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View Poll Results: Does the soul exist?
Yes 5 6.85%
No 55 75.34%
Don't know 9 12.33%
Planet X make great bikes 4 5.48%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2nd January 2018, 10:41 AM   #1
MikeG
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Does the soul exist? (with proper poll options)

Well?
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Old 2nd January 2018, 10:58 AM   #2
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Smile

Thanks for posting a direct poll on the overall question.

I am led to the idea of my soul from my own experience of self. This is why I found it helpful to make the poll detailing each step of my logic, to which you refer in your phrase "with proper poll options". It helps me see where along the way of my reasoning people agree or disagree.

For example, I started with the idea that "I exist", "I" being the first person subjective. Over 80% of people in my poll as of this moment would say about themselves "I exist" (http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post12132099).

However, respondents are well divided over whether they can understand how the experience of existing and observing the world in the first person subjective can lead one to to sense that he/she is distinguishable from the physical world and his/her physical body.

So as to the statement
"I understand from my own experience that observing the world and one's body can lead a subject to think that he/she has existence distinguishable from his physical body", 14 people (43.75%) were in agreement.

This is why I made the poll in the way that I did - it shows how far in my reasoning people would go with me. Most would agree with the claim of their own existence, but on the forum at the moment they don't tend to be able to understand the next step of the Observer perceiving a distinction between oneself and the world.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 11:24 AM   #3
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You see how easy it is to write a poll which doesn't direct people into areas they don't want to go? Your poll is doing nothing more than reassuring you that you are right (souls exist), despite almost all of the respondents thinking you are wrong. Your logic is crap.

So, your last two polls have been dishonest and functionally useless, but you now have this shining example to give you a clue as to how to approach the next one more honestly and usefully.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 11:33 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You see how easy it is to write a poll which doesn't direct people into areas they don't want to go? Your poll is doing nothing more than reassuring you that you are right (souls exist), despite almost all of the respondents thinking you are wrong. Your logic is crap.

So, your last two polls have been dishonest and functionally useless, but you now have this shining example to give you a clue as to how to approach the next one more honestly and usefully.
Well, you, um, still need to provide a definition for the key term in the question, no? I mean, unless we really are talking about Marvin Gaye & co.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 11:35 AM   #5
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Well one of the reasons it seems such self-evident bunkum is that no-one seems to agree on what a soul actually is in the first place. I'm happy for soul-proponents to act under whatever definition they personally subscribe to when choosing their options in this poll.
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Last edited by MikeG; 2nd January 2018 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 01:44 PM   #6
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Oh, well, in that case: an emphatic yes!
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Old 2nd January 2018, 02:39 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by madurobob View Post
Oh, well, in that case: an emphatic yes!
Sam+Dave prove the point.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 02:53 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Sam+Dave prove the point.
I'm a soul, man!
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Old 2nd January 2018, 03:08 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by madurobob View Post
I'm a soul, man!
I have some ancient vinyl called "What is Soul?" It must contain the answer. Fool me for not playing it for a few decades, when the answer was so close!
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Old 2nd January 2018, 03:19 PM   #10
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I, too, am a soulful man.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 03:19 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I have some ancient vinyl called "What is Soul?" It must contain the answer. Fool me for not playing it for a few decades, when the answer was so close!
Oh, ****, whatever you do, don't play it backwards!
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Old 2nd January 2018, 03:42 PM   #12
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I voted Planet X mainly because I don't really care, but the correct answer is no.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 03:55 PM   #13
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I like Soul with a Capital S
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Old 2nd January 2018, 04:10 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Faydra View Post
I like Soul with a Capital S
Hutch? Cool car.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 04:15 PM   #15
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To those believers in souls. Do you think ghosts and souls are the same?
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Old 2nd January 2018, 04:18 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
To those believers in souls. Do you think ghosts and souls are the same?
And "spirits"?
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Old 2nd January 2018, 04:30 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Faydra View Post
I like Soul with a Capital S
Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Hutch? Cool car.
David Soul? Detective Ken Hutch in Starsky & Hutch, and their wonderful '75 Ford Gran Torino? Cool car!
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Old 2nd January 2018, 04:31 PM   #18
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I would have voted no, but I am a soul while I'm alive and I exist.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:00 PM   #19
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I got soul,
but
I'm not a soldier ...
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:11 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well?
By what definition?
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I would have voted no, but I am a soul while I'm alive and I exist.
If it's defined as something that contains your consciousness and your ego and which continues to exist independently of your body even after death, I don't believe in that.

I answered "don't know" because the older I get the more skeptical I get about people who claim to have it all figured out.

I don't really believe in "reincarnation" for example (although I can't completely rule it out), but sometimes I wonder why even "incarnation" happens. Shouldn't the proper number of lives be zero? If it's one, why not two or more? I.e., if something can happen once, why not more than once?

Also, "I" is a somewhat slippery concept. I sometimes wonder why "I" experience life as this body and not some other. Why am I me and not somebody else? Does that question even make sense? Perhaps not.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 06:56 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You see how easy it is to write a poll which doesn't direct people into areas they don't want to go?
I think that the way I wrote my poll was helpful to bring out associated issues, like whether "I exist". Often, good polls, like those by Zogby, ask numerous associated questions.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 06:58 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by madurobob View Post
"I have some ancient vinyl called "What is Soul?" It must contain the answer. Fool me for not playing it for a few decades, when the answer was so close! "

Oh, ****, whatever you do, don't play it backwards!
Luositaw?
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Old 2nd January 2018, 07:02 PM   #23
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Seoul definitely exists, I've been there. At least it does at the moment, there seem to be a couple of whiny man-children with nukes who may change that.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 07:03 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
To those believers in souls. Do you think ghosts and souls are the same?
I think that in classical philosophy, a distinction was made between spirits and souls. So a person was thought to have a soul, a spirit, and a body. But I don't feel confident in understanding the difference.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 07:05 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Faydra View Post
I like Soul with a Capital S
As do I, and I'm Still Diggin' on James Brown.

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I AGREE
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Old 2nd January 2018, 07:09 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
By what definition?


If it's defined as something that contains your consciousness and your ego and which continues to exist independently of your body even after death, I don't believe in that.
I don't think it's defined as continuing to exist after death, necessarily.
I think some people have the idea that there are souls, but that their survival is dependent on the body's survival.

I know what you mean when you say this:
Quote:

I answered "don't know" because the older I get the more skeptical I get about people who claim to have it all figured out.

I don't really believe in "reincarnation" for example but sometimes I wonder why even "incarnation" happens. Shouldn't the proper number of lives be zero? If it's one, why not two or more? I.e., if something can happen once, why not more than once?

Also, "I" is a somewhat slippery concept. I sometimes wonder why "I" experience life as this body and not some other. Why am I me and not somebody else? Does that question even make sense? Perhaps not.
I raised these questions on my related poll here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=326028

It seems that from a purely materialistic framework, it's hard to explain those phenomena or maybe even acknowledge or prove them. How does one explain the source of the first person subjective state from a purely physical POV?

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Old 2nd January 2018, 07:55 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by rakovsky View Post
However, respondents are well divided over whether they can understand how the experience of existing and observing the world in the first person subjective can lead one to to sense that he/she is distinguishable from the physical world and his/her physical body.

So as to the statement
"I understand from my own experience that observing the world and one's body can lead a subject to think that he/she has existence distinguishable from his physical body", 14 people (43.75%) were in agreement.

This is why I made the poll in the way that I did - it shows how far in my reasoning people would go with me. Most would agree with the claim of their own existence, but on the forum at the moment they don't tend to be able to understand the next step of the Observer perceiving a distinction between oneself and the world.
I ticked this statement in your poll because I do indeed understand how people can be misled in the way stated. Do not assume that those who ticked this option think that the perception described is correct.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 08:20 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I ticked this statement in your poll because I do indeed understand how people can be misled in the way stated. Do not assume that those who ticked this option think that the perception described is correct.

I didn't because of the words "from my own experience". It hasn't happened to me.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 08:28 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Also, "I" is a somewhat slippery concept. I sometimes wonder why "I" experience life as this body and not some other. Why am I me and not somebody else? Does that question even make sense? Perhaps not.
That is like holding an apple in each hand and wondering why is the apple on the left not the apple on the right. It is a fundamental concept of reality that things have distinct existence.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 09:58 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
That is like holding an apple in each hand and wondering why is the apple on the left not the apple on the right. It is a fundamental concept of reality that things have distinct existence.
One can physically trace how the apple on the left got in the left hand, and trace how the apple grew its distinct qualities, which seed the apple came from etc.

But the Self appears different. I doubt it is physically traceable or detectable to anyone but the Observer himself/herself. Can one trace physically how their subjective state of perception of the world followed in their body? Unlike an apple, the Self does not appear to be directly physically observable to others.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 12:26 AM   #31
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No, Even easier the second time.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 01:46 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by rakovsky View Post
One can physically trace how the apple on the left got in the left hand, and trace how the apple grew its distinct qualities, which seed the apple came from etc.

But the Self appears different. I doubt it is physically traceable or detectable to anyone but the Observer himself/herself. Can one trace physically how their subjective state of perception of the world followed in their body? Unlike an apple, the Self does not appear to be directly physically observable to others.
No, wrong. You can always detect the absence of a self in a brain by noting the absence of neural activity. Experiments can easily be set up where the self is switched on or off or put into different modes of operation, where the self reports what's going on, etc. Results of such experiments can be predicted with good reliability by neurologists and psychologists. It is thus almost trivially easy to locate different selves in different bodies, and link those selves to very specific physical processes.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 02:56 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by rakovsky View Post
......But the Self appears different. I doubt it is physically traceable or detectable to anyone but the Observer himself/herself........
You've had to make up another thing to justify your argument for the existence of the soul, also a made-up thing. Without using a circular argument, have fun providing evidence.

Quote:
Can one trace physically how their subjective state of perception of the world followed in their body? Unlike an apple, the Self does not appear to be directly physically observable to others.
You're wrapping yourself round and round in knots. This is just silly. The sense of self is an emergent property of the brain, and its system of sensing the world. Get to grips with that, and purge yourself of the ******** which is warping your thinking on the subject.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 02:59 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
By what definition?........
I've dealt with that:

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well one of the reasons it seems such self-evident bunkum is that no-one seems to agree on what a soul actually is in the first place. I'm happy for soul-proponents to act under whatever definition they personally subscribe to when choosing their options in this poll.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 01:02 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by MikeG
Originally Posted by rakovsky View Post
......But the Self appears different. I doubt it is physically traceable or detectable to anyone but the Observer himself/herself........
You've had to make up another thing to justify your argument for the existence of the soul, also a made-up thing. Without using a circular argument, have fun providing evidence.
It depends entirely on who that "Observer" is.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 01:09 PM   #36
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See, on the other one I had to select the last option, the one for "there's a problem with this". On this poll I just selected 'No'.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 02:06 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by rakovsky View Post
I think that in classical philosophy, a distinction was made between spirits and souls. So a person was thought to have a soul, a spirit, and a body. But I don't feel confident in understanding the difference.

Yes it is very confusing and I can understand those, that would like to simplify the matter making the soul, spirit (or ghost), one entity. This then is the part that survives death and goes to the theme park in the sky, or gets transferred to another body if reincarnation is your thing. The ancient Egyptians called this entity the Ka and thought it could take up residence in a statue of the departed.

If you separate the soul from the spirit it gets a little messy, because the spirits that mediums are so astute at making contact with would be soul-less. Our own Scorpion had a good grip on this stuff, but did conflate souls and spirits and said they resembled the physical body of the person. This became somewhat vague however, when the soul got attached to a new body.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 02:42 PM   #38
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I have a theist friend that claims we're all born with a soul, but we only get a spirit from God if and when we believe. Yet another silly God reward to encourage belief.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 03:02 PM   #39
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I have some ancient vinyl called "What is Soul?" It must contain the answer. Fool me for not playing it for a few decades, when the answer was so close!
Play it backwards for the definitive answer... Bwa Ha Ha!
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Old 3rd January 2018, 03:26 PM   #40
rakovsky
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
"I have some ancient vinyl called "What is Soul?" It must contain the answer. "

Play it backwards for the definitive answer... Bwa Ha Ha!
"lousitaw?"
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