and discourages hoarding.
Scalable - Bitcoin's model is that every transaction has to be confirmed by everyone. Which is inherently unscalable. Imagine half the world's economy using it. No way would that be feasible. No giant block chain, no "self-limiting" transaction fee. I know there's some coins that do this but I don't know the details.
GPU-focused - to discourage ASIC farming. I know there's coins that do this already.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 10:26 AM   #1383
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The claim is not entirely false. It is true that debts must be backed by an asset but it does not have to be a totally physical asset. It could be backed up by somebody else's debt or even just the word of the borrower (think: credit cards).

Fiat currency is ultimately government debt backed up by the liabilities of tax payers.

OTOH crypto currencies are not backed up by anything (except themselves) because they are not debt instruments. They are worth only what somebody is willing to pay for them. They operate as "currencies" in a similar fashion to the way gold and other precious metals used to be currency. The energy used to create crypto currencies is a red herring since this energy is irrelevant to the "value" of a crypto currency.

What I find astounding is the apparently hard core belief the one day all the bitcoin holders will decide that bitcoin is worthless and dump them. It is going to take a lot more than a spontaneous change in public belief about bitcoin to get it off this never ending roller coaster.
Hi ,
I am just wondering if you know of any other crypto coins that look to have good prospects going forward. I have done quite well out of Ripple and Stellar, any insights you have are very welcome
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Old 3rd January 2018, 11:04 AM   #1384
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Existing currencies are backed by nothing but fraud and violence. The assets that the Fed has acquired were purchased via fraud, and the sellers were typically rewarded with 100 cents on the dollar where the assets were worth a fraction of that.

The decentralized nature of bitcoin is a feature, not a bug, to people interested in it. Obviously you are not one of those people.
How the Fed came to acquire it is not within the scope of the issue.

You have now refuted your own claim of fiat money having no source of value to back it.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
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Old 3rd January 2018, 11:31 AM   #1385
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Originally Posted by rayheno View Post
Hi ,
I am just wondering if you know of any other crypto coins that look to have good prospects going forward. I have done quite well out of Ripple and Stellar, any insights you have are very welcome
Hi, and welcome to the forum.

Unfortunately it's no good asking me for tips. I'm a jinx.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 10:56 PM   #1386
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The claim is not entirely false. It is true that debts must be backed by an asset but it does not have to be a totally physical asset. It could be backed up by somebody else's debt or even just the word of the borrower (think: credit cards).
It's not true that debts have to be "backed" by an asset. see unsecured versus secured loans.

Quote:

Fiat currency is ultimately government debt backed up by the liabilities of tax payers.
Fiat currency is not debt, nor is it always conjured ex nihilo in exchange for debt. It could theoretically be created for any reason what-so-ever, or in exchange for anything (not just government bonds).

Quote:

OTOH crypto currencies are not backed up by anything (except themselves) because they are not debt instruments. They are worth only what somebody is willing to pay for them. They operate as "currencies" in a similar fashion to the way gold and other precious metals used to be currency. The energy used to create crypto currencies is a red herring since this energy is irrelevant to the "value" of a crypto currency.
The energy isn't irrelevant to the value, because it represents that which was expended in the proof of work according to the difficulty in order to create scarcity and thus, an important aspect of bitcoin's value. While bitcoin is speculative, the proof-of-work offers the bitcoin speculator a limited guarantee that the supply of the underlying won't be counterfeited or duplicated, unlike fiat currencies.

Quote:

What I find astounding is the apparently hard core belief the one day all the bitcoin holders will decide that bitcoin is worthless and dump them. It is going to take a lot more than a spontaneous change in public belief about bitcoin to get it off this never ending roller coaster.
It could happen if some kind of tail risk manifests itself, such as quantum computers rendering elliptic curve crypto useless, etc... but it seems unlikely for the intermediate term, and there are even fail safe measures in the bitcoin protocol to completely swap out the underlying crypto, as i understand.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 11:01 PM   #1387
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post

My list:
No "gold rush" - It should not heavily reward the people who first start mining it, and sure as hell shouldn't start with enriching the creators with huge theoretical sums. That's begging for a pump and dump scam. Ideally it'd start with a high difficulty, as if there were already a lot of coins and everyone was already just mining the interest. The idea would be to encourage people to join the mining swarm at any time without them "missing out."
While I suppose you could make the mining of new coins very difficult from the beginning, what you can't do is control the amount of fiat money that anyone could potentially bid on such a coin. If the coin had a great deal of utility and was popular, people would front run it in an attempt to profit and there isn't really anything you can do about it.
Quote:

Inflationary - it needs to grow about 10-20% per year. More coins entering with time encourages investment and discourages hoarding.
Lol. Nobody wants inflationary currency, except governments and counterfeiters.

Quote:

Scalable - Bitcoin's model is that every transaction has to be confirmed by everyone. Which is inherently unscalable. Imagine half the world's economy using it. No way would that be feasible. No giant block chain, no "self-limiting" transaction fee. I know there's some coins that do this but I don't know the details.
See lightning network, and the concept of "sidechains".

Quote:

GPU-focused - to discourage ASIC farming. I know there's coins that do this already.
I'm not sure what the point of this is. In fact, the market prices for GPUs have been driven up so far by cryptos that gamers have begun to complain about it. Based on your comments about inflationary currency and GPU mining, I don't think you have a very strong grasp on how market economies work.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 11:04 PM   #1388
Tippit
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
How the Fed came to acquire it is not within the scope of the issue.

You have now refuted your own claim of fiat money having no source of value to back it.
I never said that fiat money is valueless. I said it has no intrinsic value, and that its extrinsic value is based on the petrodollar scam, and the US Military. The value of people who earn and save fiat money is stolen quickly over time, as it is merely another form of regressive taxation (at best) or theft (at worst).
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Old 4th January 2018, 01:22 AM   #1389
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
I never said that fiat money is valueless. I said it has no intrinsic value, and that its extrinsic value is based on the petrodollar scam, and the US Military. The value of people who earn and save fiat money is stolen quickly over time, as it is merely another form of regressive taxation (at best) or theft (at worst).
Why do you call this regressive? Here is s definition
Definition of 'Regressive Tax'. Under this system of taxation, the tax rate diminishes as the taxable amount increases. In other words, there is an inverse relationship between the tax rate and taxable income.
The taxable income here is the sum of currency held at any time by a possessor. The tax rate is the same per pound or dollar for each payer, so that a person with a thousand units pays exactly ten times as much as a person with a hundred units. Both taxpayers pay any the same percentage rate on each unit, regardless of the total they are holding. That doesn't look regressive to me.

Here are related definitions
A regressive taxWP is a tax imposed in such a manner that the tax rate decreases as the amount subject to taxation increases ... if the activity being taxed is more likely to be carried out by the poor and less likely to be carried out by the rich, the tax may be considered regressive.
A flat rate tax on the holders of currency doesn't fulfil these conditions. Holding money is an activity more likely to be carried out by the rich, as the poor tend to expend it on necessaries like food, clothing and shelter as and when they obtain it, and have no surplus to retain as a money hoard.

Last edited by Craig B; 4th January 2018 at 01:35 AM. Reason: Add "related definitions".
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Old 4th January 2018, 01:55 AM   #1390
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
It's not true that debts have to be "backed" by an asset. see unsecured versus secured loans.
I would have thought that "just the word of the borrower" covered that.

Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Fiat currency is not debt, nor is it always conjured ex nihilo in exchange for debt. It could theoretically be created for any reason what-so-ever, or in exchange for anything (not just government bonds).
I was trying to avoid the complication of central banks and bonds and keep to the bottom line. When you issue a note you are normally promising to redeem it for something of value. In the case of government, the "thing of value" is your tax liability.

Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
The energy isn't irrelevant to the value, because it represents that which was expended in the proof of work according to the difficulty in order to create scarcity and thus, an important aspect of bitcoin's value. While bitcoin is speculative, the proof-of-work offers the bitcoin speculator a limited guarantee that the supply of the underlying won't be counterfeited or duplicated, unlike fiat currencies.
The energy required to mine bitcoins depends on the value of bitcoin - not the other way around. Yes, "proof of work" is your guarantee that the block (in the blockchain) that has your transaction is not bogus.

Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
It could happen if some kind of tail risk manifests itself, such as quantum computers rendering elliptic curve crypto useless, etc... but it seems unlikely for the intermediate term, and there are even fail safe measures in the bitcoin protocol to completely swap out the underlying crypto, as i understand.
Like I said, bitcoin holders are not going to spontaneously lose confidence in bitcoin absent some extraordinary event such as you describe.
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Old 4th January 2018, 02:20 AM   #1391
Craig B
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I would have thought that "just the word of the borrower" covered that.
One of the inflationary mechanisms that causes bubbles to swell is that loans to enable speculation may be covered by the value of the speculated object. They are self financing, during the boom phase. In 1929 lenders lent on the security of the price of the shares to be purchased by the borrower.

A borrower might put down $10, borrow $100, thus multiplying his or her available funds tenfold. No problem on condition that prices keep going up; her or his collateral is secure. But if they stop going up ownership becomes a burden as there is current interest on the loan, and no dividend from the asset to offset it. And if the price falls the creditor wants more money to restore the collateral, and sends out a "margin call". If this is not heeded, the speculator is "sold out". That reduces prices even more and so a positive feedback cycle is established, with the explosive results normal for these processes.

As described by JK Galbraith
Prices as they fell ... kept crossing a large volume of stop-loss orders — orders calling for sales whenever a specified price was reached. Brokers had placed many of these orders for their own protection on the securities of customers who had not responded to calls for additional margin. Each of these stop-loss orders tripped more securities into the market and drove prices down farther. Each spasm of liquidation thus insured that another would follow.

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Old 4th January 2018, 02:49 AM   #1392
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Originally Posted by rayheno View Post
Hi ,
I am just wondering if you know of any other crypto coins that look to have good prospects going forward. I have done quite well out of Ripple and Stellar, any insights you have are very welcome
You can follow John mcAffee on Twitter.

He's essentially a paid promotor of cryptos and will recommend new ones.

Mind you: he's probably just getting money from people to pump and dump currencies, but I've read that everything he promotes shoots up in the short term. It's like riding pump-and-dumps within a bubble.

Extremely risky, but if you take profits in much-maligned dollars occasionally, it may make you money.

Reddit has a very active subforum that is very informative. it is also an information bubble filled with true believers. make sure to consume sceptical voices in addition or you will essentially be in a cult.

On youtube I've found two people who are invested in cryptos, competent, yet not wide-eyed idealists:
Crypto Investor
Trader of futures

That last one has recently been making more videos warning people that they shouldn't take out a second mortgage and invest it in Bitcoin. Apparently, he's very spooked by how blindly people believe that this will go to the moon and are literally betting the house.

Personally, I have not invested in cryptos yet. I am interested in ICO's for cool technical products with proven user cases (not just a whitepaper, my 12-year-old daughter can write a whitepaper). But I'm unsure about how they work, so I'm still looking into it.
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Old 4th January 2018, 05:48 AM   #1393
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
(snip)

That last one has recently been making more videos warning people that they shouldn't take out a second mortgage and invest it in Bitcoin. Apparently, he's very spooked by how blindly people believe that this will go to the moon and are literally betting the house.

(snip).

Just heard an hour ago of a man who has taken out a mortgage on his house to buy bitcoin. He made a lot of money initially and is now convinced he can make more.

The downturn of the second DCB seems to have started.

The governments should step in. They should tell people how the schemes work, and the risk they are taking. But it is probably too late for many people.
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Old 4th January 2018, 06:31 AM   #1394
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Just heard an hour ago of a man who has taken out a mortgage on his house to buy bitcoin. He made a lot of money initially and is now convinced he can make more.

The downturn of the second DCB seems to have started.

The governments should step in. They should tell people how the schemes work, and the risk they are taking. But it is probably too late for many people.
Look, I have no problem with people investing in Bitcoin if they can afford to lose money. (same with all investments really).

Some things concern me:
-People with no idea of markets or tech going in with a minimum of understanding.
-People who are absolute believers in the concept.
-The echo chambers talking about the subject where critical voices are shouted down.
-The narrative that "they" want to stop crypto and will lie about it, causing people to disregard warnings from finance, government.
-The idea that some technology superior to blockchain could spring up and replace it quite easily.

I like the idea of investing in and funding a disruptive technology, but people are way too convinced that 'this is it'.
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Old 4th January 2018, 06:36 AM   #1395
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Last night I had a poker game with a few friends. One of them announced he had put 300,000 yen into Bitcoin and Ripple.

Actually, that is not as much money as it may sound, but more than a month's salary for him. I think he is genuinely trying to get rich quick as he will be reaching retirement age in about ten years.

The thing is he is not very savvy at things like this and decided to invest because a mutual friend of ours who likes speculating and gambling had done the same. He said he had sent money to "a guy" who could buy cryptocurrencies and then bought them a few days later ("after the price had risen!"). Since then the price has fallen, and he isn't able to cash out, but apparently can only sell in other cryptocurrencies.

Now, on the one hand, what he hopes for is the price goes up again and ends up more than it was when he went in. In that case he should probably sell and consider himself lucky. Or he can cut his losses and sell now, hoping not to lose too much (although it sounds dodgy that he is unable to take out his cash immediately. Why not? He doesn't seem to know.) Of course, maybe he won't accept anything less than a stratospheric rise, when the other, likelier, alternative to that, is a catastrophic decline.

And if he is doing it, there will be many other people doing it too.
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Old 4th January 2018, 07:38 AM   #1396
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One need look no further than the very terms the enthusiasts use to find the real source of "value" of this currency.

When someone wants to quantify their holdings, some other denominated currency is referred to. That is, after all, the entire purpose of the exercise.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be

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Old 4th January 2018, 08:50 AM   #1397
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
The governments should step in. They should tell people how the schemes work, and the risk they are taking.
What is this silliness? We need the government to "protect" us from bitcoin because there are some stupid people around? That is the most pathetic argument against bitcoin ever.
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Old 4th January 2018, 10:27 AM   #1398
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What is this silliness? We need the government to "protect" us from bitcoin because there are some stupid people around? That is the most pathetic argument against bitcoin ever.

The argument is against the failure of government(s) to regulate. They step in after a crisis they should have seen coming.

Quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Sea_Company

...Walpole supervised the process which removed all 33 of the company directors and stripped them of, on average, 82% of their wealth. The money went to the victims and the stock of the South Sea Company was divided between the Bank of England and the East India Company.

...When Sir Isaac Newton was asked about the continuance of the rising of South Sea stock... He answered 'that he could not calculate the madness of people'." He is also quoted as stating, "I can calculate the movement of the stars, but not the madness of men"
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Old 4th January 2018, 11:08 AM   #1399
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
The argument is against the failure of government(s) to regulate. They step in after a crisis they should have seen coming.
Why should they?
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Old 4th January 2018, 11:18 AM   #1400
Craig B
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why should they?
Should they seek to regulate anything at all? I imagine you think not. Or are you saying they shouldn't step in to clear the mess up after a crisis either?
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